[Richie]

(02-02-2012 09:13 AM)european_lover Wrote:  

I agree that girls in Ukraine and Russia totally expect the man to pay for everything. If not, he is cheap. Unlike in the west, were you will loose status by paying for everything. I still think that Kiev is not particularly easy. And that you have to put a huge amount of cash on the table does not make it better. But the girls are super hot.

I don't care how hot they are. If they are out of reach for a foreign guy I'd be much happier staying in my own country. Being surrounded by beautiful women and not being able to do a damn thing about it is a frustrating place to be. Quality and hooking up ratio is fundamental.

[Luckystar]

(02-02-2012 09:39 AM)Richie Wrote:  

(02-02-2012 09:13 AM)european_lover Wrote:  

I agree that girls in Ukraine and Russia totally expect the man to pay for everything. If not, he is cheap. Unlike in the west, were you will loose status by paying for everything. I still think that Kiev is not particularly easy. And that you have to put a huge amount of cash on the table does not make it better. But the girls are super hot.

I don't care how hot they are. If they are out of reach for a foreign guy I'd be much happier staying in my own country. Being surrounded by beautiful women and not being able to do a damn thing about it is a frustrating place to be. Quality and hooking up ratio is fundamental.

There in lies the extreme highs and lows of being in Ukraine/Russia.

[xmlenigma]

(02-02-2012 07:47 AM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  

This is a good plan.Expenses in Kiev in general are:
1.Dinner for 2 in cental restaurant:40 -50 euro with drinks
2.Date in central cafe for two(girls always order cocktails):15-25 euro
So if you date 3 girls everyday you will spend 100-150 euro on dating expenses
Accommodation costs:50-70 euro for apartment in the centre(important for logistics)
Entrance to high end clubs(where most hot chicks are:10-20 euro per person
Taxi expenses(necessary because clubs are away and marsutka is not an option):10-15 euro per day
For the same things you spend exactly the half in provinces.The difference is that choice of women in province is less.On the other hand they are less demanding and more likely to be impressed by foreigners.

With these kinda prices, you might as well call them over for a nice dinner.. Whip up some delicious Pasta!
OR
In Amsterdam 50 Euro is a lovely lay with a out of town girl who comes down to earn her dime in the red light district and then goes back to be a nice girl.

[Greek kamaki]

Yes,in countries like Russian,Ukraine the distinction between girlfriends,sponsorettes is quite blurred.There is usually no clear distinction except the case you are considered future groom for the girl.

[Hooligan Harry]

Its not blurred.

You guys all want slim, feminine, traditional women but you dont want to be the traditional guy.

If you want/expect women to pay their way, stay in the west where its part of the super awesome culture now. You can date obese whales who pitch up in flat soled shoes and dont own a single dress. You can talk about Kim Kardashian and her career all night long safe in the knowledge that you will save a couple of bucks when she picks up half the check.

[Brian]

(02-04-2012 10:39 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

Its not blurred.

You guys all want slim, feminine, traditional women but you dont want to be the traditional guy.

If you want/expect women to pay their way, stay in the west where its part of the super awesome culture now. You can date obese whales who pitch up in flat soled shoes and dont own a single dress. You can talk about Kim Kardashian and her career all night long safe in the knowledge that you will save a couple of bucks when she picks up half the check.

Yep. You cant have it both ways. Want a feminine woman? Fine, be a masculine male. Pay the tab, pay the mortgage, put food on the table, and be protective of her. Fair is fair.

[thegmanifesto]

(02-04-2012 10:39 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

Its not blurred.

You guys all want slim, feminine, traditional women but you dont want to be the traditional guy.

If you want/expect women to pay their way, stay in the west where its part of the super awesome culture now. You can date obese whales who pitch up in flat soled shoes and dont own a single dress. You can talk about Kim Kardashian and her career all night long safe in the knowledge that you will save a couple of bucks when she picks up half the check.

Good point.

I have always wondered how pua guys "square" this in their minds.

Like you said, they want traditional women, and traditional relationships yet act like the "woman" in these relationships.

Any insight?

[pitt]

(02-04-2012 10:46 PM)Brian Wrote:  

(02-04-2012 10:39 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

Its not blurred.

You guys all want slim, feminine, traditional women but you dont want to be the traditional guy.

If you want/expect women to pay their way, stay in the west where its part of the super awesome culture now. You can date obese whales who pitch up in flat soled shoes and dont own a single dress. You can talk about Kim Kardashian and her career all night long safe in the knowledge that you will save a couple of bucks when she picks up half the check.

Yep. You cant have it both ways. Want a feminine woman? Fine, be a masculine male. Pay the tab, pay the mortgage, put food on the table, and be protective of her. Fair is fair.

I think we all understood that HH meant paying for dinners when you take a girl out, he didnt mean paying mortgage or put food on her table. Is this really that much of big deal to pay for a dinner? I really want to understand you guys - does it makes you feel stupid when you pay for a date? Is it the money that is a big deal? Is the not being congruent with game? Which one is it?

[Deluge]

(02-04-2012 10:46 PM)Brian Wrote:  

(02-04-2012 10:39 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

Its not blurred.

You guys all want slim, feminine, traditional women but you dont want to be the traditional guy.

If you want/expect women to pay their way, stay in the west where its part of the super awesome culture now. You can date obese whales who pitch up in flat soled shoes and dont own a single dress. You can talk about Kim Kardashian and her career all night long safe in the knowledge that you will save a couple of bucks when she picks up half the check.

Yep. You cant have it both ways. Want a feminine woman? Fine, be a masculine male. Pay the tab, pay the mortgage, put food on the table, and be protective of her. Fair is fair.

Just because you're sleeping with a traditional feminine woman doesn't mean you should buy a house together (and probably marry her) dude. Your logic there leaves a lot to be desired, either that or you need to use better analogies. Finding a girl worthy of being a 50's housewife doesn't mean you should settle down and start acting like a 50's husband.

[Brian]

(02-04-2012 10:52 PM)pitt Wrote:  

(02-04-2012 10:46 PM)Brian Wrote:  

(02-04-2012 10:39 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

Its not blurred.

You guys all want slim, feminine, traditional women but you dont want to be the traditional guy.

If you want/expect women to pay their way, stay in the west where its part of the super awesome culture now. You can date obese whales who pitch up in flat soled shoes and dont own a single dress. You can talk about Kim Kardashian and her career all night long safe in the knowledge that you will save a couple of bucks when she picks up half the check.

Yep. You cant have it both ways. Want a feminine woman? Fine, be a masculine male. Pay the tab, pay the mortgage, put food on the table, and be protective of her. Fair is fair.

I think we all understood that HH meant paying for dinners when you take a girl out, he didnt mean paying mortgage or put food on her table. Is this really that much of big deal to pay for a dinner? I really want to understand you guys - does it makes you feel stupid when you pay for a date? Is it the money that is a big deal? Is the not being congruent with game? Which one is it?

I never understood this either. I cant imagine being on a first date w/a girl I like, having the bill come, and then asking her for her half. If she's not worth spending the money dont invite her out. And if you are taking girls you dont know very well to expensive dinners you deserve to get whacked w/a high tab.

[pitt]

(02-04-2012 11:20 PM)Brian Wrote:  

(02-04-2012 10:52 PM)pitt Wrote:  

(02-04-2012 10:46 PM)Brian Wrote:  

(02-04-2012 10:39 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

Its not blurred.

You guys all want slim, feminine, traditional women but you dont want to be the traditional guy.

If you want/expect women to pay their way, stay in the west where its part of the super awesome culture now. You can date obese whales who pitch up in flat soled shoes and dont own a single dress. You can talk about Kim Kardashian and her career all night long safe in the knowledge that you will save a couple of bucks when she picks up half the check.

Yep. You cant have it both ways. Want a feminine woman? Fine, be a masculine male. Pay the tab, pay the mortgage, put food on the table, and be protective of her. Fair is fair.

I think we all understood that HH meant paying for dinners when you take a girl out, he didnt mean paying mortgage or put food on her table. Is this really that much of big deal to pay for a dinner? I really want to understand you guys - does it makes you feel stupid when you pay for a date? Is it the money that is a big deal? Is the not being congruent with game? Which one is it?

I never understood this either. I cant imagine being on a first date w/a girl I like, having the bill come, and then asking her for her half. If she's not worth spending the money dont invite her out. And if you are taking girls you dont know very well to expensive dinners you deserve to get whacked w/a high tab.

hmm?

I dont get you, i thought you were against guys that take out women to dates. I probably misunderstood you.

[Hotwheels]

(02-04-2012 10:58 PM)P Dog Wrote:  

(02-04-2012 10:46 PM)Brian Wrote:  

(02-04-2012 10:39 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

Its not blurred.

You guys all want slim, feminine, traditional women but you dont want to be the traditional guy.

If you want/expect women to pay their way, stay in the west where its part of the super awesome culture now. You can date obese whales who pitch up in flat soled shoes and dont own a single dress. You can talk about Kim Kardashian and her career all night long safe in the knowledge that you will save a couple of bucks when she picks up half the check.

Yep. You cant have it both ways. Want a feminine woman? Fine, be a masculine male. Pay the tab, pay the mortgage, put food on the table, and be protective of her. Fair is fair.

Just because you're sleeping with a traditional feminine woman doesn't mean you should buy a house together (and probably marry her) dude. Your logic there leaves a lot to be desired, either that or you need to use better analogies. Finding a girl worthy of being a 50's housewife doesn't mean you should settle down and start acting like a 50's husband.

A 50's husband didn't put up with shit like they do today.

And believe it or not, there are guys out there that don't want to chase pussy for the rest of their lives. If I was looking to settle down it would be with a traditional woman.

Which is very rare here in the US but still available in other parts of the world.

[Deluge]

(02-05-2012 12:19 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

A 50's husband didn't put up with shit like they do today.

You're right, they wouldn't have and neither would have the entire society at the time. Different legislation, lack of the pill and large scale societal slut shaming gave those "betas" a guarantee of being able to settle down with and hold onto innocent, slim feminine women in the white picket fence of the new suburbia. The days of Levittown and the G.I Bill are long since over. May as well enjoy the current climate for all it's worth.

[Hotwheels]

P Dog, let me fill you in on something. Neither of my grandfathers were betas. I doubt most guys back then were. Men knew their place, they led,and women definitely knew there's, they followed. It was an entirely different society back then but women didn't like wishy washy men and few of them were.

Calling men of the 50's "betas" is laughable and further weakens the alpha/beta arguement.

[Brian]

(02-05-2012 01:17 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

P Dog, let me fill you in on something. Neither of my grandfathers were betas. I doubt most guys back then were. Men knew their place, they led,and women definitely knew there's, they followed. It was an entirely different society back then but women didn't like wishy washy men and few of them were.

Calling men of the 50's "betas" is laughable and further weakens the alpha/beta arguement.

Back then marriage actually had benefits for a man. He could work all day, come home, have a nice house, dinner, and only spend a couple hours w/his kids before putting them to bed. His wife was thin, sexy, and attractive, and knew if she cheated on him she would be on the street w/o modern day divorce laws giving her the house, kids, and half his income. they probably got married at 23, so she didnt spend her 20's riding cocks and he got to enjoy her prime years. she didnt have an iphone, wasnt on twitter, and only had 4 tv stations. she would have thought the kardashians were raging whores, not american female heroes. men provided, women raised the kids, acted and dressed like women, and everyone was happy. there are still places where that relationship exists, and it sounds like Ukraine is one of them.

[Deluge]

(02-05-2012 01:17 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

P Dog, let me fill you in on something. Neither of my grandfathers were betas. I doubt most guys back then were. Men knew their place, they led,and women definitely knew there's, they followed. It was an entirely different society back then but women didn't like wishy washy men and few of them were.

Calling men of the 50's "betas" is laughable and further weakens the alpha/beta argument.

Corrected your spelling there.

I'm not saying ALL of them were "beta" but certainly way less than today. The thing was back then the Beta Provider type game actually worked. Today that shit doesn't. Don't be absurd, if you think all of or even most men in the 50's where charismatic and confident "alpha" males who didn't give a fuck what women thought of them and didn't develop crushing pathetic oneitises then you're living in fantasy land.

And yeah Brian is spot on, but over time Westernization will destroy it in EE as well.

[Hooligan Harry]

(02-04-2012 10:48 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(02-04-2012 10:39 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

Its not blurred.

You guys all want slim, feminine, traditional women but you dont want to be the traditional guy.

If you want/expect women to pay their way, stay in the west where its part of the super awesome culture now. You can date obese whales who pitch up in flat soled shoes and dont own a single dress. You can talk about Kim Kardashian and her career all night long safe in the knowledge that you will save a couple of bucks when she picks up half the check.

Good point.

I have always wondered how pua guys "square" this in their minds.

Like you said, they want traditional women, and traditional relationships yet act like the "woman" in these relationships.

Any insight?

Yeah, I think guys completely misunderstand "game theory" and treat this stuff like its some sort of mathematical equation.

Buying women shit in an effort to impress them is ass kissing, be it 1950 or 2012. Throwing money at women to impress is a sign of weakness and supplication and its one of the most typical ways men tend to pedastalise women. The problem is that many men think that means that in every single social interaction they need to be a total tight arse or be seen as weak, supplicating pussies.

If blokes dont want traditional woman and want the independent, career focussed girl power go getter that will split the check, they need stay home. Or spend their time in feminised countries like the UK, Australia or the Scandinavian countries where this is typical of the women.

If they want traditional women, they need to be traditional men. Men are providers in traditional relationships. If men are not prepared to be the traditional guy, they need to alpha it up in a western, feminised country where being a cheap charlie wont hurt them. That shit wont cut it in a place like Russia or Ukraine.

I dunno, I guess I get irritated about the whole thing sometimes. We have a ton of guys here who hate feminised cunts, but when they run into traditional women they call them gold digging whores.

Ukraine, Russia and the rest of EE are not cheap and I feel for the guys who have to travel on a strict budget. Their experience is going to be totally different for guys who can drop a bit of money.

[Hotwheels]

<edit> HH posted while I was typing so this was responding to Pdog.

Thank you so much for catching the spelling error.

What I was getting at is guys back then didn't have to play all these "alpha" games. And that's what you are doing when you feign disinterest in a broad you in fact like. Playing a game. Sure some "game" was played back then but not to the extent it is today because it wasn't necessary.

I'll use myself as an example. In all honesty, I would be very happy to live a 50's style marriage where I am the provider and also the one controlling the marriage. However, I fully understand that is not a financially wise path to take in today's legal environment. I have been in many long term relationships, including live in's where marriage was discussed, and every time I backed away as I simply didn't feel it would work through to the end. Partly because I like some variety and I am not going to to give up half or more of my shit just just because I felt the need to bust a nut in some strange. I actually tell women this when they ask why I've never been married at 42. Surprisingly, a lot of them see me as a challenge which I find comical.

Society was a lot different back then and before. The way I see it at one time a woman's job/goal was to satisfy and please her husband while taking care of the home and children. Mistresses were not unheard of. Over the last couple generations this has flipped, where women expect the men to satisfy and please her. Or else.

I'm really amazed you have so much first hand knowledge of relation dynamics and marriage at the young age of 17. Keep reading.

[Deluge]

Dirty sarcasm won't get you anywhere buddy. And being overly confident isn't a game. I think you've got your idea of what most of us here consider Alpha out of wack.

[Hotwheels]

(02-05-2012 02:45 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

Dirty sarcasm won't get you anywhere buddy. And being overly confident isn't a game. I think you've got your idea of what most of us here consider Alpha out of wack.

Hey pal, don't call me buddy...

Seriously, I've been in and out of the "pick up community" for over 10 years and have read a large portion of this forum before ever making a post so I have a good idea of what most guys think is "alpha".

And when one adds "overly" to confident that does in fact come across as fake or game as it tells me someone is trying to hide something. ie-more confident than one should be, versus being supremely confident for instance.

I'm not busting your balls as I admire your enthusiasm but some more first hand knowledge and experience will go a lot farther than book learning when you are trying to tell guys how it is.

[Deluge]

Then don't call me "pal". Look if you want to have a little catfight then have the maturity to PM me and not hijack the thread. Also, you underestimate the extent to which I approach. Don't assume I don't know anything because I'm young. I hate it when people assume all I do is read on game just because I'm young, like they assume I don't go out and practice. How much approaching have you done this week?

Also, by "overly confident" I meant being more confident then what is considered politically correct, I should have been more precise there.

And no, nobody here has ever equated alpha/beta to game playing. Even guys who disagree with it eg. Vicious for example.

If you want to keep arguing then act the age you claim to be (and I don't mean "man up") and PM me. Otherwise I'm off.

[Marco]

I had good experience in 2nd tier city in Ukraine: Kherson (check my data sheet in the search), most of the girls are not gold diggers at all but surely they expect you pay for them, the thing is if you pay for them and yourself in bar/restaurant etc. it is still cheaper than paying for yourself only in western country. Costs are much much cheaper than Kiev.

If you have more time I will go for 2nd tier cities as nicer girls there which you can attract, though you need invest some time to score.

[birth]

Haha, some of you guys act like peasants. What's wrong with slicing out a couple of bucks for a drink or dinner? It's only a big deal if you make a big deal out of it. I bring a lot of value to the table. If I pick her up in my quite expensive car and I don't pay for the dinner or drinks, its completely incongruent. Even more so if some of you have in fact stepped up on your suit game.

Routine: Normally I just excuse myself to go to the bathroom and pay the bill at the counter while she's waiting. Go back to table, tell her lets go. She then normally will say that we still have to pay the bill, which I then counter with something like.. "let's just run away together and never come back then... nah I already paid, lets go"

If you're some broke dude travelling on a backpack budget, well.. then focus on student parties or whatever.

The quality of conversation and sex that you have with these women is just too good to be cheap when it comes to some (already fucking cheap compared to western prices) dinner.

You want a girl that worships you and is feminine.. well.. fucking do your part too.

[european_lover]

I don’t have a problem with paying for her dinner, because it is still somehow expected. And as long you don’t make a bid deal out of it, it is not beta at all.

But over the long run I would actually prefer a confident girl that also earns her own cash and does not depend on me for paying her bills. I don’t go to Russia cause I look for traditional women. I go there to find hot girls.

And I don’t like it when a woman gives me the feeling that the fact that I am paying her dinner or other stuff is more important than me. And this happens in some countries. And when a Russian girl chooses the super expensive restaurant cause she could never afford it herself, and gets a kick out of it, and then nothing is happening with her, I feel used. And therefore, I try to avoid to pay for her stuff before something happened.

Even worse, the girls in Kiev, that go your table, start talking to you, order drinks, and then leave. You have to pay her bill without ever wanting to. If it would not have been for my friends, I would have fallen for their trick.

[K-man]

(02-05-2012 01:28 AM)Brian Wrote:  

men provided, women raised the kids, acted and dressed like women, and everyone was happy. there are still places where that relationship exists, and it sounds like Ukraine is one of them.

Hate to break it to you man, but there are no places like that anymore. Not in Ukraine, not in EE - Colombia maybe?
MTV and reality shows are on satellite TV in every village now, and kids are on Facebook from age 10. McDonalds is posting record growth, and so are Mattel, Disney, etc.
I myself live in EE, and my wife chose to go to college and work in some cubicle so she can have spending money for the mall. When I suggested I give her more cash so she can focus on the family, kid, housework - she said she'd feel better if she earned it herself. So she goes to work for DA MAN while I pay a maid to do the weekly housecleaning.
I can't say I'm unhappy because she still cooks, does laundry, cares for the kid, etc. but it's definitely not the 50's lifestyle you glamorize. None of the people I know here are living that lifestyle.