[AnonymousBosch]

(05-23-2015 06:34 AM)aphelion Wrote:  

If Rollo had Roosh pegged as a PUA a long time ago, and his opinion of Roosh hasn't closely tracked the evolution of Roosh's psychology, then of course Rollo's going to look at Roosh as being an opportunistic fox in the henhouse. I don't see Roosh's shift in focus from writing Bang guides to writing about masculinity because I've followed Roosh's writing closely enough over the years in order to see that it wasn't a tectonic shift for him and that he's been leaning this way for years.

I came here because I found Roosh's writing fascinating, and noticed the ongoing evolution of a mind always looking for answers and refining his theories.

This is the natural process of aging into a healthy adult. The ideas and comforts of certain periods in our life should eventually be challenged, refined, strengthened or abandoned.

Culture now encouraging 'freezing' our thoughts at a particular time so we have no personal growth. Cougars! 50 is the new 30! Stay young forever. 20-something's watching 'Adventure Time' and going watching kid's cartoons filled with snarky, pop culture references. 40 year old men watching movies about giant robots and superhero team ups.

To illustrate how normalised immaturity has become, here's something from my childhood:

I was 15, the 80's 'Transformers' movie came out, and an older mate wanted to go see it, and asked me to go with him.

My sister: "God, he's way too old for that."

My stepfather: "That's a film for children."

My mother: "He's a very immature guy. You really need to find friends who act their age."

My friend: "He's such a loser. All the girls at school hate him. This is why we don't like being seen with him and you need to drop him as a mate."

Nowadays, 40 year old guys will talk about a Transformers movie around the water cooler, and I feel like the only adult alive.

There are very few writers in popular culture who seem to be maturing as they write, let alone even bothering to be asking questions about their own lives. I think of the majority of writers as being like this dweeb. (Ridiculously, there's a guy in the comments who cribbed word-for-word my reaction about this video from the forum).

My Facebook feed is a procession of educated, degreed 30, 40 and 50 year olds with the concerns and critical thinking ability of middle schoolers.

In all the noise, I stumble across Roosh, and recognise the questioning, developing mind of a traditionally-healthy adult male. Through him, I'm lead to Quintus, and recognise the same.

These aren't boys, like Gethard. These are Men, writing for Men, and as such, they're both seeking, analysing, learning and refining thought, and, as such, I expect their views, theories and beliefs to deepen with life experience, and for some things they valued before to become worthless to them. Even more so, I recognise that this is right and healthy.

If this includes abandoning nomenclature associated with a 16-year-old movie made by a transitioning female to male transsexual, I hardly see why this should cause offense or be any kind of issue.

Reading 'The Red Pill' introduction from Reddit's sidebar, from my every experience as a 44-year-old man:

The idea that Feminism is just a 'sexual strategy' for women and that it's about 'equal rights' and that TRP support it shows a complete ignorance of social, historical and psychological reality. Saying 'men are responsible for their own happiness' in a culture that is in the process of methodically Unpersoning straight white men is contemptible.

It's not just about 'Mastering Game' and sexual success with women. I lost count of my notches somewhere in the early 30's, because it ceased to matter to my ego. Based on the average lifetime partner studies I keep seeing, I'm an extreme outlier.

So, I'd ask the Red Pill 'Experts' and 'Moderators': why isn't my happiness 'maximised'? Why am I still questioning and seeking and tiring of the game itself, something Roosh has spoken about, when I still having a raging sex drive?

If it's about physical fitness, I got into the shape of my life during filming last year. At my age, I recognise that will probably be peak fitness, I probably can't improve from here - my knees are shot, my eyes are requiring glasses - and I accept that aging is a normal and healthy part of life, so am not worried about this. So, again, why wasn't my happiness 'maximised'?

We live in a culture where seemingly-everything is permitted, and I've operated with my own moral-compass for 20 something years. So, why isn't my happiness 'maximised'? Why am I searching for answers to questions that seem greater than my physical self? Why am I questioning spiritual beliefs?

Why isn't everyone else's happiness maximised? Why does current society barely-resemble the polite, pleasant one of my youth, where people would interact on the street, where there was a sense of community, where children were trusted to move about unsupervised, and everyone wasn't paranoid about every stranger and vicious towards anyone who they think is showing them up by being 'better' than them? Why does social media default to detached snarky outrage? It's almost like some design lead us to mistrust everyone else but ourselves to the degree we can only rage at each other, making communication impossible? Whatever could that design be?

Roosh and Quintus are offering a solid, considered philosophy that addresses these deeper questions with military precision. Whilst this broader, politicised concept might seem irrelevant to you at this point in time if you're young and knee-deep in poon, eventually you will either grow tired of the game, trust the wrong plate and get divorce-raped, or those plotting against your happiness will criminalise basic game concepts.

It's a level of serious thought far beyond what any Random Reddit Moderator can offer a men.

[Aurini]

Quote: AnonymousBosch's entire post.

The refusal to age gracefully is all around us. 'Men' dressing like Bart Simpson. The Internet Reviewers who keep making videos snarking about media from their childhood well into their 30s. 40 year olds who are listless and irresponsible, waiting for life to be handed to them on a silver platter. Burned-out PUAs speaking pseudo-gangster club smack when they should have grown out of it. Boys looking for their mommies. Pop culture addicts.

It's bad enough that women spend their 20s acting like teenagers, but that's just biology; a woman's brain doesn't hit neurological maturity until the pregnancy hormones kick in. With men there's no excuse. Sure, there's less opportunity for men - Aaron Clarey's "Nobody will take you seriously until you're thirty-five," comes to mind - so you might as well enjoy this extended childhood that's forced upon us. But the men here on the forum - hedonists and degenerates the lot of us - have nonetheless approached this empty culture in a controlled, and directed manner. Life in the bonobo tribe might be ultimately about self gratification, but we've all been working on our secret projects on the side. Your average guy even fails as a hedonist; either he's bouncing directionlessly between whatever women will have him, or he's following the old script without asking where it's going.

Finding men of the calibre this forum attracts in the real world is extremely difficult. Even something as straight forward as maintaining your car or repairing your home is beyond most of them. This is part of the reason I'm just not attracted to any movements aiming to fight on behalf of the straight white male - most of them don't deserve to be fought for.

Those who want truth, will find it; a strong philosophy is the cure. The rest are the chaff which, by their own choosing, will be separated from the wheat.

Free will's a bitch, ain't she?

[Kid Strangelove]

This dust up is stupid, especially when you look at its sources:

/r/TheRedPill came as a byproduct of the /r/seduction and /r/mensrights subreddits. "Dark Triad" game talk was frowned upon in /r/seduction, so it moved to /r/theredpill. Some mens rights guys wanted to do more than complain... but still wanted to complain, so they moved to /r/theredpill where they can complain AND talk about game.

That subreddit evolved and appeared because there was a need for it and people wanted something different, so it was born. And now they're hating on Roosh for trying to do the same exact thing - combine some concepts and ideas into something new that can help men.

Honestly, in my eyes, this is a scenario where every man wins. There are now more places for men to "unplug" and try to better themselves.

As for the aversion to commercialism - let's be honest - it's understandable. There has been a very long time where PUA scammers have been ripping people off. $3,000 for a weekend bootcamp, hundreds of dollars on DVDs. And even if you didnt waste your money on that stuff - you wasted your time. Who here had a gigs of PUA material on their computer? I know i did, I'm not proud of that.

But that's why I have respect for Roosh, and Rollo, and Matt Forney, and other guys that have put paid material out there - they give so much away for free - that when you pay something, you already know what you are getting, and that it's gonna be good. The era of the PUA internet marketer is over. People have legit followings now.

But yeah, good luck to you Roosh, I wish you nothing but the best and hope to be healthy enough to see you in NYC

As for the TRP guys lurking here, good luck with Chairman Pao

[CaptainKeith]

I am new to the forum, but have been a lurker for over 3 years now. I just wanted to share some thoughts, as well as give appreciation where it is due.

Just over 2 years ago and at age 34 I was a miserable shell of a man-child and could not for many years understand why my thoughts, life, and success with women felt so fucked up. I knew something was missing but had no idea what it was.

I then ran across an audio book by David DeAngelo. It started me out on my path to filling in voids and sent me down the manosphere rabbit hole to where I came to the works of Roosh and Heartiste. Over the course of a year I came to understand that being raised by an emasculated step-father (who was still a good man), and a bitch of a mother had left me without the tools I needed to succeed in different arenas of life.

I was always a good looking guy, personable, but always a failure with women and life pursuits. This community has changed all of that. This community and Roosh have given me the tools to succeed at life and with women, and I literally owe my manhood to people like Roosh, Heartiste, Good Looking Loser, DeAngelo, and many more.

Fast forward 3 years and I now own a successful business, have the balls to talk to women, and even though I just got out of a relationship with a girl (stripper), it was the best relationship I have ever had. At this point I have been with over 100 women, but now understand how to keep them around or reject their bullshit.

What I am meaning to get at here, is that the men bashing each other in this community still have some growing to do in my opinion. We are each going to get something different from the community, and have every right to reject what doesn't work for us. I am at the point in my "game" phase that fucking a different girl every night does not work for me anymore. I prefer the positive, healing energy of a quality woman, and also like the role of being a protector. (Don't get me wrong, I love smashing new ass, but it's just different now). So some of the material I ignore or pass over in search of what will work for me.

Someone mentioned on the bashing forum at Reddit that Roosh is trying to be a guru… Well, to me, Roosh is a fucking guru. I am happily paying $99 for a 4 hour conference, and probably going to spend anywhere from $500-1000 on flights, hotels, and a night or two of fun.

In terms of Roosh being a douche or the idea of selling out for monetization- so fucking what? I am happy that he has the capacity to make money at what he has done for me and countless other people. It's fucking priceless to me.

Roosh, you have every right to protect your ideas and your turf, but it honestly makes no fucking difference what any immature person has to say on any forum regarding your business. There is no need for you to stoop to any level lower than what you are trying to achieve, or the evolution of your manhood. Don't bother with it.

We're all here to develop into better men and I don't see any point in bitching about who coined what term, what pill fucking does what, or any of the other bullshit. We all have swinging dicks between our legs (mine is obviously larger) and we should all act like it as our society crumbles around us.

A million thanks Roosh, and I am looking forward to my NYC trip.

“Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

[storm]

Reddit only knows one thing: identity politics.

[Aurini]

No Ma'am - the site that coined the term MGTOW in the first place - has scrubbed all reference to it in light of the nonsense that migtown has become. XD

Great site, by the way; the authors aren't around much anymore, since they actually went their own way (presumably on motorcycles), but they're good enough to still maintain it.

H/T Matt Forney

[N°6]

Someone on this forum needs to write a dispassionate and unbiased thread about the precise differences between there various 'manosphere' philosophies. Its beginning to look like the Protestant denominations - countless of them which probably agree on 95% of doctrine between them.

[PainPositive]

I think more than money you want a legacy to leave behind.

Even if Neomasculinity is not the end all it is a necessity in the evolution of red pill and other
groups that have limits and are less inclusive. The room for a higher power with attract millions of young nice guy Christian men who couldn't completely identify with other groups.

Roosh, your intentions are pure and you have never been a money grubber. More than anything you want credit for your work. There is no ill will in that.

[PainPositive]

Interesting note. As taking the red pill was the start of the movie in the Matrix and an awakening Neo was the end game.

Red Pill was the start of a new way of thinking for men and NEOmasculinity is what will take us to a new era. #teamNeo

[badscientist]

(05-24-2015 04:04 AM)PainPositive Wrote:  

Interesting note. As taking the red pill was the start of the movie in the Matrix and an awakening Neo was the end game.

Red Pill was the start of a new way of thinking for men and NEOmasculinity is what will take us to a new era. #teamNeo

Haha Roosh is a clever man, I'm sure he knew about this connection. Good find!

[Swooper]

Roosh could've made way more money trying to fleece men at high price bootcamps and doing personal coaching. Instead he writes supremely cheap books full of great info and gives out value freely to all on his blog and this forum. Those say he is doing what he does for pure financial motives are simply juvenile and misguided. If this is what the 'redpill movement' has become, I will also no longer care to pay attention to them.

It is unfortunate overall. As men, we are supposed to work together to overcome our foes. Instead inner division has taken place and we are now a scattered 'sphere'. Hopefully Neomasculinity will be the banner of the new era of men. Roosh, know that we stand with you.

[Libertas]

(05-23-2015 02:47 PM)Apollo Wrote:  

Game speaks multitudes about the behaviors required for men to attract women. A topic we spoke ad infintum on this forum about, and one that is ingrained in the psyche of all TRP members, is about holding traits in alignment with the Dark Triad. (narcissism, psychopathy, and machiavellianism) By demonstrating these traits at large, one should be able to secure a multitude of pussy because these were the traits that women were evolutionary bred to select because they signal dominance in the human male hierarchy.

However, it doesn't take a genius to realize that these are not traits that one would necessarily want to hold up in esteem in our society. Among your own friends, would you value Dark Triad traits in a close friend or would you prefer a one who is honest and forth-coming, loyal, resourceful, and who genuinely cares about your endeavors (that is, he has at least a shred of empathy)

Personally, I've always been skeptical of this "Dark Triad" stuff. I have no doubt that these behaviors are at root attractive, but I've tended to believe it puts the cart before the horse - that the men women are attracted to tend to have some of these traits, not that these traits are inherently attractive, and those men tend to have these traits because they are self-confident, believe what they're doing is right, and ultimately are winners or are likely to become winners.

YouSoWould talked a while ago that a lot of guys simply try to pretend they have these traits, and it's painfully obvious that they don't, and it comes across as entirely inauthentic and insecure, and is thus repulsive. I also notice that guys who you absolutely know for a fact are out there and are not keyboard jockeys like Good Looking Loser and many guys on this forum, as well as Roosh himself, don't really mention "Dark Triad" stuff. Ultimately I think they see it the way I do - that you'll get laid based on your looks, lifestyle, masculinity, leadership/dominance, knowing what girls to look for, and ability to escalate - not necessarily because you have "Dark Triad" traits.

I personally see this "Dark Triad" stuff as more mental masturbation that happens so much in this community. I'm pretty sure guys that talk at length about it are endless theoreticians and don't talk to girls. In other words, these are the guys we don't want in building a new framework, a new republic.

I've never worried about that stuff, I just go out, be my best, continually try to get better, and talk to girls.

Edit: Also with regards to legacy as mentioned above, I have a lot of thoughts about that, and in my opinion it's the backbone to being a good man, but that needs its own post.

[badscientist]

(05-24-2015 07:54 AM)Libertas Wrote:  

I personally see this "Dark Triad" stuff as more mental masturbation that happens so much in this community. I'm pretty sure guys that talk at length about it are endless theoreticians and don't talk to girls. In other words, these are the guys we don't want in building a new framework, a new republic.

I've read your work on ROK and you're clearly an intelligent guy. So I don't want to undermine what you just said by rehashing stuff I picked up elsewhere but if you want to explore the validity of Dark Triad search PubMed and check out The Art of Seduction and The 48 Laws of Power both by Robert Greene (a renowned Machiavelli expert).

Roosh has written about stoicism which is the non-heridetary version of psychopathy i.e. a version of the particular Dark Triad trait which can be learned if one does not possess the genes for subclinical levels of psychopathy.

Just as Game, politics, Red Pill truths and spirituality are all important parts of neomasculinity, the Dark Triad traits are also a very powerful tool for achieving success in the sexual and economic marketplace when used correctly.

[Libertas]

badscientist, I have read The 48 Laws of Power twice now and it is a book I have recommended, particularly to new guys to this corner of the internet.

As I have said, I have no doubt that those traits are at their root attractive, I just think guys worry about it too much instead of developing themselves physically, mentally, and socially. Guys get too caught up in the theory and not enough doing. Here is the YouSoWould post for reference:

https://yousowould.wordpress.com/2014/08/30/dark-triad/

For what it's worth, I took the Dark Triad test in the end of that post again:

http://personality-testing.info/tests/SD3.php

Narcissism: 2.9 (57th percentile)
Machiavellianism: 3.7 (92nd percentile)
Psychopathy: 2.1 (23rd percentile)

The Machiavellianism part in particular doesn't especially surprise me. I think Dark Triad type traits are natural in some ways to NT types. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of other guys on this forum are just naturally high in some of these traits, like I seem to be. It's not surprising that in some ways I was attracted to this place because a lot of guys seemed to be just like me (I have an upcoming post about that and this entire affair).

One joke a friend of mine mentioned to me a while ago - a unicorn INTJ female, was that she was laughing at "how NTJ the 48 Laws of Power are. It's not surprising that an ENTJ and an INTJ would like this book."

[badscientist]

(05-24-2015 09:51 AM)Libertas Wrote:  

As I have said, I have no doubt that those traits are at their root attractive, I just think guys worry about it too much instead of developing themselves physically, mentally, and socially. Guys get too caught up in the theory and not enough doing. Here is the YouSoWould post for reference:

Thank you for the link and references, I've made a note of them in my list for further reading.

I understand your comments around how they are attractive, it should perhaps be no surprise to me since I rated pretty high on them in the same test I took a few months ago before I knew about much of this.

From what I observed in the manosphere community you see distinct groups of guys who get obsessive over a specific aspect of masculinity whether it's lifting/nutrition/steroids, pua techniques or evopsych including DT. I agree that it's important to have a balanced approach which takes you out of your particular comfort zone and puts you in a mode of growth in all areas.

[floor7]

Love Roosh's video. He ethered those dudes.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(05-24-2015 09:51 AM)Libertas Wrote:  

As I have said, I have no doubt that those traits are at their root attractive, I just think guys worry about it too much instead of developing themselves physically, mentally, and socially. Guys get too caught up in the theory and not enough doing. Here is the YouSoWould post for reference:

I agree. It's not that you have to fake some kind of bad boy. Just be more of a dick towards women based on your own personality. That may be something as subtle as not reacting to her bullshit, sometimes not answering to her questions or answering with a grunt, walking away if you don't like something. If someone told you from childhood, that women like you being aggressive in a controlled fashion, would every man just censor himself so much?

The funny part is that we can be way more sensitive or open with our male friends than with the women in our life.

Also I might add - I have met individuals who were extremely strong and spiritual at the same time. They exuded an enormous amount of love, detachment, strength and charisma. When you have developed yourself to such extremes of the positive side, then the Dark Triad aspect to guys like that can be a cold or stern look or a few stronger words. No one would mistake those men for feeble suckers - even women won't.

Part of it is based on the fact that we don't understand what positive masculinity entails. It's not opening doors, giving flowers, being all nice and submissive towards women. That shit was brought up over the last century partly by the churches and by the gentleman doctrine - the reality of course being that men were by far more masculine in the 1930s/40s than now. No one had to show them how to be masculine - just watch a normal movie from the 1940s and see how the men behave - all men.

TL;DR - what I am trying to say is that a certain degree of Dark Triad is part of our male psychological foundation - just as aggression is necessary for us to defend ourselves. Women have their own Dark traits in the form of hypergamy, War Widow mentality etc.

[la_mode]

A lot of "Dark Triad" gets advocated, but it's forgotten for that to work effectively the woman has to have a baseline interest.

A below average guy cannot simply feign dark triad traits/personality and expect that to impress women.

Very few men are naturally dark triad in the correct way.

[Roosh]

I agree with Libertas that I don't see girls gravitate to men with full-blown Dark Triad traits we'd see in legitimately disturbed men (i.e. Charles Manson). Even though he did recently marry a young beauty from jail, do you see men like that in your city pulling tail regularly? When I think of players I've met with 100+ partners, they are selfish and calculating but very aware of a woman's attraction needs. The model of attraction that modern women are moving towards is liking sexy and aloof clowns (men who are attractive, interesting, and non-needy). This is probably Dark Triad-lite.

[Aurini]

It looks like a similar 'house cleaning' is going on amongst the neoreactionaries; less posturing and doxxing, more good philosophizing: http://freenortherner.com/2015/05/24/authority/

[Wutang]

A guy with low value trying to act "dark triad" will just come off as the Comic Book Guy from Simpsons. Sure he doesn't give a fuck about your opinion and will always try to exert himself over you - but he's also a fat slob with a pony tail dressed like his mom dressed him when he was in 4th grade. "worst date evvvvvvver"

[Roosh]

(05-24-2015 12:27 PM)Aurini Wrote:  

It looks like a similar 'house cleaning' is going on amongst the neoreactionaries; less posturing and doxxing, more good philosophizing: http://freenortherner.com/2015/05/24/authority/

And this is exactly why you need leadership with any thought platform that hopes to have a future. I completely agree with what they're doing and expect good things out of it.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(05-24-2015 12:25 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

I agree with Libertas that I don't see girls gravitate to men with full-blown Dark Triad traits we'd see in legitimately disturbed men (i.e. Charles Manson). Even though he did recently marry a young beauty from jail, do you see men like that in your city pulling tail regularly? When I think of players I've met with 100+ partners, they are selfish and calculating but very aware of a woman's attraction needs. The model of attraction that modern women are moving towards is liking sexy and aloof clowns (men who are attractive, interesting, and non-needy). This is probably Dark Triad-lite.

The true Dark Triad characters I know - the guys who spend years in prison usually - they get women, but usually women leave them and their notch count is not impressive. They are generally broken men who cannot help themselves. The intelligent drug baron guy is a super-rare instance. The average Dark Triad bloke is someone who has a fucked up life and women sooner or later run away from him - or they shy away from him instantly.

[Aurini]

I think the Dark Triad thing is a heuristical error. I've been meaning to write a longer post on this explaining all the details, but I can jot down the bullet points here, you'll just have to read between the lines.

It started with Atwoods (terrible) book Onyx and Crake; in it, she has the protagonists genetically engineer a new race of humans where the males are incapable of rape; they can only get erect when the female wants them to.

Here's the thing: we are that race. Who here can get hard at the idea of an unwilling woman? In a perfect (and imaginary) state of nature, all sex would be hot, violent, and consensual. Romance novel stuff. Rape is the disease of civilization. Mental incompetents, surrounded by hundreds of strange women who are dressed in high-heels and lipstick, both of which mimic sexual arousal, as well as an extremely sexualized media, are over-titillated. Ultimately they can't control their arousal - but put them in boot camp surrounded by men, they wouldn't have this problem, since they wouldn't be receiving mixed signals.

Normal men understand that most of these arousal signals are false flags, and control themselves; but this self-control winds up inhibiting their sexual nature in the bedroom. They fuck like limp-wristed faggots, because they have so much 'respect' for the women's consent.

Women are really bad at the whole consent thing (this is part of the reason Feminists go on about date rape); when they're ovulating and even a bit drunk, their uterus is screaming to get pregnant. It utterly overwhelms their self control. In the tribal environment, no problem - she gets fucked until her eyes are crossed. In the modern environment, huge problem. The civilized men won't approach her, and if they do they'll be limp wristed. So who does approach her?

Damaged men (Dark Triad traits are not a good thing; they're connected with torturing animals and bed-wetting) who don't care about the future. High time preference, manipulative to the point of stupidity, but more self-controlled than the deficient rapist.

The problem is that regular men don't know how to fuck a woman anymore because of the extreme self-control they're forced to adopt. The only sort of man who will risk giving a horny woman a good pounding is the sort of man who'll also risk his freedom selling drugs and stealing cars. In the tribal environment, the Dark Triad shitheel would have been put to death by the other men long ago; they manage to get sex, but ultimately they're pathetic creatures.

Adopting the traits of machiavellianism, et cetera, is not the same thing as being a pathetic narcissist. We can observe and learn, but trying to become the Dark Triad is idiotic.

(Edit: this also explains the rape fantasy. Women don't want to be molested by the janitor or some gangbanger with AIDS, they want to be fucked the way a woman is supposed to be fucked when she wants it, without apology or quarter given.)

[Libertas]

I've written a post about this whole schism. It also explains in some ways how I got here:

Neomasculinity, Schisms, & The Future

Also as an aside, to write this post, I needed to look a bit further into MGTOWs. Most of these guys are whiny faggots and degenerates, just on a different point of the equation. They truly are social constructivists that deny the true nature of the sexes. Sandman essentially wanting to separate a child from its mother speaks to his narcissistic delusions as an individual.

It's good that this is happening. These are people we should want nothing to do with.