[Vicious]

jaakkeli, The Local is at best a gossip rag with a tepid relation to truth in reporting. The police figures and from reliable media was 1/10 the number that The Local reported.

[bojangles]

(05-21-2013 04:34 AM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 03:43 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

^ It's absolutely nothing to do with race. It's to do with culture.

A race makes a culture, you can't separate the two.

that's utter bollocks as well.

[Teedub]

(05-21-2013 07:57 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 04:34 AM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 03:43 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

^ It's absolutely nothing to do with race. It's to do with culture.

A race makes a culture, you can't separate the two.

that's utter bollocks as well.

Exactly, I have more in common with you most probably than a white American guy. Or a white German guy, Spanish guy etc.

Muslim's aren't a race anyhow, which is why I was bemused as to why WIA brought it up.

[Galnuc69]

(05-21-2013 07:57 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 04:34 AM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 03:43 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

^ It's absolutely nothing to do with race. It's to do with culture.

A race makes a culture, you can't separate the two.

that's utter bollocks as well.

Why is that bollocks? Did the British not make the British Culture, or the Indians the Indian, or the Jew the Jewish?

[samsamsam]

(05-21-2013 01:06 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 07:57 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 04:34 AM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 03:43 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

^ It's absolutely nothing to do with race. It's to do with culture.

A race makes a culture, you can't separate the two.

that's utter bollocks as well.

Why is that bollocks? Did the British not make the British Culture, or the Indians the Indian, or the Jew the Jewish?

If you look at the American culture it is mash up of a bunch of stuff.


The French consider you French even if you are not white as long as you accept being French. So in that mindset being French rises above race. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/opinio....html?_r=0

To exclusionists, the test of French-ness is straightforward: have you relinquished any other identity you might have had? As articulated by President Sarkozy in 2011: “If you come to France, you accept to melt into a single community, which is the national community, and if you do not want to accept that, you are not welcome in France. We have been too concerned with the identity of the person who was arriving, and not enough about the identity of the country that was receiving him.”

I mean even the French to their disappointment have had to accept terms from other countries like the US and incorporated into its culture.

Also, I think tea drinking is a part of British culture, right?

http://www.britainexpress.com/History/te...ritain.htm

Tea, that most quintessential of English drinks, is a relative latecomer to British shores. Although the custom of drinking tea dates back to the third millennium BC in China, it was not until the mid 17th century that the beverage first appeared in England.

The use of tea spread slowly from its Asian homeland, reaching Europe by way of Venice around 1560, although Portuguese trading ships may have made contact with the Chinese as early as 1515.

[Galnuc69]

(05-21-2013 04:06 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 01:06 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 07:57 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 04:34 AM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 03:43 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

^ It's absolutely nothing to do with race. It's to do with culture.

A race makes a culture, you can't separate the two.

that's utter bollocks as well.

Why is that bollocks? Did the British not make the British Culture, or the Indians the Indian, or the Jew the Jewish?

If you look at the American culture it is mash up of a bunch of stuff.


The French consider you French even if you are not white as long as you accept being French. So in that mindset being French rises above race. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/opinio....html?_r=0

To exclusionists, the test of French-ness is straightforward: have you relinquished any other identity you might have had? As articulated by President Sarkozy in 2011: “If you come to France, you accept to melt into a single community, which is the national community, and if you do not want to accept that, you are not welcome in France. We have been too concerned with the identity of the person who was arriving, and not enough about the identity of the country that was receiving him.”

I mean even the French to their disappointment have had to accept terms from other countries like the US and incorporated into its culture.

Also, I think tea drinking is a part of British culture, right?

http://www.britainexpress.com/History/te...ritain.htm

Tea, that most quintessential of English drinks, is a relative latecomer to British shores. Although the custom of drinking tea dates back to the third millennium BC in China, it was not until the mid 17th century that the beverage first appeared in England.

The use of tea spread slowly from its Asian homeland, reaching Europe by way of Venice around 1560, although Portuguese trading ships may have made contact with the Chinese as early as 1515.

What is the "American Culture"?

But that really doesn't answer the question, that just deflects it because you know I am right. A culture does not exist independent of a people, a people form a culture.

French may allow non-french to assume their identity, but that just shows the French identity was forged by the French, and theirs to confer on to whomever they wish. This identity conferred on foreigners wouldn't exist without the French to begin with, and will cease to exist when they are no longer a majority ethnic bloc. In the future, the minority ethnic french population could call non-ethnic french foreigners whatever they like, but I doubt the foreigners would accept that designation. Humans naturally conform to the culture of the majority. If France becomes a majority muslim nation, new immigrants will feel no need to adapt to an outdated minority culture.

[jaakkeli]

(05-21-2013 06:39 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

jaakkeli, The Local is at best a gossip rag with a tepid relation to truth in reporting.

Not much choice since not a lot of people can read Swedish. I can, so feel free to link, of course.

Quote:

The police figures and from reliable media was 1/10 the number that The Local reported.

Reliable media... from what I hear from my friends and relatives in Stockholm it's 10 times worse than what any media is reporting. As usual.

I checked Finnish evening newspapers, still not a word about riots in Stockholm. Tornadoes in America are the only real news, then here's a story about the President's cat, a bear sighting in a rural town and the front page picture on the largest paper's web page is David Hasselhoff visiting STOCKHOLM! If David Hasselhoff waving to reporters in Stockholm is front page news in Finland you would maybe expect there to be at least a tiny story about riots and another part of Stockholm being on fire and not under police control for a couple of nights in a row?

TV news was actually reporting on this but none of the ones I watched mentioned who the rioters are, though I heard it emphasized that "immigrant owned stores were attacked". Fucking ridiculous. These days I'd rather get my news from rumour and random guys with Youtube videos, I only watch mainstream media whenever I want to get pissed off.

[Lemmo]

(05-21-2013 04:55 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 04:06 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 01:06 PM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 07:57 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 04:34 AM)Galnuc69 Wrote:  

A race makes a culture, you can't separate the two.

that's utter bollocks as well.

Why is that bollocks? Did the British not make the British Culture, or the Indians the Indian, or the Jew the Jewish?

If you look at the American culture it is mash up of a bunch of stuff.


The French consider you French even if you are not white as long as you accept being French. So in that mindset being French rises above race. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/opinio....html?_r=0

To exclusionists, the test of French-ness is straightforward: have you relinquished any other identity you might have had? As articulated by President Sarkozy in 2011: “If you come to France, you accept to melt into a single community, which is the national community, and if you do not want to accept that, you are not welcome in France. We have been too concerned with the identity of the person who was arriving, and not enough about the identity of the country that was receiving him.”

I mean even the French to their disappointment have had to accept terms from other countries like the US and incorporated into its culture.

Also, I think tea drinking is a part of British culture, right?

http://www.britainexpress.com/History/te...ritain.htm

Tea, that most quintessential of English drinks, is a relative latecomer to British shores. Although the custom of drinking tea dates back to the third millennium BC in China, it was not until the mid 17th century that the beverage first appeared in England.

The use of tea spread slowly from its Asian homeland, reaching Europe by way of Venice around 1560, although Portuguese trading ships may have made contact with the Chinese as early as 1515.

What is the "American Culture"?

But that really doesn't answer the question, that just deflects it because you know I am right. A culture does not exist independent of a people, a people form a culture.

French may allow non-french to assume their identity, but that just shows the French identity was forged by the French, and theirs to confer on to whomever they wish. This identity conferred on foreigners wouldn't exist without the French to begin with, and will cease to exist when they are no longer a majority ethnic bloc. In the future, the minority ethnic french population could call non-ethnic french foreigners whatever they like, but I doubt the foreigners would accept that designation. Humans naturally conform to the culture of the majority. If France becomes a majority muslim nation, new immigrants will feel no need to adapt to an outdated minority culture.

It is the assimilationist myth. People can magically change their cultural identity by standing on a different piece of dirt. The Sarkozy quote illustrates the magnitude of the delusion. But the West seems to be making progress. They went from keeping foreigners out, to letting them in but expecting them to assimilate, to letting them in and wanting them to keep their culture, back to wanting them to assimilate. Just one more step to go back to keeping them out.

[Vicious]

(05-21-2013 04:55 PM)jaakkeli Wrote:  

(05-21-2013 06:39 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

jaakkeli, The Local is at best a gossip rag with a tepid relation to truth in reporting.

Not much choice since not a lot of people can read Swedish. I can, so feel free to link, of course.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article16811862.ab
Another shitty rag but at least they are quoting right.

Your friends in Stockholm have likely not seen any of this since unless they live in this outer suburb the gang vandalism is limited to. No other parts of the city have been touched.

[Teedub]

Vicious, I've been here a lot less amount of time than you have so I'm not going to start criticizing you.... However, you have a reputation (I base that purely on reading the threads and the comments) for defending Sweden to a ridiculous degree in previous threads. So, I just want to know, if a definitive article came out saying that Sweden's overly pro-multicultural government/media (they are one and the same) had been responsible for some extremely detrimental things happening in Sweden, would you admit it?

Sweden has transformed dramatically in the last 20 years, you cannot deny it, and it is definitely for the worse! The news stories may well be exaggerated, but those news stories wouldn't have even existed 20 years ago. I want to know why Western governments would seek to ruin their nations in such a massive way? I'm not saying you know why, but I want to know what your opinion is, as to why they have done.

[Samseau]

In what way has Sweden (or any country) benefited from Islamic immigration?

[AFspecOps]

These figures are a few years old, but you get the point:


As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:

United States -- Muslim 0..6%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1.8%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on grocery chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia.

When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris , we are already seeing car-burnings. In Russia , grade-schools were attacked. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:

India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 15%

After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:

Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%

From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, beheadings, stoning, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%

[jaakkeli]

(05-21-2013 05:27 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article16811862.ab
Another shitty rag but at least they are quoting right.

Hmm, let's see. It's now three days of rioting, this is an article written about the second night when it was on progress.

"Minst elva bilar, varav en färdtjänstbuss, sattes i brand och åtminstone en polisbil förstördes."

So, unless I'm misreading, on the number of cars it says "at least eleven" have been set alight and one police car has been destroyed (I would presume this wording means the rioters destroyed one police car by other means than burning). No source for the number is stated at all, no one is quoted on it, though this is mentioned after they quote a policeman called Emil Andersson's Twitter account perhaps to give the impression that they're quoting him on it but I couldn't find that on his Twitter. Nothing really different from that you find at The Local or any other newspaper, numbers pulled out of the hat while the event is going on.

Meanwhile the third night of riots has been going on and cars have started burning in other suburbs. I have no way of telling cases apart so I can't count the number of cars but according to Aftonbladet's live reporting cars have been torched in Husby, Sollentuna, Fittja, Bredäng, Vårberg, Jakosberg, Norsborg, Kista and Tensta... oh, six cars burning in a parking lot... likely several cars per reported location, think the total is going to be a lot more than a few. There's also garbage bins, preschools and some other random stuff on fire.

I especially like hearing about Fittja since it has been on the Finnish news constantly in recent days thanks to its new mosque built with all the minarets and shouting the call to prayer, all that just like in the Middle East. Today Fittja is pioneering more than just car burning:

http://www.metro.se/nyheter/buss-i-fittj...F4CrLsHt2/

They've stopped bus service to several suburbs because the "youths" have been attacking the buses but in Fittja they were actually shooting at the bus.

Quote:

Your friends in Stockholm have likely not seen any of this since unless they live in this outer suburb the gang vandalism is limited to. No other parts of the city have been touched.

Some of my friends are like me, they like to watch. And take photos.

[Norset]

(05-21-2013 07:24 PM)AFspecOps Wrote:  

These figures are a few years old, but you get the point:

[Atilla]

Yeah, crime is outrageous when it’s coming from Muslims or blacks, but the most dangerous places in Western and Eastern Europe are nearly 0% Muslim or black. Any one of you would know you’re safer in Stockholm, Malmo, Oslo, Paris, Berlin, or Brussels than in the nearly 100% white and non-Muslim cities of Glasgow, Belfast, or just about anywhere in homogenous Eastern Europe. If you can’t handle low levels of minority crime, I don’t know how you can live in the US or visit places like South Africa, Honduras, Venezuela, and Colombia.

Not only that, but how do you explain the low crime rates in so much of the Islamic world if these people are so bloodthirsty? I wouldn’t go so far as to call the people models for tolerance and civilized behavior, but that long list of “barbaric Islamic countries” included many which have some of the lowest homicide rates in the world. It also left out peaceful countries like Singapore which have large Muslim minorities without so much of the income disparity issue.

It’s funny how so many of you guys will cry about minority riots, then see some Russian or Pole acting like a drunk violent thug and call him a model for alpha male behavior.

[Kabal]

(05-21-2013 11:31 PM)Atilla Wrote:  

Yeah, crime is outrageous when it’s coming from Muslims or blacks, but the most dangerous places in Western and Eastern Europe are nearly 0% Muslim or black. Any one of you would know you’re safer in Stockholm, Malmo, Oslo, Paris, Berlin, or Brussels than in the nearly 100% white and non-Muslim cities of Glasgow, Belfast, or just about anywhere in homogenous Eastern Europe. If you can’t handle low levels of minority crime, I don’t know how you can live in the US or visit places like South Africa, Honduras, Venezuela, and Colombia.

When one is pondering the value-add of mass Muslim immigration, the question is not whether Western Europe with a small but growing Muslim minority is safer than Eastern Europe. The question is whether Western Europe with a small but growing Muslim minority is safer than a Western Europe without a small but growing Muslim population.

On a side note, there is no reason to assume behavioral homogeneity between Western and Eastern European whites.

[Vicious]

(05-21-2013 05:43 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

I just want to know, if a definitive article came out saying that Sweden's overly pro-multicultural government/media (they are one and the same) had been responsible for some extremely detrimental things happening in Sweden, would you admit it?

Sweden has transformed dramatically in the last 20 years, you cannot deny it, and it is definitely for the worse! The news stories may well be exaggerated, but those news stories wouldn't have even existed 20 years ago.

You're fallaciously framing this as a question while saying I "cannot deny it" in the next breath.

Claiming the government/media in Swe is one and the same just makes it even more silly.

You're implying that I'm not accurately giving an account of the situation as it is while you yourself serve up the above humbug. Hypocritical.

[Vicious]

(05-21-2013 07:23 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

In what way has Sweden benefited from Islamic immigration?

I'm not sure it has. If it has benefits they are likely subtle (picking up other nations brain drain for ex) and will only be relevant to measure over a larger time scale (ie generations). Kabal also had a good point on this. That is again, IF the country has benefitted.

Many people assume that because I argue against them on this topic I'm a proponent of Muslim mass immigration. I'm not, I merely stick to the facts. For people heavily ideologically invested in this topic that is apparently a stance that's very difficult to wrap their heads around.

[Vicious]

(05-21-2013 07:23 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

In what way has Sweden benefited from Islamic immigration?

I'm not sure it has. If it has benefits they are likely subtle (picking up other nations brain drain for ex) and will only be relevant to measure over a larger time scale (ie generations). That is again, IF the country has benefitted.

Many people assume that because I argue against them on this topic I'm a proponent of Muslim mass immigration. I'm not, I merely stick to the facts. For people heavily ideologically invested in this topic that is apparently a stance that's very difficult to wrap their heads around.

[Samseau]

Atilla Wrote:

Glasgow, Belfast, or just about anywhere in homogenous Eastern Europe

The difference is, the violence in these places is not from a book with instructions on world domination.

[Samseau]

Well, well, well. Looks like other countries are picking up on the fact that Stockholm is having a bit of a problem:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/9310c7d0-...z2TpXeZFsL

3 nights going on 4 now?

Quote:

Rioting in Stockholm spread to as many as a dozen suburbs in a third consecutive night of unrest that has reopened the debate about how well integrated immigrants are in Sweden.
Cars were set on fire all over the Swedish capital on Tuesday night and early on Wednesday, while in several suburbs police and other emergency services were pelted with stones, Swedish television reported.
Stockholm police, who made several arrests, said the situation was made more complicated by the number of suburbs where unrest was recorded. But they also noted that the initial hotspot of Husby, home to a large immigrant population, was calmer on Tuesday night.
“It is very similar to what we have seen in London or Paris but not yet on that scale. But it is a sign of a similar problem; it is a sign of failing integration,” said Per Adman, associate professor at Uppsala University, before the latest unrest.
Sweden attracts one of the highest numbers of immigrants in the EU compared with the size of its population. That has led to a fierce debate about their integration, especially as youth unemployment is particularly high among immigrants.
The rioting was apparently sparked after police last weekend killed a 69-year-old man accused of brandishing a machete. About 100 people were involved in clashes with the police on both Sunday and Monday nights.
On Tuesday night, fires were reported in Husby, the neighbouring suburbs of Tensta and Kista, as well as Jakobsberg, Sollentuna, Norsborg, Värberg, Skarpnäck, Skärholmen, Fittja and Bredäng, according to SVT, Swedish public television.
Stockholm police had said on Tuesday night they were calling in extra help in Husby after saying criminals from outside the area had been stoking the trouble. In turn, Megafonen, a local youth organisation, has accused the police of using racial slurs and argued the riots were a reaction to alleged police brutality.
Swedish politicians reacted to the disorder in a nuanced manner on Tuesday. “The core of this is a group of young, angry men who think by force they can change society,” said Fredrik Reinfeldt, prime minister. “Let us be very clear: this is not OK. The use of violence is not a way to express freedom of speech in Sweden.”
Stefan Löfven, leader of the opposition Social Democratic party, which is ahead in the polls before next year’s parliamentary elections, said: “We must be clear and tough on crime and show it is not acceptable. But we also need to have a discussion on the causes of crime, and I’m talking primarily about long-term unemployment.”
Sweden’s reputation for equality and tolerance has been tested by a series of incidents in recent years, including a number of racially motivated killings in the southern city of Malmö.
Experts say that while the Nordic country successfully integrated its immigrants in the 1960s and 1970s it has struggled to do so in the past decade, with many blaming a lack of jobs for low-skilled workers. Youth unemployment was 25.1 per cent in March, above the EU average, even as the overall rate was 8.4 per cent and below the average.
Racial tensions have led to the rise of the Sweden Democrats, an anti-immigrant group that is now the third-largest political party in the country.

Looks like Anders Brevik is behind the scenes for a lot of Swedish resistance still...

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/899b0e9e-...z2U292LjU6

Quote:

Shortly before midnight on New Year’s eve, in one of the poorest and most racially diverse districts of Sweden, 15-year-old Samir Ardiwan was shot repeatedly in the chest and head. Amid the fireworks and celebrations, his death was at first barely noticed.
The murder was one of six since late December in Malmö, Sweden’s third-largest city, which has led to the biggest police investigation in the country’s history since prime minister Olof Palme was assassinated in 1986.

The violence follows a spate of racially motivated shootings in the city two years ago. The chief suspect in these attacks, Peter Mangs, was applauded this week by Anders Breivik, the rightwing extremist on trial for killing 77 people in Norway, as one of the “heroic young people” who should be celebrated for sacrificing their lives for the “conservative revolution”.

[Teedub]

More examples from the religion of peace. This happened today in London:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cri...27647.html

[Samseau]

It is shocking.

[Exactaking]

The desire for cheap labor is at the root of all this strife. Ironic since the kind of people who complain about income inequality usually have a bleeding heart for third worlders, blind to the fact that if companies were compelled to pay a living wage they wouldn've brought them over in the first place. Weird how conservatism and liberalism are not absolute; pure free market creates a liberal society with no ethnic idenity, a socialist society done right (ala Denmark) promotes ethnic collectivism.

[Teedub]

^ National(ist) Socialism I suppose!