[cardguy]

Just heard this one:

MGTOW in 6 words...

"The juice isn't worth the squeeze."

[Vitriol]

(04-24-2013 06:11 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

You have to SHOW a muthafukka you mean business, and make him hurt until he gives you what you want. In this context, that means things like exactly what MGTOW does, and the things Captain Capitalism (Aaron Clarey) says: reduce your production to just what you need to survive, withdraw your emotional support and attention from cunts, disengage from society to whatever extent you deem suitable for you, and let the whole rotten house collapse in on itself.

Does anyone have the links to the Captain Capitalism posts where he talks about this?

It seems like many men who aren't even involved in things like MGTOW, PUA, MRA, etc. Are going to end up disengaging from society because the opportunities aren't there anymore. Some of us are making a calculated effort to be part of the marriage strike or only use girls for pumping and dumping, but think about all the guys who can no longer afford mortgages or will never have steady high paying jobs like they would have a generation ago. This current economic and social model really is going cannibal on itself and mainstream sources are still living in the past, so no one outside of these movements really notices.

[aphelion]

Those of you who say that MGTOWs aren't losers for doing what they want are using the same logic that fat chicks use to defend themselves, because they claim to want to be fat. It's bullshit and we all know it. Everyone has the same basic needs (unless they're truly, madly different) and that includes companionship of the opposite sex. 98% of fat chicks would be traditional slinky hotties if they could, and 98% of MGTOWs wouldn't be that way if they were swimming in top shelf pussy that didn't divorce rape them.

It comes from the same dark place of self-admittance to defeat. That's why they're losers - because they LOST.

[Vitriol]

(04-24-2013 10:01 PM)aphelion Wrote:  

Those of you who say that MGTOWs aren't losers for doing what they want are using the same logic that fat chicks use to defend themselves, because they claim to want to be fat. It's bullshit and we all know it. Everyone has the same basic needs (unless they're truly, madly different) and that includes companionship of the opposite sex. 98% of fat chicks would be traditional slinky hotties if they could, and 98% of MGTOWs wouldn't be that way if they were swimming in top shelf pussy that didn't divorce rape them.

It comes from the same dark place of self-admittance to defeat. That's why they're losers - because they LOST.

I think you're misunderstanding the logic behind this. Compare these three statements:

1. I have no interest in X.

2. I cannot obtain X, therefore I will not pursue it.

3. X is a mediocre product, but it also requires a lot of time and effort to obtain. Even if I get X, there are heavy risks associated with it. Therefore, X is not worth pursuing.

Statement number 2 is the sour grapes answer, where statement 3 is a value judgment based on the return on investment. Statement 1 is the denial of a need totally, which I don't think anyone is advocating that a heterosexual guy would refuse to be swimming in pussy if he could be.

[cardguy]

I am all for hot pussy - which is easily available from a hooker by the way.

But - for me - I have never desired companionship with a girl. I have much more enjoyable things to do with my time, than being dragged around the shops buying new curtains.

[w00t]

(04-24-2013 10:01 PM)aphelion Wrote:  

Those of you who say that MGTOWs aren't losers for doing what they want are using the same logic that fat chicks use to defend themselves, because they claim to want to be fat. It's bullshit and we all know it. Everyone has the same basic needs (unless they're truly, madly different) and that includes companionship of the opposite sex. 98% of fat chicks would be traditional slinky hotties if they could, and 98% of MGTOWs wouldn't be that way if they were swimming in top shelf pussy that didn't divorce rape them.

It comes from the same dark place of self-admittance to defeat. That's why they're losers - because they LOST.

MGTOW is not about celibacy, the guys who "ghost" (go completely celibate) are only a fraction. Its about kicking pussy off the pedestal and refusing to have your masculinity defined by females. There are guys who are into game and pump and dump, guys who use hookers, even guys in relationships. Some of these guys even banged models and quit the game because they dont want to deal with all the psycho bullshit anymore. PU is good as a technique but if it becomes some dogmatic shit like "you HAVE To chase pussy 24/7" or "you HAVE to get laid or else youre a loser" thats where the problems begin.

Also like cardguy said you are projecting your own values on other men. Not everyone NEEDS female companionship. Personally I like sex and I like pussy but thats about it, apart from that I want as little to do with females as possible. I wish I could go full ghost and never have to deal with them anymore at all, the amount of peace and freedom it brings into your life is incredible. Unfortunately my raging sex drive wont allow me to do so.

[cardguy]

I thought only gay guys enjoying hanging out with girls - just for the company alone.

[cardguy]

Just managed to put into words a thought I have had for awhile.

It is to do with what is known as 'survivorship bias' or 'self-selection' in statistics.

Think about this.

MGTOW is about rebelling against the life script that you were raised with. Since - by definition everybody alive is born to two parents - who at one point thought that having kids would be nice. And - in the majority of cases - wanted to 'settle down'.

So - to reject that seems (at first) a bit radical.

But imagine this.

Imagine a fucked up law where only Scientologists were allowed to have children. And imagine as well - that only 1% of the population were Scientologists - so only about 1% of the population ever reproduced.

In thirty years time. All the young people (by definiton) would imagine that being a Scientologist was the most normal thing in the world. Since - they wouldn't know any better - and they wouldn't have any other friends in the same age groups who knew any different either.

So - even though - quite alot of people never have children (I am guessing 10-20% of the population). It is easy to imagine that just about everyone is married and has kids. Since just about everyone you know is from a similar background to you. With a life script which reads 'birth-marriage-babies-retirement-death'.

This is all pretty obvious stuff. But I just wanted to get it down here - since anything involving 'self-selected' groups can be quite deceptive...

[bacon]

@cardguy

I agree I think social expectations are at the heart of why MGTOW is not more popular. Most people are pretty conventional and never question the system or their environment and what is expected of them. For people from the developed nations(anglosphere, Japan) the cultural shift in the image of marriage and having kids (to an extent as well) has not caught up with the reality quite yet. Give it another generation or two and you will really see the impact of this as marriage and kids become far less common (a trend which already grows exponentially from decade to decade). Speaking as a guy in my 20´s who grew up watching my friend’s parents and relatives deal with the personal and financial damage of divorce it left an impact on me, as I am sure it has for many other men from my generation. I remember a couple of years back when I got my vasectomy I asked my Urologist how many guys who are also in their 20´s who have never had kids are getting the snip. He told me that in the last decade or so it has become much more common especially after the recession and that even as recent as 20 years ago he almost never did it for childless men that age. I am confident that in time as social norms and expectations change the trend will continue to be fewer marriages and children and more MGTOW.

[Power_Ranger]

Just found out the girl my brother has been dating for the past two months is a divorcee.

At age 24. What the fuck!


I told my dad to get into his head that this is bad news. Her mother is the same. "oh but they're into each other". I told him to watch for the 6 month mark and let the shit slide down the wall.

God my brother is an idiot.

[Kingsley Davis]

(03-19-2013 07:10 PM)King Solomon Wrote:  

as we know, MGTOW stands for Men Going Their Own Way.

Thing is, "their own way" could be anything. Could be fishing with his buddies. Could be traveling. Could be whoring. Could be porn and anime. Could be going hobo and riding the rails. Could be picking up chicks and then dropping them on their ass. Could be that "going his own way" means going to San Fran to learn BDSM and become a Dom all decked in leather training (nasty) chicks to be his slaves and beating them while they thank him for it.

What MGTOW is *not*, is a man living his life for someone else such as a wife or society at large that need worker bees to feed off of. It is a man throwing off any societal norms that he took in spite of his interests. Some MGTOWs might be happy to have a house in the suburbs and a mortgage, as long as he gets to have his boat in the garage and lives near a fishin hole. Some guys never want to be beholden in any way, to any thing, ever. It's not this or that, specifically. It is WHATEVER IN THE HELL HE WANTS AND FUCK YOU IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT

Calling them losers betrays your own insecurities. Calling them losers makes you a hater. MGTOWs aren't haters- they just don't give a shit enough to even remark or reply. They do what pleases them and serves them, and defy anyone they wish to defy.

I like MGTOWs. No one has leverage on them. How can you be down on a guy for casting off people's attempts to manipulate him?

my 2 cents.

This ^^^^

[RawGod]

In theory, MGTOWs are going their own way and doing whatever they want. That's what the acronym says. How could you argue with that?

But in practice, their forums and other internet droppings are full of bitter loserdom and hate of those with active sex lives. These are the male equivalents of fat chicks going their own way by eating cupcakes for breakfast, brunch, lunch and dinner. So yeah, go your own way, but there is no need to associate yourself with that label.

[cardguy]

MGTOW is a bit of a shit label. Due to the connotations it has. But - as I have said before - MGTOW doesn't really care about what others think.

But on a wider point. I think MGTOW has come about as a loose grouping - because the internet has made it easier to be alone (due to porn and the entertainment/interesting shit online). And easier to hear about the fucked up things that happen to alot of the guys who go down the wife and kids route.

Also - MGTOW has come about because some guys enjoy hanging out on forums like this one. And want to point out that not all guys are shooting for the same goals. Even though - they have most of everything else in common.

Labels are useful as a shorthand. But shouldn't be taken too seriously. In the same way - most guys here would object to the simple term of PUA to describe their interests.

[cardguy]

Just reading through this thread - and had another thought.

Many of us laugh at people who waste money on designer clothes and designer brands. Since wasting money to try and impress people is pretty pathetic.

Well - being the lazy nihilist that I am. I feel that trying to chase 'status' and impress people doesn't just stop at expensive clothes and expensive cars.

I feel alot of people who try and do 'cool' stuff (like travelling, music festivals, sporting events, museums, art galleries, surfing, snowboarding, sailing etc) are ultimately just doing it to try and impress others. Even if there is nobody watching them.

Somehow the act alone builds up their self-esteem enough to make it worthwhile. As if they are starring as an idealised version of themselves in a movie of their lives.

Which is fine. But - it makes me laugh when 'cool' people think other people are 'uncool' for doing boring shit (in my case reading books and drinking bourbon). Since - whatever you may think of 'uncool' people - you can be sure they are doing what makes them truly happy. And with no ulterior motive.

Sorry - I'm not sure if the above makes sense to others. It is just something that occurs to me since my older brother is always tring to do stuff just for the sake of doing stuff.

And it often seems as well that people are more interested in the photos they will get for their Facebook page - than they are in the enjoyment they will get from the activity itself.

[Chruznic]

(04-24-2013 09:18 PM)Vitriol Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 06:11 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

You have to SHOW a muthafukka you mean business, and make him hurt until he gives you what you want. In this context, that means things like exactly what MGTOW does, and the things Captain Capitalism (Aaron Clarey) says: reduce your production to just what you need to survive, withdraw your emotional support and attention from cunts, disengage from society to whatever extent you deem suitable for you, and let the whole rotten house collapse in on itself.

Does anyone have the links to the Captain Capitalism posts where he talks about this?

It seems like many men who aren't even involved in things like MGTOW, PUA, MRA, etc. Are going to end up disengaging from society because the opportunities aren't there anymore. Some of us are making a calculated effort to be part of the marriage strike or only use girls for pumping and dumping, but think about all the guys who can no longer afford mortgages or will never have steady high paying jobs like they would have a generation ago. This current economic and social model really is going cannibal on itself and mainstream sources are still living in the past, so no one outside of these movements really notices.

He wrote a book on the matter called Enjoy the decline.

[Valentine]

MGTOW is a useful philosophy - choosing to create your own path free from societal expectations. But as RawGod stated above, in practice these men are full of hate.

I prefer the idea of 'Red Pill' - knowing and understand the numerous societal expectations, mainstream lies and complexities of civilisation which then allows one to make their own decision of how to live their own lives.

IMO MGTOW is personified by Aaron Clarey aka 'Captain Capitalism' in his book Enjoy the Decline and of John Galt in Atlas Shrugged. The thing is, while they argue for rational self-interest and pursuing one's own goals by refusing to be another cog in society, in the long run they're handicapping themselves.

Someone who understands the influence of society and instead chooses to game The System by outsourcing the work of their internet business, banging easy 'sexually-liberated women' or other low-hanging fruit like wannabe 'sugar babies' (see Seeking Arrangement thread) and using geoarbitrage to live in a country where they can get the most bang for their buck are really the ones who both have their cake and eat it.

It seems to me that MGTOWs often 'go ghost', withdrawing from all real-life companionship and live a minimalist life with videogames, porn and other activities which give them no meaning or long-lasting happiness. You don't have to withdraw from women and work - just instead use them for your own selfish needs and don't give up by getting married, getting a boring 9-5, etc.

[w00t]

So female companionship = long-lasting happiness?
Uh hell no.

I have a buddy who lives in Pattaya and makes money from his internet biz. By day he plays video games by night he bangs young whores. Now THATS a kind of lifestyle I can see myself enjoying.

[cardguy]

This doesn't just apply to MGTOW. I think we can all relate to it. But I want to post it since it is a nice example of the script that so many of us here on the forum are trying to avoid:

I know this video has been posted before. But it is an excellent one which acts as a motivator, in terms of what to avoid in life.

[Dulceácido]

(02-26-2013 01:23 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

Women hate hookers. Not because of what they do. But because of how they go about it.

They hate them because they are too blatant and open about what their intentions are.

They much prefer the girls who can pull off the 'long con' - like the women who can find rich guys and then take half their money.

Sadly - all women are the same.

Some you pay up front with cash on the table.

Others you pay at the end in the divorce courts.

The first type are cheaper and more honest.

[cardguy]

Heard this the other day.

Why is divorce so expensive?

Because it is worth it.

[cardguy]

A good friend of mine is getting married.

[BecomingMachine]

(03-02-2013 09:13 PM)Blaster Wrote:  

(02-24-2013 08:29 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Out of the PUA, MRA, and MGTOW stuff
(pick up artists, men's rights advocates, and men going their own way)

MGTOW has the appeal.
it doesn't come off as skeevy like Pick Up.
It doesn't come off as bitter as MRA often sounds.

It's men deciding that they want to live their lives on their own terms. They don't exist to be the engine for society, to build society and to be taxed by said society.

It appeals to the independent and self-sufficient nature of men, without any baggage of the other movements.

WIA

What I don't really get about mgtow is why it even exists (disclaimer: I haven't tried too hard to understand). Once I graduated from college and started supporting myself, I've pretty much done my best to live my life on my own terms. I made some dumb mistakes and also didn't take as many risks I could have, but I was independent and except where the law was involved (taxes, insurance, etc.) I just did whatever I wanted. I was productive, creative, made money, traveled, whatever.

That is, except in one area, which was women. I had social skills but very little success attracting the girls I wanted to fuck. I got lucky a couple of times (I have good looks) but eventually I realized I was (a) still flailing in the dark (b) sublimating and rationalizing subpar relationships with women I did not truly desire.

The details are a story for another time, suffice to say that with some encouragement I deliberately sought out game resources for self-improvement. That's how I found Roosh initially, and then I stuck around because I found a lot of other interesting ideas. That's how I wound up exposed to the MRA stuff, and while I think MRA's reputation for bitterness and whining is somewhat deserved and they can be as prone to denying reality as feminists, I found many quality articles and legal topics I had not considered before.

But MGTOW... I've never seen any truly interesting blog or online resource, nor would I have any reason to seek out such a group on my own. Game and MRA types always seem to be talking about MGTOW, and while the concept makes a ton of sense I don't understand its appeal as a distinct movement.

I think MGTOW doesn't really make a statement. It's hard to hate them, but shouldn't we all be men going our own way? Game doesn't have much of a retirement plan, look at Mystery. That was never the idea. The idea is to PROVE something; MAKE something of yourself; and BE who you want to be. Eventually you will realize that Game is just as much following the dictations of female societal expectations as marriage. Just as much as both are expressions of male societal expectations.

Everybody's desperate for something. But by being desperate for it, you are causing suffering in yourself; nothing is more preventative to feeling like you've gotten what you want than the suffering. If suffering drives you to go and get what you want, then you're spiteful and it will feel hollow.

The reason I chose to reply to you, WIA, is because I creep the fuck out of your posts and wanted you to know you struck a chord with me. People convince themselves that certain relationships are so good when really your life WAS, IS, and WILL BE the same largely with or without them. That is the secret; there is no secret.

Back to writing erotica at my internship

[Beyond Borders]

Interesting discussion.

(02-24-2013 06:07 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

I always remind a girl that I have visited Amsterdam and have slept with much hotter girls than her for about $100. So - to me she is worth no more than a couple of box sets of 'Mad Men.' I tell em' the market has already set her value and the market is never wrong. I tell em' don't argue with me. Argue with Milton Friedman. And then I laugh at them again for not knowing who the fuck Milton Friedman is.

Great stuff. I might steal that.

Quote:

I dunno' - if I cared enough I could probably figure out some kind of clever 'anti'-game game. I think there might be something in it. But to me it is a way of life. I will bow down to no authority. And I refuse to try and impress anyone. Especially the wimminz.

I play a lot of anti-game game, I guess you could say. I just refuse to pursue women and am fine with going home alone as I know there's always another night and another girl. If I get an attitude from them I ignore or heckle (or both), and it sometimes results in a mounting hostility, which then sometimes ends in them breaking down and throwing themselves on me (certainly not always).

I have game in the sense that I care about my appearance, am witty, and am a bit of a charmer as long as others themselves reciprocate, but other than that I don't employ much game. No routines. Little mental strategy. My game pretty much consists of not giving a shit and having zero fear of approach, at least when drinking.

Most of my successes feel really natural, or if they're unnatural it's because of an unusual amount of aggression from the woman - never me. I always thought I was just playing some kind of hard to get, but maybe anti-game is more accurate. I really just don't try all that hard.

I'd say I differ a lot from many of you "MGTOW" guys in that I haven't completely lost my faith in the opposite sex though. I just know you can never know anything about someone else and it's important to both always maintain the upper hand and that you can never trust another person 100% because you can never peek inside their head. Hell, most of us can't event trust ourselves 100% - everyone on this Earth has dark tendencies.

I read a quote on Facebook recently along the lines of how accepting the dark things others do is much easier when you understand the darkness in yourself. So true.

(05-05-2013 10:16 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

I feel alot of people who try and do 'cool' stuff (like travelling, music festivals, sporting events, museums, art galleries, surfing, snowboarding, sailing etc) are ultimately just doing it to try and impress others. Even if there is nobody watching them.

Somehow the act alone builds up their self-esteem enough to make it worthwhile. As if they are starring as an idealised version of themselves in a movie of their lives.

Which is fine. But - it makes me laugh when 'cool' people think other people are 'uncool' for doing boring shit (in my case reading books and drinking bourbon). Since - whatever you may think of 'uncool' people - you can be sure they are doing what makes them truly happy. And with no ulterior motive.

Sorry - I'm not sure if the above makes sense to others. It is just something that occurs to me since my older brother is always tring to do stuff just for the sake of doing stuff.

And it often seems as well that people are more interested in the photos they will get for their Facebook page - than they are in the enjoyment they will get from the activity itself.

John Steinbeck would have agreed with you. I remember in "The Log From the Sea of Cortez" he wrote about how him and Ed Ricketts weren't the type of men to travel around the world in search of adventure because life was always an adventure for them and that men who did that were boring and dull. I agree to an extent, and reading that book I was struck by how they really did find interest and intrigue no matter where they were in the world.

But to some of us there's much more to traveling the world than looking cool. Just as many people do like to snowboard or surf. I too find great pleasure in reading and drinking burboun, but I think it's an oversimplification to imply that everyone who does these more "adventurous" things is just trying to rack up some kind of points. People like to experience the world in different ways.

You may have not been implying that but it seemed worth mentioning anyhow.

I have traveled with people who worry more about their Facebook photos than actually experiencing anything though. It's pathetic. At the end they go home with nothing more than proof they've "done something" while not having done anything at all. I was stuck traveling with a family member for a couple months earlier this year and she essentially spent all her time, both days and nights, in her room sleeping. Whenever I did get her out she took about two hundred photos and then off back to her room to upload.

Me, I get down and dirty and drink beer in dirt floor shacks with people I struggle to even communicate with. Or spend the entire day driving a motorbike through the countryside, taking in the scenery. Or eat things that give me the runs. Or befriend mamasans and learn about their lives. Now that's living.

I mean, sure, you could do those things in the states, but when you're abroad, even going to use the shitter becomes an adventure.

(05-31-2013 12:12 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

This doesn't just apply to MGTOW. I think we can all relate to it. But I want to post it since it is a nice example of the script that so many of us here on the forum are trying to avoid:

I know this video has been posted before. But it is an excellent one which acts as a motivator, in terms of what to avoid in life.

Damn I need to go drink a beer after watching that video. Ouch.

To be fair though, the part in the beginning when sex to her was just him rolling on top of her doesn't represent my experiences at all. Women are usually plenty excited about sex and in fact I find that after a long time together they usually want it more often than I do.

I've only experienced one woman I can think of who seemed uninterested in sex and she was just an undersexed person, I guess (believe it or not she was a stripper too lol).

Point being not sure how accurate or cookie cutter all of that video is. But yeah, definitely not a life any of us want to emulate.

(02-24-2013 08:29 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Out of the PUA, MRA, and MGTOW stuff
(pick up artists, men's rights advocates, and men going their own way)

MGTOW has the appeal.
it doesn't come off as skeevy like Pick Up.
It doesn't come off as bitter as MRA often sounds.

It's men deciding that they want to live their lives on their own terms. They don't exist to be the engine for society, to build society and to be taxed by said society.

It appeals to the independent and self-sufficient nature of men, without any baggage of the other movements.

WIA

All these acronyms are kind of retarded - I can't even keep up with them all. I had to go search online to find out what MGTOW even meant.

Shit, I've been "going my own way" since I've been about 17 years old, when I last had my heart really crushed by a woman and realized everything I'd been told about the need to treat them like "queens" was a lie.

I don't need a label to live life by my own rules. In fact, identifying too much with any label strikes me as dangerously close to letting a new group dictate how you act and think.

Men do need to belong sometimes, so I guess that's cool in a way, but such a move can get out of control if you lose focus of just doing your own thing and being cool with that. Belonging is best found among well-chosen friends not in some kind of internet movement. There's definitely potential for real world friendships with guys met on this forum though.

Check out all the old school writers like Jack Keroac, Steinbeck, Hunter S. Thompson, Bukowski, and Hemingway. I think these are good examples of intellectual men who lived life on their own terms and didn't pause much for what others thought. No apologies in their veins. No acronyms either.

Most fell to their addictions, but, eh, it is what it is. I think that was their choice as well.

[cardguy]

Wow - great post, Beyond Borders!

Also I haven't heard of that Steinbeck book - so I will definitely check it out.

Yeah - you make alot of interesting points. A very thoughtful take on things.

I haven't slept in 36 hours - so I will keep it brief.

About travel in general. Maybe I am overthinking it - it is just that alot of people I know are suddenly fascinated by Machu Picchu, The Killing Fields, Auschwitz, The Colosseum or Ayers Rock. Just because they happen to be on the itinerary of their holiday/travel plans. Whereas I think it is more intellectually honest to only search something out if you are genuinely interested in it. But perhaps I am just being an intellectual snob.

Still - the classic example is The Mona Lisa - where 99% of the visitors only go because they feel they 'have' to do it. Even though they have no genuine interest in art or that particular painting.

As for having fun. I would rather be in the most boring place in the world with a fun and interesting person. Than be in the most exotic place in the world with a boring person. And the problem with alot of travelling (and I have done a bit) is that you get boring people who think travelling to fun exciting places is the same as being a fun and exciting person. And that contrast is a little depressing. But again - I am probably just being a snob, I guess.

I always feel the most fun is when it is unplanned and unexpected. As such - I treasure the wild nights in unexpected and mundane places. As opposed to travelling thousands of miles for the sole intention of going wild.

Of course there is nothing wrong with doing both. But - I am always trying to challenge the images that are fed to us by media that if your life doesn't resemble a beer commercial then you must be doing something wrong.

[Beyond Borders]

(07-25-2013 11:18 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

Wow - great post, Beyond Borders!

Also I haven't heard of that Steinbeck book - so I will definitely check it out.

Great book. It's about a couple marine biologists sailing the sea of cortez to document the wildlife. Sounds boring but it's a fascinating read as Steinbeck had such a unique take on life and the world around him. The quote mentioned above was just mentioned before the trip to explain his take on travel; a good deal of the beginning focuses on the escapades him and his buddies found in their neighborhood down on Cannery Row in Monterey, CA.

Quote:

About travel in general. Maybe I am overthinking it - it is just that alot of people I know are suddenly fascinated by Machu Picchu, The Killing Fields, Auschwitz, The Colosseum or Ayers Rock. Just because they happen to be on the itinerary of their holiday/travel plans. Whereas I think it is more intellectually honest to only search something out if you are genuinely interested in it. But perhaps I am just being an intellectual snob.

Still - the classic example is The Mona Lisa - where 99% of the visitors only go because they feel they 'have' to do it. Even though they have no genuine interest in art or that particular painting.

As for having fun. I would rather be in the most boring place in the world with a fun and interesting person. Than be in the most exotic place in the world with a boring person. And the problem with alot of travelling (and I have done a bit) is that you get boring people who think travelling to fun exciting places is the same as being a fun and exciting person. And that contrast is a little depressing. But again - I am probably just being a snob, I guess.

I always feel the most fun is when it is unplanned and unexpected. As such - I treasure the wild nights in unexpected and mundane places. As opposed to travelling thousands of miles for the sole intention of going wild.

Of course there is nothing wrong with doing both. But - I am always trying to challenge the images that are fed to us by media that if your life doesn't resemble a beer commercial then you must be doing something wrong.

I definitely hear you on a lot of that travel stuff. There are plenty of us on the open road who think that whole approach to travel is pretty silly. The whirlwind travelers are the worst - people who think they can see a city or understand a culture in a matter of three days. I personally feel a month should be a minimum and a year or more if you want to even glimpse what the hell is around you.

That said, my life ends up crazy and exciting no matter where I go. Last time I went home I went to see the family member I mentioned before at university and she was all blown away by all these adventures I was having abroad, as if she could do the same if she booked a plane ticket. But she acts like a grandma in her twenties; it's hopeless for her.

Within a week of staying with her I had a series of crazy adventures right there in her college town that just left her jaw hanging open. As an example, one night I got stranded in town without a ride and instead of walking home went to this bar across the street and ended up crashing a Punjabi rap cd release party, of all fucking things. Next thing you know I'm dancing some wild Punjabi dance mid-center on stage with all these guys wearing turbans. Only white guy in the whole joint. You should have seen the look on her face when I told her the story.

I tried to explain to her that you just have to put yourself out there and walk into uncomfortable situations to see what will happen. So when she came abroad with me what did she do? Went out one night a week, if even, and ate Western food or common tourist dishes in the most well-traveled parts of town. Nagged at me to take her to all the tourist spots so she could wear out the button on her camera. Not only did she want to be boring but insisted I be boring with her and share every meal. After she complained about me ditching her every night, I even tried to teach her how to ride a motorbike, but she never brought herself to it.

It was sad. I really didn't even see the point as she could have learned more about Southeast Asia out of a book.

Now she's moved to another country to teach English, and that's cool - she even goes out a lot more now. But when I see her pictures it's just her and other English teachers for the most part.

What I usually do is point my motorbike in a random direction and drive until I find something worth finding. Look for a place where I am as out of place as possible and walk right into the center of it to sit down and order a beer or a plate of food. I spend far more time with locals in the places I go than I ever do with foreigners and have made wierd new friends that give me a lot of insight into myself, the world, and life in general.

In a way a miss out on a lot of interesting conversations I could have with intelligent people back in the states in my own language. But I just thrive on this shit so I shrug my shoulders and take a good conversation when I can find it.

I even like a lot of the big attractions sometimes - they got big for a reason and I find the history and background fascinating - but I kind of take it in on my own terms while visiting these places and have to bury myself among the locals as soon as I get out of there because the whole charade that comes with those big attractions just becomes nauseating fast.

I haven't just traveled. It feels like I've lived a few lifetimes in one already. In my own opinion, exposing yourself to exotic experiences really stretches time. It's like when you were a kid and the afternoons seemed to stretch for an eternity. For most people that goes away as you grow older and everything goes vanilla. But I think if you just keep hammering your brain with surreal experience, you maintain a lot of that stretched time dimension late into life.

You can do that at home if you're always actively seeking out new experiences, and I certainly admire men who know how to turn any setting or experience into a good time; this is just how I personally like to do it.