[RawGod]

If that blog post linked above is the best they have, MGTOWs are just losers.

They really think that retiring to their living rooms to beat off is going to "show those bitches"? They think it's going to be a mass movement that will shape the world? At most, a male marriage strike will have some effects demographically and economically, but those with testosterone will be shaping the world the same as they always have.

At the moment, hundreds or thousands of mainly young men are starting internet businesses and moving to places like South East Asia. Most of them are what we would call Red Pill. These are energetic and focused men taking their productivity away from Western societies. Yet even this is just a small blip in current culture. MGTOWs are just the bottom 20% of the gene pool failing to reproduce, as they always have. Nobody gives a shit.

[cardguy]

Yeah - I guess MGTOW are losers. That is sort of the point. It is a rebellion against all the expectations of what society expects from men.

Most MGTOW don't really care about starting a mass movement. Which is why there isn't as much writing in this area as there is in the PUA and the MRM areas.

Still - despite MGTOW not really caring about starting a mass movement. It seems that some kind of movement is underway.

Here in the UK - there are now 50% more single people than in 1996 (I just looked this stat up). And in Japan there seems to be a similar movement - http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p...lemma.html

To me it basically comes down to one thing. INTERNET PORN.

It is less hassle and you don't have to put up with the stress of dealing with women. I guess that makes us losers - but it is all pretty subjective. It is hard to say any one value system is better or worse than another. Particularly since you can sleep with the hottest girl you will ever fuck for about 100 bucks over in Amsterdam. I recommend it to everyone. Make a nice weekend of it.

I would love to spend my time gaming beautiful women. But it is hard to combine that (at least for me) with the life of an intellectual whilst also holding down a full-time job.

Anyway - it isn't true that nobody gives a shit. MGTOW scares women much more than PUA and MRA ever will.

MGTOW is about telling women to go fuck themselves. MRA is about trying to negotiate with women. And PUA is about giving women what they want - in the hopes of getting pussy.

The only position which removes all power from women is the MGTOW position.

[Acute Angle]

I think the term 'loser' is shaming language. A loser is a person who is failing by HIS OWN standards - fuck what everyone else demands of him.

[Blaster]

Good post, that one from Dissention, but here's where I get hung up:

Quote:

Even pretty, sexually skilled and otherwise reasonable women are not much fun to be around after you have finished having sex with them.

Maybe I just have a low threshold for satisfaction but I enjoy spending time with (some) women, especially when you've made them docile and happy with a good pounding, but even that isn't necessary. I'm not a highly social person but I definitely need some of it in my life. Some guys swear by having only male friends but I've preferred to have a mix my entire life. (friend zone girls don't count of course)

[Magic Bullets]

MGTOW is clearly a growing trend internationally, it is well recognized in Japan and governments would be in denial in Western countries if they ignore it. It is the backlash to Feminazism shows like Sex and City are still what many women live by.

[Faust]

Oh it scares the living shit out of the Japanese government. Anybody who thinks that MGTOW will never have an effect on anything, look up how scared they are by their declining birthrates and shrinking tax base.

There's no movement over there. No spokesman, no headquarters, no philosophies, no blogs or papers published. Just millions of men simultaneously and independently deciding that getting a wife and working your way up the corporate ladder is less rewarding than working for 12$ an hour, staying home and whacking off to porn and anime. And there's nothing anybody can do about it. You can force a man to work in the salt mines, but you can't force him to work hard and get a promotion.

[Vitriol]

(03-03-2013 09:32 PM)Faust Wrote:  

Oh it scares the living shit out of the Japanese government. Anybody who thinks that MGTOW will never have an effect on anything, look up how scared they are by their declining birthrates and shrinking tax base.

There's no movement over there. No spokesman, no headquarters, no philosophies, no blogs or papers published. Just millions of men simultaneously and independently deciding that getting a wife and working your way up the corporate ladder is less rewarding than working for 12$ an hour, staying home and whacking off to porn and anime. And there's nothing anybody can do about it. You can force a man to work in the salt mines, but you can't force him to work hard and get a promotion.

Much of this may be a consequence of the both the global economy and sexual marketplace becoming more complex and unforgiving. If it seems like too much effort just to have a place to stick your dick for a few minutes every now and then, many guys just won't bother. Others simply may not be talented enough to succeed in such a competitive world.

In the U.S. there are probably a lot of guys who are de facto in the situation you described just because they weren't able to get a good job or don't invest much time chasing pussy.

[bacon]

I really dont get the japanese thing. shit those guys are a short flight from some of the best pussy paradises in the world yet they sign on for permenant celibacy?

[Lemmo]

(03-03-2013 09:44 PM)bacon Wrote:  

I really dont get the japanese thing. shit those guys are a short flight from some of the best pussy paradises in the world yet they sign on for permenant celibacy?

They generally aren't celibate. Prostitution is huge here. A lot of these guys are just getting a quick HJ from Chinese or Thais at the local massage parlor.

[Lemmo]

(03-03-2013 09:32 PM)Faust Wrote:  

Oh it scares the living shit out of the Japanese government. Anybody who thinks that MGTOW will never have an effect on anything, look up how scared they are by their declining birthrates and shrinking tax base.

There's no movement over there. No spokesman, no headquarters, no philosophies, no blogs or papers published. Just millions of men simultaneously and independently deciding that getting a wife and working your way up the corporate ladder is less rewarding than working for 12$ an hour, staying home and whacking off to porn and anime. And there's nothing anybody can do about it. You can force a man to work in the salt mines, but you can't force him to work hard and get a promotion.

Yeah, like giving women the vote, you can't put the genie back in the bottle no matter how harmful to society. Once it is widely understood that the cost/benefit analysis argues against marriage and kids and there is no cultural pressure to have a family, few rational men are going to do it.

[Vitriol]

This is from that article cardguy posted above:

Quote:

Fukasawa contends that while some grass-eating men may be gay, many are not. Nor are they metrosexuals. Rather, their behavior reflects a rejection of both the traditional Japanese definition of masculinity and what she calls the West's "commercialization" of relationships, under which men needed to be macho and purchase products to win a woman's affection. Some Western concepts, like going to dinner parties as a couple, never fit easily into Japanese culture, she says. Others never even made it into the language—the term "ladies first," for instance, is usually said in English in Japan. During Japan's bubble economy, "Japanese people had to live according to both Western standards and Japanese standards," says Fukasawa. "That trend has run its course."

Funny how Japanese men are instinctively rebelling against the dysfunctional "commercial relationships" that come from Western culture where men are expected to be financial slaves and constantly buy shit for women.

I don't understand why American men who realize there's something wrong with that kind of arrangement are such an anomaly. There must be an even higher degree of social conditioning and control going on here than most people realize.

[cardguy]

Of course - there are no rules or agendas in the MGTOW movement. If you get a chance to nail a hottie then go for it. MGTOW simply means that this goal is no longer the most important part of your life.

And again - the paradox is that - sometimes the less you want it. The easier it is to get.

I imagine my 'game' is pretty good since I openly tell girls I don't give a shit what they think - and for some that provokes a better reaction than the one someone else might get who has spent all night trying to make them laugh.

Indeed - a line I sometimes use when chatting to a broad is that 'I don't want to sleep with her since it would be a waste of a good jerk-off.'

It is ironic that my 'game' is much better now than it was in my blue-pill years, when I actually gave a shit about trying to pull girls. But I am too busy doing other stuff to really care. The extra utlity value of sleeping with a hot girl isn't worth (for me) the extra time and stress it takes versus hookers and porn. It is a simple cost/benefit analysis. I am constantly short of time as it is - and I just don't have the desire or the time to go chasing round bars (or foreign countries) chatting up girls.

But for those who do - then good luck to them. I think it is cool that guys are being pro-active in getting what they most want from chicks.

And on a sidenote. Whilst MGTOW may not have produced many interesting blogs or writers. It is worth remembering that throughout history most of the great art, music, science, literature, mathematics and technology was produced by guys who would today be classed as MGTOW. Just something to think about...

One last point. It is because of MGTOW that women don't like porn. They throw out bullshit about it being demeaning to women or encouraging sexual violence. But the truth is the same as it is for most workers - they don't want to be made redundant by technology.

[cardguy]

Here is a different way of thinking about things.

MGTOW is for red pill thinkers. Who are not necessarily PUA's or MRA's.

So - the big difference between a MGTOW and a beta male - is that the MGTOW guy has taken the red pill.

So whilst a beta male might be happy settling down with a '5' or a '6'. Most MGTOW would not.

-------------------------------------

[Apologies for all the acronyms, use of the word 'beta' and use of the words 'red pill'. It feels like I am playing world of warcraft or something.]

[Magic Bullets]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoSyeHptdsk

[solo]

Basically, feminism is one big shit test. Individually and as a collective, most women try to extract as many benefits from society (men) as possible. They want to see how much they can get away with. They won't ever stop pushing for more and more from the betas who contribute the most, while of course fucking the alphas.

Once you give them the right to vote, it's a slippery slope in my opinion.

Forum member speakeasy made a great point on another thread, which I will quote for its eloquence here:

"Here's an idea, why don't women stop nagging men and start their own damn companies and only hire their fellow women for high salaries, and then they can have all the maternity leave and equal pay that they want."

Recently I've been looking up a bit about the so called MGTOW movement. While its merits as an alternative or complement to game are debatable, I think there is one aspect which all red pill guys should consider and that is the idea that you shouldn't let women have access to your money indirectly or directly unless you are fucking them.

If you are working and paying taxes in a feminist country, you are contributing to the problem. And if you do this while being sexually frustrated in any way, I'm sorry but you're a sucker. Basically, you are paying for the economy to keep going, which it barely is anyway, while the women you desire are fucking someone else.

I don't claim to be the first one to point this out, but I think it's something more guys should consider.

Relevant: http://www.returnofkings.com/5351/mgtow-...-than-mras

[King Solomon]

as we know, MGTOW stands for Men Going Their Own Way.

Thing is, "their own way" could be anything. Could be fishing with his buddies. Could be traveling. Could be whoring. Could be porn and anime. Could be going hobo and riding the rails. Could be picking up chicks and then dropping them on their ass. Could be that "going his own way" means going to San Fran to learn BDSM and become a Dom all decked in leather training (nasty) chicks to be his slaves and beating them while they thank him for it.

What MGTOW is *not*, is a man living his life for someone else such as a wife or society at large that need worker bees to feed off of. It is a man throwing off any societal norms that he took in spite of his interests. Some MGTOWs might be happy to have a house in the suburbs and a mortgage, as long as he gets to have his boat in the garage and lives near a fishin hole. Some guys never want to be beholden in any way, to any thing, ever. It's not this or that, specifically. It is WHATEVER IN THE HELL HE WANTS AND FUCK YOU IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT

Calling them losers betrays your own insecurities. Calling them losers makes you a hater. MGTOWs aren't haters- they just don't give a shit enough to even remark or reply. They do what pleases them and serves them, and defy anyone they wish to defy.

I like MGTOWs. No one has leverage on them. How can you be down on a guy for casting off people's attempts to manipulate him?

my 2 cents.

[Icarus]

(03-19-2013 07:10 PM)King Solomon Wrote:  

They do what pleases them and serves them, and defy anyone they wish to defy. I like MGTOWs. No one has leverage on them. How can you be down on a guy for casting off people's attempts to manipulate him?

Reminds me of that dialogue in The Dark Knight:

Quote:

• Bruce Wayne: Targeting me won't get their money back. I knew the mob wouldn't go down without a fight, but this is different. They crossed the line.
• Alfred Pennyworth: You crossed the line first, sir. You squeezed them, you hammered them to the point of desperation. And in their desperation, they turned to a man they didn't fully understand.
• Bruce Wayne: Criminals aren't complicated, Alfred. Just have to figure out what he's after.
• Alfred Pennyworth: With respect Master Wayne, perhaps this is a man that *you* don't fully understand, either. A long time ago, I was in Burma. My friends and I were working for the local government. They were trying to buy the loyalty of tribal leaders by bribing them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. So, we went looking for the stones. But in six months, we never met anybody who traded with him. One day, I saw a child playing with a ruby the size of a tangerine. The bandit had been throwing them away.
• Bruce Wayne: So why steal them?
• Alfred Pennyworth: Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
  

[cardguy]

I second what King Solomon said.

Which is why I am happy to embrace the term 'loser' if people feel like calling MGTOW that. Since MGTOW literally couldn't give two shits what people think of them. Indeed - I enjoy any hate sent our way, since it suggests we are doing something right.

[w00t]

The whole concept of "loser" is a load of rubbish anyway. Its simply a semantic tool to control men and their behaviour. Dont wanna get married? Youre a loser. Dont wanna work 40+ hours a week? Youre a loser. Dont wanna do thousands of approaches to bang mediocre chicks? Loser. Pay for prostitutes? Loser. Notice how its always men that are labelled losers and never women, no matter how much they fuck up their own lifes.

This is where the whole PU community fucks up big time aswell, as they still base their self-worth on the approval of woman and buy into the whole femcentric bullshit. Learning game is fine but if you define your own masculinity by how much approval from worthless cunts you can get, youre still a slave to pussy. You just get laid more than the normal AFC. Again theres nothing wrong with learning game but there is EVERYTHING wrong with looking down on your fellow men if they decide not to partake in this fucked up modern dating scene.

Thats what I like about MGTOW they dont give a shit and dont feel the need to constantly shame other men and manipulate their behaviour. They promote a sense of comraderie and an attitude of self-serving behaviour. If you wanna learn game and pump and dump chicks fine, go do that. If you cant be bothered and rather play video games, thats cool too. Do whats best for YOU and fuck what other ppl are trying to tell you. In PU circles its always "getting pussy is #1 priority in life and if you dont get laid or pay for it youre a loser" and thats just bullshit and ultimately playing into the womens agenda, as they control access to pussy and hence have the power of making you a loser/winner. Do you want to give woman that power over you? I know I dont so fuck this bullshit.

[solo]

w00ts post above made me think of A. McGinnis' post on ROK about effortless attraction and focusing on yourself and let the women come after you.

While I think the occasional girl will fall on your lap if you go your own way thanks to your aloofness or whatever, I do wonder if refraining from approaching is going to lead to more or hotter girls. I guess it could if you work on things like lifestyle and social status etc. You can also argue men are slaves to pussy by nature and that approaching is therefore as natural as eating.

I think the best puas teach NOT to base your self-worth on the approval of one one women or to buy into the femcentric bullshit though, but rather to focus on self-improvement and going after multiple women while not giving a fuck about what any individual woman think of you.

[bacon]

@w00t well said.


In my opinion a guy should not care about his friends sex life unless he is dating/married to a bitch who is clearly ruining his friends life or your relationship with him. That is the only time I have ever shamed my friends about their choice in women.

[Asaxon]

Woot, I could not agree more. As discussed in the Toronto post, widespread PUA can lead to female egos growing exponentially and culture and gender relations becoming even more tilted. Of course, there is some hardwiring in all this ( females as choosers, males as suitors) but the more alternatives men have ( porn, p4p) the lower the amount of power females hold over us due to demand for their services and companionship decreasing. From an individual's point of view PUA leads to a rat race for ever decreasing quality of prizes ( fatter, more entitled etc) while widespread Mgtow will force females to improve or risk being left over as fewer and fewer men chase them.
On a societal level, I think the west is beyond repair and needs a hard correction to be a viable society again. Consistently punishing the most productive elements and selecting for procreation of the weakest via welfare, wic, PC laws etc etc simply is not sustainable. Anyone buying into this sinking ship ( paying taxes, supporting feminism etc that way) just delays the inevitable return to a more sane / natural order.

[cardguy]

Just came across this video - which I thought was very good:

It is a discussion touching on the economic consequences for society of MGTOW. Once men disengage from women - alot of the consumer spending by men (which is done to please the women in their lives) which underpins our consumerist economy falls away. With dire consequences for the economy. This could also be one of the factors behind the 20 year economic depression in Japan - since Japan was the first place to have a large MGTOW movement.

The video also touches on the fact that this is why women get such a good deal in divorce cases. Since the money she is awarded will be recycled through the economy through more cash being wasted on dumb shit.

[cardguy]

MGTOW wisdom from Clint Eastwood:

NOTE: The last line is a little unclear... Here is a 'cut and paste' of it from one of the comments below the video.

------------------------

"Women when I want em and none with the name of Hogan". That was his Charecter in the movie I guess!

------------------------

[cardguy]

Here is a good critique of the Mens Rights Movement I just stumbled across:

----------------------------------
MRA's are, IMO, dipshits and clowns. They're trying to out-fem the fems. Not gonna happen. Using my war analogy again, they're fighting in a 4th generation war using 3rd gen warfare tactics. Trying to beg the cunts and .gov for their rights doesn't work. It never has. You have to SHOW a muthafukka you mean business, and make him hurt until he gives you what you want. In this context, that means things like exactly what MGTOW does, and the things Captain Capitalism (Aaron Clarey) says: reduce your production to just what you need to survive, withdraw your emotional support and attention from cunts, disengage from society to whatever extent you deem suitable for you, and let the whole rotten house collapse in on itself.

Even though I think they're clowns, I don't hate MRA's. If nothing else, they distract the enemy by giving them something to focus their attention on. Meanwhile the leaderless resistance that is MGTOW is destroying the frame of the house that marxism and all its offshoots have rotten and eaten.
-----------------------------------