[RichieP]

(01-17-2012 12:41 AM)wolf Wrote:  

I didn't want to deviate from the topic in the What's your favorite novel?

Speaking of Houellebecq's "Whatever" what I really got is most people are depressed/have no meaning in life because nobody loves them. Love is conditional from women so after you realize that how can you survive knowing that?

Have many one night stands?

Have flings/LTR's/Fuck buddies?

Are we basically trying to fill a void?

Psychologists and therapists have studies these issues for decades. By now the smart ones are getting a pretty good handle on this stuff. Depression / nihilism all stems back to childhood issues - neglect, conditional love from parents/caregivers, etc.

You can heal the parts of yourself that carry that pain/burden - people have got over depression, permanently. Some of the work that's being done on these issues today is amazing.

One amazing result from modern cutting-edge therapy is it's not the void that's "us" at our core... it's just a burden attached to a Part of us, and that part takes over the driving seat from time to time (it "blends in" and 'becomes' you for a while). With focussed work you can a) heal that part of it's burden and b) help it to trust that it doesn't need to run the show so much, and that you're an adult now and you can choose to feel even-keeled, optimistic and loved (easy to say, takes work to get there). Once you get to that place, without the void dominating your life, you dont need the external unconditional love nearly so much (although of course you naturally value sex, intimacy, connection, etc... you just get less dependent on it to feel alright)

Personally I dont get depressed, really much atall. I think because I got alot of love and attention and relatively unconditional affection growing up.

But I do get very stressed, anxious, uptight, worried. That's the other side of the spectrum. Again which has roots in childhood, and which I know can be healed too, and I intend to do so.

[Caligula]

(11-09-2012 02:26 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

[quote] (01-17-2012 08:42 PM)Caligula Wrote:  

....Traditional social relationships are replaced by much weaker bonds. Relationships are increasingly ruled by markets (broadly defined). The freedom that affluence brings (to all classes) means female hypergamy gets a free rein. That's one reason not to get riled up about it; these developments are almost inevitable.

"The goal of capitalism is to reduce all human interaction to the cash nexus." - Leon Day d. 2011

I think when something is that pernicious, it's like a fucking acute meningitis infection attacking intimacy-- you have to consciously, in a focused way, confront and overcompensate at least for a time to prevent takeover and emotional death from its infection.

Of course, that type of romanticism isn't for the slut-a-day crowd. I admit you have to be nuts to give a shit. I prefer that form of insanity over the other form of death.

This is an important distinction: it's not a goal of capitalism to 'reduce all human interaction to the cash nexus', it's a biproduct. Economists would call it a negative externality; Marx got that one right.

[cardguy]

I have spent about a year trying to find this film online. Impossible.

Came close to getting the video - and converting it to DVD.

But alas - a miracle! The film is now available online. Just spent a couple of hours reminding myself how strange, dark and interesting this wonderful film is:

http://viooz.co/movies/21389-whatever-ex...-1999.html

I think the film has something important to say to alot of us.

[Giovonny]

(09-04-2013 12:44 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

I have spent about a year trying to find this film online. Impossible.

Came close to getting the video - and converting it to DVD.

But alas - a miracle! The film is now available online. Just spent a couple of hours reminding myself how strange, dark and interesting this wonderful film is:

http://viooz.co/movies/21389-whatever-ex...-1999.html

I think the film has something important to say to alot of us.

What is so special about this story?

what did you learn?

Could you do a brief, little, summary for us..?

Thanks

[cardguy]

Well - I first caught the film (in French with English subtitles - in case that puts some of you off) on TV, without knowing anything about it, back in 2003. I think the film came out about 5 years earlier than that. And the book it is based on - was about ten years old at that point.

And I was still stuck in a 'blue pill' way of thinking. Filled with confusion and doubt. And a vague hope that the lies I had being fed by TV meant that my life would end up cool - like what happens to thems people on TV. Duh...

And watching this film - was like waking up with a massive hangover - after years of swilling the shit that is pumped into us by pop culture.

In order to get better. You have to first reach rock bottom. And this film helped me see how shit things really are - for alot of people.

"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."

Maybe the film won't have the same impact for those on the forum. But back then it shook me in a weird way. A bit like when I heard Radiohead or Sigur Ros for the first time.

The two main guys in the film are quite interesting. One is 'red pill' (who reacts by essentially going MGTOW) and the other is 'blue pill'.

What is interesting about the 'blue pill' guy is the hope and optimism he has. His optimism is torturing him and driving him to despair.

John Cleese once summed this up very well:

So - the film is essentially a mood piece and an eye-opener. As such - I am not sure what it can teach us exactly. Since - most of us here are pretty 'red-pill' already.

Still - along with 'American Beauty' and 'Fight Club' - I feel it deserves to be classed alongside those films in expressing a change in the men/women dynamic which had being unfurling over the past 15 years.

And it is a dynamic that this forum is very much a part of.

[Player_1337]

Michel Houellebecq is amazing. I first discovered him when reading H.P. Lovecraft: Against the World, Against Life and The Elementary Particles.

[Therapsid]

I read Houellebecq's The Possibility of an Island. Found it to be intermittently engaging, but it did not succeed as a novel.

Perhaps the original French version, La Possibilité d'une île, is a masterpiece.

The English translation at any rate was mediocre as literature, albeit of interest from a philosophical and political perspective.

[Caligula]

(09-04-2013 11:06 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  

I read Houellebecq's The Possibility of an Island. Found it to be intermittently engaging, but it did not succeed as a novel.

Perhaps the original French version, La Possibilité d'une île, is a masterpiece.

The English translation at any rate was mediocre as literature, albeit of interest from a philosophical and political perspective.

What did you find mediocre about it? The plot? The style? The thinking?

[Therapsid]

(09-05-2013 06:08 AM)Caligula Wrote:  

(09-04-2013 11:06 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  

I read Houellebecq's The Possibility of an Island. Found it to be intermittently engaging, but it did not succeed as a novel.

Perhaps the original French version, La Possibilité d'une île, is a masterpiece.

The English translation at any rate was mediocre as literature, albeit of interest from a philosophical and political perspective.

What did you find mediocre about it? The plot? The style? The thinking?

The plot and pacing. You ever read a novel wanting badly to like it, but just couldn't? That was my experience. I take very seriously the recommendations of people I admire.

I had heard about Houellebecq and read interviews with him beforehand, so perhaps I had unrealistic expectations. He seems very world weary, cynical, and insightful.

I think his perspective on aging is especially interesting. Here's something he said in an interview with the Paris Review:

"I am persuaded that feminism is not at the root of political correctness. The actual source is much nastier and dares not speak its name, which is simply hatred for old people. The question of domination between men and women is relatively secondary—important but still secondary—compared to what I tried to capture in this novel, which is that we are now trapped in a world of kids. Old kids. The disappearance of patrimonial transmission means that an old guy today is just a useless ruin. The thing we value most of all is youth, which means that life automatically becomes depressing, because life consists, on the whole, of getting old."

Anyway, I read one English translation of a major French writer's life's works.

I approach literature with a willingness to *not* enjoy what I'm reading - so I'll read him again. What was your favorite novel of his?

[iknowexactly]

(10-29-2012 02:13 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

Perhaps the most useful definition of a whore is a woman who has lost the ability to love.

...
Whenever older people ask me why I'm never in relationships, I will simply respond that young women have lost the capacity to love. That will perk their ears up...

Great to hear someone actually willing to look at their emotions and discuss them. The tendency of PUA people to describe women as something one operates like a car reflects the same dehumanization as you describe in women, who to some degree as you argue are now incapable of love. They cannot love, they can only associate and therefore operate people as appliances.

I wrote a parody of this in something I called California Love Poem Haiku.

"I love you,
as long as it does not interfere with my goals"

Alienation. Why does it happen? Nothing happens by chance.

Who benefits? Some have said Marx had the diagnosis right but the prescription wrong.

As I watch society change over the decades, something a late lay philosopher said to me seems to cut through and provide an integrating explanation of the various Facewhore, smartphone, divorce rape problems.

"The goal of capitalism is to reduce all human interaction to the cash nexus."

Think of Nineteen Eighty Four, when Winston's loyalty and love is destroyed because it would interfere with his loyalty to Big Brother.

People must be separated from each other, with a paywall in between them, to maximize the power of those who are good at that-- the Zuckerbergs, the Goldman-Sachs.

But that must be masked. THe society in Nineteen Eighty Four could not exist long because it is too blatant.

The doublespeak must be implicitly embedded in the society, and your servitude sold as freedom, such that you are happy to serve it.

It's been referred to by different labels over different eras, by Marx as Capitalism, William Burroughs as The Combine, Foucalt as Techno-Power, the Wachowski's as The Matrix, Orwell as Big Brother, and very immediately now seen as Facebook/Facewhore ( I feel always obligated to denigrate it.)

Every day as I ride my bicycle around my college town I have a repeating alienating experience.

I near a young girl waiting for a crosswalk sign to change, or waiting or a bus, ANYWHERE there's a little break in time where there would be a moment of opening, where she could look out and see someone else.

Instead, 80% of the time they look down into their phone. It is the freedom of using their texting, yes? It is a BENEFIT they are getting, right?

What is sold as freedom is slavery.

[Caligula]

(09-05-2013 11:33 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  

(09-05-2013 06:08 AM)Caligula Wrote:  

(09-04-2013 11:06 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  

I read Houellebecq's The Possibility of an Island. Found it to be intermittently engaging, but it did not succeed as a novel.

Perhaps the original French version, La Possibilité d'une île, is a masterpiece.

The English translation at any rate was mediocre as literature, albeit of interest from a philosophical and political perspective.

What did you find mediocre about it? The plot? The style? The thinking?

The plot and pacing. You ever read a novel wanting badly to like it, but just couldn't? That was my experience. I take very seriously the recommendations of people I admire.

I had heard about Houellebecq and read interviews with him beforehand, so perhaps I had unrealistic expectations. He seems very world weary, cynical, and insightful.

I think his perspective on aging is especially interesting. Here's something he said in an interview with the Paris Review:

"I am persuaded that feminism is not at the root of political correctness. The actual source is much nastier and dares not speak its name, which is simply hatred for old people. The question of domination between men and women is relatively secondary—important but still secondary—compared to what I tried to capture in this novel, which is that we are now trapped in a world of kids. Old kids. The disappearance of patrimonial transmission means that an old guy today is just a useless ruin. The thing we value most of all is youth, which means that life automatically becomes depressing, because life consists, on the whole, of getting old."

Anyway, I read one English translation of a major French writer's life's works.

I approach literature with a willingness to *not* enjoy what I'm reading - so I'll read him again. What was your favorite novel of his?

Atomized and Whatever are my favourites.

That's a very insightful quote. I've been reding Christopher Lasch on narcissism and he makes similar points about how people who have lost touch with the past can no longer see the future and begin to live for instant gratification and temporary ego-boosts.

[Acute Angle]

(09-06-2013 01:22 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

What is sold as freedom is slavery.

[Sp5]

I'm reading "Platform" now. It starts in Thailand, on a group tour.

The first-person protagonist makes a lot of good observations, but I'd like to put my fist in his face.

[Sp5]

(09-06-2013 05:03 AM)Caligula Wrote:  

I've been reding Christopher Lasch on narcissism and he makes similar points about how people who have lost touch with the past can no longer see the future and begin to live for instant gratification and temporary ego-boosts.

Lasch had contemporary society nailed. Too bad he died so young. Or maybe not - he'd be more mortified now.

[iknowexactly]

(09-04-2013 12:44 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

I have spent about a year trying to find this film online. Impossible.

Came close to getting the video - and converting it to DVD.

But alas - a miracle! The film is now available online. Just spent a couple of hours reminding myself how strange, dark and interesting this wonderful film is:

http://viooz.co/movies/21389-whatever-ex...-1999.html

I think the film has something important to say to alot of us.

Thanks so much for finding and recommending this film.

I was just hanging out with my bandmates the other day, we are in the emasculated Feminist Chernobyl Fallout zone in the SF bay area.

They are tall, late 20's, smart, artistic, college degreed-- and never get laid!?

Women are a cipher to them and they act as if they do not have penises.

I made a joking comment to that effect and they sadly agreed.

However, I am not so knee-jerk about saying "all is hopeless in America/West" although I am over 50 and think I need to evacuate the fallout zone to find a wife.

There is a reaction to this paralysis of Love that The Combine has effected: Young girls feeling lost without attention.

In the attempt to direct all behavior to enriching of the already rich, young men are emotionally sterilized, wither neutered like my friends or reduced to the caricature of passionate, romantic masculinity that is the PUA

But women are more primitive. They can can be easily fooled intellectually, but emotionally they have an alertness that The Combine has great difficulty short-circuiting. Their wombs remind them monthly that life is short, heartless, and that they have a very strange mission.

Girls far too young for me occasionally look up from their CombinePhones with a beseeching look.

There are blind spots in Big Brother's camera coverage.

[cardguy]

This film reminded me of something.

The struggle to get laid is something nearly all men (except celebrities?) experience when they are growing up.

And - for alot of men - the struggle never ends.

These are pretty intense and character building experiences for men.

Yet - it is a struggle - that not a single woman in the history of the world has ever experienced.

To me - this is one of the biggest differences between men and women.

I know this is old hat. But the film above would be difficult for alot of women to understand - since it deals with a scenario they have never experienced.

Now - perhaps - most guys could dumpster dive and pull a '2' or a '3'. But - most women - no matter how ugly - still get the occasional shot at guys who are '7s' or '8s'.

It is sad - and it is the fault of men. I really wish guys wouldn't subscribe to the "any hole is a goal" mentality - since it fucks up the mindset of women.

[Giovonny]

(09-04-2013 01:40 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."

I first heard this quote maybe 15 years ago.. I think about it all the time.

I promised myself that I would not live a life in quiet desperation.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the film. I definitely will see it. I enjoyed "American Beauty" and maybe I should start listening to Radiohead..

(09-06-2013 01:22 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Great to hear someone actually willing to look at their emotions and discuss them. The tendency of PUA people to describe women as something one operates like a car reflects the same dehumanization as you describe in women, who to some degree as you argue are now incapable of love. They cannot love, they can only associate and therefore operate people as appliances.

I wrote a parody of this in something I called California Love Poem Haiku.

"I love you,
as long as it does not interfere with my goals"

Alienation. Why does it happen? Nothing happens by chance.

Who benefits? Some have said Marx had the diagnosis right but the prescription wrong.

As I watch society change over the decades, something a late lay philosopher said to me seems to cut through and provide an integrating explanation of the various Facewhore, smartphone, divorce rape problems.

"The goal of capitalism is to reduce all human interaction to the cash nexus."

Think of Nineteen Eighty Four, when Winston's loyalty and love is destroyed because it would interfere with his loyalty to Big Brother.

People must be separated from each other, with a paywall in between them, to maximize the power of those who are good at that-- the Zuckerbergs, the Goldman-Sachs.

But that must be masked. THe society in Nineteen Eighty Four could not exist long because it is too blatant.

The doublespeak must be implicitly embedded in the society, and your servitude sold as freedom, such that you are happy to serve it.

It's been referred to by different labels over different eras, by Marx as Capitalism, William Burroughs as The Combine, Foucalt as Techno-Power, the Wachowski's as The Matrix, Orwell as Big Brother, and very immediately now seen as Facebook/Facewhore ( I feel always obligated to denigrate it.)

Every day as I ride my bicycle around my college town I have a repeating alienating experience.

I near a young girl waiting for a crosswalk sign to change, or waiting or a bus, ANYWHERE there's a little break in time where there would be a moment of opening, where she could look out and see someone else.

Instead, 80% of the time they look down into their phone. It is the freedom of using their texting, yes? It is a BENEFIT they are getting, right?

What is sold as freedom is slavery.

I believe that we are already living in an Orwellian "1984" type of society.

*****

As far as college girls looking at their phones..

Ignore the phone and open anyways!

Say -- "excuse me" -- followed by:

"where is main st from here?"

"is the university this way?"

"what time is it?"

"you look nice today"

"how do you like that new iphone"

This is usually enough social engaging to at least create a quick conversation. A quick conversation is a possible opportunity.

You have to shock her out of her frame and into yours.

I want to come over there and game with you. I think that school is a goldmine.

Keep chatting to them and being as charismatic as possible.

[iknowexactly]

(09-08-2013 02:40 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

As far as college girls looking at their phones..

Ignore the phone and open anyways!

Say -- "excuse me" -- followed by:

"where is main st from here?"

"is the university this way?"

"what time is it?"

"you look nice today"

"how do you like that new iphone"

This is usually enough social engaging to at least create a quick conversation. A quick conversation is a possible opportunity.

You have to shock her out of her frame and into yours.

I want to come over there and game with you. I think that school is a goldmine.

Keep chatting to them and being as charismatic as possible.

Thanks a lot for your encouragement.

Visualizing that advice, I think it's certainly true much of the time-- often I look at them checking their phones-- with a forlorn look on their face-- they're hoping someone is reaching out to them.

It's different sometimes when they look tense and are furiously tapping at their controller-unit. It does not look inviting.

[iknowexactly]

(09-07-2013 03:57 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

This film reminded me of something.

The struggle to get laid is something nearly all men (except celebrities?) experience when they are growing up.

And - for alot of men - the struggle never ends.

These are pretty intense and character building experiences for men.

Yet - it is a struggle - that not a single woman in the history of the world has ever experienced.

I watched almost all the film, but it was so dreary it became comical and a caricature. They thing with the inept guy was he was unable to laugh at himself at all and was obviously clinically depressed. If you work in the mental health field as I do, it's like watching someone walk around with an oozing green infected sore on their arm ignoring it. Or like seeing a fat girl 100 bs overweight with a large non-diet soda.

OK, you're defiant and brave about being sick, or "different", but that doesn't obligate others to cater to your illness/weakness. It's even harder for women to approach than it is for us. It's insane to expect them to do it.

If you don't take care of your mental health, you can't expect others to put themselves out and act as your therapists once you're THAT far gone.

[Giovonny]

(09-08-2013 02:48 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

often I look at them checking their phones-- with a forlorn look on their face-- they're hoping someone is reaching out to them.

Yes, they often enjoy being snapped back into the physical reality.

(09-08-2013 02:48 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

It's different sometimes when they look tense and are furiously tapping at their controller-unit. It does not look inviting.

-Wait for them to finish finger typing
-Pounce aggressively when you see them not finger typing

I often slow my walk or speed it up to catch a girl at an opportune moment.

I just met a girl by asking her about her phone reception.

[Basil Ransom]

(09-07-2013 03:57 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

Yet - it is a struggle - that not a single woman in the history of the world has ever experienced.

Women's struggles are different. The difficulty of their struggle, as compared to men's, varies, across times and places.

Houellebecq is careful to recognize the challenges both sexes face.

(09-07-2013 03:57 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

It is sad - and it is the fault of men. I really wish guys wouldn't subscribe to the "any hole is a goal" mentality - since it fucks up the mindset of women.

As a man who fucks no holes but the one formed by your thumb and index finger, you're in little position to judge.

[cardguy]

Ha ha - good one!

[cardguy]

Anyone watch the film? Would be interested to hear any views.

The film is not available in English on DVD. So make the most of the following link while you can!

http://viooz.co/movies/21389-whatever-ex...-1999.html

[JimNortonFan]

Read the book during my blue pill days, don't remember much. Couldn't get it then. Would have been resistant to the message.

Just watched the movie. Disturbing. The scene where Harel lays the Red Pill on Tisserand will either make you cry or rage or both. It's just rage against the Universe though.

Houllebecq's analogy between neoliberal economics and the post feminism sexual marketplace is sheer genius.

You work so you can avoid being the guy on the street corner begging.

You Game to avoid becoming Harel or Tisserand.


BTW, the actor Jose Garcia plays Tisserand. He has the Beta thirst look down so well he deserved the French version of the Oscar for the role. His furtive eye movements are perfect. The looks on his face after rejection are perfect.

Is the ending cheesy or the only way to go? As Wizard said in Taxi Driver "You got no choice, anyway. I mean, we're all fucked. More or less, ya know."

Might as well get laid some.

[cardguy]

The main guy (who is red pill - unlike his blue pill sidekick) is also the director of the film.