I commented on this thread a while ago but I feel like I have another few cents to give.
As a one-time incel I know how much these guys are suffering.
When you are trapped inside your own mind like a mental prison like this, escaping is excruciatingly difficult.
I wasn’t familiar with the term incel when I was at that age and certainly wasn’t venting all this vitriol in public forums besides.
But I know very well what it is like to be inside the heart of darkness in the specific way incels are. Many people face horrible challenges or experiences in early life. This one is very particular and misunderstood.
There is a good reason certain men end up being virgins until age 25 and beyond. If you look at a man who calls himself an incel and is in his early or mid twenties or beyond, probably he was a bit like I was.
Off the top of my head:
-Terrible time throughout school. Bottom of the pecking order. Had a horrible resentful attitude towards other kids yet a burning yearning to be accepted by them. What Jordan Peterson would dub ‘bottom lobster’ and all the fucked up serotonin levels that entails
-Would probably score very highly in neuroticism. Extreme sensitivity to negative emotion. Again, related to being ‘bottom lobster’ as your body is viewing social exclusion as being a threat to your life. And this never truly evaporates.
-If you scored low in compassion additionally then in extreme cases you have outliers like Elliot Rodger who had no empathy for anyone. Luckily I am quite high in this trait.
-Highly introverted nature to begin with and easily drained by human interactions (which are often negative and reinforce this). Avoidance of human interaction leading to underdeveloped social skills
-Related. Spent a LOT of time in his own company whether at school or at home overindulging in video games. During a time or window(s) when your brain’s social skill abilities are meant to develop to maturity
-Terrible terrible TERRIBLE style and dress sense. A result of being out of the social loop and ignorance. Poor posture reinforced by lack of confidence learned over the years. The kind of guy both men and women avoid at university, the period your parents tell you will be ‘different’ from school. SMV of a 3 or 4. I would have given myself a 4.5 to be generous because I was not fat but actually quite ripped.
-Depression and anxiety as others as mentioned. This was something that although a moderate to seldom a large problem in my teenage years slowly self-corrected in my early 20s due to competing in powerlifting and doing martial arts (as well as escaping from school). I think a lot of incel issues could be fixed with a punch to the face at a muay thai class or a single tap-out on a bjj matt.
-Mental illness such as aspergers, again as mentioned by others. I consider myself very lucky I don’t have any of these. This I think would have made any kind of success impossible for me personally.
-Lack of natural looks and good genetics. I used to refer to myself in my head as ‘genetic trash’ and until age 25 gave up entirely on women. The combination of being 5’7, puny in stature, balding beyond fixing by age 22 with a very weak jawline (the incel jaw you could say) combined with virtually nothing but negative interactions and feedback from women made me genuinely believe this. When I think about it, it is a sheer miracle I somehow turned shit around.
-A stream of negative experiences with women. At school this entailed being ignored and even mocked by the girls. At university this meant watching all the cute girls you desired being monopolised by chads. But worst of all was this highly toxic nightlife culture. I don’t know how many 100 negative interactions and rejections I faced at night clubs throughout my young adulthood but the consistent momentum of bad experiences caused my subconscious to believe I had no chance at all. And for a time, a burning hatred of young women.
I actually consider myself very lucky these days.
Not just because I managed to enjoy some success over the years.
But because I didn’t have even worse issues that no doubt a lot of these incels on that forum clearly have.
For example, a home life as poor as their school/university life. I had very good parents and have always had an excellent relationship with my mother. Often times I wondered if my disappointment with women I meet was caused by the realisation they don’t compare at all to her. Maybe it was a strong driver for me to go abroad to meet women as well.
And don’t get me started on mental illnesses. I feel the most sympathy for them as I said.
The good news and truth is, all it takes is one success to cease being an incel forever.
I give male virgins a pass for considering themselves as such. If they are 20something and have no positive reference experiences to ‘change their mind’ that they not genetic garbage incapable of ever sleeping with a woman I understand. As I said that was me.
But once you get that first success it all changes. Because you now know for the rest of your existence, you can do it.
Besides that the only other instances I would give you a free pass to consider yourself an incel is if
-You are mentally disabled. Aspergers, autism etc.
-Burn victim or severely disfigured. Wheelchair bound.
And that’s about it!!
You might be wondering how did I, the ‘incel’ switch things around and have a notch count of 35 by the age of 30 in 2019?
Well obviously I read about game from countless sources and rejoiced in the knowledge that if 99 girls reject you out of 100, this is normal and to be expected.
Indeed even the very best such as Krauser, Good Looking Loser and Paul Jenka failed to bang 93% or something of the women they approach.
But aside from all that.
How I fixed it:
-I managed to get on top of my anger. This is the most important and the one I believe most incels struggle with the most. That guy who approached 1000 girls and got 0 results already decided that was going to happen. Anger is a severe form of pain and suffering and I really hope these guys find a way to cool it as I once did.
-Taking part in some kind of competitive sports as I mentioned I think would help a lot. A lot of these guys have never had a physical confrontation in their life and probably have severe delusions of grandeur. Getting ragdolled on a wrestling matt will fix that very fast.
-One thing to note is that unlike MOST incels, I did try to get laid. But only at nightclubs as this is what my very small group of friends liked to do at the time. And of course I was so unattractive I couldn’t even get dates with 3s and 4s from plenty of fish at the time. I estimate I drunkenly approached 500 plus slags at clubs over the years not getting even a single make-out or positive interaction. Not too hard to believe given what a Darwinian, savage environment clubs can be, especially when you are a male ‘3 or 4.’ I would say this is the number 1 reason I ended up harbouring such misogynistic feelings in my early 20s.
-I would say to incels and indeed most guys who are having horrible times at clubs – stop going to them! There are better ways to meet women (shitty sexual marketplace aside). Ceasing torturing myself by going to clubs trying to run mystery method game with bad style and dress in a year where that style of game was long out-dated played a huge part in the gradual evaporation of my anger toward women.
-Killing porn addiction. Most incels are (I would guess) porn addicts. A direct result of idle hands and determination to avoid rejection no doubt. As well as a lack of sex obviously. I had this issue big time. Getting rid of this addiction is EXTREMELY difficult. Conquering it was probably my greatest achievement in life up to that point aside from passing my masters degree.
-One way you could do it which I did (whilst following no-fap) if you are financially ABLE! And if it is LEGAL! Is visit escorts. For all its faults, the one thing the UK does right is it legalises prostitution. For £100-120/hour assuming you visit a social proofed ‘working girl’ will get you a ‘GFE’ girlfriend experience. The girl will treat you like a prince. You will lose your virginity which will be a huge weight off the shoulders. And you will be able to gauge your progress with performance. The first few times I did it I couldn’t get it up at all. But over the course of a year (during which I transitioned from university into a reasonably well-paid offshore gas job) I saw many girls, some of whom were 9s and 10s and hotter than the hottest girls I ever managed to get from day game or tinder (and who treated better than any girl you will meet will) and my porn problem was permanently solved. It served its purpose well. Otherwise, just summon your inner strength and no-fap as many have successfully pulled off here.
And the day of retribution (a little different to Elliot Rodger’s lol)
I took the chance on the idea that ‘women abroad are different or better.’ 5 years ago, I remember so clearly the night it all ended. I had read Bang Poland and often joked with my flatmate about how one day I might consider it. I would have joked about that idea a couple of years prior. I had a string of bad dates with 3s and 4s from plenty of fish. Then that one blonde bitch at that bar flipped me the bird when I tried to talk to her. I booked my flight to Poland that same evening.
And I kept visiting Poland on and off ever since.
I had my first girlfriend who I met during that first trip which lasted over a 1.5 year period. It started off with a bang and ended with one too (a different kind of bang). I learned so much about women, relationships and what I am willing to accept or not in the future.
When that ended my red pill journey entered a new phase. I felt empowered for the first time to take day-game seriously. Previously I had done it only intermittently and always preferred it as it is a great way to have consistent positive interactions with women if nothing else.
I approached religiously. I spam approached a lot and often felt foolish about it but accepted the fact that as a beginner it perhaps was the best thing I could be doing. I knew that gaining experience from day game is a bit like a facebook pixel gathering data for a sales website. When you have bad interactions, its like Roosh compared it to burning your hand on a hot pan. Your brain remembers and you start to develop a sense of which girls are good or bad targets. A very slow, dynamic process which requires some degree of intelligence and data gathering.
I ended up doing 1150 or so approaches that year in 2016. Mostly in Poland. It was a rollercoaster of positive and negative (mostly negative) emotions where I had multiple severe alcohol fuelled nervous breakdowns after several cluster chains of rejections. But I got 3 day game lays, 1 in Poland and 2 from a much shorter trip to Ukraine. At the end of the year I did a big trip to Brazil where I got another 2 lays from day-game, 1 being a same-day lay on New Years Eve.
All the while I was hitting tinder hard, constantly improving my pictures and style. Banged about 12 girls that year including the hottest girl I ever banged (without paying for it) in Prague. Spent a few grand on a new wardrobe and the services of a style consultant
I was already jacked but got even more so. Finally accepted defeat in the hair department, shaved it all off and once I got an ear-pinning surgery, became a proud bald man.
I invested in several coaching sessions. This including having Kyle Trouble (with John Bodi listening in) audit my dates in field (this is where I struggled and still struggle the most). I also had dedicated day-game training from one of Tom Torero’s former students. I met both Torero and Krauser by sheer chance on the streets of Warsaw actually.
I can never remember being so happy at the end of any year in my life. I felt like I had utterly destroyed my inceldom forever. Whenever I feel particularly low I try to visualise those times.
Fast forward to 2019 and I am struggling a lot these days.
Tinder has become COMPLETELY useless overnight. Despite getting a ton of DSLR professional photos done and spending (too much) time on my Instagram I got only 1 lay in 2018 and nothing since.
To give you an idea how bad it got, I banged 11 girls in 5 weeks in Mexico City in 2017. This year I went back for a fortnight and got none. Sounds crazy and of course I was inviting those girls directly to my place but still.
Though I have laid pipe to 9 girls from day game, I have now done over 1700 recorded approaches (with the best ratios by far coming from South America and Mexico). If you remove all the south America approaches from the equation, we are looking at a success ratio of 1/280 in Europe (mostly Poland but occasionally in Ukraine too).
It feels like it is getting worse all the time and my confidence is the lowest it has ever been. I find myself starting to drift back to some of the highly toxic and defeatist ‘incel’ thoughts I once had. A less stable mindset and worsening vibe.
One thing I can say with 1000000% certainty is THANK GOD I started moving my arse back in 2014 when I did. If I had waited till I was 30 I would be fucked.
I don’t think I would have made it. Things today are just so much harder than they once were. If I managed to enter that top % of men demographic (whatever it is) at least temporarily and in certain global sexual marketplaces, I have since slipped out. This is in spite of me increasing my value in every way as a man over the years.
If you were to put the me from 5 years ago in 2019 I think there is a far higher chance I would fail.
Its also telling to note I have never banged a British girl or any girl in my own country. Ever. To be fair I have done less than 100 approaches in any British city (I am now changing that I am feeling more and more than Warsaw isn’t much better than British cities these days) and have never had a tinder bang here either. And not for lack of trying. And this is the new and improved me. That is why I humbly disagree with people who say ‘if you can’t get laid in the west you have no chance in Ukraine etc.’
If you were to take most of these incels who are where I was emotionally (probably a lot worse in some cases like that guy who got 0/1000) at age 19 or 20 then I would wager they have no chance.
The thing is, the market is what it is. If you can’t hack it, its because you don’t reach the thresholds the market demands. Either you are good enough or you aren’t.
In the end my social skills will never be particularly good. Because that part of my brain never fully developed. They are FAR FAR FAR better than they once were and am thankfully not on any aspergers spectrum. But they are not great.
In the end my looks are handicapped. Sure, I use height insoles to walk at 5’9.5 rather than 5’7. I am bald and despite the head tattoo and having the right head shape for being bald and have the muscles and broad shoulders to rock the look, I will still be screened out a lot. I have the ‘incel’ jaw which no amount of getting lean and chiselled is going to fix. I could potentially get a jaw implant or beard transplant if I really wanted.
But the truth is I will always be at a disadvantage to the average reasonably handsome 6’2 dude with a full head of hair and decent jawline. Of course, it is more than just looks. It is status, game and confidence. But it still counts for a huge amount. They are in that upper range of the male SMV that I can never reach unless I became famous.
I have more than a couple of male friends, some of whom are quasi-players who absolutely SLAY it. Even today. I know one guy who only started day-gaming this year and banged the first 2 girls he approached (out of 10 I believe). His background was about 50 tinder bangs, with a super high conversion rate. Could be luck but let’s not kid ourselves. The only real difference between us is his much superior looks and historically strong date conversion rate (probably helped by said looks). He actually went with me to Mexico and achieved what I did 2 years ago but can’t do now, banging 8 girls in a row from tinder.
The best I can do is improve myself continuously as a man. Make more money. Become self-employed as a business man. Ideally multiple companies. Optimise my look constantly. Develop my personal style further. Become a better conversationalist. Improve the quality of my approaches i.e. less spam approaching and picking better targets. Split testing all the different variables than influence the success of an approach. Consider traveling to new countries, hunting for those last remaining truffles of better opportunities.
I have somehow managed to retain a reasonably attractive fuck buddy in Poland for 2 years now. A constant reminder that no matter what happens, if I put in enough effort, no matter how many 1000s of approaches, I will always have it ‘in me’ to find and keep a ‘7’ in my life sooner or later.
Probably forget about settling down and having a family though. As I anticipate I will be far less motivated to put that kind of work in to meet a reasonably decent women, the fact that the marriage and divorce laws are now so monstrously brutal toward men; and women no matter how good they appear can't be trusted to not abuse them AND not having enough options in the sexual marketplace to induce competition anxiety that will keep your girl in line... it seems like a battle that cannot be won. Getting the occasional casual sex encounter seems perhaps to be the absolute best a man, probably any man, former incel or not can hope to achieve these days. Maybe one day I will feel differently who knows.
I am not saying all this to rant or complain about the unfairness of the sexual marketplace (jeez don’t we have enough of that already?) but merely to give you the detailed opinions of a former incel given all of my experiences and rather unique feat of escaping from that heart of darkness known as being an incel.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee. Let's all try not to be as black pill and nihilistic as Nietzsche
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