[Zona]

(12-08-2017 04:30 PM)spokepoker Wrote:  

(12-08-2017 03:57 PM)Zona Wrote:  

Granted, we don't know exactly what happened prior to this video, but I think the cop handled this horribly just based on this footage. Why the hell didn't he just have this guy lay face down on the floor with his hands behind his head? It would have been much easier and safer for the guy to follow those instructions, and the cop could have apprehended him easily.

His instructions to crawl were absurd, and I can see how this guy might have instinctively reached back to pull his shorts up without even thinking about it due to fear muddying his thought process. Shit is fucked up.

Here's 18 minutes of it, not sure how far back you want to see.
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5f6_1512716304

Yeah, seeing the whole video makes it even worse. It's unreal how poorly the cops handled this situation. Very sad.

[Delta]

The "crawl towards me" order is especially dumb considering that the cop had just told the guy not to put his hands down for any reason. That kind of ambiguity is the absolute last thing needed in such a tense situation.

The proper course of action here is so obvious. Just walk up to the guy and pat him down while he keeps his hands up.

No reason to believe the idiot cop set out to kill anybody, but he did handle the situation in a totally incompetent and negligent manner that led to the kid's death.

I'd have said no to murder, yes to manslaughter.

[Delta]

(12-08-2017 06:38 PM)Zona Wrote:  

(12-08-2017 04:30 PM)spokepoker Wrote:  

Here's 18 minutes of it, not sure how far back you want to see.
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5f6_1512716304

Yeah, seeing the whole video makes it even worse. It's unreal how poorly the cops handled this situation. Very sad.

On second thought, after seeing the long video, I lean a tad more toward murder.

For what seems like an eternity, the cop stands there fifteen feet away from the suspect, barking weird and ambiguous orders like a drill sergeant with an assault rifle pointed at him. The idiocy is so spectacular it makes me want to laugh before I remind myself again that someone died over it. I've never seen anything like this. Just fucking walk up to the suspect and pat him down. It's so simple. I don't see the slightest rationale for instructing the suspect to crawl around on the ground. Prolonging and complicating the interaction like this leaves so much unnecessary room for something to go wrong.

It should be noted that I have no police or weapons training, so I'm curious if this looks as ridiculous as I think to those who do.

[tarquin]

(12-08-2017 07:12 PM)Delta Wrote:  

The "crawl towards me" order is especially dumb considering that the cop had just told the guy not to put his hands down for any reason. That kind of ambiguity is the absolute last thing needed in such a tense situation.

Officer ambiguity is the cause of too many deaths in tense situations. Unfortunately, many incidents result in two officers giving conflicting commands which results in the death or injury of the suspect. For example, one officer will say "put your hands on your head" while the other says "put your hands up." Not knowing what to do, and in a stressful situation, the person often ends up confused and uncertain what to do resulting in scared/nervous fidgeting. The police officers, trained that every person is a threat to personal safety, experience a learned increase in adrenaline to a situation that otherwise seems routine to observers. This causes the police officer to suffer from a narrowing of vision and inability to reason. Seeing the person fidget, they interpret these movements as sporadic attempts to get a weapon. The officers then fire. It's quite vicious. I'm not on that side of the blue line, but the cynic in me believes that officers are trained or encouraged to give conflicting orders. I wouldn't have reason question their motives except for the videos showing police officers beating completely subdued suspects while also yelling, "stop resisting."

I also recommend the work of Radley Balko as previously mentioned by others in this thread.

[iop890]

(12-08-2017 04:36 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

The dude is no soy. He has the cold, dead eyes of a sociopath.

*soyciopath

[Repo]

This is what he has edged into his rifle

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Looks like murder to me.


I agree that he looks like a cop that has ruined people's day, everyday, for a long time. The dust cover is just more proof of that.


Also bullshit that this guy is trusted with full auto while the rest of us are stuck with semi-automatic.

[MMX2010]

I don't think it's murder, but I don't think this guy should be a cop anymore, ever, anywhere.

[Gusamaso]

Straight up murder, if you ask me.

[MMX2010]

(12-08-2017 10:39 PM)Gusamaso Wrote:  

Straight up murder, if you ask me.

You need to prove that he intentionally set up the situation so that the kid would reach for his waist, so that the Asshole Cop could shoot him.

You wouldn't get a jury to unanimously believe this, especially when the He's Just An Asshole defense exists.

[Kona]

The cops father was an internal affairs cop in the Mesa police. He is now a lawyer in that county.

I hope the Justice Department gets involved in this like they do all the others.

Aloha!

[TravelerKai]

(12-08-2017 09:03 PM)Repo Wrote:  

This is what he has edged into his rifle

Interesting. If a civilian has a skull on their concealed carry weapon some prosecutor will claim premeditated intent, if you have to use your handgun. And to prove murder you have to prove premeditation....

[spokepoker]

It's just a dust cover. I'm more concerned with the bullshit he was pullin in trying to arrest someone.

[Kona]

(12-08-2017 11:01 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

(12-08-2017 09:03 PM)Repo Wrote:  

This is what he has edged into his rifle

Interesting. If a civilian has a skull on their concealed carry weapon some prosecutor will claim premeditated intent, if you have to use your handgun. And to prove murder you have to prove premeditation....

Yep.

What good comes out of putting that on your weapon? Is it to remind you that you are fucked if you use it? Doubtful.

Actually, I really really hope the Justice Department gets to this. The anti BLM crowd and the white nationalist types should really be pissed if they don't.

This could be the case that settles the argument on this crap. These guys do dirty shit and get away with it because of corrupt systems and who-you-know nonsense.

I would not be upset if I see Trump on TV saying "I have a son, and he looks like Daniel Shaver." I don't think anybody would.

Hopefully something good comes out of this.

Aloha!

[Paracelsus]

Two main thoughts:

(1) The cop to my mind has a much higher duty of care towards the guy since the cop holds most of the power in that particular situation. He's told Shaver that if he doesn't follow instructions, they'll kill him (in not so many words). He has firepower superiority, he has the "drop" on both suspects, he has more guys around him, and he keeps telling the suspects to shut up, which is going to contribute to the communication problem that got Shaver killed. If you're going to assert under threat of death that your instructions must be followed, you have a common sense duty of care to make sure those instructions can be followed to the letter, you must make sure the person can survive by simply following instructions. And you have less right to assume that your intended meaning was passed along; someone with a gun on them is not going to be able to process complex concepts, and Shaver couldn't copy the woman's movements because he had his face down on the ground. This is doubly so with someone under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

But--

(2) It cannot be denied that one of the reasons cops are triggerhappy is because every person they want to talk to or arrest in America is potentially armed and a cop-hater, and there have been enough incidents of suspects committing suicide by cop -- that is, people who try to shoot or endanger an officer and thereby bring death down on themselves -- that at some point some fool in a training course has probably told the guy "If you're in doubt, shoot, and let God sort them out." Or indeed suspects pulling guns on officers when it looks like they're going to be arrested, even when the person has no objective chance of shooting his way out.

The test for murder is proof beyond reasonable doubt. If I'd been shown that tape, I would have had to convict of manslaughter, though really the more appropriate penalty is really to

(a) force the officer to visit Shaver's grave every day for the next five years; and
(b) string up the officers who recruited Shaver, trained him, psych evaluated him, and put a loaded automatic weapon in his hands, right down to the clown who assigned him as the lead officer on that assignment.

[deerhunter]

Fuck that cop for screaming all those stupid orders at that guy under penalty of death if he messed up. Just walk over and handcuff him while he is face down with his hands on his head. For the people who think he deserved to die for not following the orders perfectly, try to understand that when under extreme stress and stimuli not everyone's brains operate calmly and execute perfectly like yours and Peyton Mannings. A lot of people have a cascade of hormones in their brain when in these situations that over rides everything. Something as simple as tying your shoelace would be fucked up in that situation. The cop created a situation that led to the murder of the guy. This was even more fucked up than the Philando Castile shooting in Minnesota when a cop pulled him over and shot him in front of his family.

To the poster who thinks vets should not be cops I have to disagree. The armed services are way more professional than most any police department in the U.S.A. I remember reading about a case about a cop in West Virginia last year who was a returned Afghanistan vet. He responded to a call where a guy with a knife was trying to commit suicide by cop. The officer deescalated the situation. He was fired for not following protocol and shooting the guy. Fucked up. https://www.npr.org/.../military-trained...t-this-...

[Ibagemyoutagem]

in my opinion its a tough call but objectively it was pretty fucked when the guy put both hands behind his back for a split second, That's where I thought he deserved to get shot because rule # 1 is keep your hands visible because of thats the only way your a threat. So after that, it set up HUGE red flags in my head and without a doubt in the officers head. I'm shocked he got to live after that in that high pressure situation it sounded like. and when he reached.... I can see how that situation could've been handled better . however looking at it for what it is, he had been told multiple times with a gun pointed right in his face to follow orders or there will be consequences, idk why the fuck he was reaching with both hands behind his back FOR any reason. but the nail in the coffin was when he reached down when all he was to do was crawl.

[Leonard D Neubache]

I'm not even watching the video. I'm starting to feel like I've seen way too many people killed gruesomely for someone who's never actually been in a war.

If we want to learn anything from this, I would give this piece of advice.

Trigger happy cops are liable to shoot you for any twitch of your muscles that deviates from their imagined "perfect form of response to their orders".

What cops have an extremely hard time justifying is shooting you when you're utterly still.

If you've "assumed the position" and the cop(s) start barking additional orders at you that require you to move again then feel free to tell them "if I move you'll shoot me so I'm not moving."

There is no instance other than negligent discharge where an officer gets away with shooting someone who is prone or on their knees with their hands outstretched or on their head. They know this inherently. You are not living in communist Russia. They are not permitted to execute you for failing to follow a lawful order.

If you make it to a position of compliance then stay there. Let the motherfuckers scream until their throat bleeds. Eventually they'll get tired of it and come to you, and the second another cop approaches you the trigger fingers of the rest of them are going to slack off a bit. They might get a bit rough with you but it's a small price to pay for not having to participate in a life and death game of Simon Says.

[Kona]

(12-09-2017 12:22 AM)deerhunter Wrote:  

responded to a call where a guy with a knife was trying to commit suicide by cop. The officer deescalated the situation. He was fired for not following protocol and shooting the guy. Fucked up. https://www.npr.org/.../military-trained...t-this-...

He had deescalated the situation until other cops came in and shot the guy in the head and killed him. I don't remember the name of that one and your link doesn't work for me.

(12-09-2017 12:46 AM)Ibagemyoutagem Wrote:  

in my opinion its a tough call but objectively it was pretty fucked when the guy put both hands behind his back for a split second, That's where I thought he deserved to get shot because rule # 1 is keep your hands visible because of thats the only way your a threat.

Who's rule is rhat? Thomas Jefferson and the Constitution of the united States? Disobeying cops is not grounds for the death penalty. Im gonna disobeying a bunch of speed limit signs drunk as shit tonight. Maybe if they try to pull me over I'll hit the gas, maybe i won't. Should I be shot? When did it become such a crime to disobey authority?

I just don't get why that cop with that advanced of an assault weapon and all it optics and technology could not have waited a millisecond to actually see a threat before pulling the trigger.

This is premeditated murder.

Aloha!

[Leonard D Neubache]

This same issue came up maybe a year ago when those fucking idiot cops negligently discharged into an old black dude while he was lying on the ground begging the cops not to shoot the retard (literal) nearby who had no idea what was going on.

It's fucking moronic, and sadly the elites are all too happy to keep pushing in this direction because pitting the public against the cops puts the cops on the side of the elites.

Back then I made the same suggestion I'll make now. If American cops don't want to end up on the wrong side of a civil conflict then they're going to have to put away their fancy second hand war rifles and start thinking in other directions.



American cops are already starting to find out the hard way that when you piss of a segment of the community enough that they go from reacting to your presence to actually ambushing you then you are officially fucked.

Many of these dickheads have been on a power trip for so long they think they're invincible. But the reality is that all it takes is for a couple of guys to call 911, make an inconspicuous complaint, and when an officer arrives to investigate they step out from behind cover and hose him down with .223 rounds.

These cops are not soldiers. They are not rolling 5 strong in an armoured vehicle moving to a military objective to sweep and clear. Most of the time they're wearing level 2 armour at best with no helmet and packing a 9mm pistol. Heaven help them if the civilian population ever decides they're a problem, not a solution.

[Highpool]

Quick fact drop, this guy



is the shooter and the guy who went on trial, but he was not the guy barking instructions. Instructions came from an unnamed cop who was standing by the elevator, you can't see him in the bodycam video.

[Leonard D Neubache]

(12-08-2017 04:11 PM)Kona Wrote:  

...
Waiting that millisecond, and realizing how much you have the person out gunned could have been cleared up by a simple class. Let's relate that,to Michael Brown. A cop with all the whackin sticks and bullet proof cars shoots someone for apparantly trying to steal his weapon. Now, simple logic says if someone is grabbing for your gun, they don't have a gun of their own.

If someone walks into my office right now, and tries to snatch my 25 ounce Busch Beer, I will then assume they don't have one of their own.

I hope that makes sense.

Aloha!

While I agree with most of what you're saying on the thread, I'm not sure what your logic is with this.

If some dickhead wants to grab your gun then it hardly matters if he has one of his own. He's seeking to deprive you of a deadly weapon. There's no reasonable presumption that upon attaining said deadly weapon he's going to politely throw it away and continue fighting bare-knuckled.

If someone wants to grab for an officer's gun then personally I have no problem with a division of marines turning them into paste with fifty caliber belt fed machine guns.

[Hypno]

The totalitarianism of our police is a real issue, and its a shame that the terrorist BLM group hijacked this issue because its an issue that matters across races.

In Atlanta a few years ago, the police faked a probable cause warrant, busted down the door of the wrong house, and shot and killed a 92 year old woman.



Kathryn Johnston (June 26, 1914 – November 21, 2006)[1] was an elderly Atlanta, Georgia, woman who was shot by undercover police officers in her home on Neal Street in northwest Atlanta on November 21, 2006, where she had lived for 17 years. Three officers had entered her home in what was later described as a 'botched' drug raid.[2][3][4] Officers cut off burglar bars and broke down her door using a no-knock warrant.[5] Police said Johnston fired at them and they fired in response; she fired one shot out the door over the officers' heads and they fired 39 shots, five or six of which hit her.[3][6] None of the officers were injured by her gunfire, but Johnston was killed by the officers. Police injuries were later attributed to "friendly fire" from each other's weapons.[2][3][6]
One of the officers planted marijuana in Johnston's house after the shooting.[7][8] Later investigations found that the paperwork stating that drugs present at Johnston's house, which had been the basis for the raid, had been falsified.[3] The officers later admitted to having lied when they submitted cocaine as evidence claiming that they had bought it at Johnston's house.[7] Three officers were tried for manslaughter and other charges surrounding falsification and were sentenced to ten, six, and five years.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting

[Paracelsus]

(12-09-2017 03:49 AM)Highpool Wrote:  

Quick fact drop, this guy



is the shooter and the guy who went on trial, but he was not the guy barking instructions. Instructions came from an unnamed cop who was standing by the elevator, you can't see him in the bodycam video.

Very important fact drop, but the only thing I think that changes on my view would be that the guy shouting the instructions should have gone in as an accessory to manslaughter. He's the guy shouting that if the dude doesn't follow instructions, he's going to die. That's an implicit order to kill the dude if he doesn't obey the commands, which order the jackass holding the gun seemed over eager to carry out.

[CJ_W]

(12-08-2017 04:28 PM)Mage Wrote:  

(12-08-2017 04:16 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  

(12-08-2017 04:13 PM)Atlanta Man Wrote:  

(12-08-2017 03:52 PM)speculator Wrote:  

In the context of all lives matter, what are your opinions regarding this song?

I like that song quite a lot!

I lasted 20 seconds. I only like rap that's whitey-hating.

It is. In second half the black guy reps in answer and convinces the white guy to concede his views.

The video masquerades itself as promoting peace and equality between whites and blacks with the hug in the end, but trough subtle means you know it's not seeking a compromise but rather seeking to convert white people to accept liberal opinions.

The subtleties:

1) Black guy knocks off Make America Great hat and white man ever picks it up - symbolizing that he abandons his pro-Trump and pro-America views.

2)Body language - The white guy nods in agreement to black guy multiple times during his speech and in the end. The black guy never does that.

3)White guy makes himself vulnerable first with embracing the black guy. The black guy answers to that with hesitation as if not truly sure it's worth it. It's clearly how liberals would like to see the solution - white men forgiving first again and again and black people being coy about it and acting as if they "accept" the condolences of white men.

4)In the end there is a text with a clear Marxist message implying that that religion is evil, property is evil and race and sex are somehow unnatural social constructs.

I'm listening more to the words than the video itself, the only point that the black guy really mentions that makes since is the whole job/economy issue. . .but he doens't know what the white folks know about that.

ALL races have been affected negatively by the bad economy caused by 20 years of bad policy (glass stegal repeal[clinton]) Trillions of dollars being spent on the Iraq war Plus part one of the Tarp Bailouts (Bush), Continuation of the Tarp bailouts and too much spending and government overreach, and the influx of immigrants who are acting as competition with ALL AMERICANS for jobs (Obama). The black guy(according to joyner lucas) doesn't know this, he thinks it is (white people) that are doing this, when Trump himself says that there is a huge swamp in the government stealing from the people .

Thing is, the black guy could figure all this shit out just by spending an hour or two browsing google. I kind of think Lucas put the verse in to make it seem like he was bashing the white man, but in reality showing the smart people watching and listening, that he knows EXACTLY what's going on.

One thing that Lucas DOES mention that is good is the whole White Nationalist thing. I kinda think that he frequents these boards, as a LOT of people here have mentioned that a lot of the WN's are really just blaming black people for their problems instead of working on solving their own problems (especially with women). I mean sure, some of what the WN's say makes sense and is legit, but most of what they say and most of WHY they say it is so completely off base, that you can tell that they are being manipulated to hate or that there are a lot of shills trying to act as "Brown Shirts" to oppose the "Red Shirts" on the left.

Unfortunately, one thing that the black guy verse misses is what the white guy is talking about. . .which is really what a lot of older black people talk about more than anything - I'm dead serious here. I've only heard older black Men talk about the things the white dude was talking about while I was growing up, mostly from my church.

Also, I personally have experience with this, I started working at 13 during summer, and have always held a job since, this was while I was growing up during the 90's while living in one of the roughest neighboorhoods in the country. Even though I had a few bad run ins, and family issues for most of my life growing up, I still managed to get decent grades, speak standard American English (only using slang in private with friends - not work friends either) got myself a couple scolarships to go to school, went to college AS FAR AWAY from the hood and Los Angeles as I could, and worked two jobs for four years while getting my degree. One of my jobs was working as the stocker for the college cafeteria, having to get up at 4am to receive the food and drin kshipments from the suppliers, put those goods in their respective places in the large freezer and refridgerator, pull the foods that the cook put a list out for me the night before, prepared the buffet areas, mopped the kitchen and refridgerator areas as well.

I would go to class at around 7:30 AM (had an 8am class since it matched with that schedule) came back to my dorm, did my studying, then WENT BACK to that cafeteria to clean and close down, taking out the trash, cleaning the toilets etc etc. . .did this for a bout two years while dealing with a silly white roomate who was always smoking pot, and bitching at his parents because they didn't give him something. . .even though they were paying for ALL of his schooling. Then, I became an RA (which was about two jobs' worth of work on it's own) THEN finally found an easier student job as a computer lab monitor. . .although I still had to do closing at 1am in the mornings, but I had lots of downtime so it wasn't that bad. I found a place off campus close to the school and kept my head down and did what I needed to do.

If *I* can do all of this and escape the clutches of the hood, so can the average black kid on the street. I mean seriously, I saw all the bad shit happening and said "well, I don't want THAT to happen to me" and made sure it hasn't. In my opinion, there is no excuse for blacks to have so much trouble right now. There are no Jim Crow laws holding us back, and infact, if blacks, as a collective people decided "hey, we're going to go to the library and study." Crime would drop dramatically.

I think Lucas actually knows all of this though, he's been in the rap game for quite sometime, (Ive been following him) He's kind of the anti rapper rapper, he's pretty much opposed to all the stupid mumble rap trap shit going on now. The fact that Lucas mentioned ANYTHING AT ALL about what black people need to change, is amazing in itself.

The last person to do that, and do it constantly?


Bill Cosby.

And we all know what happened to him don't we?


Anyway, Here's a GOOD Lucas track (using n the beat from Migos' Mask On) barbarically dissing and declaring war on the the mainstream rappers (because mainstream rap right now is pretty weak, except for Kendrick)

Another track with some criticisms of the current rap game:

He's a lot smarter than people give him credit for.