[Otzmatron]

Here is my analysis of Kiev and Ukrainian women and culture in general so far. Have been here for nearly two months. This is my second time in Kiev.

Most of the numbers you'll get will be solid as opposed to Budapest or Poland. It isn't difficult number farming if you have decent daygame skills. Women during the day definitely outnumber men. The opposite can be said of night life which is scarce, more expensive and sparsely located throughout the city. It is not very good although there are few places which can be fun. Caribbean for instance, where quality is low and hookers seek pray, but still, it is such a silly place which appeals to my sarcastic personality. Sorry Babushka can also be fun, if you like dancing game and venues with tighter face control which means fewer groups of men looking to get laid. Banka bar is a good place for cheap beer and take dates to. All bars close early. The Bar is another good spot on weekends before midnight, where a good ratio can be found with expensive but good cocktails.

As opposed to masculine Hungary, Ukraine has a matriarchal bonobo culture in a matriarchal resource seeking economy, where women rule the roost and men are jaded. Women date around endlessly, rotating dates and some having special cheaper phones for sponsors. A quick swipe through tinder, if you set the age variable to 18-29, will show you that there is a large number of older women who are unmarried and still dating around. Women have openly admitted to me that they have had one night stands, and still the dating charade continues. This is the bell curve average of course, you may try and beat the odds, if you wish.

Daygame has overwhelmingly more volume than nightgame. I find it redundant paying a cover charge just to get a number. You can get a make out, but it won't make a huge difference by and large, you will still have to go through with Ukraine Game. Once you get the number, because ONS is very scarce here, Ukraine game begins. Ukraine game, as opposed to Prague or Budapest, is funny, polite provider game, but with a caveat. The caveat is that it is a game. Girls here are not virgins and are not necessarily looking for a boyfriend. But they will definitely date you and other foreigners till kingdom come. It doesn't mean you will not bang, but be prepared to date long term. You cannot speed up the process significantly by quickly going through the dates. It has to appear random, and 'natural'. She has a few tattoos but remember, she is a maiden. Flirt mildly, gradually escalating through the dating process and don't be pushy. After a huge make out be prepared to call it a night and politely kiss her goodbye.

Mothers here are very strict with their daughters, strict meaning jealous and hateful of their youth. It is not uncommon seeing a mother relatively detached from her young daughter, strolling around in heels virtually clueless as to what to do with her offspring. Just more future competition she and other women will despise. Sometimes you will see a family eating in the mall cafeteria, have seen that precisely twice.

The quality of the girls is very high. Local men can be heard making fun of Westerners, imitating their astonishment in a heavy Russian accent, 'dude so many cheeks[chicks]'. Kiev is not a slutty city, but it is absolutely sexualized. The upside is that it is peaceful, no large groups of men shouting drunkenly and overall chaos as opposed to BP. The downside is the city's clear lingering soviet atmosphere with streets being cold dead after midnight. With more women than men, at least strolling the streets, and a despising matriarchal atmosphere, Ukraine game is born. Ukraine game is pretending that all women are virginal maidens, until the opportunity for sex arises which can take several dates, depending on the age and quality of the girl. The Ukrainian wife for a foreigner industry is not helpful either, which aggravates the situation. All girls will ask you 'what you doing in ukraine?'. All girls consider foreigners on vacation low value. And if your alpha kino game is absolutely on point she will respect it but statistically it won't do much.

Escalating on a girl often means very little, and even heavy make outs and grinding will not result in a bang. Seeking alternative hipster venues and English speaking girls is an option, but not a sure way out of Ukraine game. Game is game everywhere, right? No, Ukraine game is uniquely protracted and the emphasis is on ASD, you have to strike a balance between flirty and a gentlemen type behavior (which is deliberately contrived) where you pull out chairs for her or at times behave like a friendly castrated boy. If a girl has invested enough in you, she will continue to respond even after you leave and when you come back, she will be there waiting for you. However she can also drift off, and it certainly doesn't mean she won't date around and bang others. When you meet her again, Ukraine Game commences immediately and she is a maidan, remember. It is likely that she would wait even after a few months. This is another advantage for people who plan to frequently visit Ukraine. Wear a condom in case your maiden has contracted crabs.

Poland, Budapest and Prague are a much safer bet if you are looking for a ONS. As opposed to these cities, responses in Kiev are very polite, daygame is fun and encouraging. It is the dating process which is debilitating, dull and evasive, where after two or three dates a girl will be 'so sorry dear, I'm sick'. Remember to tell her to 'get better soon dear)))'. It is to be concluded that Ukrainian women suffer from a terminal, life long cycle of disease, instigated by the prospect of a date or a close. They might be partying it up elsewhere, you must be happy with this. This means you are respectful of matriarchy and cucking, and the opposite cheating you can do with other women. It is mutually assured cucking. The purpose here is to prolong this tiresome dating process for as long as possible, because Ukrainian women are the country's matriarchal resource.

It does not mean that girls here are not genuinely interested in you, but there is a clinical, slightly mentally ill fussiness over sex given the sexualized cultural climate. If you are prepared to pretend to be a provider and still be cucked, and perhaps cheat on her in return, you'll be fine. But do not expect to take a shortcut by practicing alpha game, because girls will know you are on vacation and not staying long term, as well as that you are absolutely unfamiliar with Ukraine Game.

It isn't so much that women here are conservative, it is that Ukrainian women delay the prospect of sex as means of control and reeling you into a longer term relationship. All girls have a price of a number of dates, if it can be phrased like that, depending on their beauty and age. Men from Turkey and the West can be seen with their dates in the supermarket shopping for ingredients together, hoping to seal the deal later on when she cooks a Borscht for you, like a tourist who will behold the wonders of the cuisine. Ukraine's matriarchy has shaped a template for sex which gives the facade of a holy maiden and clears the way for sex so that women can have it both ways.

Who gets laid quickly here? Younger groups of guys and girls who go to high school together have a certain fealty for one another, away from their hateful authoritarian mothers. I have no doubt that foreigners are considered a future prospective job for women. Dating foreigners is the job and women are the workforce. They will date them and possibly escape Ukraine. That leaves girls who are very young in social circles with other young guys, before they reach date-a-foreigner-workforce age and away from mamma's judgemental eyes. Vodka parties and other tightly-knit meetups are surely where they lose their virginity, and local young guys absolutely capitalize on this.

Every club has its share of hookers. Some P4P women on tinder would very much like 'a gift' (I told one I will buy her an omelet, naturally she wasn't receptive). Overall, Kiev is very cheap, people are friendly are relaxed, women are beautiful, and daygame is fun. If you are prepared to date long term, to wait for sex much longer as girls deliberately give you blue balls as a punishment-job protection mechanism, Ukraine is the paradise you are looking for.

[Nascimento]

^^ Great writing, man. Nice report.

[Henny]

Interesting write up.

With regard to speed of getting the lay then it very much depends on the player. Guys who do well at ONS in other countries will do a little less well here. For example, if a guy does 5 nights out in Kiev then 2 lays is a good figure.

True what you say, best results come from spending extended time here, other Euro destinations are better for ONS

If she is not going to spread the legs after date 3 then often she is not interested in you, and maybe has got enough food/drinks/English practice from you.

Within these three dates you should be selling yourself in a not too brash way so to as demonstrate value, and make her want to fuck you and continue seeing you.

I don't know what age you are referring to when you talk about high school girls, but girls over 18 like older men

[Beirut]

I stringly disagree about your conclusions on mother-children relationships.

I found fsu women in general and ukraine as well have tremendous bonds with their kids. Almost too strong.

I feel like in a family (even worse if youre a foreigner) its not parents-children its father-mother+children

There are hordes of single moms slaving away or chasing nasty men for the sake of their children.

They do however raise them to be tough. Maybe thats what you perceived as some sort of detachment.

[Henny]

(11-02-2016 03:16 PM)Beirut Wrote:  

I stringly disagree about your conclusions on mother-children relationships.

I found fsu women in general and ukraine as well have tremendous bonds with their kids. Almost too strong.

I feel like in a family (even worse if youre a foreigner) its not parents-children its father-mother+children

There are hordes of single moms slaving away or chasing nasty men for the sake of their children.

They do however raise them to be tough. Maybe thats what you perceived as some sort of detachment.

I would have to disagree with your disagreement

Compared to some many other countries I found Ukrainian women to have a less strong bond with parents, in Southern Europe for example it's way stronger, and in Balkans you often have to drink Rakija with the father before penetrating his daughter.

In Ukraine it feels they are almost prostituting their children sometimes, many will be happy for their 21year old daughter to marry a 60yr old man as long as he has money

[Cambodian Creamsicle]

Is Rakija some sort of liquid viagra? Do you get to penetrate the daughter immediately after consuming the boner juice or is there a wait period?

[Otzmatron]

Nearly forgot to mention Ukraine's wholesome 'Christian' TV channel. One of the highlights is a beauty pageant for disabled, crippled, deformed or toddler girls with down syndrome. They get their hair made, wear makeup and paraded in their wheelchairs by their mothers to the podium where a male toddler kneels before them with cinderella shoes.

[Beirut]

Its a very different situation between ukraine and southern europe.

Southern europe is a lot like lebanon. Yes family and extended family ties are very strong. And a girl will often want to live close to her parents even after marriage and the parents will also be involved in raising her kids, etc....

I am referring to what a mother does for her kids. And ive never seen a mother suffer for her kids as much as an fsu woman.

1.mediterraneans have string families and the father is most often present and involved and taking care of his family.
In ukraine the fathers are often absent/alcoholic/aggressive

2. While not rich, southern europeans can still live a simple life cheaply.
Ukrainians have a very harsh life.

While a southern european will baby and be over protective of her kids more, she is part of a whole family structure that embraces those children.
A ukrainian woman will not baby her kid but prepare her for a serious and hard life. But she will also work her ass off for minimal pay and go through hell to take care of her kids, whule southern european womens version of effort is making lunch and dinner.


As for prostituting their kids, this is simply a matter of eprspective.

In a traditional society a woman is judged by her beauty and mother skills, and a man by his provider skills.

For you an old rich man is a creep, for them hes attractive.

This is augmented tenfold when you factor in the extreme poverty there.

One could argue that sending your daughter to a university dorm to get gangbanged by pimply 18 year olds is much more of a prostituting act than pushing her to marry a well off man.

Anyway this is the only path to prosperity they have. It has nothing to do with them being bad mothers. On the contrary with their world and options, that is what good parenting is.

[edlefou]

(11-02-2016 12:55 PM)Otzmatron Wrote:  

It is the dating process which is debilitating, dull and evasive, where after two or three dates a girl will be 'so sorry dear, I'm sick'. Remember to tell her to 'get better soon dear)))'. It is to be concluded that Ukrainian women suffer from a terminal, life long cycle of disease, instigated by the prospect of a date or a close. They might be partying it up elsewhere, you must be happy with this. This means you are respectful of matriarchy and cucking, and the opposite cheating you can do with other women. It is mutually assured cucking. The purpose here is to prolong this tiresome dating process for as long as possible, because Ukrainian women are the country's matriarchal resource.

It does not mean that girls here are not genuinely interested in you, but there is a clinical, slightly mentally ill fussiness over sex given the sexualized cultural climate. If you are prepared to pretend to be a provider and still be cucked, and perhaps cheat on her in return, you'll be fine. But do not expect to take a shortcut by practicing alpha game, because girls will know you are on vacation and not staying long term, as well as that you are absolutely unfamiliar with Ukraine Game.

It isn't so much that women here are conservative, it is that Ukrainian women delay the prospect of sex as means of control and reeling you into a longer term relationship. All girls have a price of a number of dates, if it can be phrased like that, depending on their beauty and age. Men from Turkey and the West can be seen with their dates in the supermarket shopping for ingredients together, hoping to seal the deal later on when she cooks a Borscht for you, like a tourist who will behold the wonders of the cuisine. Ukraine's matriarchy has shaped a template for sex which gives the facade of a holy maiden and clears the way for sex so that women can have it both ways.

Good insight about EE culture, specifically the contradiction between the sexualized-femininity-on-steroids and the bullshit facade of the 3 date wait for sex.

I smiled at "life long cycle of disease" because it's so so true. EE women are also the most studious, going through an endless, lifelong cycle of exams and degrees that frustrate the progression to sex sequence.

I've received these excuses, which simply mean she got a better invitation, whether it's another cock, going drinking with her girlfriends, etc.

I've also been with girls firing off those excuses to be with me.

It's part of the game with EE women.

Patrice O'Neal's insights apply here:

Every date is the women fucking your time and money.

You can't be tired or give up. They aren't testing you maliciously. It's natural.

Calcify your ego like Thai boxers do their shins.

[WeekendCasanova]

(11-03-2016 05:07 AM)Henny Wrote:  

(11-02-2016 03:16 PM)Beirut Wrote:  

I stringly disagree about your conclusions on mother-children relationships.

I found fsu women in general and ukraine as well have tremendous bonds with their kids. Almost too strong.

I feel like in a family (even worse if youre a foreigner) its not parents-children its father-mother+children

There are hordes of single moms slaving away or chasing nasty men for the sake of their children.

They do however raise them to be tough. Maybe thats what you perceived as some sort of detachment.

I would have to disagree with your disagreement

Compared to some many other countries I found Ukrainian women to have a less strong bond with parents, in Southern Europe for example it's way stronger, and in Balkans you often have to drink Rakija with the father before penetrating his daughter.

In Ukraine it feels they are almost prostituting their children sometimes, many will be happy for their 21year old daughter to marry a 60yr old man as long as he has money

Ukrainian women have a strong bond with their mothers. More than one girl I've seen has said that their mother calls daily, if not for five minutes, just to check up - both of these girls were around 22 years old.

[Henny]

(11-03-2016 06:37 AM)Beirut Wrote:  

Its a very different situation between ukraine and southern europe.

Southern europe is a lot like lebanon. Yes family and extended family ties are very strong. And a girl will often want to live close to her parents even after marriage and the parents will also be involved in raising her kids, etc....

I am referring to what a mother does for her kids. And ive never seen a mother suffer for her kids as much as an fsu woman.

1.mediterraneans have string families and the father is most often present and involved and taking care of his family.
In ukraine the fathers are often absent/alcoholic/aggressive

2. While not rich, southern europeans can still live a simple life cheaply.
Ukrainians have a very harsh life.

While a southern european will baby and be over protective of her kids more, she is part of a whole family structure that embraces those children.
A ukrainian woman will not baby her kid but prepare her for a serious and hard life. But she will also work her ass off for minimal pay and go through hell to take care of her kids, whule southern european womens version of effort is making lunch and dinner.


As for prostituting their kids, this is simply a matter of eprspective.

In a traditional society a woman is judged by her beauty and mother skills, and a man by his provider skills.

For you an old rich man is a creep, for them hes attractive.

This is augmented tenfold when you factor in the extreme poverty there.

One could argue that sending your daughter to a university dorm to get gangbanged by pimply 18 year olds is much more of a prostituting act than pushing her to marry a well off man.

Anyway this is the only path to prosperity they have. It has nothing to do with them being bad mothers. On the contrary with their world and options, that is what good parenting is.

Not all Ukrainians have a harsh life, a not so insignificant amount of people have it very good in Ukraine, a lifestyle to rival that of many Europeans

Quote:

For you an old rich man is a creep, for them hes attractive.

Well many guys will call girls semi-pros because they expect to be taken to nice restaurants and have gifts bought for them, so a girl who marries for money is the same then - a semi-pro.

[jabba]

(09-30-2016 08:44 PM)jasond Wrote:  

I had a friend who used http://www.dobovo.com with good results.

Thanks for sharing. I'm using Dobovo and saved 50%+ vs. Airbnb.

[Kendrick]

Me and my buddy just arrived in Kiev, PM if anyone wants to meet up.

[thirtysomething]

Hello,

Same here. I'll be in Kiev 15-27 December. PM me if you are interested in daygame and nightgame.

[DigitalNomad]

(11-18-2016 11:33 AM)jabba Wrote:  

(09-30-2016 08:44 PM)jasond Wrote:  

I had a friend who used http://www.dobovo.com with good results.

Thanks for sharing. I'm using Dobovo and saved 50%+ vs. Airbnb.

Great advice, I used Airbnb the first time I was in Kiev, I'll definitely be using Dobovo when I go back, looks much cheaper

[Cambodian Creamsicle]

Dobovo isn't 50% cheaper than Airbnb. That makes no sense.

[jabba]

Sept - Arena City $100 / night
Nov - Gulliver $50 / night

Dobovo requires one to go to their office to pick up the keys. The experience was pleasant and cheaper than Airbnb.

(12-26-2016 04:39 AM)Cambodian Creamsicle Wrote:  

Dobovo isn't 50% cheaper than Airbnb. That makes no sense.

[Cambodian Creamsicle]

I just looked online at a place on Dobovo that's right beside the place I was staying at. $32 per night for a studio. My place from Airbnb was better and was a 1 bedroom with a better Tv and kitchen for about the same price.

It makes zero sense that Dobovo could charge half of what Airbnb does and have a profitable business. Maybe you found some rare exception but that's not an accurate representation of what people can expect.

[jabba]

You have a point. I'll drill down the details.

Sept - Arena City, $100 / night, 2BR

Nov - Gulliver $50 / night, Studio

I travel solo. I didn't need the extra space in Sept. That was the only flat available which matched my needs. It had a full kitchen, but it was overkill.

The studio was all I needed and was a btter deal. I could watch CNBC, Fox, DW... It was a good place to work and central to meet girls. It didn't have a stove / oven. It had a microwave and refridgerator.

Both places had fast internet, all cable business channels, had great views, good logistics, bright sunlight, clean, modern, good customer service. I ate out for lunch / dinner.

[Henny]

Yes I looked at Dobovo and didn't see much lower prices compared to what I was seeing in Booking.com.

[wonderer1]

I go to Kiev next week.

What are the best spots to daygame? I have Kreschatik street already

[Fogg]

(08-10-2016 02:11 PM)weener Wrote:  

I don't agree with the claim that they would choose Americans or Australians if they weren't so far away, Ukrainians are Europeans and thus are more aligned with European culture than American

I suspect Polish guys would do well when a girl is considering LTR, similar cultural and language, EU passport. Also Germans because they act more "Proper" and "Serious", whereas some Westerners can come across as too flighty.

This theory was spot on
Funny enough, I am both Polish AND German, and it did wonders for me in Ukraine. Being Polish and having somewhat traditional Polish values, I could connect with Ukrainian girls on a level that guys from other countries might not be able to. Also, being able to speak Polish really helps with girls whose English is not great. I could "fill in the gaps" with Polish words and girls would understand the words 60% of the time. Hell, in clubs where the music was loud, I could even talk to a girl with 0 English, and keep the conversation going with just Polish and her speaking Ukrainian.

I did much better than in Poland, as I think I am too Polish looking.
As a matter of fact, I would highly recommend to all Polish guys or guys with Polish backgrounds to check out Poland to give Ukraine a try. You will thank me later

[Mikestar]

^ Great info, I am Polish and thought I would definitely need Russian to score in Ukraine but for me that probably wouldn't be neccesary. Gonna put Ukraina on my bucket list.

[Giacomo Casanova]

Yes I think that you're right, generally Poles are able to connect well with this kind of girls due to the similar cultural background, language, behavior. Additionally they are still a "door in the EU", and closer than America/Australia where girls dream about holiday but they know that getting a VISA is arduous. There are many Polish stag party in Lviv, in the night you can always listen some Polish language on the streets and drunk people yelling. So I would avoid Lviv if I were Polish, bad reputation like the English staggers have in Poland. I approached in Polish language in the ukrainian towns close to Polish border when English didn't work. Other towns might be good. You simply don't see many Polish guys hunting in Ukraine since they are surrounded in Poland by gorgeous and attractive girls. You see many Americans in Ukraine due to the thirstiness and absence of high quality girls in the States but it is arduous for them due to different game they run and get used to, different mentality, etc. Clown game works in USA but doesn't in Ukraine. Germans are regarded positively due to the pockets/work opportunities and because of being regarded as a serious prospect for the good reputation of the country. Italians, French and Swiss are also generally regarded positively for the reputation of "lovers" and because they dress well, important factor in Ukraine.
Then surely it depends by what kind of foreigner you are, regardless of the nationality.

[Fogg]

"...don't see many Polish guys hunting in Ukraine since they are surrounded in Poland by gorgeous and attractive girls."

I have to disagree with that to some extent. Yes, there are still a a lot of hot girls in Poland, but that number is decreasing. I was recently in Poland and found nightgame fun, but very disappointing when it comes to the quality of women. Plus, Latin guys are ruining the place.
On the other hand Ukraine is paradise: 7+ everywhere, no Latinos and even if there are Girls don't seem to respond to their approaches.
I am sorry to say, but Polish women have lost me