[Ghost Tiger]

(06-21-2016 11:39 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

(06-21-2016 11:14 PM)godfather dust Wrote:  

I disagree. Islam is evil.

Based on my limited understanding (better than 95% of Westerners I would wager, I have read portions of the texts) well behaved Muslims are doing it wrong. Isis are the most "pious" Muslims.

The text itself is not as important as how it is interpreted and practiced.

I will say that Islam was most likely developed as a warring religion, but you can see evidence that there are people who either believe or who grew up with that religion that don't adhere to the warring aspects of the religion. The "doing it wrong" part is simply adapting the religion to modern times where large scale war and growth of empires is no longer a major part of civilization.

Even in the Bible there are verses in it that condones sex slavery and mistreatment of women. When I went to church, I never even heard of those verses and was taught stuff that mostly revolved around good social behavior. Again the religion has been adapting to the evolution of society.

This is why I believe that Wahhabism is the source of this issue. Wahhabism espouses an ideology that appears to turn back time by promoting a more literal interpretation of the texts and promoting an outward physical form of jihad, which is maladapted to modern civilization over an internal spiritual awakening form of jihad, which is better adapted to modern civilization.

I don't have all of the pieces put together yet, but this is how I perceive things right now.

As an aside, I want to clarify "well behaved" and maybe go with "moderate" or "assimilated" Muslims.

Islam isn't merely a religion, which is why there is no equivalence between Islam and Christianity. Islam is also a political system that regulates every minute aspect of the lives of both Muslims and non-Muslims (the kuffar). No other religion in the world does this. Every other religion has a Golden Rule: treat other people as you would yourself be treated. Islam does not. Islam has a rule that says: treat other Muslims as you yourself would be treated, and then goes on to issue a massive number of commands on how to treat the kafir (non-Muslim), and the treatment ain't very nice. You cannot only look at the Koran when you observe Islam, you must also consider other relevant documents like the Sira, which is Mohammed's biography, and the Hadith, which is basically a bunch of supplementary sharia legal documents. There is more Islamic doctrine devoted to the mistreatment of the kuffar than any other subject. This is unheard of in other religions. Islam is unique. Islam is cancer.

[All or Nothing]

(06-21-2016 11:50 PM)Ghost Tiger Wrote:  

Islam isn't merely a religion, which is why there is no equivalence between Islam and Christianity. Islam is also a political system that regulates every minute aspect of the lives of both Muslims and non-Muslims (the kuffar). No other religion in the world does this. Every other religion has a Golden Rule: treat other people as you would yourself be treated. Islam does not. Islam has a rule that says: treat other Muslims as you yourself would be treated, and then goes on to issue a massive number of commands on how to treat the kafir (non-Muslim), and the treatment ain't very nice. You cannot only look at the Koran when you observe Islam, you must also consider other relevant documents like the Sira, which is Mohammed's biography, and the Hadith, which is basically a bunch of supplementary sharia legal documents. There is more Islamic doctrine devoted to the mistreatment of the kuffar than any other subject. This is unheard of in other religions. Islam is unique. Islam is cancer.

There is an equivalence. Christianity in the west was state driven and controlled the minutia of western people's lives for hundreds of years.

Luther was one of the first people to defy the Catholic Church and it's obscene level of power over Western Europe. He led the way to reformation and the breaking up of the Catholic Church's power.

State driven Church is the reason why we have the First Amendment establishing the separation of the Church and State.

As a note, I just want to provide some contrary evidence here because I think the perception of Islam being evil is too broad. There are specific sects of Islam that convert Muslims into militant believers like Wahhabism that are the problem. Damning an entire religion is not as useful as focusing on specific sects and figuring out how to excise those sects of the religion from Western society in order to throw a bucket of water over the rising militancy of the followers and get them to assimilate into society.

[dain_bramage]

Islamic hordes have been trying to invade and control Europe/ Christendom for centuries. Their tactics may have changed but the same goal is in mind. Spread, spread, spread like cancer, kill the infidels or force them to convert. Enough beating around the bush. Islam is a cult, its a dangerous cult that has killed many men and desecrated places like Hagia Sophia. The majority of Islam's history has been of conquest with the exception of the 20th century when the Ottoman rule ended. I assume some of the hardcore leaders know they can't take on Europe's military might in a head on battle. But subversion and steady invasion by means of migration and immigration plus the use of their weapon called the womb will eventually snuff out Europe. They will use democracy against us and then when there's no real incentive to use democratic means of government they will take over just be means of numbers. Europe is going to die unless some kind of miracle happens or I think from what I have gathered from Samseau and other reading a better case scenario is mass civil unrest and possible civil war.

I actually did a presentation on the Brexit/ and possible collapse of the EU for my course I've taken. I made the point that a smaller alliance say that of Poland, Czech, Slovakia, and Hungary could emerge, maybe a central Europe alliance. I think best case scenario Europe falls apart and a shit ton of violence along religious and racial lines will explode and then some kind of forced stability followed by flare ups here and there. We live in interesting times gentlemen.

Islam is a threat because its a part of life for more than a billion people. Its a daily grind, a great invasion of the mind from the early moments of childhood. It is something that has a far longer history than socialism or communism. Its what people have based their identity on and shit post on some pages about how its going to end the European way of living. Its a cancer that will take massive, massive, immense amount of chemo and radiation over generations to put the host body into remission, if at all.

[Ghost Tiger]

(06-22-2016 12:01 AM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

(06-21-2016 11:50 PM)Ghost Tiger Wrote:  

Islam isn't merely a religion, which is why there is no equivalence between Islam and Christianity. Islam is also a political system that regulates every minute aspect of the lives of both Muslims and non-Muslims (the kuffar). No other religion in the world does this. Every other religion has a Golden Rule: treat other people as you would yourself be treated. Islam does not. Islam has a rule that says: treat other Muslims as you yourself would be treated, and then goes on to issue a massive number of commands on how to treat the kafir (non-Muslim), and the treatment ain't very nice. You cannot only look at the Koran when you observe Islam, you must also consider other relevant documents like the Sira, which is Mohammed's biography, and the Hadith, which is basically a bunch of supplementary sharia legal documents. There is more Islamic doctrine devoted to the mistreatment of the kuffar than any other subject. This is unheard of in other religions. Islam is unique. Islam is cancer.

There is an equivalence. Christianity in the west was state driven and controlled the minutia of western people's lives for hundreds of years.

Luther was one of the first people to defy the Catholic Church and it's obscene level of power over Western Europe. He led the way to reformation and the breaking up of the Catholic Church's power.

State driven Church is the reason why we have the First Amendment establishing the separation of the Church and State.

As a note, I just want to provide some contrary evidence here because I think the perception of Islam being evil is too broad. There are specific sects of Islam that convert Muslims into militant believers like Wahhabism that are the problem. Damning an entire religion is not as useful as focusing on specific sects and figuring out how to excise those sects of the religion from Western society in order to throw a bucket of water over the rising militancy of the followers and get them to assimilate into society.

You really need to watch both of the videos below. Your level of denial is epic.

There is no equivalence. Islam is evil. Islam is cancer. I fucking HATE Islam.

[Sweet Jones]

While we are posting videos it's worth watching Stefan Molyneux on the Crusades and the Atlantic Slave Trade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ilFbbk9jw4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31E1gHowYcA

Crusades are regularly held up as an example of religious-inspired Christian imperialism, but that clearly isn't the case. In fact I personally consider the Spanish Reconquista the 'real' first Crusade.

[Leonard D Neubache]

Claiming Islam is only a problem because of Saudi princes is rather foolish. Their money simply allows them to magnify Islam's problems and paste them across vast regions.

At best the argument could be summarised that Islam is evil when given resources and alternately simply tragic when left to wallow in its own self induced poverty.

[El Chinito loco]

(06-22-2016 02:19 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Claiming Islam is only a problem because of Saudi princes is rather foolish. Their money simply allows them to magnify Islam's problems and paste them across vast regions.

At best the argument could be summarised that Islam is evil when given resources and alternately simply tragic when left to wallow in its own self induced poverty.

There tends to be no winners with true evil. It punishes all who come into contact. So by definition Islam does fit that definition.

[Spectrumwalker]

(06-21-2016 11:39 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

Even in the Bible there are verses in it that condones sex slavery and mistreatment of women. When I went to church, I never even heard of those verses and was taught stuff that mostly revolved around good social behavior. Again the religion has been adapting to the evolution of society.

What verses or events are you referring to?

[Mage]

In my life I have made a lot of research about all the major worlds religions to try and understand what they have in common, what is different in them, what is right what is wrong.

I have came to a very interesting conclusion about Islam and why it is so strictly different from Christianity, why Islam is very aggressive and Christianity is much more peaceful.

My conclusion is that you cannot understand the differences of dynamics in these religions by comparing only the two of them. You must look outside the box and see the other players in this game. To some extent this refers to Judaism, but what I am really thinking about is Paganism!

The major difference between Christians and Muslims is not the difference in their religions - it is the fact that most Christians are actually half-christians, half pagans, while Muslims are strict monotheistic non-pagans.

This is the most important reason why Christians are more tolerant to other cultures - because 99% of them are a mix of Christianity and Paganism.

To those who consider themselves pure Christians and are surprised or in denial about being actually half pagans you must explain why do you:

-Bring Christmas three to your home and even put it near altars in your churches when Bible explicitly prohibits you from doing this. (Jeremiah 10)
-Create graven images of things found in nature and even of your "monotheistic" God in a pagan fashion when Bible explicitly prohibits you from doing this.
-Paint eggs for Easter
-Put flowers on your graves instead of stones like Jews do. (Muslims are in controversy whether this is permitted radicals do not allow it, but some paganism creeps in islam too)
-Tell your children fairy tales like Red riding hood, Cinderella that are actually zipped and compressed pagan theology which can be autoextracted by experiance of those who come close to nature and realize what they talk about.
-Why you observe local and national pagan feast like Mardi Gras, carnivals, summer solstice and others depending on your nationality.
-Enjoy Greek and Norse myths as great literature that holds valuable insights instead of condemning them as lies and blasphemy.
-Numerous other things you don't realize are pagan and unbiblical to the core.

Christianity is literally filled with pagan imaginary, pagan holidays, pagan customs and many things that are considered idolatery by Jews and Muslims. Christians defend these things like they came from Bible or Jesus, but they came from white European pagan heritage instead.

The truth is that when some Christian movement does get rid themselves of all pagan heritage and becomes pure Biblical monotheists they become as fanatical, intolerant and aggressive as radical Muslims. But this happens rarely therefore Christianity has but a few examples of violence, but history shows that Christianity has been violent against pagans many times until it mixed with paganism and paganism continued to dwell under Christianity in this cryptic hidden form that most people are unaware of although they do practice paganism themselves.

If you were a true Christian you would be much more hostile against other opinions, because you would consider them dangerous heresies that bring souls to eternal death that is much worse then the insignificant physical deaths and suffering caused by your intolerant actions - your intolerance and aggression against unbelievers would come very close to that one displayed by radical Muslims.

If however you think different beliefs can coexist and religious freedom must be respected then I got news for you - you are far less a Christian then you think and you are far more a pagan and/or an atheist then you realize.

[Leonard D Neubache]

(06-22-2016 03:10 AM)Mage Wrote:  

...
If you were a true Christian you would be much more hostile against other opinions, because you would consider them dangerous heresies that bring souls to eternal death that is much worse then the insignificant physical deaths and suffering caused by your intolerant actions - your intolerance and aggression against unbelievers would come very close to that one displayed by radical Muslims.
...

So Christ dying for all our sins was... what? Pointless? Because our eternal souls are still in peril, not just if we strayed from his teachings but if we even tolerated others doing so?

I don't think so.

[Mage]

(06-22-2016 04:34 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(06-22-2016 03:10 AM)Mage Wrote:  

...
If you were a true Christian you would be much more hostile against other opinions, because you would consider them dangerous heresies that bring souls to eternal death that is much worse then the insignificant physical deaths and suffering caused by your intolerant actions - your intolerance and aggression against unbelievers would come very close to that one displayed by radical Muslims.
...

So Christ dying for all our sins was... what? Pointless? Because our eternal souls are still in peril, not just if we strayed from his teachings but if we even tolerated others doing so?

I don't think so.

And what if those others force you to worship Mammon at gunpoint or let homosexuals marry at your children-friendly family restaurant? What if they spread lies about your Lord, teach rebellion and ways of whoredom to your wife and your daughters, what if they mold your sons to grow as blasphemous infidels indulgent in perverse carnal pleasures?

No man is an island.

Surely you can cuddle with your savior in your obscure filthy corner and take delight in your imagination of others being punished for not being afraid enough and burning in hell, while you alone will be saved for keeping up the faith and will get your pat on the back from the savior who loves us all.
You see - such a worldview is such a hypocrisy that even most historical Christians didn't subscribe to that and understood the value of fighting for their faith so that it would reach all nations and all generations.
Only today Christians are happy to sit back and see their neighbors and even family members walk into eternal damnation while they themselves idly sing love songs to Jesus at their secluded churches.
And this also is because today's Christians are not purely Christians at all. They are a mix of things, a mix of ideologies. And the ideology that allows them to sit back and hope for salvation while their neighbors walk the wide path to hell is nothing else but western individualism. Another biblicaly unsupported paradigm.

[Leonard D Neubache]

(06-22-2016 04:44 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(06-22-2016 04:34 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(06-22-2016 03:10 AM)Mage Wrote:  

...
If you were a true Christian you would be much more hostile against other opinions, because you would consider them dangerous heresies that bring souls to eternal death that is much worse then the insignificant physical deaths and suffering caused by your intolerant actions - your intolerance and aggression against unbelievers would come very close to that one displayed by radical Muslims.
...

So Christ dying for all our sins was... what? Pointless? Because our eternal souls are still in peril, not just if we strayed from his teachings but if we even tolerated others doing so?

I don't think so.

And what if those others force you to worship Mammon at gunpoint or let homosexuals marry at your children-friendly family restaurant? What if they spread lies about your Lord, teach rebellion and ways of whoredom to your wife and your daughters, what if they mold your sons to grow as blasphemous infidels indulgent in perverse carnal pleasures?

No man is an island.

Surely you can cuddle with your savior in your obscure filthy corner and take delight in your imagination of others being punished for not being afraid enough and burning in hell, while you alone will be saved for keeping up the faith and will get your pat on the back from the savior who loves us all.
You see - such a worldview is such a hypocrisy that even most historical Christians didn't subscribe to that and understood the value of fighting for their faith so that it would reach all nations and all generations.
Only today Christians are happy to sit back and see their neighbors and even family members walk into eternal damnation while they themselves idly sing love songs to Jesus at their secluded churches.
And this also is because today's Christians are not purely Christians at all. They are a mix of things, a mix of ideologies. And the ideology that allows them to sit back and hope for salvation while their neighbors walk the wide path to hell is nothing else but western individualism. Another biblicaly unsupported paradigm.

For starters, I'm not on the God squad. I'm just discussing these things academically. Secondly, there is a world of difference between fighting to keep your own lands free of sin and the muslim way, which is to declare that all lands not under islam are the dar al harb and fair game for jihad.

And yes, Christians are starting to determine that they have to push back or they're going to be steamrolled, but frankly I don't think they're going to be shooting 50 people dead in a gay nightclub any time soon. All they really have to do is to secede and wall up. Sodom and Gomorrah would collapse in on themselves quite quickly.

Sadly many Christians mistake forgiveness for tolerance, and in any case their hierarchies are addicted to their tax exempt status and not willing to rock the political boat. Having said that, there are plenty of individual Christians these days that are preparing to have to resist progressivism by any and all means necessary.

Regardless, as said before, that is a far cry from going into the lands of the infidel and killing women and children in the name of God and Jesus.

[ivansirko]

(06-22-2016 07:16 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Sadly many Christians mistake forgiveness for tolerance

A lot more non-Christians mistake tolerance with acceptance or adherence.

Carry on.....

[The Beast1]

Mage, sorry bud but your analysis of Christian theology is woefully incorrect.

First off, Jesus left us with two new laws that supercede the old ones. The laws you're citing in particular are superceded by this:

Quote:

"Love the Lord your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your mind and with all of your strength. The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself." There is no commandment greater than these."
Mark 12:30-31

That leaves you open to use Christmas trees, eat pork, paint eggs on Easter, etc.

The old testament was included to tell a prophecy of Jesus' return. It was not included to tell you that you shouldn't make graven images, avoid pork, or kill homosexuals. As a Christian, you only need to read the New Testament to understand what it means to be a Christian.

That doesn't mean to skip the old testament, there is value in it its lessons but to be a proper Christian it doesn't mean you have to follow the laws or customs outlined in it. The old testament is more of value to Judaism as its proof that God fulfilled his promise to Abraham.

This is a common error made by many people and it is a shame that more pastors don't attempt to dispell this.

As Samsaeu pointed out in another thread: your neighbor means your immediate neighbor. It doesn't mean brown people on another continent nor people in another state. It's your neighbor that you see right now.

On a side note: Turning the other cheek is referring to not escalating attacks on our dignity (IE calling you a cuck doesn't mean to call someone back a cuck or escalate it). It does not mean we can't respond to attacks on our so sovereignty as a nation or responding to physical attacks with self defense.

A great article I constantly cite on the golden rule:
http://www.returnofkings.com/33060/the-g...rule-works

If Muslims want to attack us, then it is only fitting within Jesus' law to strike back. It is a fallen world after all.

With that in mind, we shouldn't be celebrating Christmas on the 25th of December. Jesus was born in March/April. This was a pagan holdover to spur conversions to Catholicism.

As Leonard said: forgiveness does not equal tolerance. Good Christians know to remove themselves from people and situations that could potentially cause sin. Nothing wrong with fighting against it.

[Mage]

(06-22-2016 07:16 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Regardless, as said before, that is a far cry from going into the lands of the infidel and killing women and children in the name of God and Jesus.

Yes Christianity is inherently less violent then Islam, I am not arguing otherwise. What I was saying is that Christianity can still be rather violent, not as violent as Islam but still much more violent then most people would approve of. And the major reason contemporary Christianity is not violent at all is because contemporary Christians are not purely Christians but are also something else ideologically and culturally most of time.

Most Christians are also:
-Pagans
-Patriots or at least descendants of their country with their history
-Believers in Democracy
-Believers in Capitalism and free trade
-Have some subculture they belong to

Muslims generally don't have anything else but Islam. Islam is both a religious, political and economical system. Their country history in most cases is the same as history of Islam. Music and many other forms of self expression which could create subcultures is prohibited. They don't have anything else but Islam therefore are so violent, because no other ideology binds them to peaceful society. This is not true for all Muslims. Some Muslim countries have some national customs which split their identities and make them less violent. T

The more radical a person is the less identities and ideologies he has, other then his sole religion, that is what you can observe.

You can even observe this on liberals - stripped from any cultural and religious heritage, stripped from patriarchal traditions, from knowledge accumulated by their fathers these cultural bastards are aggressive and obnoxious people that march on Bernie rallies attacking different minded people, suing people for tweets and similar.

If a person has only one program in himself he will become a violent fanatic, be he a liberal, a Christian or a Muslim.

[Mage]

(06-22-2016 07:45 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Mage, sorry bud but your analysis of Christian theology is woefully incorrect.

First off, Jesus left us with two new laws that supercede the old ones. The laws you're citing in particular are superceded by this:

Quote:

"Love the Lord your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your mind and with all of your strength. The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself." There is no commandment greater than these."
Mark 12:30-31

That leaves you open to use Christmas trees, eat pork, paint eggs on Easter, etc.

Wrong!
Christ did not give these laws. They are laws from the old testament:
Deuteronomy 6:5
Leviticus 19:15-18

Your pastors just blatantly lie about Christ coming up with these new laws to supercede old testament.

Jesus also said:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them" Matthew 5:17

Christians only use old testament to fraudulently justify that Jesus is a messiah. They never read the old testament because then they would see that Jesus is not the messiah of old testament and that old testament is much more richer then the new one and has within itself everything of value that the new testament has too, so there is no need for the new testament.

Christianity is a Jewish based faith meant to strip the independent and masculine European pagans from their various traditions and enable large scale empire building by unifying and pacifying the population, while still allowing just enough zeal to conquer in the name of evangelisation. This is how Christianity was adopted as official faith by Constantine and how it has served the European Monarchies until Democracy took over which also started the atrophy of Christianity as liberalism took over as state religion. Everything that is truly mystical and valuable in Christianity comes from either the Jewish Torah or the European Paganism. Christianity adds nothing new just recombines. It becomes evident for everyone who studies history, Judaism and Paganism while also trying to live a virtuous spiritual life.

[The Beast1]

Huh? Sorry Mage but every Christian theologian will disagree with your summary.

Jesus is the Messiah of the old testament. As you cited yourself he came to fulfill them.

Any other message to the contrary isn't Christian and is heretical.

Find a Christian theologian of notoriety with your views, there aren't any. Maybe you'll find a case of sour grapes from Jewish sources however which is what it sounds like you've been researching.

And finally, the pagans of Europe willingly gave up their pagan ways to Christian evangelists. The Byzantines and by extension Constantine didn't have any power in France, Germany, the British Isles, or Scandinavia. I don't see how Constantine's conversion has any bearing here.

[Lunostrelki]

(06-21-2016 04:52 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-21-2016 02:24 PM)Lunostrelki Wrote:  

Communism and the moral and cultural relativism it promotes is what allows Islam to get a free hand in western societies.

You've got it backwards. The cultural relativism is what promotes Communism and Islam.

With the loss of belief in the teachings of Jesus, people in the West have crowned themselves emperor of knowing what is good and evil. People think they are Gods in the West and pass judgement accordingly.

So one day they promote Communism, the next day Feminism, the next day Islam... what difference does it make to someone who does not believe in Truth? They just want to fit in and play along with whatever becomes popular.

I stand corrected. When a society loses its values, be it through the collapse of a existing order (Russia, China) or cultural degeneracy (the US, western Europe), that is when things like communism and feminism and other modern garbage can be taken seriously.

[Kid Twist]

(06-21-2016 04:02 PM)spokepoker Wrote:  

No, we just need to take back what was built by us (conservative thinking). Get the traitors out, get those who put their country first back in. Secession or civil war is for when things are absolutely completely fucked, it's not at that point yet, we can still restore what has been degraded.

How? You have a HUGE government and 25% that believe, in one way or another, of socialism or at least huge social welfare, if not communism. Another 20% are sympathetic to leaders that essentially endorse this type of viewpoint, if not fully, it's compatible with it in large degree.

So by what method? Military coup to actually restore the Constitution? We can't even get judges to rule according to the law, and we have presidents who actively tell the DOJ to disregard laws.

It's not at this point? Once the economy crashes even to 12k in the market or more, that'll be it. How would it "naturally" get better with at least 40% sympathetic to Bernie Sanders type ideology?

[Traktor]

(06-21-2016 10:58 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  

Islam, especially Salafist variety, is not just a religion, it is also a political system. Communism was another political system that posed a threat to Western civilization in the past. However, while it was possible to be critical of communism, because of the climate of political correctness and "multiculturalism" it is much more difficult to publicly criticise Islam, which being a religion, is thus able to shield itself behind "religious tolerance" in a way communism never could.

Give me a communist/socialist Afghanistan/Iraq/Yemen any day over the tribal, salafist wing nut ridden mess it is now.

Thanks

[Ghost Tiger]

Mage, why do you think that Islam is so strictly "monotheistic non-pagan"? It sounds to me like you are implying that they are "true" monotheists and that Christians have somehow "bastardized" monotheism. If that's what you are implying, then you are simply resorting to the argument tactic of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Islam is so "truly" monotheistic because it chops the fucking heads off all the God-damned pagans everywhere it finds them, not because it has some highly evolved sense of purpose. To those of you arguing with Mage over the "purity" of Christian theology, you are chasing a squirrel in this argument meant to distract you.

Christianity incorporates pagan traditions because Christians understand the value of compromise and making good deals, just like the great Christian leader of our modern era, Donald J. Trump. Islam doesn't make deals. Islam gives three options to non-Muslim "kafir" infidels (like me):

1) Convert

2) Die

3) Become a "dhimmi" slave and pay an exorbitant tax called the "jizyah"

Note that option #3 is only available to Christians and Jews.

Your dismissal of Islam's violence with your assertion that you accept that fact is a little bit silly. Islam's violence makes Christianity's paganism irrelevant. In other words, who gives a fuck if Christians are a little bit pagan when the Muslims are chopping each other's heads off in the desert and raping young girls all over Europe? Not this baptized pagan Christian. Number of fucks given = precisely zero bro.

[dain_bramage]

(06-22-2016 11:47 AM)Ghost Tiger Wrote:  

Mage, why do you think that Islam is so strictly "monotheistic non-pagan"? It sounds to me like you are implying that they are "true" monotheists and that Christians have somehow "bastardized" monotheism. If that's what you are implying, then you are simply resorting to the argument tactic of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Islam is so "truly" monotheistic because it chops the fucking heads off all the God-damned pagans everywhere it finds them, not because it has some highly evolved sense of purpose. To those of you arguing with Mage over the "purity" of Christian theology, you are chasing a squirrel in this argument meant to distract you.

Christianity incorporates pagan traditions because Christians understand the value of compromise and making good deals, just like the great Christian leader of our modern era, Donald J. Trump. Islam doesn't make deals. Islam gives three options to non-Muslim "kafir" infidels (like me):

1) Convert

2) Die

3) Become a "dhimmi" slave and pay an exorbitant tax called the "jizyah"

Note that option #3 is only available to Christians and Jews.

Your dismissal of Islam's violence with your assertion that you accept that fact is a little bit silly. Islam's violence makes Christianity's paganism irrelevant. In other words, who gives a fuck if Christians are a little bit pagan when the Muslims are chopping each other's heads off in the desert and raping young girls all over Europe? Not this baptized pagan Christian. Number of fucks given = precisely zero bro.

You basically summed up my arguments used in my classes and online conversations in a brief and easily understood manner. Thanks Ghost Tiger!

If I had to live in a community of any kind of religion it would be Mennonites and definitely not Muslims of any kind. I wouldn't mind farming as its in my background and the fact that I am related to Mennonites in the valley distantly. Christians are relatively tame. I don't hear about a Mennonite or baptist christian shooting up concerts or bars in the name of Christ. Christianity whether its pure or not has changed over the last 3 centuries. Islam in some places like Saudi Arabia still has people being beheaded and tortured for expressing different opinions. The general christian kind of annoys me but I respect some of them. I don't respect Islam.

[Leonard D Neubache]

(06-22-2016 10:43 AM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

(06-21-2016 04:02 PM)spokepoker Wrote:  

No, we just need to take back what was built by us (conservative thinking). Get the traitors out, get those who put their country first back in. Secession or civil war is for when things are absolutely completely fucked, it's not at that point yet, we can still restore what has been degraded.

How? You have a HUGE government and 25% that believe, in one way or another, of socialism or at least huge social welfare, if not communism. Another 20% are sympathetic to leaders that essentially endorse this type of viewpoint, if not fully, it's compatible with it in large degree.

So by what method? Military coup to actually restore the Constitution? We can't even get judges to rule according to the law, and we have presidents who actively tell the DOJ to disregard laws.

It's not at this point? Once the economy crashes even to 12k in the market or more, that'll be it. How would it "naturally" get better with at least 40% sympathetic to Bernie Sanders type ideology?

This, pretty much. There is no viable way short of genocide to just "get rid" of most of the people in Los Angeles, Chicago, Detroit, New York, Boston, El Paso, Columbus, San Francisco, Austin, San Jose and Philadelphia.

These are the fruits of Democracy. If 51 percent of the nation has no interest in upholding the Constitution then it inevitably becomes a dead letter. If you want your nation back then you're not going to vote your way there, and if you're not going to vote your way there then the other options are fairly self explanatory.

[h3ltrsk3ltr]

(06-22-2016 08:06 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(06-22-2016 07:16 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Regardless, as said before, that is a far cry from going into the lands of the infidel and killing women and children in the name of God and Jesus.

Yes Christianity is inherently less violent then Islam, I am not arguing otherwise. What I was saying is that Christianity can still be rather violent, not as violent as Islam but still much more violent then most people would approve of. And the major reason contemporary Christianity is not violent at all is because contemporary Christians are not purely Christians but are also something else ideologically and culturally most of time.

Most Christians are also:
-Pagans
-Patriots or at least descendants of their country with their history
-Believers in Democracy
-Believers in Capitalism and free trade
-Have some subculture they belong to

Muslims generally don't have anything else but Islam. Islam is both a religious, political and economical system. Their country history in most cases is the same as history of Islam. Music and many other forms of self expression which could create subcultures is prohibited. They don't have anything else but Islam therefore are so violent, because no other ideology binds them to peaceful society. This is not true for all Muslims. Some Muslim countries have some national customs which split their identities and make them less violent. T

The more radical a person is the less identities and ideologies he has, other then his sole religion, that is what you can observe.

You can even observe this on liberals - stripped from any cultural and religious heritage, stripped from patriarchal traditions, from knowledge accumulated by their fathers these cultural bastards are aggressive and obnoxious people that march on Bernie rallies attacking different minded people, suing people for tweets and similar.

If a person has only one program in himself he will become a violent fanatic, be he a liberal, a Christian or a Muslim.

I think this makes a lot of sense.

I disagree that Christianity is inherently less violent, however. Until the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the neutering of the church by Luther, the Islamic world was a thriving hub of trade, innovation and progressive ideals.

The crusades, the inquisition, the interdict, feudalism...bros, the Christian world is replete with a violent history.

Since 1500, as the GDP of the west began to outstrip the east/middle east, the Arabic world and its Islamic religion was shunted into a corner. The violence we're seeing has less to do with Islam than a bunch of people put into a situation that would make anyone react violently.

Now, before you accuse me of being an SJW, I think the solution is to just quash Islam outright. While there's nothing inherently evil about it, it's a vehicle for the unrest and terrorist acts of a bunch of pissed off Muslims.

They ought to be viewed with suspicion.

They're getting the short end of the stick this millennium, shit happens.

[Leonard D Neubache]

Compare the texts. One calls for endless war with non-believers. The other does not.

There is a difference between Christianity and the historical actions of governments with a Christian majority. The ancient geo-political machinations of unelected rulers of Christian majority nations is of no relevance to what the scriptures contain.

In times gone, literacy and access to scripture was highly limited. Government and organised religion also laid a heavy hand over how the Bible was to be interpreted. That is to say, render unto Caesar, render the rest to the church and shut the fuck up.

Now, in the age of literacy and instant access to information we see the true nature of the fruits of the Bible vs the fruits of the Koran. People are not reading the words of Christ, "self radicalising" and then going out to murder 50 gays in a nightclub. People reading the words of Mohammed on the other hand are committing terrorism in the name of Allah because that is precisely what the Koran instructs them to do.

Your historical equivocations are irrelevant. Bible plus literacy equals prosperity. Koran plus literacy equals terror.