[Veloce]

(10-15-2014 01:25 AM)Fisto Wrote:  

Ok so now that we've drawn the lines on when letting her order food is a shit test through and through.

Where does team no appetizer stand on going to happy hour? I think its implied you'll get some apps if you invite her to there.

I think it would probably be best to take girls there also after the bang for other maintenance dates but I have also brought 1st dates there as the prices hedge the same.

I think the real skill is recognizing when its a shit test.

When its on your terms there is no room for shit tests.

Yeah...gotta admit there's this wine bar I like that has a great happy hour and it's a great spot to take girls. I've split cheese plates with girls but when I say splitting a cheese plate I mean eating 90% of it myself.

The more I process this situation and look back on my own experience, the more I realize it's entirely case-by-case. Some girls will modestly pick at a cheese plate, other girls have ordered an entire cheeseburger to themselves.

Better to err on the side of "No Apps" but make the occasional and well-justified exception.

[horn]

(10-23-2014 09:35 AM)calihunter Wrote:  

(10-23-2014 09:12 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

I can't actually believe this thread is still going…around in circles.

It's as if we're in a hamster wheel or on a carousel

I can't believe I'm swooping all these 8s and 9s for the cost of an $8 appetizer at the bar at 730pm.

3 drinks later and back to my pad while TeamNOAppetizer is looking for loose change on the bar floor, trying to ensure that their frame is strong.


TeamFeedHerChickenSkewersThenFuckHerFace

[Cattle Rustler]

Once you err on apps, one switches to the apps team. There can't be flip flopping around

In another note, went on a date yesterday. Drinks + wine bar with pate. Total cost, 60 bucks.

Got me a short (5'2") mexican with some DD tits, her small size made those tits look enormous.

Drinks + wine bar across the street is becoming my routine.

[Tuthmosis]

(10-25-2014 02:44 PM)horn Wrote:  

I can't believe I'm swooping all these 8s and 9s for the cost of an $8 appetizer at the bar at 730pm.

3 drinks later and back to my pad while TeamNOAppetizer is looking for loose change on the bar floor, trying to ensure that their frame is strong.

7-day suspension for insulting the membership and big-baller trolling.

[Veloce]

(10-25-2014 10:28 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

Once you err on apps, one switches to the apps team. There can't be flip flopping around

No way.

If you err on team apps, the worst case scenario is she plays you for the chump meal provider you are and before you know she's skipping down the street to get froyo with the next sucker she has lined up that night.

If you err on team NO apps, the worst case scenario is you wasted some time and maybe a drink on her.

I'd like quantitative evidence that shows how NOT buying a girl food costs you a bang. This might be uncharted territory in PUA mythology; the myth of the "No-App lost bang".

[Sourcecode]

Ok then. Since you want the data
Go run 50 dates with apps.
Go run 50 dates with no apps.
Tell us the outcome when you finish.
Then you can end this once and for all
http://www.rooshv.com/the-roosh-program

[Cattle Rustler]

(10-29-2014 09:25 PM)Veloce Wrote:  

(10-25-2014 10:28 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

Once you err on apps, one switches to the apps team. There can't be flip flopping around

No way.

If you err on team apps, the worst case scenario is she plays you for the chump meal provider you are and before you know she's skipping down the street to get froyo with the next sucker she has lined up that night.

If you err on team NO apps, the worst case scenario is you wasted some time and maybe a drink on her.

I'd like quantitative evidence that shows how NOT buying a girl food costs you a bang. This might be uncharted territory in PUA mythology; the myth of the "No-App lost bang".

This sounds like a job for the RooshVForum Institute of Economic Poosy Policy or whatever it's called.

[jayyrod1]

Team No Appetizer.

If I wanted to watch the bitch eat I would have asked her out to dinner.

If I wanted to lose frame and 6 bucks for her to be sober, longer...
I would have bought an appetizer.

[DVY]

I am a LA guy. I've done both ways- Team App and Team No-App. The best way is somewhere in between- Team Cheap Apps and Extremely Cheap Drinks.

I have little success w/the wine and dine. But the casual, lets sit at the bar and have light apps and drinks at my favorite casual (or even upscale casual) joint- MONEY! The key is to only go to spots that you would love to go too. Don't try to front and you'll come across as more genuine.

I plan my dates around casual Sushi spot (5 mins from my house) that has reverse happy hour. 8.30 till closing.

I order the food. I pick up the tab (35 for 2) ALWAYS.

I still get laid.

I think it has everything to do w/attitude and vibe. I tell girls to come to my house first, then we leave together for sushi (bait), then I plow her full of cheap hot sake (my favorite alcohol which acts like rocket fuel). I am wiling to take the loss on dinner. Its a cheap indication of what type of girl she is by how she eats, how she acts, how she moves around and how she talks.

[BodiPUA]

This is another situation where I get a sad insight into the horror that American guys have to deal with. In the UK it's no spring-picnic, and I often moan it's dire, but occasionally you read something or hear something from American dudes that makes you think "holy fuck, this can get a lot worse". I've never had a single girl in my life in London try this shit on with me.

The answer's obvious. Let her get what she wants, say nothing and make her pay for it at the end, regardless if she offered you a bite. If she doesn't immediately and explicitly insist on doing so when the bill comes she's a cunt. Make her pay anyway as a frame-crush then treat her like the cunt she is.

Letting a woman eat in front of you while you don't eat is actually quite good: they get self conscious if you stare at them and shift your body language and posture a little away from them. It lowers their status, and thus increases yours. Twice in Singapore I had girls turning up for Tinder 'drinks' at 7pm expecting to be fed by me. I'd walk them to a tiny cheap noodle bar, sit and let them eat in front of me while occasionally looking at their mouths and looking away, as a subtle sign of disgust. I'd fractionate between comfort and arrogance. Ten minutes later, noodles finished, walked them round the corner to the park. Push against fence, makeout. Both times. Mystery Method with food.

Of course it only works on girls still capable of feeling shame...

[BodiPUA]

Sorry, quick addendum.

This only applies to food. If there's the slightest chance a girl will fuck then I will happily buy and pour as much alcohol into her as possible.

I gauge their income. If it's a young student or waitress I buy it all. A career girl or lawyer, make her pay her way.

[Gatekeeper]

It is just part of the dating culture I suppose and part of the game. A few appetizers are merely fattening up the lamb for later debauchery lol.

[Rawmeo]

I also had a girl that I did this recipe on (no apps), and when coming home with me, she wanted to eat because she was very hungry. I ultimately got the bang, but it could have been easier with apps.

I would side on Team Apps.

[WestIndianArchie]

@BodiPua

Nice

[Sebastian]

Do you buy a drink on a casual date?
I met this chick from match. I already had a drink and when she came, i stood behind her when she was ordering a drink at a bar. I could pay for it but it wouldnt make any difference on her attraction level. So why?

[getdownonit]

What hasn't been said in this thread? I see both sides of this debate. To me, holding frame is invaluable, and most foods are not sexy or conducive to increasing her attraction to you. The one exception, for me, is seafood, since it is usually light (not talking deep fried cajun shrimp here), sometimes raw, and has a sensual texture and mouthfeel. Oysters are a prime, well documented example of a sensual food that would instantly add another dimension to a drinks date. Razor clams, mussels, scallops, octopus, barnacles, sea urchin, and sashimi are other solid options with simple preparations that would likely help your chances, as opposed to most typical American-style fried, heavy or otherwise unhealthy appetizers.

It helps that I love seafood and have been eating these things forever and am an expert on the subject compared to any woman in the US. Good places to find these would be oyster bars (preferably happy hour, to minimize cpn), or places with food from Japan or Spain.

[GeroMeroHero]

This happened with me last December
It is definitely a mark against her. This one at least asked and made a point to order the least expensive, and at least bothered to let me lead. Both of which were half marks and full marks for her.

I regret doing it though, gut feeling that I lost frame. It has not come back to bite me yet, but that is not a reason to let my guard down.
A good way of detecting this I think is to escalate how often we meet and gauge her reaction. Gonna try it.
Tentative siding with no apps as a newbie

[Suits]

I read a recent Dalrock post and immediately thought of this thread:

https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2015/03/23/ms-chivalry/

Key quote:

Quote:

At some level Ma understands this, because her complaint is that men want to have sex with women without buying dinner first:

Quote:

…on his date, he shelled out only $2.50 for an ice cream cone for the lady and then quickly got to the point: to secure what young men usually want from women.

[Carboneraser]

(10-04-2014 11:29 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

I respectfully disagree. The attitude you should have is "anything goes" and "money is no object". You're a baller right? She should respect that and order modestly. Ordering a plate of nachos isn't a big deal. You got off cheap. I usually do sushi. $5 a roll.

Not everybody has $$$$$$ for $5 a roll

Or for every single date to be an extra 15 cause some girl needed bruschetta

[coverdoc]

I think it can go both ways and every way. My full proof method is go to a restaurant/bar and order drinks/app if they want. Once the check comes if she makes an attempt to pull out her purse (AND THE VIBE WAS GOOD) I tell her I got it. If she doesn't and just looks at me I say " Oh you're one of those types of girls. I was going to pay, but you didn't even make an attempt at offering, so pay for your own." Works every time to establish good frame for me and let them know I'm not a sucker they can get a free meal from.

-CD

[Aliblahba]

I've been on several rvf meetups where the other members ordered apps/drinks and expected me to pay.



   

[Merenguero]

(04-11-2015 12:01 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

I've been on several rvf meetups where the other members ordered apps/drinks and expected me to pay.

Did you have to pay at that meetup when you ended up in the hospital?

[Cobra]

"I'm not hungry .. Wasn't really expecting to eat anything .. Put in the Order yourself if you'd like"

^^^ Not via text but I've used a similar but not as refined version of this before at the date. She was confused as fuck and didn't order.

She later turned out to be a gold digger.

[Aliblahba]

(04-11-2015 12:14 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  

(04-11-2015 12:01 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

I've been on several rvf meetups where the other members ordered apps/drinks and expected me to pay.

Did you have to pay at that meetup when you ended up in the hospital?

No idea. That night was a very painful blur. Luckily Athens don't have rooftop bars or it could have been worse.

On a serious note, the app debate is a hot topic during meetups. After meeting some of the younger members, I started to understand why they are Team No App. To them it isn't about the money, but rather a fear of getting fucked over. While I understand the principle, part of the growth process is to take some losses. There's no guarantees in life except for death and taxes. Whether or not a $10 app will lead to a bang, or the girl is a foodie whore should be irrelevant. Sweating the small stuff in life isn't conducive to proper game. I'm a seasoned player and still get stiffed from time to time. Chaulk it up to the game. But as Fisto said, have better game to increase the chances of identifying the girl's intentions. The stronger frame you exhibit, the less chance she'll try and take something for nothing.

Now let's go next level. I purposefully meet girls at bars that don't serve food. That solves the problem right off the bat. If 3 hrs they complain about being hungry, I invite them over to throw some meat on the grill. A good Texas girl worth even half her weight in salt won't ever turn down a ribeye grilled over charred mesquite.

[The Wire]

(04-11-2015 12:33 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

Now let's go next level. I purposefully meet girls at bars that don't serve food. That solves the problem right off the bat. If 3 hrs they complain about being hungry, I invite them over to throw some meat on the grill.

Depends where you live. There is a lot of towns where it's pretty much standard to have both food and alcohol.

Funny enough a girl tried to pull the appetizer card on me this week despite telling her I wanted to meet for drinks. I did the standard 'I'm fine but you can order something'. I just ate dinner before and was full. She obviously didn't order and said something about that she loves food which is a retarded statement. Saying you love food should be immediately eliminated from the lexicon of every human being on the planet.

At the end of the date she said we have to do this again but we will get food next time. Sure we will....