[CarCrashKid]

http://www.euronews.com/2014/01/21/injur...hospitals/

Seems like people are now "disappearing". It doesn't seem to give more info on that but either people are getting bagged and tagged or they are running to safety.

2 or 3 people have been killed today.

From my knowledge and experience, I would be pushing for a Euro focused government. Russia has got bad press for years now. Products and services are cheaper over there because of the spread of communism.

The reason doctors and lawyers don't have the same life style as the oligarchs is because they get paid as poorly as someone working in a less skilled job. The oligarchs are corrupt firstly and bringing in outside money to live in an economy where goods such as property is super cheap.

[durangotang]

The US Embassy in Kiev is surrounded right now:

[jimukr104]

(01-22-2014 07:11 PM)TripleG Wrote:  

(01-22-2014 06:53 PM)Onto Wrote:  

(01-22-2014 12:23 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Interestingly there was a survey and most Ukrainians wished Putin was their leader lol.

I wish Putin was our leader too.

I agree...US has a lot to learn from Russia. For example on how it deals with terror. Efficiently and quietly with no regard for the legal system. The western news won't tell you this but for the past year Russian special forces have been combing Dagestan, South Caucasus, Chechnya, and all the other shit-hole areas around Sochi and not arresting but executing suspected terrorists. Unfortunately in USA if we catch a suspect we give them a fair trial and waste taxpayers money.

Agreed. Its funny but we use to have to go to counter Terrorism training and haz-mat training every year. The instructors would get a lot of their info/training from Israeli counter-terrorism units. The instructors would at the end of the class tell us that most of what they are teaching us is political correctness 101 and the real shit that the Israelis taught them was to be "ignored".
It frustrated the Israeli's .They literally said" you stop the guys who look like terrorists and look dangerous before anyone else". But only in America, especially the NYPD where the brass tells you to concentrate on old white ladies and don't profile .And YES if the terrorist looking guy with a big guitar case walks by with shifty eyes, "don't single him out". Seriously you would be scared if you really knew what goes on in American counter terrorism. When transit cops do a bag search....one is free to leave and enter another station where no cops are searching. Its amazing that we don't get blown up by suitcase dirty bombs on a weekly basis!

I read Putin's biography....one thing that I liked about his thinking is his "crack down on media". Basically as we know the major media was run by oligarchs(mafia basically). He said something about a country has a responsibility to stop its criminals from controlling information. Could a sane person disagree? better the state than the Sopranos I say!
Btw i believe in the death sentence.... and don't think its inhumane like EU thinks. Being in a American prison for life is a waste of tax payer money and MORE inhumane. Seriously, imagine a life in prison with No hope and having to deal with all that gang shit that goes on.Life in prison is sad!

[DaveR]

(01-22-2014 07:28 PM)CarCrashKid Wrote:  

From my knowledge and experience

Do you have any? Because by the sound of what you wrote next, I don't think you've ever visited Russia or Ukraine.

(01-22-2014 07:28 PM)CarCrashKid Wrote:  

Russia has got bad press for years now. Products and services are cheaper over there because of the spread of communism.

The reason doctors and lawyers don't have the same life style as the oligarchs is because they get paid as poorly as someone working in a less skilled job. The oligarchs are corrupt firstly and bringing in outside money to live in an economy where goods such as property is super cheap.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[DaveR]

(01-22-2014 06:49 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

"Silly to note this, but I have worked with Ukrainians for 5 years and they have been some of the most productive people I have known. I am quite happy with the service I get at restaurants, bars and clubs (Odessa especially), which I will take over my native California any day"

NO not silly..but MOST of us who have been there find that hard to believe. Unless of course you are only hanging out in establishments that cater to tourists during tourist season.I can make a comedy satire of for SNL based on restaurants I have been to.(my wife is laughing at that customer service statement btw..she is Odessan).

I'll second that.

(01-22-2014 06:49 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Odessa has always been a Russian cultured city(with an international mix) ....but interestingly Odessan's put politics about Odessa before that of Ukraine! or Russia.

And that too. The cultures of Odessa and St. Petersburg don't align very much with those of other regions in their respective countries. Even the way women dress in St.P is different to the rest of the country.

[Courage Reborn]

(01-22-2014 07:28 PM)CarCrashKid Wrote:  

Products and services are cheaper over there because of the spread of communism.

The reason doctors and lawyers don't have the same life style as the oligarchs is because they get paid as poorly as someone working in a less skilled job. The oligarchs are corrupt firstly and bringing in outside money to live in an economy where goods such as property is super cheap.

[jimukr104]

(01-22-2014 07:52 PM)DaveR Wrote:  

(01-22-2014 06:49 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

"Silly to note this, but I have worked with Ukrainians for 5 years and they have been some of the most productive people I have known. I am quite happy with the service I get at restaurants, bars and clubs (Odessa especially), which I will take over my native California any day"

NO not silly..but MOST of us who have been there find that hard to believe. Unless of course you are only hanging out in establishments that cater to tourists during tourist season.I can make a comedy satire of for SNL based on restaurants I have been to.(my wife is laughing at that customer service statement btw..she is Odessan).

I'll second that.

(01-22-2014 06:49 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Odessa has always been a Russian cultured city(with an international mix) ....but interestingly Odessan's put politics about Odessa before that of Ukraine! or Russia.

And that too. The cultures of Odessa and St. Petersburg don't align very much with those of other regions in their respective countries. Even the way women dress in St.P is different to the rest of the country.

I second that!
I once said Odessan's even have there own dress style. Both St. P and Odessa are unique from rest of FSU..leads to the snob factor unfortunately.

St. P was the city built to be a grand Opulent Western city in Russia. Odessa was the city built by foreigners to be a haven for undesirables and the weird. Interesting as Mark Twain notes..they copied the square block grid of NYC (the 5 points), A similar seaport town. Then they built buildings a la Paris(mayor was French).I think they vote on what ever puts MONEY in their pockets!

[TravelingDoc]

(01-22-2014 07:11 PM)TripleG Wrote:  

(01-22-2014 06:53 PM)Onto Wrote:  

(01-22-2014 12:23 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Interestingly there was a survey and most Ukrainians wished Putin was their leader lol.

I wish Putin was our leader too.

I agree...US has a lot to learn from Russia. For example on how it deals with terror. Efficiently and quietly with no regard for the legal system. The western news won't tell you this but for the past year Russian special forces have been combing Dagestan, South Caucasus, Chechnya, and all the other shit-hole areas around Sochi and not arresting but executing suspected terrorists. Unfortunately in USA if we catch a suspect we give them a fair trial and waste taxpayers money.

Sorry. This will be a long post. BUT I read the above and I have to reply. I would like to first state that I respect what the other members had said. I would just like to put some facts on the table.

Putin is a very popular leader in Ukraine and Russia as a whole. But very unpopular in the main cities. So, for the uneducated, Putin is popular. The reason why have to do with how he is portrait in the media (how most non-cities get their news). He use an age of old method that works for centuries in that area. He is the "Tsar", he is good and great. It is the people around him that is the problem, he doesn't know what is being done in his name. The "bad" people keep the bad news from him. When he find out there is a problem, he fire/punish the "bad" people and solve the problem. "oh, only if Putin knew our suffering, he will save us." You see this in the Russia news all the time. Like in Sochi, there was a problem with the ski jump. It was so bad that it made all the news. So, Putin fly in, on TV tell the man responsible that he have to fix it. It doesn't matter if the problem is fixed or not after he leave (usually, it is). So, all the good things is from Putin and all the problems is because of the bad people around him. It is not his fault if everyone around him is lying to him. That is why he is shown on TV to do all those "manly" things that we all get a laugh out of. It is the ultimate image, the Man, the Father. (ps. that's why you have to be Man in FSU to pickup girls and have resources (fake or real) to back it up.)

Do you REALLY want him as your leader? Do you have any idea how rich he is? How corrupt he is? Do you have any idea how hard to run a honest business in Russia/Moscow? How would you like to have made a successful business and been told that you have to sell or go to jail? I had met honest people in Russia and FSU, one thing that they know is that if they make too much wave, they will either be dead or go to jail. So, you have to ask yourself "Do you have to the guts to die or go to jail for what you believe?" If you do and you believe that Putin should be your leader, you should moved to Russia.
Yes, I know not everyone of those people protesting in Ukraine have that believe but LOTS do. It is those everyday people that show up when needed that I admire.

Dagestan, South Caucasus, Chechnya. Hmm. I hate to tell you this but Russian Special forces had not be "executing suspected terrorists" for the last year. They had been doing it for the last ten+ years. Please read up on Chechnya. One of the stupidest thing anyone can do is to fuck with Chechnya (they are the BADDEST of badass out there). In all of history , they are some of the most feared mercenary/solider around. They are the ultimate guerrilla fighters. They are very tribal and remember blood feud forever. When Soviet was breaking up, Chechnya voted to succeed from Russia, Russia will not let them go. WHY? oil. Chechnya area is a major oil pipeline hub. Russia invaded to keep them. Russia was defeated and driven out. A peace treaty was signed. Russia actually start sending money to Chechnya to help rebuild but most of the money was stolen. BUT the problem was contain. "Terrorist" actually tried to spread out from this area to Dagestan and FAIL. So, how did it all go to shit? You will remember there was a bunch of bombing in Russia Cities in 1999. Well, those were blamed on Chechnya but there were evidence that is was planned by the FSB (Russia Secret Service). BTW this is when Putin (a former FSB officer) was in Yeltsin government. This time Russia learn it lesson. They just bomb the hell out of Chechnya before moving troops in. This took 5-6 months before they took back Chechnya. Russia install a new Leader/Ruler in Chechnya with the army to back him up. And started the real oppression on anyone that wanted independence. OH, just so happens this is when Putin became President of Russia (war leader anyone?). With this new Governor of Chechnya, all those fighters from before start to run to other area of Caucasus. Before all these, other area of South Caucasus (Dagestan) was peaceful. Now, it is run by the guys with the biggest guns (government, warlord, mafia).
So, no they have not been hunting terrorist to keep Sochi safe.

I am sorry for this rant. We all complaint about things. BUT I just ask that you go somewhere else first and really see what it is like. Get to know the facts. Why so many people still want to go to the EU, USA? Please don't compare shithole like Russia to the US. (disclaimer. I am not from US. I actually don't like/want to live there). There are good and bad in every country. The good in NA/EU is so much better than bad because you haven't really seen how bad it is out there.

(01-22-2014 07:11 PM)TripleG Wrote:  

Unfortunately in USA if we catch a suspect we give them a fair trial and waste taxpayers money.

Is a fair trial such a bad thing?

[CaliforniaSupreme]

Throw a Molotov cocktail at me and see what happens. Expect a lead shower coming your way. These cops should be shooting at the people harming them.

[Titan]

Lol.

[jimukr104]

"TripleG Wrote:
Unfortunately in USA if we catch a suspect we give them a fair trial and waste taxpayers money.
Is a fair trial such a bad thing?"

It is when its obvious the person is guilty and they get off because they have a good lawyer, especially if they get off on a technicality.. The streets are filled with guilty crooks that have gotten off while jails are filled with some who aren't such bad apples. America actually puts people in jail for tax evasion and financial stuff more longer than assaults and murderers.Scary? its true. Oh yeah crimes against women also get you more time.

[TravelingDoc]

(01-22-2014 11:20 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

"TripleG Wrote:
Unfortunately in USA if we catch a suspect we give them a fair trial and waste taxpayers money.
Is a fair trial such a bad thing?"

It is when its obvious the person is guilty and they get off because they have a good lawyer, especially if they get off on a technicality.. The streets are filled with guilty crooks that have gotten off while jails are filled with some who aren't such bad apples. America actually puts people in jail for tax evasion and financial stuff more longer than assaults and murderers.Scary? its true. Oh yeah crimes against women also get you more time.

So, you would prefer that the person with money instead of hiring a good lawyer to hire the cop and arrest/shoot you instead?

I am not saying that US legal system is the best but what will you replace it with? Who will be the guy that said who live and who die? I know all about the injustice of US system. Cocaine you get a suspended sentence, Crack Cocaine you get jail. (rich people use cocaine, poor people use crack) I am just asking ONE question. What will you replace it with? No legal system is perfect. Not US, Canada, EU. Would you like the Chinese system? Your family will find out you had been arrested after you had been trialed and shoot. Put in labour camp without trial for protesting (Laogai). Middle East, foreigner testimony is never believe over a native. Rape must be witness by 4 male to be believe.

Which system do you prefer? I would rather improve the system we got. To me, it seems to be the best one out there right now.
Are the "streets are filled with guilty crooks" ?

[iknowexactly]

' Wrote:

It is when its obvious

you can't be serious advocating the totally abstract term of "obvious" as a legal definition.

You have any idea how many brilliant, trained people over how many centuries have tried to design effective legal systems? To think it's easy is absurd.

[iknowexactly]

(01-22-2014 07:28 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

The US Embassy in Kiev is surrounded right now:

I think everyone wants it that way , yes?

Ukraine does NOT want the US Embassy damaged, and the US pissed at them too like some of the EU is.

And we don't want any more diplomats murdered.

[EisenBarde]

If something happens to the U.S embassy, Obama doesn't have the cajones to do anything about it in the shadow of Putin.

Thankfully for our State Department, it isn't some backwater consulate and we have Marines at the gates instead of indigenous mercs.

[CaliforniaSupreme]

Using some broscience here:
"A U.S. official said the U.S. military will have up to two warships and several transport aircraft on standby under a contingency plan to help evacuate American officials and athletes from the Winter Olympics, if ordered, a U.S. official said."

Under the assumption that gunships are somewhere in the area already and there are Marines onboard, they should be able to respond if SHTF. Ukraine and Sochi aren't too far away from each other. Anyone know if the USMC Embassy Security Group has extra deployments? They don't want another Benghazi on their hands, I'm sure.

[Akula]

(01-22-2014 07:04 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

(01-22-2014 06:53 PM)Onto Wrote:  

(01-22-2014 12:23 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Interestingly there was a survey and most Ukrainians wished Putin was their leader lol.

I wish Putin was our leader too.

I think Putin is as 'alpha' as the next man, but this Eastern Europe/Russia worship has its limits. There's a reason why thousands of people are rioting.

I don't think most of us are 'worshipping' Eastern Europe/Russia really, even though sometimes it might come across that way. Certainly I'm not - it's got major issues for sure, to put it mildly. After almost 5 years here I am completely frustrated with the mentality in Russia and the way things just don't get done, the corruption, the lack of willingness to work together, the inefficiencies, how nobody trusts each other, and the lack of a clear rule of law sometimes. Not to mention poor customer service....

But what living here does do is give you a great perspective on the pluses and minuses of living in the US/UK etc. and other lands and show you how there are many places around the globe where I know I can settle and live reasonably well - even Russia. And, furthermore, it shows you how hypocritical the supposedly "democratic" west can be. The more I've lived here the more I see how utterly corrupt the US is in many ways and how the government really has a ton of power over people. It's simple stuff like the "California Police State" but goes way deeper. As jimukr said, look at how the press covers Ukraine/Russia and the blatantly different way it's done. If people were attacking cops in the US in XYZ city there would be complete martial law I'd say (actually that would probably hold true in Russia as well - they don't f*ck around, and nobody wants to go back to the chaos of the post-Wall coming down "developing democracy" stage).

I don't think I need to ramble on about Feminism, PC-culture, divorce rape etc., as we all know the dangers and the day to day risks of it in the West. I know it's apples and oranges, but suffice it to say that the rise of the police state in Western democracies is real and tangible, and it really calls into question how we see ourselves as truly 'free' in many ways. I think you need to live outside the US for awhile to appreciate a lot of that really.

Finally, even though I live in Moscow, I'm by no means the expert and am open to learning more, especially about Ukraine, a country that's similar but obviously different than Russia. However, I'd say that, inevitably, sitting at home watching the events unfold on CNN rarely gives you the full story. Just look at the 'spin' the major mainstream news outlets put on Egypt and what ended up happening there (and I'm not saying Ukraine is like Egypt, not even close (even though many Americans probably think it's similar!!)).

[Akula]

(01-23-2014 01:05 AM)CaliforniaSupreme Wrote:  

Using some broscience here:
"A U.S. official said the U.S. military will have up to two warships and several transport aircraft on standby under a contingency plan to help evacuate American officials and athletes from the Winter Olympics, if ordered, a U.S. official said."

Under the assumption that gunships are somewhere in the area already and there are Marines onboard, they should be able to respond if SHTF. Ukraine and Sochi aren't too far away from each other. Anyone know if the USMC Embassy Security Group has extra deployments? They don't want another Benghazi on their hands, I'm sure.

Wow so these ships will be in the Black Sea I guess? Sort of funny to think of US warships patrolling right in Russia's backyard.

Let's not forget that the Saudi Wahabbis - who the US have completely supported for well over 50 years - are some of the biggest funders of the Chechen and Dagestani rebels. Actually, the House of Saud are supporting strict, radical Islam throughout the globe and use the money we give them for oil to 'spread the word' - from Chechnya to Kazakhstan to Indonesia.

So we support a completely corrupt Saudi royal family (to ensure that the Muslim fundamentalists don't gain control and f*ck up the balance of power and oil supply coming out of SA) and in turn they appeal to their own Muslim extremists by maintaining strict Islamic law at home and also by exporting Wahabbism (the most incredibly strict and unforgiving brand of Islam), weapons and funding to extremist groups outside the country, including (and according to a book I read especially) the Caucuses. Then, inevitably, unrest and bombings occur followed by the US getting extremely worried about the potential for Islamic terrorism during the Olympic Games (when we're not focusing on and highlighting the overarching and top priority for 'gay rights' of course). And that means we need even more safety precautions (and money) to fight a problem we're actually helping to create (!). It's just all so f*cked up at this point really....

I kinda doubt the average American gets the irony there....

[Brosemite]

^^ Funny you mention the customer service thing. I got much better service & hospitality from people at the St. Petersburg Airport under tough circumstances (arrival & departure) opposed to when I arrived back into the US (Houston & Dallas), where security & baggage ppl acted like complete dicks to me despite my polite demeanor.

[TravelingDoc]

(01-22-2014 07:28 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

The US Embassy in Kiev is surrounded right now:

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-protest-us-embassy-056/

The event was organized by Kievans for Clean City, a new pro-government activist group which has spoken out against the rioters and violence in downtown Kiev.

Several thousand demonstrators are taking part, urging the US to “stop sponsoring” mass unrests, local media reported.

“The US is behind everything that is happening in Kiev’s downtown right now. The financing is coming from over there. This has to be stopped. That is what we came out here to say to the whole world: ‘US - stop! US - there needs to be peace in Ukraine,’” said Ivan Protsenko, one of the movement’s leaders.

[TravelingDoc]

(01-23-2014 01:17 AM)Akula Wrote:  

sitting at home watching the events unfold on CNN rarely gives you the full story.

I agree 100%. If you want, you can actually find something close to the facts if you are willing to dug. CNN, The Guardian, The Economist, Al Jazeera, BBC, RT news (sorry, can't even look at FOX news. The talking head there just make me puke.) Every country have an English base newpaper/news blog. Read it and make up your own mind. There are so many choices now, we get so used to only go to the sources we know and don't search out others.

[rastignac]

This Washington Post article has decent information in English about ethnicity, language and politics in Ukraine.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worl...-protests/

[rastignac]

(01-23-2014 03:13 AM)TravelingDoc Wrote:  

(01-23-2014 01:17 AM)Akula Wrote:  

sitting at home watching the events unfold on CNN rarely gives you the full story.

I agree 100%. If you want, you can actually find something close to the facts if you are willing to dug. CNN, The Guardian, The Economist, Al Jazeera, BBC, RT news (sorry, can't even look at FOX news. The talking head there just make me puke.) Every country have an English base newpaper/news blog. Read it and make up your own mind. There are so many choices now, we get so used to only go to the sources we know and don't search out others.

Unfortunately, watching CNN gives you little more than exposure to a bunch of advertising and spin.

[rastignac]

(01-22-2014 08:12 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

(01-22-2014 07:52 PM)DaveR Wrote:  

(01-22-2014 06:49 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

"Silly to note this, but I have worked with Ukrainians for 5 years and they have been some of the most productive people I have known. I am quite happy with the service I get at restaurants, bars and clubs (Odessa especially), which I will take over my native California any day"

NO not silly..but MOST of us who have been there find that hard to believe. Unless of course you are only hanging out in establishments that cater to tourists during tourist season.I can make a comedy satire of for SNL based on restaurants I have been to.(my wife is laughing at that customer service statement btw..she is Odessan).

I'll second that.

(01-22-2014 06:49 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Odessa has always been a Russian cultured city(with an international mix) ....but interestingly Odessan's put politics about Odessa before that of Ukraine! or Russia.

And that too. The cultures of Odessa and St. Petersburg don't align very much with those of other regions in their respective countries. Even the way women dress in St.P is different to the rest of the country.

I second that!
I once said Odessan's even have there own dress style. Both St. P and Odessa are unique from rest of FSU..leads to the snob factor unfortunately.

St. P was the city built to be a grand Opulent Western city in Russia. Odessa was the city built by foreigners to be a haven for undesirables and the weird. Interesting as Mark Twain notes..they copied the square block grid of NYC (the 5 points), A similar seaport town. Then they built buildings a la Paris(mayor was French).I think they vote on what ever puts MONEY in their pockets!

Nice astute thread about Odessa (Odessa first, Ukraine and Russia second). But, I stand by having good experiences with the restaurant culture there. I am talking about upscale places locals go to. My experiences in Lviv and Kyiv restaurants has in contrast often been a painful, comic ordeal.

[TravelingDoc]

(01-22-2014 09:22 PM)CaliforniaSupreme Wrote:  

Throw a Molotov cocktail at me and see what happens. Expect a lead shower coming your way. These cops should be shooting at the people harming them.

Doing this will only the cops look bad and get the government blame.

Honestly, all these didn't need to have happens. Viktor Yanukovych (president of Ukraine) just got stupid. Ok, he didn't sign the EU trade agreement. He was playing Russia against EU for his own benefit. So, people protest against him. These went on for 2 1/2 months and not going anyway. The opposition was disorganized (there are three main oppositions and they don't agree with each other). All the other protests at 2nd tie cities had die off after a few weeks. There were less and less people at the protest at Kiev. It was becoming a Social event. They were not even the main item on the news anymore.

So, what did Yanukovych do? He pass a bunch of Anti-Protest laws. "Under the new laws, protesters are banned from wearing helmets, pitching tents and using bullhorns and sound systems during mass protests. Violators face steep fines and prison sentences of up to 15 years.
Motorcades of more than five cars are also banned, a tactic used by protesters in recent weeks to blockade the private homes of high-level government officials as well as government offices. These blockades are banned under the new laws, with violations punishable by the suspension of a driving license or confiscation of a vehicle."
Does he need these laws? Of course not. Pitching tents? Does it have a permit? Nope, tear it down. Protestor wearing helmets? He is jaywalking, arrest him. Bullhorns and sound systems? Disturbing the peace, arrest him. Cars blocking the road? Fine them for illegal parking. take them in for safety inspections. What did the law accomplish? People in his own government resigned or was dismissed (including Head of Ukrainian ground forces). And it added a lot of fuel to the protest.

He should had learn from Turkey, Russia and China. He didn't have to hurry and get rid of the protest. He just got $15billion out of Russia with no string attach. Ukraine was running out of cash, not anymore. He had enough to last him maybe till 2015 election. The number of protestors were getting smaller and smaller. When the protest had gotten small enough, move in with police and arrest and removed them in a very short time.

BUT. Yanukovych has limited shelf life and he knows it. He grow up in the old Soviet and he is a thug at heart. His family had stolen so much over the last 3 years so fast and in such obvious way that there is no way for him to cash out. He need another term or two of control of Ukriane get the money out and find a place to go. The only way for him to survive is to either remain in control, get money out and go to another country (even in Russia he is not safe, no use to Russia, he become a bargaining chip), fuck up Ukraine so much that when his step down Ukraine will not go after him.
Yanukovych doesn't have the mentality or time to play the long game. Ukraine is running out of money. All the large export business own by oligarchs don't pay taxes (none of them supposedly is making any profit even when running at full capacity.)

How would you like to live there?