[Anonybrit]

The philosophy on this board seems to be that so long as you're not horrendously ugly, you can basically be Archer..

I'm torn between believing that and actually thinking that at the end of the day it really does come down to looks. I'm not talking about myself particularly, I'm a little above average and with a little age and weight to me I can push myself right up but I don't club and I'm not really look for casual sex so I'm just talking in general.

You guys say it doesn't matter if you're muscular, you don't need to hit the gym, you can be skinny/slightly chubby and still pull huge numbers with game.

You guys say that facially you just have to be at least pleasant to look at, you don't have to be stunning, that game can counteract all of these defects.

On the one hand I hardly ever really see hot girls with less than hot guys. That girl with the big tits, tiny waist and huge ass is almost always with the guy packing huge guns and pecs visible through his fucking coat.

Then again there are notable exceptions. Take Steve Coogan, for all intents and purpose he could be be Alan Partridge right now, and yet he's not, he's off on drug fuelled sex binges in Hollywood.


So my question is... for the average guy who isn't a Hollywood actor or otherwise very high status, does it really boil down to looks and a bit of game or are girls really that turned on by personality that they will go with a 7/10 with great game over the bland 9/10 dude?

[Jack D. Serrano]

Statistically speaking, the impact of looks can't be denied. The whole looks aren't important meme really holds back a lot of guys, especially average looking guys who don't like to throw big bucks/VIP at girls.

For the average guy is isn't rocking VIP/High Status/Hollywood Game (read: attracting girls who are looking for the money ticket rather than a girl who honestly likes you) THE BEST thing you can do to improve your results with women is get your looks and image down Tight.

If you meet lots of women and look your best (rocking a nice suit works well) and then follow that up with being funny, cool and chill then game doesn't matter. Do that and you'll end up meeting and dating wayy better women than most guys ever will.

I've seen the hypothetical arguments about why looks don't matter such as - "My buddy is a great looking guy. I'm ugly but I get way more girls cause I got game! He gets none. See, looks don't matter."

Those arguments have nothing to do with looks and everything to do with lots of other variables like: The amount of women he meets, his chillness/weirdness around them, does he shoot himself in the foot, etc.

Here is how to prove the impact of looks (and anyone here can test it yourself):
Go talk to 100 girls dressed in jeans and a T-shirt then go talk to 100 girls in a nice suit. Say the same thing. Have the same conversations. Make sure ALL variables are the same EXCEPT your looks. Watch the massive difference in how girls treat you. Most of you don't even need to go out and do that experiment because it's obvious, "Yeah, duh, of course I'll get better results when I dress nicer." So much for looks don't matter.

Getting your looks as good as you possibly can and meeting as many women as you possibly can are the two things that will get you more results with more and better women than anything else you could possibly do. That and cake. Cause c'mon. Everybody loves cake.

[Dash Global]

Looks will get you in the door ALOT easier and faster.

Girls will open you making life again ALOT easier.

You will be Alpha of the group (not necessarily in the game department, but what I mean is when you and your friends first approach a set of girls the best looking guy will automatically be put as priority and option #1)

Which is fucking great because you will almost always get "first dibs".

Now after that initial meeting / phase the looks factor drops STEEPLY in importance. The DHV and interest your looks brought you out the gate will quickly wear off if you have zero game and personality. Thus making your looks worthless for the most part.

I dont really believe the I only see hot girls with equally hot guys. I see plenty of hot girls with average to below average looking dudes ALL THE TIME.

And most ELITE bitches mainly go for the rich or famous dudes that 8 times out of 10 does not look good.

Game and Looks both have their strong points and uses.

Obviously a good looking dude with tight game is the cream of the crop. The complete ALPHA.

I would take being average looking with AIR TIGHT GAME over being good looking with zero - shitty game EVERYDAY.

[Deluge]

After Dash's epic post, all I can add is: No matter how good looking or tall you are, hit the gym, lose weight and get ripped. Then work your wardrobe compliment your muscles. Someone on the forum said they've never seen a ripped guy dating a fat or plain girl. They were right.

[Lothario]

(10-14-2011 07:52 AM)Jack D. Serrano Wrote:  

If you meet lots of women and look your best (rocking a nice suit works well) and then follow that up with being funny, cool and chill then game doesn't matter. Do that and you'll end up meeting and dating wayy better women than most guys ever will.

@ Jack , what you stated above is actually GAME

1. "Meet lots of women" : Numbers Game

2. "Rocking a Nice Suit" ....... look throught throught the Forum , G beats us with Suit game so many times, just putting a suit on brings your game up by 2 points.

3. "Being funny, cool and chill"..... your vibe .

You seem to understand the concepts alright but your statement Game doesn't matter is offending, Come on young Jedi accept the GAME with an Open mind.

I do see your point Looks do matter/help your game, If you don't have them , It is what it is and you play with the cards you are dealt with and do all u stated above to make up for the looks.

Agree 100 % with last line from Dash's post .

Game on Players......

[Jack D. Serrano]

(10-14-2011 08:27 AM)Lothario Wrote:  

You seem to understand the concepts alright but your statement Game doesn't matter is offending, Come on young Jedi accept the GAME with an Open mind.

My apologies if you were offended.

When I said game, above, I was referring to things like:
-Being alpha
-Money game
-Status game
-DHV's
-Text game
-Phone game
-Building comfort
-Building attraction
-Making her feel qualified
-Persuading a girl to like you when she doesn't already like you
-Plowing through LMR

If you always look your best (this is especially important for average to below average looking guys), are chill and fun, and meet tons of women (30 a day take only takes about 45-60 minutes if your a busy guy living in a big city) you will be able to have more and easier success with much higher quality women than guys doing the above things.

You can call it numbers game or whatever you want.
I call it efficient, easy and stress-free.

In my experience this is simply the easiest way to meet and date extremely high quality women who honestly like me, are loyal, honest and highly sexual. Barring being rich & famous (which will get you a disproportionate amount of women who don't honestly like you, requiring you to disqualify much more quickly and ruthlessly than normal) this has been the easiest and fastest way forward for the average guys I've met who are in happily date one or many beautiful, successful women who are totally in love with the guys.

This is simply my point of view. Nothing I say will take away the fact that many guys have gotten sex after using the above-mentioned techniques. I'm still working on a time-travel machine for trying to re-write the past.

[Pilgrim37]

So,do you think it was Bernie's looks that got her wet??

[Kish]

Sadly...as this forum gets bigger these stupid "Looks matter" threads will keep popping up. "Looks matter" threads feed beta insecurities. If you think "Looks" are everything then shut the computer off and hit the gym.

There are many threads on here about improving your look.

Looks are a part of your game.

(10-14-2011 04:21 AM)Anonybrit Wrote:  

The philosophy on this board seems to be that so long as you're not horrendously ugly, you can basically be Archer..

Who said that? There's many threads on here about style and improving your look. Even in Roosh's blog post from Monday he says you should optimize your look.

(10-14-2011 07:52 AM)Jack D. Serrano Wrote:  

(read: attracting girls who are looking for the money ticket rather than a girl who honestly likes you)

(10-14-2011 08:52 AM)Jack D. Serrano Wrote:  

In my experience this is simply the easiest way to meet and date extremely high quality women who honestly like me, are loyal, honest and highly sexual.

Hmm. So women who just like you for your looks "honestly" like you?

[haywire]

(10-14-2011 04:21 AM)Anonybrit Wrote:  

The philosophy on this board seems to be that so long as you're not horrendously ugly, you can basically be Archer..

I'm torn between believing that and actually thinking that at the end of the day it really does come down to looks. I'm not talking about myself particularly, I'm a little above average and with a little age and weight to me I can push myself right up but I don't club and I'm not really look for casual sex so I'm just talking in general.

Then again there are notable exceptions. Take Steve Coogan, for all intents and purpose he could be be Alan Partridge right now, and yet he's not, he's off on drug fuelled sex binges in Hollywood.

My understanding is that you have to have some sort of a "pull", it could be looks or money or fame or a special ability, and combining that with good game leads to desired outcomes. A "pull" in itself is nothing more than a pull literally - it gets your foot in the door, but game is the only real propellant to sex. Hence the often quoted stereotype of "an average looking guy with tighter game getting more tail than his better looking buddy". I know a lot of goodlooking dudes who get a lot of first dates.

Quote:

On the one hand I hardly ever really see hot girls with less than hot guys. That girl with the big tits, tiny waist and huge ass is almost always with the guy packing huge guns and pecs visible through his fucking coat.

It's coz that guy is usually the best available option, all other things being equal. Have you heard the story about how that 5'2 Bernie Ecclestone swooped his 6'2 Armani model ex-wife?

Quote:

You guys say it doesn't matter if you're muscular, you don't need to hit the gym, you can be skinny/slightly chubby and still pull huge numbers with game.

I doubt anyone here subscribes to that school of thought. Being muscular and hitting the gym have a substantial effect on your hit-rate with women.

Quote:

So my question is... for the average guy who isn't a Hollywood actor or otherwise very high status, does it really boil down to looks and a bit of game or are girls really that turned on by personality that they will go with a 7/10 with great game over the bland 9/10 dude?

People generally date others who are about the same social status as them. Preppy kids would only date other preppy kids. Hollywood people would only date other hollywood people. For example, I personally don't think Jennifer Aniston more than an 8 anyday, and one can easily spot way hotter girls than her in a club on a Friday night but Brad still married her.
So I think an average looking guy with great game one can definitely pull hotties provided they have more or less the same social standing as him.

edit: wow, just as I got done typing this post I see someone has already posted an image of Bernie and his wife!

[Mighty Mouse]

Just to give you an example:

(10-14-2011 04:21 AM)Anonybrit Wrote:  

That girl with the big tits, tiny waist and huge ass

I do not care at all about a girl's breast size, so big tits is neither something positive nor negative, it's just neutral for me. Tiny waist is good, I like that. But a "huge ass" (Kardashian or Shakira style) is almost a deal-breaker for me. A girl could have the most beautiful face, if she has a "huge ass", she doesn't have a chance...

And it's the same from a girl's perspective. Some like their guys to be as tall as possible, while others prefer them to be 5ft11. Some like slender guys (like Johnny Depp for example), while others like them muscular. Some like "cute" or even slightly feminine faces (see Orlando Bloom for instance), other like very masculine faces with big jaws etc.

To put it into one sentence, while some basic traits of beauty are objective, there is a wide range of subjectivity in what type we are attracted to.

We can all agree that a fat whale is somewhere in the 1-3 range. But when it comes to higher numbers, it gets more difficult. My 9 is your 7, your 5 is my 8, etc. It's the same for women.

[Jack D. Serrano]

(10-14-2011 09:26 AM)rakishness Wrote:  

(10-14-2011 08:52 AM)Jack D. Serrano Wrote:  

In my experience this is simply the easiest way to meet and date extremely high quality women who honestly like me, are loyal, honest and highly sexual.

Hmm. So women who just like you for your looks "honestly" like you?

Nah.
Not at all.
Her liking your looks tells you one thing: She likes your looks.
Finding out if she actually likes you is a whole different process that takes a long time.

Lots of women could like a guy simply for the status that his looks give her but not actually really like the guy for who he is.

Ultimately, wanting a woman who actually likes you for who you are (not your money, looks, status, lines) is a personal choice. Neither good nor bad. Simply a choice that leads to different results.

BUT, women who actually like you will like your look from the get-go (even if you don't consider yourself handsome). This becomes more and more true as you interview more and more high status/power couples who have been together happily for years without all the messed up problems that Hollywood and the mass media would have you believe is normal in a relationship.

Guys who are socially normal would be surprised at how easy it is to date and play with more and much better women if they only spent time finding the ones who liked their looks from the get-go and quickly and efficiently disqualified all the rest.

[Batata]

(10-14-2011 08:24 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

After Dash's epic post, all I can add is: No matter how good looking or tall you are, hit the gym, lose weight and get ripped. Then work your wardrobe compliment your muscles. Someone on the forum said they've never seen a ripped guy dating a fat or plain girl. They were right.

I would agree in saying that fitness, particularly strength/power training is the best way to add a huge boost to your game. When you are stronger and faster than 99% of guys in any venue, you automatically assume alpha male status by default. It will be much easier to assume the "alpha" role because you will subliminally believe it.

Note, I said strength training, not training for big muscles. There is a huge difference.

[Vicious]

Can we just agree to link new posters to one of the many "looks" threads on the forum when they create a new one instead of humouring them when they haven't even bothered to use the search function?

[MikeCF]

Lose weight, gain some muscle, stop dressing like a slob, see a dermatologist about your acne, shave your head if you're balding, fix your teeth. Save up for plastic surgery is need be.

Premise of debate is a cop-out.

Unless you have 3rd degree burns or something, your looks can be improved.

Yet guys don't want to, so they talk about this bullshit all day instead of going to the gym, taking a shower, and looking better.

[Nonpareil]

The dating game is different for ugly guys than good looking guys.

Every guy should learn game, at least know the core concepts and how to put them into practice, but good looking guys need to use less of the concepts, since game was designed to get women attracted to you, and if you`re good looking and she's already attracted to you, then half your work is already done for you.


Part of the reason early-game literature (by guys like Neil Strauss and Mystery) fails good looking men is that it was initially designed as a way for average or below-average looking men to swoop in under-the-radar to pick up girls (Roosh, G and others now accommodate this much better). I mean I get it, look at Mystery and Neil Strauss; Mystery wears fuzzy hats and is built like a coat-rack and Neil Strauss looks like Ben Kingsley in Gandhi; these are the type of dudes who the average hot babe wouldn't talk to for more than a minute if they failed to be intriguing.

If you are good looking and you're dropping huge value demonstrations, heavy negs and qualifying endlessly you run the risk of looking try-hard. Good looking dudes, focus less on creating attraction and more on building comfort and rapport.

The point I'm trying to make is; if you have looks, learn game, but eventually keep what works and what doesn't. If you don't have looks, learn game and know how to use every trick in the book when the time comes.

[scorpio]

I think the importance of a man's looks matters less to a girl as she gets older.

For young girls, looks is really important as that is a measure of a guy's status. Even in high school, you'll recall the good-looking shy guy getting female attention. But who got the hottest chicks in high school? The most popular and respected, whoever the hell he was. The alpha. It's just not possible to be the social alpha and not have game.

[oldnemesis]

(10-14-2011 04:21 AM)Anonybrit Wrote:  

The philosophy on this board seems to be that so long as you're not horrendously ugly, you can basically be Archer..

It is.
Think of any party you attended, was the most popular guy there always the tallest one with the ripped abs?

Style - the dude who wrote "The Game" is bald, skinny and 5"6. He was labeled PUA of the year.

Tyler from RSD who I watched in action is maybe 5"10, and looks pretty normal. In fact NONE of the RSD instructors I've met were 6" athletes with model looks and ripped abs. You see them on the street, and you wouldn't give them the second look. However their skills were tremendous.

Quote:

You guys say it doesn't matter if you're muscular, you don't need to hit the gym, you can be skinny/slightly chubby and still pull huge numbers with game.

This is correct. Make sure, however, that you're not thinking of "pulling huge numbers" as "being able to fuck any woman they want". The latter one is simply impossible.

Quote:

You guys say that facially you just have to be at least pleasant to look at, you don't have to be stunning, that game can counteract all of these defects.

Read how the attraction works for females. It is different. You seem to miss some basics.

[Tugboat]

Personally, I've always avoided listening to any advice that contains comparisons to Hollywood/celebrity/famous folk in the world of attracting the opposite sex.
I believe it's completely irrelevant to the regular guy-trying-to-do-the-best-he-can.
If you're a Steve Coogan or Bernie Ecclestone ugly-looking mo'fo and you're posting on internet forums about picking up girls, it's highly unlikely you're going to live their kind of lifestyles.
If Gary Lineker wasn't an ex-world class footballer, TV presenter and potato chip thief, I doubt he'd be goosing Danielle. Neither would Lemmy or Mick Jagger have shagged all those women.
Me, my face is a cross between Mick Jagger, Arnold Schwarzenneger and Harry Redknapp and I need to work hard at the gym and dress the best I can to be the best I can be, but if I was world famous I'd most likely just have sit on my arse doing fuck all and still get top-quality pussy.

[Tuthmosis]

(10-14-2011 11:26 AM)Vicious Wrote:  



Can we just agree to link new posters to one of the many "looks" threads on the forum when they create a new one instead of humouring them when they haven't even bothered to use the search function?

Agreed. This topic has been played out so badly, that I wonder if people scroll down the page, never mind use the search function.

[Saladin]

(10-15-2011 04:27 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(10-14-2011 04:21 AM)Anonybrit Wrote:  

The philosophy on this board seems to be that so long as you're not horrendously ugly, you can basically be Archer..

It is.
Think of any party you attended, was the most popular guy there always the tallest one with the ripped abs?

Style - the dude who wrote "The Game" is bald, skinny and 5"6. He was labeled PUA of the year.

Tyler from RSD who I watched in action is maybe 5"10, and looks pretty normal. In fact NONE of the RSD instructors I've met were 6" athletes with model looks and ripped abs. You see them on the street, and you wouldn't give them the second look. However their skills were tremendous.

Quote:

You guys say it doesn't matter if you're muscular, you don't need to hit the gym, you can be skinny/slightly chubby and still pull huge numbers with game.

This is correct. Make sure, however, that you're not thinking of "pulling huge numbers" as "being able to fuck any woman they want". The latter one is simply impossible.

Quote:

You guys say that facially you just have to be at least pleasant to look at, you don't have to be stunning, that game can counteract all of these defects.

Read how the attraction works for females. It is different. You seem to miss some basics.

Exactly, looks don't matter shit.
My asian buddy with completely fucked up teeth and short height is able to overcome that with great style and sharp game.


Oldnemesis, did you take a hotseat or a bootcamp with RSD?

[OGNorCal707]

I agree that this thread is completely played out, but I think it's funny when "game guys" try to act like game trumps everything and is the end all solution.

Yes game is crucial, I stated this in the last "looks vs. game" thread, that game is most important for the guys in 5-7 range in the looks department, which is probably a majority of the guys out there.

Western society and culture is the most superficial it's ever been and while women aren't as superficial as men as far as looks go, (status, game are important too), women now a days all want to date up, and desire the typical (tall, handsome, buff dude). If you're a really good looking guys women will enter your orbit and make themselves available to you, either directly or in more subtle ways. Very little game is needed.

I observe this every weekend.

So in my opinion looks trump game.

[sylo]

We should talk about this more. Maybe we should start a couple more threads based on looks. Im sure Indian troll would love to participate.

[ManAbout]

(10-15-2011 01:07 PM)torontokid Wrote:  

Exactly, looks don't matter shit.
My asian buddy with completely fucked up teeth and short height is able to overcome that with great style and sharp game.

Is he getting with white chicks? I find most Asian guys in Toronto use provider game. Expensive cars, designer clothes and they usually pay for EVERYTHING when they take a girl out. It's very common to see absolutely dorky Asian guys with hot Asian girls. But, the only Asian guys I see with hot white chicks are the totally westernized, athletic/muscular ones.

[Saladin]

(10-15-2011 02:50 PM)ManAbout Wrote:  

(10-15-2011 01:07 PM)torontokid Wrote:  

Exactly, looks don't matter shit.
My asian buddy with completely fucked up teeth and short height is able to overcome that with great style and sharp game.

Is he getting with white chicks? I find most Asian guys in Toronto use provider game. Expensive cars, designer clothes and they usually pay for EVERYTHING when they take a girl out. It's very common to see absolutely dorky Asian guys with hot Asian girls. But, the only Asian guys I see with hot white chicks are the totally westernized, athletic/muscular ones.

Yeah, he is. I don't remember him ever hitting on an Asian girl in my life(and I have seen him do hundreds of approaches). He attracts artsy girls very well too and his style really helps him too(he's got an unique style).

In fact the best display of game I've seen from him was him hitting on a girl that was 7-8 inches taller than him and getting her number.

While I concede looks help, style and game are much more important.
Roissy wrote about this recently too-http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/the-importance-of-male-style/

He's not muscular but he has started working out he doesn't look like a starving guy with his shirt off anymore. He's not anywhere near being buff though.

[Chad Daring]

(10-15-2011 10:39 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(10-14-2011 11:26 AM)Vicious Wrote:  



Can we just agree to link new posters to one of the many "looks" threads on the forum when they create a new one instead of humouring them when they haven't even bothered to use the search function?

Agreed. This topic has been played out so badly, that I wonder if people scroll down the page, never mind use the search function.

In fairness really broad topics like this could use a stickied thread, yes users should search first, but this is the Internet, expecting people (especially new people) to do what they're supposed is wishful.