[Baldwin81]

MGTOW are mental masturbators who understand what to do on an intellectual level, but fail to take any enough action. So, when they see Roosh making moves in the public sphere (Dr. Oz, lecture tour, etc.) they get all holier-than-thou about monetization.

In short: We are an unhappy lot. We know Roosh's message is solid. We know that Roosh is authentic. So we criticize the fact that he's making money.



MGTOW will certainly "go their own way..."

towards bitterness and to wondering what could've been.

All of this is really for someone who remembers reading DC Bachelor back in the dark days of being game-less in the DMV. Thank you Roosh and best wishes for continued success.

[memcpy]

I had to pull out a dictionary for that subreddit. Too much lingo. Until a few weeks ago I didn't even know what "magtow" is. It sounds like some kind of mutant cow.

If you want to be taken seriously, use analogies, statics, logic, and drop the pua terminology. You can't take those words with you if you on a national television show or public debate.

"Neomasculinity" has a nice ring to it, sounds authoritative. You could be on a talk-show and discuss it. "TheRedPill" however you can not. You would have to explain all the pills and magic beans that go with it, making you look like a fool.

[The Beast1]

Dude has to eat. I see nothing wrong with charging for books and a lecture tour.

[LouieG]

Overall I think this sort of internecine squabbling should be avoided… but goddamn, ^^that right there^^ is profoundly retarded.

The same script as Tucker Max?

Tucker Max disassociated himself from I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell and all his other worthwhile writing in an admitted attempt to fit in with the mainstream.

Roosh, in just the past few months, published a proposal to legalize rape and a favorable review of The Culture of Critique.

That’s not just not the same script. It’s the exact opposite script.

As ever, I have no idea what Rollo Tomassi is on about. Like 95 percent of r/TRP, he strikes me as the type of guy who’s spent way too much time reading evo psych in order to quiet his neuroses, and far too little attempting to touch a boob in real life.

P.S. - Let the record show that I got in on the groundfloor of saying Rational Male sucks.

[Ives]

Rollo should know that you don't fire on people on your own side. If he sides with the mob of losers against Roosh, what does he think is going to happen to him later? Haven't people like Rollo learned yet that you never attack your allies? Even though Roosh and Rollo compete to sell books etc, they still are colleagues more or less. So what if Roosh wants to take things a new way? After a while, what more is there to say on getting girls. It's all been said by now and he wants to deal with other issues facing men, that's what neomasculinity is all about.

[General Stalin]

(05-22-2015 02:00 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Dude has to eat. I see nothing wrong with charging for books and a lecture tour.

I saw someone post on here the other day they would coach game to a newbie over the phone for $75 an hour.

Roosh flying to a major city near you and giving an in-person 4 hour seminar with lecture and Q&A in a comfortable venue for $50? Reasonable to say the least.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

I'm very disappointed in Rollo. He has never been an especially entertaining or insightful writer (sorry man), but he has always been one of the most consistent and polite manosphere voices, leading many people to the discovery of red pill. To see him join this angry mob is just sad.

[Bear Hands]

Why are people against money? I hope Roosh and neomasculinity blow up and make an obscene amount of money. The only reason feminism gets the promotion it does is because it makes money for powerful people. Let people see there's gold in neomasculinity and see where the power goes.

[HeyPete]

Roosh, you could always go espn-insider or scout.com and charge a nominal monthly fee. Say, $4 or $5 bucks.

Multiply that by a few thousand and you're looking good.

I wouldn't mind. But I know there are a lot of young bucks on here just getting started and even that small amount could be painful.

[Mr West]

People that questioned god's existence have always existed, but the atheist movement could not have gained any following without figureheads putting the work and representing the movement.

The manosphere, like everything men create, is a competition in and of itself.

There are smart men that rise through the ranks and carve themselves a small tribe of followers (the red pill reddit, and MRAs)

And other men that are willing to go further to carve themselves their own followings are spread of their beliefs (like Neomasculinity and MGTOW).

In the end is all productive competition. Now if Neomasculinity gains steam they will have to go further than Roosh and not only be figureheads of the movement but take it one step further into the active political field or for Roosh to step up his game and defend his movement by attempting to be even more influential.

I have no problem with productive male competition at all.

[Aurini]

(05-22-2015 12:16 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  

The most sickening comment of all is: "I respected Roosh until he pulled this lame bullshit move. He's trying to monetize TRP by changing the name of TRP. I like the guy and I like his work but this entire "Neomasculinity" thing is the most transparently self-serving bullshit ive ever seen.

The only reason I ever trusted TRP in the first place is because I knew no one was profiting from it. By contrast, I am 100% sure that someone IS profiting from "Neomasculinity," so I will NEVER, EVER be able to trust it."

This is part of a particularly stupid memeplex that's been floating around for a while, I think it might be an off-shoot of the "Information wants to be free!" pro-piracy advocates. The idea that profiting off of your work makes you corrupt.

What utter bollocks.

On the contrary, you should be suspicious of anybody who does anything for free or at a loss. People who are working for free demonstrate:

A)Entitlement: everybody has to eat, everybody has to pay their expenses somehow. A "journalist" making $27k in New York City isn't paying her bills through readership, she's paying it through a trust-fund, or by mooching off her parents.
B)Arrogance: if people aren't willing to pay for your stuff, then it probably isn't worth reading. Operating at a loss means that you're more interested in having your voice heard than in considering what your audience would enjoy.

What are the results of operating at a loss?

A) Journalists who push a feminist agenda nobody wants to hear, so-as to control the narrative.
B) I once knew a film maker who quit his first job making commercials because it 'compromised his artistic vision', who then went on to live off welfare while making unwatcheable B-Movies.
C) Internet Aristocrat's meltdown a while back - the guy makes great content but refuses to monetize it. Hey, idiot - if you received ad revenue from your videos, you'd be more inclined to spend the time recording this great stuff I like to watch!
D) Content-creation becomes restricted to those who are born wealthy (and have never lived a day in the real world), or those who can make political connections to push an agenda (and all of the money is in Marxism right now).

These arguments are beyond idiotic, yet I keep hearing them from idealistic Millenial idiots who are going massively into debt on student loans, thinking that money ought to be free. It's the ultimate r-type, rabbit, free-resource, John Lennon, pie-in-the-sky, moron mentality.

[TigerMandingo]

Scorpion, welcome back.

[h3ltrsk3ltr]

Personally I've never seen any strong quality come out of reddit. A few months ago, following ROK media attention from areas like GQ and several huffpo articles, there were a lot of threads here with redditesque titles and redditspeak taking up a lot of space on the board with the very detritus QC mentioned. Since then it seems there have been a lot of bans.

Reddit does not attract the quality of men this forum does. It's a sinkhole for fools and whiners.

[Veloce]

What I see is a sort of republic forming here.

The one thing that the entire manosphere has in common, is a sense of disillusionment or dissatisfaction with the status quo.

As men, our instinct is to dig our heels in the sand and identify the problem and possible solutions. Instead of a pack of women having to generate a consensus before moving forward, you have individualistic men stepping forward in various directions. Those directions may not be "correct" but that's how progress happens. Mistakes will be made.

I don't say this to blow smoke up Roosh's ass, the guy doesn't need it, but his post on neomasculinity most closely mirrors my own worldview and how I perceive things. With the fairly vast resources in the manosphere, there is no need to play favorites. Men will simply gravitate towards the message that resonates with them the most.

However, over time, there will be a funnel effect. The ideology that refines itself, that pushes the inexorable dogma of Truth, is the ideology that will win. Like a republic, it won't do to have a giant mob creating a cacophony of nebulous opinions and half-baked truths. That's too democratic. A republic needs statesmen with clear minds and unwavering voices, and hopefully that's where the manosphere is headed.

[Apollo]

(05-22-2015 01:32 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

The Red Pill started out pretty decent, but has fallen off greatly in quality the more it has grown. At this point it's mostly a collection of keyboard alphas and wannabes, with a smattering of quality posters and a depressingly large number of guys whose chief hobby seems to be explaining to other men how alpha they are on the internet. I laugh my ass off every time I read a post there by some total nerd that considers himself an "alpha red pill guy" because he approached a girl and has been lifting for two weeks. Roosh is correct in that "Red Pill" has become just another identity label (like MGTOW and MRA) for men online, and the Red Pill's identity has unfortunately become corrupted by the toxic cesspool that is Reddit in general. This is why it's full of so many wannabes, losers, women, homosexuals and embittered nerds. Even the quality stuff on there is pretty much just a rehashing of thought that has been floating around the manosphere for years. The original ideas presented there are basically non-existent, save for the embarrassing screeds penned by "Illimitable Man", one of TRP's most lauded posters, who is quite plainly recognizable as an embittered omega with severe resentment towards women stemming from personal rejection. He's probably quite typical of TRP's readership demographic in that regard, which explains his popularity and the fact that he hasn't been laughed off the site for being an obvious keyboard jockey like he would be if he posted here. Overall, I would like to see a few of TRP's better posters come to the RVF. The rest can go straight into the trash with the rest of Reddit.

Oh, and by the way...

Welcome back, Scorpion.

Your presence has been missed, no homo.

I used to read TRP avidly when it was small (pk_atheist was the mod), but with over 100K members, the signal to noise ratio is atrocious. A lot of the posters that I remember there haven't been active in years. Legitimately useful articles in relation to running game and philosophy will now never be upvoted over some male victimization article or an "OMG..THIS STUFF TOTALLY WORKS GUISE!" thread.

The whole money grab angle is complete bullshit. Nearly every single endorsed poster has their own blog or website where they solicit ads/Amazon-affiliate links/pander for donations/sell their own books/etc. to their end users. Nothing but a bunch of butt-hurt jealousy in that argument.

[Teedub]

Massively disappointing from Rollo Tomassi. Very, very surprised at that turn of events.

I agree with this QC:

(05-22-2015 12:23 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

These people are sniveling chickenshits and losers. Their opinions matter not one iota.

They're all about resentment, jealousy, and hating. Why? Because they've sat on their fat, whiny asses for years without ever having worked hard to do something.

I apologise for the over-simplification, but this seems apt:



Fuck those cunts.

[Tuthmosis]

This is the natural progression of trends I've been seeing unfold for a while:

1. The Tell-Tale Abuse of Jargon
The overuse of jargon in any kind of community is usually a bad sign. I've always looked at the term "red pill" with suspicion since it was lifted from a popular movie and automatically imparted a corny and derivative sound to everything. The same went with "manosphere," which always came across as kind of science-fictiony to me. I accepted (and periodically used) these terms as imperfect place-holders for the time being. But it quickly became apparent that they were becoming, at least for some, virtual "teams" for guys who have an overpowering need to belong to a group. You see it with newbies on the forum, with questions like "is it red pill to XYZ?" or posting some egregiously contrarian video or article and automatically calling it "red pill," just because it disagrees with everything. Like all jargon, these terms became a way to strip meaning from real conversation and caricature people with certain views.

2. Invasion by Alienated, Awkward Men with Weak Loyalties
There's always been camps in this world. One group--of which I consider myself part--are men just sitting around shooting the shit about life and women like men have always done. You work out ideas and share tips without stakes or worries that you'll "get in trouble." In the absence of a barbershop or mechanic's shop--and in the age of the internet--dudes turn to the computer for a few moments a day. Then, they go about their day. We talk shit about women, but simultaneously understand that women will be women, and can appreciate when we see a good thing. It's like that saying--repeated around the forum--that you can't get mad at a shark for biting you. It's just doing what it does.

Then there's a group of guys--a growing group, I'd say--who are unsuccessful with women, want to be successful with women, and have just enough knowledge to know that the mainstream isn't going to offer anything of value to them. But they also look at men like us with disdain. We're the lesser of the evils, and they selfishly join our ranks to try to extract some value, before unceremoniously taking off. They're basically the Skyler Whites of the internet: soft loyalties--technically on your side, but quick to turn on you, because they never fully believed in what you're doing or talking about, and always held you in sort of low regard. They fundamentally resent all women, hate men who are successful with them, and hate the current state of affairs. They're basically alone, and don't have the skills or desire to collaborate with others.

Sadly, I've seen more and more guys (usually marginal) pass through the corridors of the various communities that comprise this corner of the web. This red pill reddit appears to have become saturated with this type of character.

3. Sleazy Used-Car Salesmanship Vibe from Some Guys
There's an unpleasant streak of sleazy salesmanship in this world that's rubbed a lot of us the wrong way for a while. I don't say this out of any kind of loyalty or dick-riding, but I've always thought Roosh has done things tastefully. Never pushed his products hard, produced tons of content for free before ever selling anything, and so on. He's done such a good job, in fact, that when he barely makes a move to monetize 10 years of work, people lose their shit.

Meanwhile, there are certain guys who are constantly angling to extract a buck out of what we do. I've had relatively low-rep members twice try to swoop in and internet-squat on ideas that I put out on the forum--and that's just the guys who have been willing to confess it, and are actually decent contributors around here. There's certainly much worse. I've been contacted by PM by other guys about publishing parts of my posts on the forum in their e-books--of course without an offer of remuneration or even writer credit. I've had virtually no-rep guys ask me to "proofread" their e-book manuscript, and write a positive review of it when I'm done, all in exchange for a free copy of the finished product.

Maybe this is natural, in a world where the ideas of "location independent" and passive income are the dream, but that necessarily has created mutations on a old type of character. The "PUA hustler" has been around for years, but I've seen him go through changes. This new version isn't just constantly selling, he'll dog-pile on a perceived competitor if he sees a chance to extract a few more sales out of it. I don't have any personal beef with Rollo Tomasi (I barely know the guy), but I've never seen someone who puts a link to one of his posts or products in more of his comments on ROK, or tweets that he makes to other guys--with the loosest and remotest relevance to the subject at hand. Self-promotion is one thing, but cannibalism like this, after years of using someone's platform for free advertising, is really distasteful.

Overall, I think these trends are normal, if unpleasant. They redraw lines that were blurring that maybe shouldn't be blurred. I, for one, would rather not associate with guys who have weird agendas, selfishly extract from a community without giving much in return, or who harbor odd resentments or hangups. I'm all for growth, but I think seeing this too much as a "movement"--as one member put it once--might end up being more costly than just seeing it as guys being guys, which is really what it maybe ought to be.

[MrLemon]

Reddit hired Ellen Pao, the biggest idiot loser batshit crazy Feminist on the planet earth, to be their CEO.

Nothing more to be said.

[KorbenDallas]

I haven't been a hug follower of Rollo, but I've read some of his essay's and they're pretty good. Deep, but still easily understandable.

Annoying that he's being so weird in this instance. It's perfectly normal for an intellectual like Roosh to have a speaking tour. He's not forcing anyone to go. Roosh's fleshing out of Neomasculinity is impressive. I disagree that Roosh is shallow.

Why do people feel the need to shoot at their friends? I just don't get it.

By the way, really good post by Tuthmosis. The only thing I would disagree with is that this should ONLY be a sort of locker room for guys. I definitely like that this forum serves that purpose, and I probably lurk more than I contribute, but there ARE some things I want changed.

1.) I want Family Law Reform. I plan on having a family, and i want to be able to put a ring on the mother of my children without giving up authority over my family and finances. Normal guys dream about conquering the world. But normal girls dream about marriage, and motherhood, and having a husband. If a girl really loves you she's not going to care if you're technically married or not as long as she's with you, BUT it is a status thing to women and they do want that public commitment and its wrong to twist the law in such away as to make it so toxic to the regular traditional minded man that he would rather not do it officially.

2.) I want there to be a repeal of child support payments for unmarried fathers. Unless it's rape, that's on the chick. Birth control is legal and cheap and even abortions are legal.



Other than those couple things, then the culture will take care of itself. I don't care if there are feminists in the world, I sort of think there always will be, there insane ideas shouldn't be implemented though. And if they're ideas aren't implemented, they will go back to being the fringe group they usually are that mothers warn there daughters about.

Don't be a spinster or you'll end up like your feminist Aunt Jane!

[AntiTrace]

When dealing with haters, it is best to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear.

[Private Man]

This has happened before in the Manosphere.

It's happening again.

Roosh has a good point.
Rollo has a a good point.
The Red Pill subreddit has a good point.
All the comments here have good points.

In the great scheme of masculine things, this minor conflict means little.

[Dr. Howard]

(05-22-2015 03:18 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

This is the natural progression of trends I've been seeing unfold for a while:

1. The Tell-Tale Abuse of Jargon
The overuse of jargon in any kind of community is usually a bad sign. I've always looked at the term "red pill" with suspicion since it was lifted from a popular movie
...

Meanwhile, there are certain guys who are constantly angling to extract a buck out of what we do. I've had relatively low-rep members twice try to internet squat on ideas that I put out on the forum--and that's just the guys who have been willing to confess it, and are actually decent contributors around here. There's certainly much worse. I've been contacted by PM ...


Overall, I think these trends are normal, if unpleasant. They also redraw lines that were blurring that maybe shouldn't be blurred. I, for one, would rather not associate with guys who have weird agendas, selfishly extract from a community without giving much in return, or who harbor weird resentments or hangups. I'm all for growth, but I think seeing this too much as a "movement"--as one member put it once--might end up being more costly than just seeing it as guys being guys, which is really what it maybe ought to be.

I agree with Tuth and will pull out the old Derek Sivers model. The 'red pill' and associated names as now crossed the tipping point and has some sort of 'cool' factor to be associated with it. Like how fedoras were at one point 'cool' but then ruined by the basemented masses.

Roosh came 'after' some guys like Rollo and now that he's surpassing them they are getting pissed because he isn't being 'who he is supposed to be' in their eyes. They are trying to keep Roosh in his 'place' in their perceived red pill who's who.

I've had this happen a few times in my life, people accept you as long as you stay beneath them or their friends. Once your success threatens their position they turn on you. Such is life and "advanced level haters"

[AnonymousBosch]

(05-22-2015 12:23 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

O, you haters and deniers, choke on your rage! Great things will come, but not through you!

Quintus is wandering into High Poetic Style. I know what that means: there's a war coming.

Roosh Wrote:

So either indirect or directly, everyone who regularly posts on that site is increasing the money that feminists make, improving the popularity of their platform to better bring SJW and far left thought to the masses, and improving the financial support that Silicon Valley feminists receive.

The fetishisation of 'The Matrix' by The Alpha Edgelords of the Red Pill subreddit is even funnier than that if you consider the trajectory of one of the writers of the movie.

Quote:

Mouse: To deny our own impulses is to deny the very thing that makes us human.

What was his impulse?

Quote:

Morpheus: Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

What was the path he chose to walk?

Quote:

Neo: I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid... you're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone, and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you. A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.

What 'rules' and 'boundaries' was he speaking of? Whom did he want removed from the world?

Quote:

Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.

What 'prison' was keeping his mind bound?

Quote:

Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.

What was the knowledge he received that meant he could never return to his life of blissful ignorance?





These Edgelord Alphas base their masculinity on a movie where the entire movie is just a metaphor for Larry / Lana's longing for a sex change.

Rewatch it again, and pretend it's 'Fight Club': Trinity doesn't exist, and is just an Empowered Fantasy figure of who Neo longs to be. No wonder in the sequels all the Matrix residents gradually become overtaken by Agent Smith: they all become Cis White Male Oppressors wearing the same face.

The Red Pill subreddit: inspired by a Tranny, approved by Feminists, clearly being infiltrated and subverted by Social Justice Warriors for a few months now, yet everyone is too hardcore to notice.

It's basically this:

[KorbenDallas]

Bosch, Is that true?

I actually liked the Matrix. I thought it was a pretty cool movie.

Is it really about becoming a tranny?

[Kristoph]

I spent some time lurking the Red Pill subreddit and honestly it's an embarrassment. Anyone who isn't lying out of their arse is defending their right to go through 'The Anger Stage' and treat all women with open hostility and bitterness. It's pathetic.