[Courage Reborn]

TL;DR
It's basically a shit test.


Don't psych yourself out. You probably did a better job than you think attracting & connecting during your opening phase.

Due of always-on, always connected techology, the perceived mate value of male suitors has gone down. In the past, a new suitor on her scene held a certain intrigue & unavailability, which can be manufactured through game, but is ultimately ineffective due to so many other guys willing to give her attention when she wants it, and on her terms.

Along comes a guy with good game. Someone like a reader of this forum. You make a great first impression, she's interested, you make future plans, and exchange contact information. In the moment, she's looking forward to it. It makes sense for her.

But fast forward to a later date, and you leave a voice message or send a follow up text. You're keen to meet, but she's no longer in state. It's not that she doesn't remember you. She does. But she's not in the mood now. To meet up, she has to be emotionally prepared. Now here's an invitation to meet up with an attractive guy, with good game, who stands a good chance of getting into her pants now? No, that would way to easy she thinks. Plus she's not in the mood for sex.

She also figures her notch count certainly doesn't need to be any higher. It's not like she's some slut. Not like those other girls that no doubt gave it up to you easily. No, better to show you she's different. Better to hold out. Better to just let you text her some more. If he really wants it, he'll keep trying. Besides, each funny text she got from you have been a virtual bubble of just-as-fun. And she doesn't even need to get dressed, put on makeup, or be interesting.

In an effort to salvage your wasted night, you run your funniest, best text game, but it's too late. She's already in her PJ's. You finally send "no worries. some other time", and concede defeat. The drip feed of text stimulation provided by you stops. "That was fun" she thinks. Now bored, she checks her instagram comments, and fields texts from a half dozen other potential suitors, friends & orbiters while settling in with netflix for the night.

She has a slight headache from tilting her head just so for the last 15 minutes to get just the right amount of cleavage for a couch selfie with her dog. Better cancel plans with another one of her suitors for tomorrow night now. His 3rd flake of the week, he gets mad over text, and tells her how selfish & inconsiderate she is. Disqualified. She screenshots the butthurt text to a few friends & #1 white knight for validation. "what a jerk" Obv he just wanted to get in your pants. That's true, she thinks. What does he think this is, a sprint to the finish line? I'm worth so much more. A marathon at least! If he really cared, he would be more patient. Like that cool guy from earlier. Persistent, but funny! Yeah, he's still in the running...

You're still in the running.

[OGNorCal707]

(04-06-2015 02:19 PM)Courage Reborn Wrote:  

TL;DR
It's basically a shit test.


Don't psych yourself out. You probably did a better job than you think attracting & connecting during your opening phase.

Due of always-on, always connected techology, the perceived mate value of male suitors has gone down. In the past, a new suitor on her scene held a certain intrigue & unavailability, which can be manufactured through game, but is ultimately ineffective due to so many other guys willing to give her attention when she wants it, and on her terms.

Along comes a guy with good game. Someone like a reader of this forum. You make a great first impression, she's interested, you make future plans, and exchange contact information. In the moment, she's looking forward to it. It makes sense for her.

But fast forward to a later date, and you leave a voice message or send a follow up text. You're keen to meet, but she's no longer in state. It's not that she doesn't remember you. She does. But she's not in the mood now. To meet up, she has to be emotionally prepared. Now here's an invitation to meet up with an attractive guy, with good game, who stands a good chance of getting into her pants now? No, that would way to easy she thinks. Plus she's not in the mood for sex.

She also figures her notch count certainly doesn't need to be any higher. It's not like she's some slut. Not like those other girls that no doubt gave it up to you easily. No, better to show you she's different. Better to hold out. Better to just let you text her some more. If he really wants it, he'll keep trying. Besides, each funny text she got from you have been a virtual bubble of just-as-fun. And she doesn't even need to get dressed, put on makeup, or be interesting.

In an effort to salvage your wasted night, you run your funniest, best text game, but it's too late. She's already in her PJ's. You finally send "no worries. some other time", and concede defeat. The drip feed of text stimulation provided by you stops. "That was fun" she thinks. Now bored, she checks her instagram comments, and fields texts from a half dozen other potential suitors, friends & orbiters while settling in with netflix for the night.

She has a slight headache from tilting her head just so for the last 15 minutes to get just the right amount of cleavage for a couch selfie with her dog. Better cancel plans with another one of her suitors for tomorrow night now. His 3rd flake of the week, he gets mad over text, and tells her how selfish & inconsiderate she is. Disqualified. She screenshots the butthurt text to a few friends & #1 white knight for validation. "what a jerk" Obv he just wanted to get in your pants. That's true, she thinks. What does he think this is, a sprint to the finish line? I'm worth so much more. A marathon at least! If he really cared, he would be more patient. Like that cool guy from earlier. Persistent, but funny! Yeah, he's still in the running...

You're still in the running.

[Brosemite]

Good read.

Persistence is important but she has to show interest during the "chase". If she doesn't answer my last 2 texts, she is immediately deleted. I was talking to a girl on tinder for a month and was persistent. I was cool when she flaked, cool when she said no... But she keep coming back for more. When we went out yesterday for the first time, she said she had just read our entire text convo and showed me some stuff. She laughed when she showed me when she said "no" to me on one occasion and I was cool with that but I saw the "I wanna be chased side". After I banged her in my car and came on her back, I laughed the whole way home.

[Easy_C]

She's flaking because she's not that impressed.

How often do you think girls flake on Leonardo DiCaprio? I'd bet money that the answer is never.

[SlickyBoy]

^bingo. I don't put a lot of stock in long game of any kind nowadays, at least not in the smartphone afflicted parts of the world. Its like selling used cars - if you can't spot deliver a sale right then and there, just move on to the next prospect. Maybe the first one will come back, maybe not.

[kaotic]

(04-06-2015 04:06 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

She's flaking because she's not that impressed.

How often do you think girls flake on Leonardo DiCaprio? I'd bet money that the answer is never.

That's fame game man, that's comparing orange's to apples.

Not all of us can be Leo...



Also, how much patience does one have ? When would you be considered an orbiter who'll talk to her but she flakes alot or says she's "busy"

With the right game and right girl, she'd MAKE time to hangout.

But I get it, girls can be busy or more busy than we are.

Question is....how long do you stay persistent and fun until you eject from her flaking/not hanging out ?

[Vincent Chase]

That's a great read. In those situations however I'm not sure how often you truly are still in the running in the modern age.

She can use social media as needed for validation as put here and can go on online dating or walk down to the shops and give out her digits out 5 times. Usually she already has a few other guys at least on her phone as is.

Within a few days she forgets all about you if that. It's not even necessarily that you did anything wrong, although many cases the attraction just wasn't there. She may not have been in the mood for a million other reasons.

Unfortunately the newer generation of women are so fickle these days that I find it hard to believe if a girl after 1 date flaked on me there is still any good chance with her - maybe about 10%.

In her head at that moment she doesn't need you. She has a pure abundance mentality that she has lots of other guys lining up for her, the question is do you? With an abundance mentality you will care little. It is absolutely essential in modern game.

[BlurredSevens]

Courage Reborn - great thread man! Salient points and I enjoy your stream of consciousness writing style. Keep it coming.

(04-06-2015 04:06 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

How often do you think girls flake on Leonardo DiCaprio?

This is such a limiting mindset.

As I've written in another thread....Leo is 100% getting flaked on.

How do I know?

Because right now, I have girls blowing up my phone that want me to fuck them.

Do you know what a turn off that is? To have girls throwing themselves at you? Sure in theory it sounds great, but the minute a girl makes it too easy for me, I lose interest. So instead I am going after the girls that present a bigger challenge.

It is human nature to want what you can't have. Leo is no different. He likes a challenge, just like every other masculine male on the planet. And the smart girls know how to make themselves a challenge.

Alpha males are Predators. They like to HUNT. Being hand fed is a preference of the weak.

Leo is likely bored of basic bitches throwing their pussy at him for the past 25 years, and unless he's a freak, he's probably going after the girls that don't give it up easily. The girls that aren't 100% sold on him. The girls that offer him a challenge. The girls that will eventually flake on him.

I'm sure he takes his fair share of easy pussy, but I have a hard time believing that he's a mindless drone fucking every bad bitch that floats into his orbit. What kind of a life is that?

[Akula]

(04-06-2015 04:06 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

She's flaking because she's not that impressed.

How often do you think girls flake on Leonardo DiCaprio? I'd bet money that the answer is never.

so we are all comparing ourselves to DiCaprio on this forum now? Even he gets flaked on too I think.

Women are overly emotional train wrecks half the time even the so-called "good" ones so I think OP is spot on here.

Also, women flake for a lot more reasons that just because "they are not impressed." I've been flaked on before bc she was sick or had other plans or whatever and then banged a few weeks later. I don't see how a few more re-start/re-opener texts or even a phone call are so much extra work that you can't turn things around - not all the time but sometimes.

[General Mayhem]

Initially I wanted to discount this idea but then I thought threw some of my past interactions and remembered one case where this actually happened. However that is just one out of many instances. Most of the time girls are either quick to bite or they just don't.

[Cad and Bounder]

There are two questions that you need to ask before thinking about this thread.

1. How many girls have I actually laid after she flaked on the first date?

2. When a girl flaked and then you, at least, saw her again, how was her next contact?

In my case it's 1. Very few. 2. A genuine flake (her reason was valid) will almost immediately arrange another date.

If she is flaking as a shit test then a lot of guys on here will be able to report many lays after flakes. My gut feel is that this is not the case. When a girl flakes it's usually because she is just being a cunt.

[jariel]

I've read this post a couple of times just to ensure that I'm not missing something, but I'm definitely not agreeing with the premise.

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

A girl meets a guy she purports to like, he invites her out, she accepts, then she cancels as a shit test to weed him out from other suitors. She still likes him, she just wants to see if he's that dude?

I'm conscious of the fact that chicks sometimes sabotage their relationships, but in the moment of doing that, they're usually unaware that that is what they are doing.

Flaking is a clear sign of disrespect, and it's done on a completely conscious level.

Let's not romanticize it into something like a "shit test" that ultimately you can pass by being persistent.

Some of the messages within the game community are ass backwards.

It's not your job to work for her, it's her job to work for you.

If you have an interview for a job that you really want, chances are, you're going to do everything you possibly could to give yourself the best shot at getting that job.

You're the job, and she's the person being interviewed.

Flaking is bad for your business, and you shouldn't want anything to do with anything that is bad for your business.

I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just say that more often than not, if a girl isn't going to see through the plans she's made with you, then she decided at some point, for whatever reason, that she didn't want to.

There are just too many women in the world out here for us to be giving multiple chances to someone who's proven nothing other than that they don't respect you, which is evidenced by the fact that they took the time to make plans that they never intended on going through with -- if something legit happened and she's still down, that's called rescheduling, not flaking.

[Repo]

@ jariel

I also read it a few times, and waited for a few more comments in case I was missing something or simply misunderstanding the purpose of the thread (who knows, maybe I still am).

My first thought was now that I've read this, do I plan on changing my behaviour when a girl flakes? No, I will probably next her just as quick. I'm not saying that I'm someone who nexts on the first flake, but on the second I probably will.

Then I thought maybe OP is referring to the flake as a shit test because when it happens, there is something you can do to disqualify yourself immediately (get angry, worked up, etc), but even the best reaction you can have when a girl flakes doesn't seem to raise your value, it simply keeps you in the running. Which judging by the fact that she flaked, you are running but are likely not in the top 3.

Then I reflected on girls who have flaked on me previously who I have later banged. My sample size is not very large so my opinion doesn't hold much weight, but from my sample size I genuinely feel that most of them were not flakes because she wasn't feeling me, but rather something important actually did come up. I think I've only had one bang where when a girl flaked on me, I felt her excuse was bullshit, but I persisted and banged later anyway.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts, I know most of the board seems to have alot more experience than me so tear me apart if I'm wrong.

[BlurredSevens]

(04-06-2015 06:12 PM)jariel Wrote:  

I'm definitely not agreeing with the premise.

Flaking is a clear sign of disrespect, and it's done on a completely conscious level.

Let's not romanticize it into something like a "shit test" that ultimately you can pass by being persistent.

Some of the messages within the game community are ass backwards.

It's not your job to work for her, it's her job to work for you.

There are just too many women in the world out here for us to be giving multiple chances to someone who's proven nothing other than that they don't respect you,

As a rational and logical male, I agree with you.

However, what you wrote does not apply to women. Women are irrational, impulsive, hormonal, and illogical.

Women do not operate on the same spectrum as men. They are not bound by honor and respect like men. Their word carries no weight.

Women are EMOTIONAL creatures. And they need to be handled as such.

That's why I think CourageReborn is spot on here. What he wrote is like an inside look into the emotional, unstable female brain.

He's not romanticizing flaking, nor rationalizing it, he's simply mapping out the thought process of our female counterparts to help make sense of how they operate.

I think that if guys want to improve with women, they need to attempt to understand how women work. The first step is the realization that they are nothing like us.

It's not a bad thing, but it can come as a shock and surprise, especially to a guy if he is first starting out in the game.

[Valhalla]

I think a large percentage of flaking from interested girls(maybe and yes girls) just comes down to pure laziness and men's availability to women. These are market forces than no collective of men can change.

It's just so much easier to sit home order some take out, masturbate, then watching Netflix as opposed to showering, doing your hair, putting on making up, shaving your hairy pussy, etc. the only thing you had(novelty) is gone after the first date. Besides, she knows you'll always be around.

If her guy neighbor next door was twice as less attractive as you she'd probably fuck him more just because he's there

[jariel]

(04-06-2015 07:09 PM)BlurredSevens Wrote:  

As a rational and logical male, I agree with you.

However, what you wrote does not apply to women. Women are irrational, impulsive, hormonal, and illogical.

I know exactly what women are, better than most, the difference is, I don't give a damn.

I don't play the game by their rules.

A lot of that shit that happens that guys talk about doesn't happen to me, simply because I don't allow it.

When girls are down, they are down. When they are wishy-washy, half-in, half-out, then I cancel.

One, I don't have time for it. Time is precious.

Two, I have options. Life is all about options.

It's only men who don't have options who have to put up with shit.

Every girl is not out here shit testing every guy because it's not in her best interest to do so.

We're all conscious that certain behavior is a turn-off.

When you allow women to engage in negative behavior, e.g. flaking, but are still willing to treat them to a night on the town, your dick, whatever, what are you really saying?

She can do whatever she wants and still ultimately get her way.

If the girl fucks up and is willing to work her way back into the mix, that's different, but I'm not going to pursue something that's going out of its way to push me away.

One mistake that is being made by men of these parts is absolving women of responsibility by rationalizing their behavior and saying, "they're women, they think differently from us", sure they do, but that's not an excuse for you to put up with their shit.

At the end of the day, we are all adults. I expect grown women to act like adults, if they can't do that, then I'm not an option for them; their loss, I'll keep it moving, I go out all the time, there's just TOO many bitches out here for me to feel otherwise.

[Ensam]

(04-06-2015 07:27 PM)jariel Wrote:  

If the girl fucks up and is willing to work her way back into the mix, that's different, but I'm not going to pursue something that's going out of its way to push me away.

This is exactly the right attitude to take. Calmly let her know she fucked up - e.g. if she tries to reschedule say, "I already made time for you" - and then get on with your life. I've had chicks I was pursuing do a 180 and start pursuing me after doing that.

[Sonoma]

I've banged a lot of girls in the small social scene at my school, and I'll say that there's plenty of girls that flake because they're socially incompetent, not necessarily because they're not interested.

Perhaps they did have other plans.
Perhaps they chickened out.
Perhaps they wanted to see if I was willing to chase.

I've probably hooked up with 50% of girls that have flaked on me prior, you just have to put them on the back burner and wait and find more

[CactusCat589]

Courage Reborn is right. You're still in the running in the sense that you can eventually meet up and have sex. The question jariel is raising is whether you should consciously decide to stay in the running after being disrespected.

[iknowexactly]

Really good writing OP, it really captures the dreamy world of a spoiled girl who has no way of knowing what it feels as The Wall nears and impacts her. I'm envious.

But I disagree to a large degree one should assume that a girl has any serious interest in you if she is repeatedly unavailable.

One of the most important quotes, I believe from Janka pre-marriage:
"Difficult women remain difficult."

I've always seen it to be true, pretty much 100%.
Women with even passable game will be cooperative at first, then ramp up demands later.

It's different in each culture, I've dealt with this in the Philippines: she'll be cleaning up my apartment then start talking about her sacred goal of buying her father a house ( true story) . It's a roundabout way of asking for money while retaining deniability. "I'm not like that!"
However when you see through it and say "I'm not buying your father a house," all of a sudden she doesn't like you.

=====
Also, there's the problem here of what flaking is, it's pretty much undefined.

If a girl has shown herself to be reliable and cancels at the last minute ONCE, that's totally different than one who does it for a first meeting.

Here's a hierarchy with speculations on recoverability.

1) No Show- Death penalty unless total verification of car accident etc. , if it's the first meeting 99.999% you will never have a cooperative girl here.

2) Late cancellation- 85% bullshit ( she just didn't feeeeeel like it, which won't change) 14% her life is just too complicated and although she THINKS she has the intention to meet you, whenever she must allocate time something intrudes.

3) Renegotiation attempts: These can be tricky-- if she tries to change venue, time, or asks questions about your intent after initially agreeing it can be tempting to accommodate her. But it usually means she is disagreeable and will be a pain. Sometimes it is a genuine good idea to do something more intimate and fun, hiking rather than a mall meeting etc. If it exposes her MORE to sex than the initial plan then maybe it's a positive.

4) Non-answers to texts etc. In the Phils being broke is real, but my finding is that CATEGORICAL assertions of inability to contact you are 100% bs.
"I don't have a phone" usually means it is a scammer that probably isn't even the person in the picture.

In the West, any girl who DOES actually promptly answer your texts is so rare that she should be submitted to the Smithsonian as a possible new species, and married immediately no matter how ugly she is.

[CH-Toronto]

Got flaked on last night from a Tinder girl. Plans seemed to have been set and in the end... nothing. I want to text her and say, "Ummm what happened?" but I know that's what she wants and if I do that - she 'wins'. Fucking Christ.

(04-06-2015 02:19 PM)Courage Reborn Wrote:  

She has a slight headache from tilting her head just so for the last 15 minutes to get just the right amount of cleavage for a couch selfie

This was literally every pic of her. For my area - she was the hottest girl off Tinder I had seen. I think there should be a "post pics of girls who flaked on you thread" to help serve as a warning to other members.

[B-Nut]

yea but flaking means their emotionally not into you.

At that point your dead.

Agree with others, women do not shit test men by flaking. Absolute crock pua doctrine crap.

Chasing women who flake on you ? That's thristy hamstering the likes of a dumb slut

All u will be doing is feeding the monster, the validation and destroying mankind.

Women might be emotional, but those emotions when it comes to who they like, and how much interest they convey towards who they like.......is just like men.

If a man likes a women, he displays interest. Same with women.

The sample size of thirsty men who try to use some pua great text line to re-engage with a flake and regenerate attraction is about a billion right now. How many successes ? probably count on one hand

[Brodiaga]

Remember the last few girls you flaked on. Why?

I flaked when I had better options. When I didn't have better options, the girls were not attractive enough to waste my time and money on dates.

I don't think girls' reasons for flaking are very different. Maybe replace the word attractiveness with SMV (I hate that term btw).

If the same girl lived in a poor village and her other options for dating were alcoholics or meth addicts, would she still flake?

Unfortunately it comes down to the boring formula of supply and demand.

[BlurredSevens]

(04-06-2015 07:27 PM)jariel Wrote:  

I know exactly what women are, better than most, the difference is, I don't give a damn.

I don't play the game by their rules.

A lot of that shit that happens that guys talk about doesn't happen to me, simply because I don't allow it.

When girls are down, they are down. When they are wishy-washy, half-in, half-out, then I cancel.

For sure man, but you are in the top 1%. Most guys are not there.

I think that just telling guys to take a hardline approach with women isn't going to help them evolve as players. Likely it will breed resentment toward women. You can see that in the forum sometimes - guys getting angry at girls rather than laughing it off or learning from it.

When a girl flakes on me, I take it as a chance to self-reflect and learn from my mistakes.

Eventually, teaching a hardline approach is good, and telling guys they should stand behind their values is beneficial, but only when a player has advanced.

The OP's post was to help guys understand the mentality of women, so they can get to that higher level.

(04-06-2015 08:22 PM)Sonoma Wrote:  

Perhaps they chickened out.

This is actually quite accurate.

More than one girl has told me that she was too nervous to meet up with me. Other times their actions suggest this is what happened.

It's a sign that I wasn't calibrated. Perhaps I was too sexual, I posed my value too high, or she otherwise got scared off.

---

Flaking is a learning experience. The more you know about women, the more you'll learn from the experience.

[philosophical_recovery]

(04-06-2015 08:39 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

In the West, any girl who DOES actually promptly answer your texts is so rare that she should be submitted to the Smithsonian as a possible new species, and married immediately no matter how ugly she is.

Fairly true. The high interest girls I've come about in the last year weren't very good at responding to texts, even though they would go 30mins-2hrs on a bus to see me and get penetrated.

The only girl that responds quickly to texts was a virgin, and wanted my D for 2 years before I broke down and gave it to her (unknowing she was a virgin).

Except for that, I'm trying to think of the prompt responders. Almost every girl responded promptly 10 years ago to texts, to the point that I got really annoyed at texting conversations. Now, they do the 10min-30min marination or longer depending on *something*. Sometimes, I think they're genuinely busy. Other times, they're just playing their girly games. The more games, the less I want them, on a sliding scale. At a certain point it becomes a hatefuck, and I don't consider them anything other than ball drainers.