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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:30 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:18 PM)mikado Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:12 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2015 08:28 AM)mikado Wrote:  

I think moderates muslims should effectively stand up and display their support and rallying with France and the victims.

No it needs to be more extreme than that. Would it have been sufficient for the US if Japanese civilians displayed support and sympathy for the victims at Pearl Harbor? Obviously not. Would it have been sufficient if they revolted and overthrew their government? Yes.

To this extent, if Muslims genuinely do not support the expansionary desires of their extremists, it is their responsibility to attack the extremists themselves. Not "don't blame us", but "these people are tarnishing our name, let's smash them".

Quote: (01-07-2015 09:44 AM)mikado Wrote:  

My question is:
how would you conduct that war?

You first identify the enemy. In WW2, it was "militant Japan". In this case it is "militant Islam". Then the goal is to "demoralize their desire to fight", which can only be assured by "total defeat" (being smashed).

It was only through suffering the pain of fighting and being totally defeated, and having their society forcefully reorganised, that the Japanese didn't simply rebuild and resume the conflict.

If I was commander-in-chief, the first question I would answer would be: "who is supporting who". Who is providing the ideological fuel? Who is providing the resources? I suspect it would trace back to the states of Iran and Saudi Arabia, as well as many other minor institutions in North Africa, and the Near and Middle East.

Then I would deliver an simultaneous ultimatum to those institutions as a group:
"You are to cease advocating attacks against the West;
You are to cease advocating the use of violence to further the power of your religion;
You are to cease providing support to other groups who support or engage in such violence;
You are to publicly preach your support for these measures, including in your sermons in your places of worship;
You are to publicly renounce using violence to solve the Israel-Palestine question;
You are to publicly preach your acceptance of criticism of your religion.
If you are not complying with these measures within 90 days, you will be attacked."

If they didn't comply (which I expect they wouldn't), I'd invade accordingly, totally defeat them, dismantle all of the institutions that were fueling militancy, rewrite their constitutions at gun-point Japan-style, and put their leaders through the military tribunals.

Quote: (01-07-2015 09:23 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

Here are some scary statistics and sources:
Yep, the sooner the West wises up, the less bloodshed their children are going to have to go through. Does anyone actually think this all just goes away by itself?

Quote: (01-07-2015 09:07 AM)UroboricForms Wrote:  

This is so fucked up. As much as I think free speech is important its exactly this kind of "I'll say/do what I want" attitude that is the problem. Evidence? It just got 12 people filled with bullets. Like someone said, what do you expect when you poke fun at the most aggressive culture in the world right now?

That sentiment is disgraceful.




The problem is that most of the Muslims in the West have zero relations with terrorists in the Middle East. Heck, they sometimes have to go 3-4 generations up their genealogic tree to find relatives from there.

What do you expect them to do, outside condemning these attacks? It's not like they have any influence over what happens in the Middle East.

In the case of Pearl Harbor, they were in their country, they could potentially have went against their government and overthrown it.

In France, they can't do shit in Iraq, Syria etc etc.

Vigilante groups of so-called moderate muslims who find radicals in the community, beat the shit out of them, and turn them into police or deal with them on their own would be a good start.

But I doubt that will ever happen, because many are partly sympathetic even if they aren't willing to go as far as their radical brothers.

Imagine for a second that the situation was reversed. There's thousands of Anders Breiviks in the Muslim world wreaking havoc and a Christian minority in those countries said 'yeah, we don't agree with that guy but don't expect us to do anything about them!'

What do you think those governments would do?


Did you beat up people who supported the Iraq war? or support drone strikes?
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

when you write this

I can tell you also that 70% of moderate muslims will oppose these actions. but these 70% don't sympathise with the victims and think it's good riddance. Did you see it?

Not only you are not bringing any fact, but you are infering that moderate muslims think these attacks were justified.
This is trolling, yes.

And satire has its limits. What you did is not satire.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:27 PM)mikado Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:22 PM)almohajem Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:11 PM)Old Fritz Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:05 PM)almohajem Wrote:  

As an ex-muslim, I can tell this with a lot of confidence: It's not the Extremist that should worry you. It's the moderate muslims.

They are wolfs in the image of a sheep.

I have seen a big number of highly talented, highly educated, well-off and mature persons turn into terrorists in a couple of weeks.

Can you elaborate?

No Problem. I didn't want to bother to reply to mikado as it seems his next step is launching a rocket toward me.

I was born in a very conservative town (shithole), but in the same time we got technology and opened up to the western civilisation. Muslim people are just like any other people in the world but they are extremely committed to the ideals of their religion (even though they might not be committed to the rules of the religion).

It means they are hard-believers in God, Quran, and the Prophet. These are high-status for them. On the other hand, this strong commitment means that you can't really challenge their ideals.

I kid you not, it took me 5 years of getting over the fear of non-existance of god. For 5 years, the single thought of atheism will terrify me. Deep inside, I know the idea of god is bullshit. But just the fact of thinking about it terrifies me.

Now let's talk about the religion. It's very versatile that you can interpret it in many ways. As a muslim you are obliged to fight and kill those who don't believe in your religion. But it's better if you do it peacefully. Now you can choose.

Moderate muslims are dangerous because deep inside they can be turned into terrorists very easily. Where do you think all the ISISs fighters come from? Some of them were even British.


So when someone criticizes your way of bringing your point you paint him as someone who would throw a rocket on you?
If this is not trolling, I don't know what it is.

Dude, that's exactly what you did. You accused him of trolling right off the bat because he said he was a former Muslim, an apostate according to your religion, who didn't offer a sympathetic rosy view in accordance with yours.

You attacked him without even reading his full experience because he is not a defender of your faith anymore.

You need to relax.

"Men willingly believe what they wish." - Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico, Book III, Ch. 18
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

This thread is moving fast.

Just wanted to add something to an earlier comment about Pearl Harbor.

Check out what happened in the wak of the attacks on Pearl Harbor.

Quote:Quote:

The internment of Japanese Americans in the United States was the forced relocation and incarceration during World War II of between 110,000 and 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry who lived on the Pacific coast in camps in the interior of the country. Sixty-two percent of the internees were United States citizens. The U.S. government ordered the removal of Japanese Americans in 1942, shortly after Imperial Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.

Such incarceration was applied unequally due to differing population concentrations and, more importantly, state and regional politics: more than 110,000 Japanese Americans, nearly all who lived on the West Coast, were forced into interior camps...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_..._Americans

The above is probably common knowledge to most of us on here. But it is important to remember that this occurred since it is not often discussed these days.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

I did not attack him for that.
I criticized him for his second post. Read what I wrote before your last post.
Anyway, I peace out of this thread for the moment.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:32 PM)zanetti Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:12 PM)Brotein Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:07 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2015 12:56 PM)Brotein Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2015 12:51 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

Front line soldiers coem from the working class, not the underclass. The udnerclass are a dangerous social movement that will destroy the UK, they are a much greater threat to the UK than muslims. Remember those 2011 summer riots.

Contrary to what was reported in the media, the majority of people in those riots were black


So instead of underclass, now we're talking about the white underclass?

The riots in Salford (a predominantly white area) were black?
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:13 PM)mikado Wrote:  

There is a hashtag #jesuisCharlie ( I am Charlie) going viral, and a lot of people are changing their Facebook profile pic to a picture with that sentence on.

Yep; same here in Montréal. Lots of support and already 3000 people planning to attend some big march/rally in downtown later tonight. Of course, none of that sh** matters. I expect it to be VERY politically correct since it is organized much more in support of the victims than of their actual beliefs/artistic practice.

We'll also probably hear a little bit from the local Muslim community, although the situation here seems very good compared to Europe. For some reasons, the number of wacko cases is pretty low and most of them have integrated fairly well. And I live right in the heart of multicultural Montreal.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Dear friends,

As a person of Islamic background, I feel I should address this issue with some perspectives which may not come easily to those who are not actively engaged in Islam, or have direct involvement with the religion. I feel that this community is special because of its ability to detect the underlying emotional motivations of human beings, and it is because of this attribute that I hope what I say will make sense to some of you.

First of all, murder is always a tragedy from the Islamic perspective, and especially such cold-blooded murder as you have read about today. Any muslim who supports this does his own religion a disservice, as well as a disservice to other followers of the religion, God Himself, and humanity in general. This is unconditionally true.

However, my post is an attempt to explain the tension that exists between Islam and the West.

On the freedom of speech:

It must be noted that the absolute freedom of speech is not conducive to a cooperative society. We would not say whatever came to our minds about our dear friends' family members, for instance, because such topics can be sensitive.

In general, muslims do not choose Islam as those in the west might choose a religion. In Islamic countries, and to most muslims, Islam is a right by birth - it is like being born into a family that defines itself by certain beliefs.

Islam is reality to muslims, and a violation of the tenets of that reality (especially when it is intended offensively) is much more hurtful to muslims than those in the west might imagine. It is like somebody has insulted your mother intentionally for no reason apart from because they wished to demonstrate their freedom of speech. Now, I am not saying that hurt justifies murder, but I imagine that many people do not understand why it causes such severe reactions. Islam is not merely choosing to believe in a God; it is seeing God and his word in every aspect of reality, and respecting that word with love and devotion. Even though I have spent many of my formative years in the west and gained a great appreciation for its many qualities, upon seeing the cartoons it felt as though my beliefs were worth nothing to my friends, and my innermost comfort was fair game for mockery. Imagine doing something in devotion five times a day for your whole life, with your whole family and community, and then being told by somebody that it is worth nothing in a deliberately incendiary manner.

Note that when people compare insulting Jesus and Christianity to insulting Muhammad, they make a false comparison, because in many western countries only a small percentage of the population practice a faith, and they often grow up in a society which values principles such as freedom of speech. As such, religiously offensive pieces are part and parcel of that society, and it is normalised. It is incorrect, however, to assume that because it is normal and acceptable in the west, it is also the case in Islamic countries. On the contrary, it is seen as a sign of degeneration and blasphemy. To think that other countries should adopt western norms is perhaps indicative of a colonial mindset, but to think that Islamic countries should react in the same manner is to betray a complete lack of understanding of the moral fabric of those societies.

Of course, the muslims living in western countries have chosen to live there, and so should adapt to the new environment and not expect special treatment.

On terrorism:

Once again, I must reiterate that such cold-blooded murder is unconditionally wrong. I will attempt to explain the emotional motivations of terrorists, but this is in no way a justification.

The outrage and horror at today's events is evident, and it is widespread across Europe and the west - that is because the attack is not merely against a French publication, but rather it symbolically attacks western values. No matter where you are in the west, it feels close to home.

This sentiment is mirrored in the Islamic world, for as I said earlier, when you are a muslim, there is no reality outside of Islam, and therefore all muslims feel to a certain extent like family. The consequence of this is that when drones are killing children in Pakistan, it feels like the west is attacking you as a muslim. This leads some to terrorism, and whilst I cannot condone it, I can understand how it happens. Some of you might be thinking that western powers should increase its aggression towards Islam because of today's events...well, the inverse is true for those who consider the many wars in the middle east and asia to be unjustified occupations of muslim countries. Note that there has not been a single instance of an Islamic occupation of a western country, but there have been multiple western occupations of islamic countries. A reaction is inevitable, and my thought is that there would have been outright war if there weren't such an asymmetry of power between the occupying forces and the occupied.

'Islamophobic' reactions are completely understandable:

If I had not grown up in an Islamic context, and only grown up in the west, I could well be what people call 'islamophobic'. This is a bullshit term which only adds to divisions between the two cultures, as it applies a blanket terminology to many issues without addressing the cause of these issues.

Islam as it is commonly presented in the media is not easily likeable. Many Islamic countries have not adhered to Islamic tenets, and this adds to the problem. A good example is Saudi Arabia, where hideous, gigantic, neon structures now surround the most sacred location in Islam, and a fundamentally flawed interpretation of the religion (Wahhabism) dominates the cultural landscape.

Terrorists shout 'Allahu Akbar' before murdering innocent people - the same phrase that is used in the call to prayer. There is a repression of women in many states, and there has been a fundamental lack of cultural and philosophical development for the past two centuries - most of the development that has occurred has been in the form of a cheap imitation of the west, and most cultural treasures stem from a time far back in antiquity, or so it seems.

In contrast to all this evidence, I must insist, this is not Islam.

Many wonder why muslims do not speak up for themselves and explain their religion. Trust me, they do, but it is like trying to conduct a philosophy lesson next to a parade. I have a personal relative who has written books about the religion, specifically in response to 9/11, and actively conducts interfaith dialogues in America, but of course the media is not going to run segments on the true meaning of Islam, it will cover what is most newsworthy. Unfortunately, the most newsworthy aspects of Islam are the most controversial, and this is often the fault of muslims, who have not educated themselves in their religion, and also the fault of occupying forces, who force violent reactions from muslims.

The solution comes from within, and without:

Many here are familiar with the SJW narrative, and have tried to influence culture by pointing out its flaws and hypocrisy. It is clear that it is no easy task to shift a cultural paradigm, but in the west there is a culture of individual determination which encourages a critical appraisal of information to make an informed decision. Even in such a climate, cultural change is not easy.

In a similar way, many educated muslims have been trying to change narratives about Islam, however, there is a great problem in the way narratives about the religion are disseminated. Often, their is a hierarchical power structure to this dissemination, and the incumbent power will use religion to its advantage, encouraging suitable elements of repression through dubious interpretation. This is what muslims must fight against, and it is indeed the responsibility of muslims to change this narrative to live in a better, more Islamic society.

However, this also requires a lack of interference from the west, because otherwise many muslims will react with violence and hatred. They will feel oppressed and victimised, and no attempt to censor or influence an islamic society will ever succeed without total annihilation of one or the other. Again, I must repeat that God is not a choice for muslims, and the teachings of the Quran are not a choice either. The west will never be able to justify such freedom of speech to a muslim country: the perspectives are totally incompatible in some senses and should be respected as such.

I personally do not know any muslims who condone the atrocities you see in the media, despite spending my childhood in a muslim society and being of a muslim background. I noticed that Milo Yiannopoulos tweeted some statistics about those who empathised with 9/11 and 7/7 (1 in 5 muslims), and again I would say a significant number of people here would empathise with the French if they declared war on an Islamic country in response to the attacks today. Furthermore, 'empathise' is not a synonym for 'support'.

I do believe the answer is to leave each culture to its own devices.

What is Islam?

Finally, I will inform you about some of the actual teachings in Islam, so you know that I am not just repeating platitudes.

Every single verse in the Quran except one begins with the words: 'In the name of Allah, the Infinitely Good, the All-Merciful'. These two names of God are chosen from 99 names, highlighting the particular aspects of God that are absolutely fundamental: that is, goodness and love (moreover, compassionate love). No-one can claim that acts of terror are acts of goodness and love. The passages of violence in the Quran directed early muslims against those who wished to stop them from practicing their religion. It was, ironically, a war against the terrorising of the first muslims.

In the Quran, it is said: 'For each We have appointed a law and a path; and if God had wished He would have made you one people. But He hath made you as ye are that He may put you to the test in what He hath given you. So vie with one another in good works. Unto God ye will all be brought back and He will then tell you about those things wherein ye differed.'

The emphasis of the Quran relative to other religions is on oneness and submission. This submission is done out of humility in the face of the great creative Force. In such humility, there is no place for muslims to discriminate between which of those created are better and which are worse, the only thing that is certain is that the Oneness is supreme; and in that sense, we are all equally worthy in our participation in this oneness, muslim or not.

Yesterday, I was praying to myself, using the phrase 'Allahu Akbar', which means God is great. I was thinking of the many wonderful things that have happened in my life, including discovering this forum. Remembering God is not done as a justification for our human atrocities, it is done in celebration of the preciousness and beauty of life. It is done so that even in our darkest hour, we might recall that there is an objective goodness upon which we all can depend.

I hope I will have brought a useful perspective to this issue.

Wishing peace and love to all.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:30 PM)Brotein Wrote:  

The majority of the British public supported the war against Iraq before it started. This resulted in the murder of millions of muslims, it was a cluster fuck of epic proportions.

The US conducted 2 wars against middle eastern nations, not to mention endless drone executions.

Are all the people in these societies violent savages who can't control their aggression?

Are these people apart of a cultural war against muslim societies?

Or do you only hold these tags for people who don't look/whorship like you?

False analogy. Those wars weren't fought on behalf of Christianity. There was no religious pretext for those wars. The wars were geo-strategic in nature. Religion had zero to do with it. We also have Muslim countries we give aid to and that are technically allies, so to say the wars were anti-Islam is ludicrous.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 10:28 AM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

Europe drove out Christianity. While Christianity certainly wasn't perfect, it helped build the European empires.

Big exaggeration. The key liberal positive concept of Christianity, which is that every person has some value, or at least a soul, is deeply embedded in European and American society, even though the obsolete cosmology is little considered.

That's why we arrest murderers instead of having lynch mob "justice" which ends up being inevitable chaos-- like clan based alliances without rule of law in shitholes like Iraq and Pakistan.

The humility of Christianty's "we are all sinners" idea is useful, as well as factually real.

We all tend to over react, so rule of law gives us a chance to rein in those extreme tendencies for revenge. We look for the "plank in my own eye" before I look for " the splinter in yours" and don't start these endless, endless hatred feuds like the Israelis and the Muslims have.

The prosperity and relative peacefulness of predominantly Christian countries compared to Africa and middle east proves that it works better as a basic social model.

Consumerism is a blight-- you only have value if you are rich-- but giving every person a chance is a good model.

if someone wants to go buy a machine gun and run through the Islamic neighborhoods of Paris murdering perfectly peaceable families who think these terrorists are nuts I don't think it a good idea for anyone.

However, making any illegal manufacture of an explosive device get 25 year minimum sentence, I'm all for it. Rational rule of law. It's a good thing.

Unfortunately, inflexibility and hyper-reactivity seems bred into the uneducated populations of harsh places like Iraq and Chechnya, where to be over-reactive may have been an evolutionary advantage over being cooperative.

Good reason to screen for education when letting in people from shitholes.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Al Sahib-

Well, yes. It was... useful.

So it's totally not okay to murder people for insulting Allah, but hey, you've gotta understand that he's like, super-important to us and everything, right, so maybe you heathens should just keep your mouths shut. Am I reading that correctly?

If your first instinct after your co-religionists murder people is to lecture the people who were killed on "tolerance", maybe Western civilization isn't for you.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:40 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:30 PM)Brotein Wrote:  

The majority of the British public supported the war against Iraq before it started. This resulted in the murder of millions of muslims, it was a cluster fuck of epic proportions.

The US conducted 2 wars against middle eastern nations, not to mention endless drone executions.

Are all the people in these societies violent savages who can't control their aggression?

Are these people apart of a cultural war against muslim societies?

Or do you only hold these tags for people who don't look/whorship like you?

False analogy. Those wars weren't fought on behalf of Christianity. There was no religious pretext for those wars. The wars were geo-strategic in nature. Religion had zero to do with it.


Really? So the support for the Iraq war was not borne of aggression towards muslims?


You think all of those supporters of the Iraq war were interested in geo-political ambitions of the US?

I think if we were being honest with ourselves (and by we, i mean you). You would know that the Iraq war was conducted because the US was angry at muslims and wanted to kill them for the 9/11 attack. The fact that the 9/11 attackers came from SA was neither here nor there. There was a blood lust and people wanted to see muslims die.

Did you think the operations of the US military in Fallujah were also geo-political or was this to massacre muslims for revenge of murdered American contractors who were strung up on a bridge?

The US army restricted all media into Fallujah so they could commit the most aggressive and disgusting war crimes so far this century. The reports coming out of there speak of a massacre beyond anything else we have seen for a long time.

Lets not pretend that muslims are the only people who are aggresive or are unreasonable. In fact the level of aggression they exhibit pales in comparison to right-wing Americans.

Truth hurts.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

^^^

@Al Sahab:

These are noble sentiments. Unfortunately they are shared only by a very small percentage of the population, the literati and highly educated types.

One can justify nearly anything by tossing out a few quotes from any sacred scripture. It doesn't change the reality on the ground.

The reality is that the barbarians are at the gates. Or, more correctly, are already inside the gates. Now is the time for applying force against force.

Considerations of "rights" will have to be temporarily put aside until the crisis is dealt with.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 11:05 AM)CJ_W Wrote:  

If I were Muslim, and lived in Europe right now, I would either
a)change my name
b)find some way to practice my religion in secret (Christians had to do this at some points in history I believe)
c)get out of Europe(or work towards that) and try to find a country that doesn't have much of a Problem with Muslim extremists, like Canada, or even NZ (Not Australia)

d)leave Islam.

Ex-Muslim voices, from humble posters at Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain and /r/exmuslim to higher profile individuals like Ali Rizvi, and the dangers faced by apostates need to be amplified.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:45 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

Al Sahib-

Well, yes. It was... useful.

So it's totally not okay to murder people for insulting Allah, but hey, you've gotta understand that he's like, super-important to us and everything, right, so maybe you heathens should just keep your mouths shut. Am I reading that correctly?

If your first instinct after your co-religionists murder people is to lecture the people who were killed on "tolerance", maybe Western civilization isn't for you.

You did not understand me. An explanation of a reaction is not a justification of a reaction.

My first instinct was to feel great sadness. I love many aspects of western civilisation, and I believe murder is a crime, no matter who you are, and should not be tolerated anywhere.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:38 PM)Al Sahab Wrote:  

Note that there has not been a single instance of an Islamic occupation of a western country, but there have been multiple western occupations of islamic countries.

Your knowledge of history leaves something to be desired

-Spain
-Portugal
-South of France
-Greece
-Malta
-Cyprus
-Sicily
-Bulgaria
-Austria
-Moldova
-Hungary

and I'm probably forgetting a few

Detective Rust Cohle: "All the dick swagger you roll, you can't spot crazy pussy?"
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:46 PM)Brotein Wrote:  

The US army restricted all media into Fallujah so they could commit the most aggressive and disgusting war crimes so far this century. The reports coming out of there speak of a massacre beyond anything else we have seen for a long time.

Lets not pretend that muslims are the only people who are aggresive or are unreasonable. In fact the level of aggression they exhibit pales in comparison to right-wing Americans.

Truth hurts.

The western world invented the Geneva Conventions exactly because they knew the depths war can drive men to.

A Royal Marine was convicted of the murder of a Taliban fighter as a war crime.

Do you really want to see what people are capable of when they are pushed to breaking point with no restraints on their behaviour?

"I'd hate myself if I had that kind of attitude, if I were that weak." - Arnold
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 10:44 AM)Old Fritz Wrote:  

[*]Our own President (Obama) appeasing Islam rather than confronting it directly

Wasn't it Obama who had Bin Laden wasted after Bush couldn't find him for years?

Isn't it Obama who is continuing to pick off tribal assholes in Pakistan until the mofos turned on their own government?

He would be a reply moronic politician if he just called out all Islamic people in the world.
What do you want him to do, tell all two billion Muslims to convert or he'll nuke them?

Indonesia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Iraq, Iran, all the Ickystans? You can't just kill or intimidate 1/4 or 1/3 of the people in the world, most of whom aren't assholes. You have to get along with the decent ones.

You seem to have a rather loose grasp on reality.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:45 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

Al Sahib-

Well, yes. It was... useful.

So it's totally not okay to murder people for insulting Allah, but hey, you've gotta understand that he's like, super-important to us and everything, right, so maybe you heathens should just keep your mouths shut. Am I reading that correctly?

If your first instinct after your co-religionists murder people is to lecture the people who were killed on "tolerance", maybe Western civilization isn't for you.

Hamster spinning to the max.

Does anyone really believe that murder and violence is a great tragedy in Islam, when Islam is the single religion in the world most strongly correlated with violence.

Words are cheap.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:33 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

“Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms. This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today. I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity. ‘Respect for religion’ has become a code phrase meaning ‘fear of religion.’ Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect.”

Salman Rushdie, today.
Golden words that every liberal in the West and every Muslim in the world need to hear. I'm disappointed that the majority of people do think that you ''have to respect one's religion'', even some from this forum, and that you better avoid insulting Muslims because they are dangerous and it's not worth it. Bullshit. You don't have to respect anyone's religion or culture. You have to respect someone's right to believe in and practice this religion (meaning you can't force anyone to change their views), you have to respect a culture and its rules only when you go visit that country, you have to avoid insulting someone only as much as it takes to have a civilized conversation. You don't have to avoid criticizing someone's religion and prophet just because they hold it dear. This defeats the whole idea behind the freedom of speech. It's what leads to oppression and censorship. But no, ask people in the street and most of them will tell you that you should respect other cultures and religions otherwise it's intolerance and racism or phobia.

Pragmatically speaking, keeping insulting this religion and its prophet will screen out the extremists and change the whole innocent-peaceful image of Islam in the media. Only then can you conduct a proper war (militant or cultural) against the real enemy, the extremists. As long as you avoid sensitive subjects and respect other people's dumb ideas, the extremists will hide behind the -supposedly- peaceful majority and then come out and kill 11 people once you say something -they find- offensive about their backward mindset.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Someone's channeling QC:
[Image: attachment.jpg23941]   
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

"You did not understand me. An explanation of a reaction is not a justification of a reaction."

Sure you did. This was the very first thing you said after your introduction. This was the most important point you felt you had to make.

"It must be noted that the absolute freedom of speech is not conducive to a cooperative society. We would not say whatever came to our minds about our dear friends' family members, for instance, because such topics can be sensitive."

This was followed by several paragraphs of how sensitive a topic Allah is to muslims.

You can say what you like about how you feel "great sadness", but if the very first thing you have to say after muslims start killing westerners is "Absolute freedom of speech is not conductive to a cooperative society," you're not going to fool anyone.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 02:02 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2015 10:44 AM)Old Fritz Wrote:  

[*]Our own President (Obama) appeasing Islam rather than confronting it directly

Wasn't it Obama who had Bin Laden wasted after Bush couldn't find him for years?

Isn't it Obama who is continuing to pick off tribal assholes in Pakistan until the mofos turned on their own government?

He would be a reply moronic politician if he just called out all Islamic people in the world.
What do you want him to do, tell all two billion Muslims to convert or he'll nuke them?

Indonesia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Iraq, Iran, all the Ickystans? You can't just kill or intimidate 1/4 or 1/3 of the people in the world, most of whom aren't assholes. You have to get along with the decent ones.

You seem to have a rather loose grasp on reality.

You say all of this based off of that single statement I made. You could have just asked me to explain what I meant by that statement rather than jumping to conclusions and throwing around conjectures.
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 02:03 PM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

Golden words that every liberal in the West and every Muslim in the world need to hear. I'm disappointed that the majority of people do think that you ''have to respect one's religion'', even some from this forum, and that you better avoid insulting Muslims because they are dangerous and it's not worth it. Bullshit. You don't have to respect anyone's religion or culture. You have to respect someone's right to believe in and practice this religion (meaning you can't force anyone to change their views), you have to respect a culture and its rules only when you go visit that country, you have to avoid insulting someone only as much as it takes to have a civilized conversation. You don't have to avoid criticizing someone's religion and prophet just because they hold it dear. This defeats the whole idea behind the freedom of speech. It's what leads to oppression and censorship. But no, ask people in the street and most of them will tell you that you should respect other cultures and religions otherwise it's intolerance and racism or phobia.

Pragmatically speaking, keeping insulting this religion and its prophet will screen out the extremists and change the whole innocent-peaceful image of Islam in the media. Only then can you conduct a proper war (militant or cultural) against the real enemy, the extremists. As long as you avoid sensitive subjects and respect other people's dumb ideas, the extremists will hide behind the -supposedly- peaceful majority and then come out and kill 11 people once you say something -they find- offensive about their backward mindset.

It is not necessary to insult the religious, even though you have the right (which I will gladly defend) to do something doesn't mean you should.

I respect and tolerate other people's cultures and religions, as long as they're not being imported into my homeland in droves by traitors, used to attack the existing majority culture and whipped up into a frenzy by anti-white, anti-Christian, anti-civilization crypto-communists.

"Men willingly believe what they wish." - Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico, Book III, Ch. 18
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Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

Quote: (01-07-2015 02:01 PM)zanetti Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2015 01:38 PM)Al Sahab Wrote:  

Note that there has not been a single instance of an Islamic occupation of a western country, but there have been multiple western occupations of islamic countries.

Your knowledge of history leaves something to be desired

-Spain
-Portugal
-South of France
-Greece
-Malta
-Cyprus
-Sicily
-Bulgaria
-Austria
-Moldova
-Hungary

and I'm probably forgetting a few

Zanetti, you are correct, I apologise for those words. I am aware of those occupations.

I was referring to the recent conflicts in the middle east.
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