[Alfa]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Before I got into game I would've considered myself an extreme extrovert. But once I got some momentum going with approaches, I noticed that I'm always more energized after socializing. I feel like I want to talk with more and more people any chance I get. I considered changing careers and going into sales. I realized how important connecting with others is.

I often wonder if introversion is simply an excuse for people too lazy to put in the work. Kind of how people who are overweight will often say "Oh I have a slow metabolism," when in reality only 200 calories/day separate the best from the worst.

This even extends to how the obese will blame their condition on genetics, when in reality, they've just been eating at a caloric surplus everyday of their lives.

[Alpha_Romeo]

Socializing drains the shit out of me. Even worse if the socializing occurs in crowded noisy environments, such as a nightclub. So, yes, introversion is indeed a real phenomenon. However, people are fucking lazy and/or fearful as well. So there probably are a lot of dudes out there that attribute their lack of trying to introversion, which is a cop-out.

[SamuelBRoberts]

I don't think so. When I'm in public I'm enormously sociable. The last time I was at a work function one of the guys was bragging about how I'd hit on no less than 5 girls during a 20 minute span. I'm a solid negotiator and I'm good with talking to people. When the company needs someone who can talk to a difficult customer, they always come to me, and 30 year business veterans have come to me to talk about their negotiating tactics.

But I just don't like to do it. I find it exhausting. I prefer to stay at home with my books and games, and on long breaks I've often gone for 5 days or more without saying anything but the simplest pleasantries to the guy at the gas station or restaurant. I would be perfectly happy on an isolated island with nothing but a good internet connection and a supply of food.

[kerouac]

Personally, I've felt both extremes, and I think in the end I side with your view of the whole dichotomy.

I felt more "introverted" when I spent more time alone, and then I felt more "extroverted" when I spent more time around a lot of people. I haven't felt that one was more "natural" than the other, because at the time I was feeling either state it was based on my surroundings.

Overall, I think I feel more "extroverted" when I'm around more people who tend to have an agreement with my thoughts, or are at least open minded enough to take them in, and more "introverted" when I'm around people who don't seem to "get" me.

[Pinocchio]

most people have probably got mixtures of both

[speakeasy]

It's not a myth. And there's nothing about introversion that is "lazy". You seem to be under the premise that introversion is an inherently bad trait. It isn't. You also seem to believe that introverts can't be social. They can be normally social, especially if you're not at the extreme end of the continuum. It's just that introverts don't need social stimulation to the degree that extroverts do. Twin studies have shown that heritability plays a role, though environment does too.

http://www.bgnews.com/campus/research-on...03286.html

I was out last night for a whole evening of socializing with a circle of peeps. I had fun, good conversation, joked, flirted, drank, made people laugh. We went out for dinner at the end of the night at a restaurant. By this time I was kind of tired of talking all night. I then just shut up, ate my food and listened to the chatter around me. I didn't find anything interesting that people were taking about at that point. I found my own thoughts more interesting and withdrew into my head. I don't feel like I was being antisocial. I just don't feel the need to run my mouth for the sake of doing so if I no longer feel like it. My social energy batteries were depleted. That's what introversion means to me.

@Kerouac

Great point. I agree. If I'm actually talking to people about things I'm interested in, I can feel really energized. Especially if it's an intimate conversation between just me and another person or no more than 2 people. But situations where I'm with a lot of people that I don't have much in common with and it's just an endless stream of small talk and sarcastic banter, I can play along for a bit but get quickly worn out.

[WestIndianArchie]

I don't know if you've ever dealt with children, but some kids are born shy.
They hide behind the skirts of their mothers. It takes them a while to get used to you. But when they get used to you, they won't shut up.

Some kids just aren't impressed with crowds. They'd rather spend some quiet time doing something they want to do, as opposed to doing something that other people want them to do. They are driven by their internal energy not the external environment.

Introversion seems to be socially worse in boys than girls, as girls are heavily socialized to be extroverts and outgoing - but our society then throws on a hierarchy when they go to the primarily socializing factor, school.

WIA

[kerouac]

(04-06-2015 02:32 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

some kids are born shy.

Are they born shy, or have they grown up in an environment that doesn't allow them to blossom (or realize their full potential)?

[Windom Earle]

(04-06-2015 01:56 AM)Alfa Wrote:  

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Before I got into game I would've considered myself an extreme extrovert. But once I got some momentum going with approaches, I noticed that I'm always more energized after socializing. I feel like I want to talk with more and more people any chance I get. I considered changing careers and going into sales. I realized how important connecting with others is.

I often wonder if introversion is simply an excuse for people too lazy to put in the work. Kind of how people who are overweight will often say "Oh I have a slow metabolism," when in reality only 200 calories/day separate the best from the worst.

This even extends to how the obese will blame their condition on genetics, when in reality, they've just been eating at a caloric surplus everyday of their lives.

You infer that introverts (which make up close to 50% of the population) lack drive & ambition, are socially inept/shy and are therefore unsuccessful in life.

I suggest that you conduct a bit of research before starting a trollish thread such as this.

[Big B]

(04-06-2015 02:42 AM)kerouac Wrote:  

(04-06-2015 02:32 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

some kids are born shy.

Are they born shy, or have they grown up in an environment that doesn't allow them to blossom (or realize their full potential)?

I agree with kerouac

I have a best friend who had cancer as a kid, he was introduced to an organization for kids with cancer. They camped out, played games, sports, crafts, socialized, assumed leadership positions, positive mental attitude all around. He beat cancer, and continued to go until his 18th birthday. The guy grew up in this environment and made/loss a lot of friends. This guy is the biggest extrovert I know, always dying to go out and meet new people and try new things. A complete natural, I think his notch count is in the high double digits and hes only 21.

I like to think being "introvert" is just male hamstering, but odds are some people were not raised to be outgoing.

[N°6]

I think humans are naturally introverted: 'I think therefore I am'.

[AnonymousBosch]

(04-06-2015 01:56 AM)Alfa Wrote:  

I often wonder if introversion is simply an excuse for people too lazy to put in the work. Kind of how people who are overweight will often say "Oh I have a slow metabolism," when in reality only 200 calories/day separate the best from the worst.

Some of the guys here are confusing shyness (fear based) or social awkwardness (misunderstanding of cues) with introversion. Introverts simply draw energy from inward sources, whilst extroverts draw energy from others.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

Extraversion tends to be manifested in outgoing, talkative, energetic behavior, whereas introversion is manifested in more reserved and solitary behavior.

As to the suggestion it's not real:

Quote:

Virtually all comprehensive models of personality include these concepts in various forms. Examples include the Big Five model, Jung's analytical psychology, Hans Eysenck's three-factor model, Raymond Cattell's 16 personality factors, the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory, and the Myers–Briggs Type Indicator.

So, dammit, here's some Introvert Pride.

I'm introverted. I'm perfectly socially-functional, game girls and can dominate the conversation in a group, should I chose to do so. This is not social awkwardness: I've acted on the stage, have a movie - finally - coming out later this year and front a band. (I'm not big baller trolling, but to clarify what Introverts can do when focused. Hell, Introverts aren't as socially-approval driven as extroverts, so I'm indifferent as to whether you believe me or not).

The difference is, I process experience differently to extroverts: every so often I need quiet downtime and solitude - this usually involves getting out in nature - to recharge and quietly consider the experiences and thoughts in my head. Since extroverted people are looking to take energy from me, sometimes I simply don't feel like giving it to them, and withdraw.

I don't crave or need social contact, because I enjoy my own company, and most extroverts can only offer me a superficial level of social stimulation, as I crave to think deeply about topics, carefully-analyse what I observe and plan strategies for success. Most often, extroverts are just pests - interrupting more interesting trains of thought.

I'm a classic Myers-Briggs INTJ. You'd be wise to understand us, because whilst you're underestimating us, we've carefully-laid out plans for stealing your girl and crushing your dreams, and you won't see it coming because we've had time to consider every outcome and having to slow down to attempt to explain the absolutely fucking obvious is painful. Meanwhile, you were talking about the weather and movies.

You haven't seen Game until you've seen two INTJ's working as a team. We're only (EDIT: checked newer estimates) 0.8% of the population, so when we find each other, it's intense.

Fellow INTJ's might enjoy this article:

INTJ - The Character Most Writers Get Wrong

Another breakdown INTJ Personality

[WestIndianArchie]

@Kerouac,

Again this comes from interacting with very small children - before they can walk or talk, but it's not uncommon for siblings to fact react to strangers differently. The older kid might be adventurous around people, the other scared or disinterested with people. Or the other way around.

And this happens early. Kids at the infant level aren't just mere sponges or reacting with fight flight responses based on stimuli, they have their own personalities. Less controversially, Some babies will like peas and others prefer carrots.

If you've ever raised animals, you'll see the same thing. Puppies and kittens from the same litter aren't all the same.

People love to think that everything is nature, or nurture. It's more complicated than that.

WIA

[Phoenix]

Yes, it is a biological phenomenon (tendency to socialize), but not a strong one. I.e. unlike height, you can stretch towards extroversion if you have a motivation to do so.

[zombiejimmorrison]

^^
While that's all well and good, the myers Briggs personality types are a bit like horoscopes. Everyone calls themselves INTJ, it usually starts with I'm an INTJ.

[AnonymousBosch]

@WIA:

Besides personality type, social fears and awkwardness, Attachment Theory can also come into play. A good breakdown here.



It's similar but far more complex in adults.

I'd love to run some experiments for prevalence of Dismissive-Avoidant and Fearful-Avoidant Attachment Style in the Millennial Population, as I'm observing a lot of girls with qualities of both, where the both have highly-postitive AND negative views of themselves, and it's a hell of a lot more than 20% of the population.

As you can see from the graph, Avoidant styles arise out of distant, disengaged mothers, which seems to be prevalent in working single mothers, particularly those prone to narcissism.

[AnonymousBosch]

(04-06-2015 04:49 AM)zombiejimmorrison Wrote:  

^^
While that's all well and good, the myers Briggs personality types are a bit like horoscopes. Everyone calls themselves INTJ, it usually starts with I'm an INTJ.

I believe my own understanding and analysis of the world and myself is just a tad more complex than taking a Facebook Quiz, so I'll put it to the test.

I'll consider what I've observed of Roosh through his writing and forum interactions.

Action-Orientated / Seeks Breadth of Knowledge and Influence / Desires Frequent Interaction / Finds Meaning In The Observable Data / Favours Logic And Reason / Shows World Logical Face Rather Than Empathic One

ESTJ: Extroverted / Sensing / Thinking / Judging

The book an ESTJ would write:



If my observations are wrong, then these descriptions would bear no resemblance to Roosh:

Quote:

ESTJs are representatives of tradition and order, utilizing their understanding of what is right, wrong and socially acceptable to bring families and communities together. Embracing the values of honesty, dedication and dignity, people with the ESTJ personality type are valued for their clear advice and guidance, and they happily lead the way on difficult paths. Taking pride in bringing people together, ESTJs often take on roles as community organizers, working hard to bring everyone together in celebration of cherished local events, or in defense of the traditional values that hold families and communities together.

Quote:

ESTJs are aware of their surroundings and live in a world of clear, verifiable facts - the surety of their knowledge means that even against heavy resistance, they stick to their principles and push an unclouded vision of what is and is not acceptable.

From observing Quintus Curtius:

Thought-Orientated / Seeks Depth Of Knowledge and Influence / Desires Substantial Interaction / Finds Meaning In The Underlying Theory Behind Data / Favours Logic And Reason / Shows World Logical Face Rather Than Empathic Face

INTJ: Introverted / Intuition / Thinking / Judging

The book an INTJ would write:



Does this sound like QC?

Quote:

With a natural thirst for knowledge that shows itself early in life, INTJs are often given the title of "bookworm" as children. While this may be intended as an insult by their peers, they more than likely identify with it and are even proud of it, greatly enjoying their broad and deep body of knowledge. INTJs enjoy sharing what they know as well, confident in their mastery of their chosen subjects.

Quote:

A paradox to most observers, INTJs are able to live by glaring contradictions that nonetheless make perfect sense - at least from a purely rational perspective. For example, INTJs are simultaneously the most starry-eyed idealists and the bitterest of cynics, a seemingly impossible conflict. But this is because INTJ types tend to believe that with effort, intelligence and consideration, nothing is impossible, while at the same time they believe that people are too lazy, short-sighted or self-serving to actually achieve those fantastic results.

The latter tends to manifest in a desire to help people, swinging to a frustration that they can't understand us or appreciate what they're being offered by us.

EDIT: Turns out I was right from memory in my original post, and the edited 0.8% figure I highlighted is wrong. INTJ's are 2% of the population. As an INTJ, I should have trusted my gut.

[kosko]

Introvert is a fad term just like "nerd" and ,"geeky". Many times social awkward weirdos use the cover as "introvert" to mask the fact they just ain't that cool. Just as how losers use the term "nerdy" to also describe the fact they ain't that cool.

I did a bunch of those tests and it turns out I am INTJ. I was near the extrovert threshold so at first I felt odd about it it but that is because modern society shames introversion. The reality is these types of people operate in the background. They are there, you just don't notice it until they come in with tatical finesse into your frame.

Like wise just with ABosh I have done stage work, film, TV, a radio show, hell for fuck sakes I swing and fuck broads in public and have no shame about it. Few have done music orbstage shows in front of 1000 people, it is nothing for me, at tines I get to relaxed in front of crowds and professionally it has bit me as in school I am way to casual with presentstions. I can just sit and have a conversation with my peers while still giving all the important information I need to give. It has given me shit marks at times as I didn't 'follow instructions' but that has been my whole school career to date.

Also it seems with INTJs we are tuned with over sensitive and strong senses. My taste buds somties flush with pain from certain foods, my eyes have always been lazer sharp, my ears have been good and have helped me with making music, I smell very deeply and the slightest smell can make me sick, have the sex drive of a rabbit but I also enjoy the physical connection with a woman I care for after sex immensely. To me it seems the biggest battle to this trait is putting structure around you to take the ability to seek detail and interest into a force that moves you forward.

I find myself a better extrovert then most extroverts because I go into social situations with a bang, a plan, making sure that interaction is going to be the best. I don't like mediocre engagement. To me nothing sounds worse then a "lazy" day hanging out with a barley close friend as they run arrands, "Kosko come with me to file my taxes".... Really? I try to make things count so effort goes into engagements even if the same effort is not received on the other end I can't just waltz into things, I must have a plan.

Cool like I noted from the start can go both ways. The more extroverted cool kid will have more sway but I am convinced from reading on successful creative types that more lean to the introverted side as you need that focus and time to perfect your skill. When I see that men such as Arnold and Trump share my traits it makes sense as I see very detailed and planned methods. Arnold fell for a Kennedy as he had aspirations for power, all part of the plan. I would of done the same if the opportunity presented itself. Trump in talking good gab to get creditors to let him get one more property that would turn his fourtnes. These types never see rules that can't be questioned or changes, desire power, and get a very much methodic in thier actions and movement.

Nothing is every random with us, the random fun date I take a girl on is all planned and scripted. Oh that nice park down the street from the bar were drinking at, the cold tall boys in my bad to pre-drink, oh and the weed man across the park in his apartment if needed to get some kush, oh and the bar being a block from my transit line or a 7 min cab ride to my place.. All planned but these broads never clue in.

Lastly to end my rants you can see with the "16 personalities" that it is evenenly devided up. A good 8 of them are split between busy bee workers who just go through life being work mules and doing everything to script (married, kids, and house by 30), also the extroverted types who use social shame to keep the status quo and mainstream ideas alive. The funny thing is most people fall into those 8 slots while the others have more sparse distributions.

[Fortis]

What is wrong with being an introvert. It's funny: I love being around people but I just feel drained afterwards. The rvfers who have met me will tell you that I probably seem very outgoing and run my mouth non-stop when I'm around. I genuinely enjoy being around people, especially people who are in the know like me.

The only difference between me and an extrovert is that I need way more alone time to recover from that expenditure of energy. I simply NEED it. If I spend all my time with people I begin to suffer symptoms of fatigue. There is no way around it. No, I'm not lazy. I have put in a ton of work to be less antisocial. I used to be the kind of kid who would cry if strangers talked to him Or just ignore them. I had to put myself in hundreds of uncomfortable situations to get this baseline of comfort around people.

It's quite unfair that people look at Introversion as something bad. I think that introversion is a predictor of higher thinking abilities in some people. But I may be jumping the shark now...

[jamaicabound]

Introversion is definately not a myth. If I'm not mistaken it can actually be proved by brain scans and things like that.

Also, people often don't understand what introversion truly is. Introversion isn't about being shy, someone can be an introvert and also be an engaging public speaker and really connect with people.

Introversion is more about stimlulation. People who are introverts don't like a lot of stimulation. Basically they have over sensitive nervous systems and like a quiet peaceful environment over like 10 conversations going on at once.

Also, people who are introverts don't hate people, they just don't like bullshit small talk as it serves no purpose for them. If you get an introvert 1 on 1 or talking about a topic they are passionate about they will talk for hours but just shooting the shit about the weather isn't something they like.

My girl recently picked up a book about dating an introvert because I can be difficult and also Ineed time to myself so she gets offended I come home from work and wanna be left the fuck alone for a couple hours to unwind and she used to get offended and after reading this book she kind of realizes its nothing personal its just how I am.


I do agree introverts can use it as a crutch and give themself and excuse to live like a hobbit and that isn't good but at the same time an introvert shouldn't try to be someoen their not.

Lastly everyone wnats to mix shyness and introversion. Introversoin has nothing to do with being shy, they are two completely diff things

[Grange]

AnonymousBosch crushed it already, but I'll add this: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arch...rt/302696/

Quote:

Introverts are not necessarily shy. Shy people are anxious or frightened or self-excoriating in social settings; introverts generally are not. Introverts are also not misanthropic, though some of us do go along with Sartre as far as to say "Hell is other people at breakfast." Rather, introverts are people who find other people tiring.

Extroverts are energized by people, and wilt or fade when alone. They often seem bored by themselves, in both senses of the expression. Leave an extrovert alone for two minutes and he will reach for his cell phone. In contrast, after an hour or two of being socially "on," we introverts need to turn off and recharge. My own formula is roughly two hours alone for every hour of socializing. This isn't antisocial. It isn't a sign of depression. It does not call for medication. For introverts, to be alone with our thoughts is as restorative as sleeping, as nourishing as eating. Our motto: "I'm okay, you're okay—in small doses."

Introverts are not necessarily awkward or bad with people. On the other side there are extroverts who are naturally weird with people although I think this tends to get slowly smoothed out of them by experience.

[RexImperator]

I like that Sartre quote, haha... I really do prefer my breakfasts quiet and alone. This is not just introversion, though, since I do become a lot more talkative at night.

[Fast Eddie]

(04-06-2015 02:24 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Great point. I agree. If I'm actually talking to people about things I'm interested in, I can feel really energized. Especially if it's an intimate conversation between just me and another person or no more than 2 people. But situations where I'm with a lot of people that I don't have much in common with and it's just an endless stream of small talk and sarcastic banter, I can play along for a bit but get quickly worn out.

This describes me to a tee. In small groups talking about topics with meat on them, I can shine. If it's a large communal gathering with gossip flying around and loud laughter being exchanged over said gossip, I get drained immediately and prefer to initiate a side conversation with somebody sitting in my vicinity.

[Kamikaze]

I'll point those interested to this thread, about a book called "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking."

At the expense of coming off as a blowhard, I'd rather trust many, many years of research from psychologists to neuroscientists who have established the introversion/extroversion dichotomy as one of the most important defining psychological traits in a person. Some people believe it's the most glaring dichotomy, I do.

There's a reason it's in the Myers Briggs, which some accuse of hocus pocus, but also in the Big 5 personality traits, OCEAN. Come on, that shit is real, and it's been demonstrated to have a significant genetic contribution.

One such experiment:

Quote:

An interesting research experiment outlined in Cain’s book, Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking, follows babies’ reactions to external stimulus. “The four-month-olds who thrashed their arms like punk rockers did so not because they were extroverts in the making, but because their little bodies reacted strongly—they were “high-reactive”—to new sights, sounds, and smells,” Cain writes. “The quiet infants were silent not because they were future introverts—just the opposite—but because they had nervous systems that were unmoved by novelty.” These “high-reactive” babies grow up to be children who need a lot of time to decompress after school, need time alone to be creative and explore. They are introverts, not anti-social, Cain explains. There is a big difference.

If you didn't catch that, researchers are able to test infants as young as 4 months old whether they will react to certain stimuli. They were able to predict with high precision and accuracy, based on these reactions, whether they'd score as introverts or extroverts as adults. How significant a role does 'the environment' play in a child's personality at just 4 months old?

Having said this, a person can mold their personality. Genetics don't overpower the conversation completely, there's obviously an environmental component.

But when people say 'introversion is a fad' or it doesn't exist...

[jamaicabound]

(04-06-2015 12:16 PM)Kamikaze Wrote:  

I'll point those interested to this thread, about a book called "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking."

At the expense of coming off as a blowhard, I'd rather trust many, many years of research from psychologists to neuroscientists who have established the introversion/extroversion dichotomy as one of the most important defining psychological traits in a person. Some people believe it's the most glaring dichotomy, I do.

There's a reason it's in the Myers Briggs, which some accuse of hocus pocus, but also in the Big 5 personality traits, OCEAN. Come on, that shit is real, and it's been demonstrated to have a significant genetic contribution.

One such experiment:

Quote:

An interesting research experiment outlined in Cain’s book, Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking, follows babies’ reactions to external stimulus. “The four-month-olds who thrashed their arms like punk rockers did so not because they were extroverts in the making, but because their little bodies reacted strongly—they were “high-reactive”—to new sights, sounds, and smells,” Cain writes. “The quiet infants were silent not because they were future introverts—just the opposite—but because they had nervous systems that were unmoved by novelty.” These “high-reactive” babies grow up to be children who need a lot of time to decompress after school, need time alone to be creative and explore. They are introverts, not anti-social, Cain explains. There is a big difference.

If you didn't catch that, researchers are able to test infants as young as 4 months old whether they will react to certain stimuli. They were able to predict with high precision and accuracy, based on these reactions, whether they'd score as introverts or extroverts as adults. How significant a role does 'the environment' play in a child's personality at just 4 months old?

Having said this, a person can mold their personality. Genetics don't overpower the conversation completely, there's obviously an environmental component.

But when people say 'introversion is a fad' or it doesn't exist...

This is an interesting experiemnt. I was actually going to mention something similar in terms of proving introversion is not shyness or a personality type so much as how you handle stimuli.

I guess studies show people who would be classified as introverts tend to have more incidence of irritable bowel syndrome, food allergies, may not like spicey foods or extremes.

Because its not just a personality type or how outgoing or reserved you are, ti's about how you handle stimuli, introverts are easily overwhelmed and exhuasted by stimuli where as extroverts its like fuel they feed off of.

I enjoy working in the burbs and a slower pace where as I have friend and family who are like I couldn't not work in the city, they like the noises and people and constant interactions.

There's a couple interesting ted talks speaches about introversion. One is given by a female who gives this example I just discussed above.

The other is by a maybe 50's or 60's male professor who talks about how he's the most requested professor, gives really engaging speechse, even his ted talks speech he's animated and frienldy and engaging but he also talks about how he's been known to hide in bathroom stalls to avoid interactions with his students after class.

He talks about how he's able to kind of rev himself up for those interactions and then after he's done he needs to cool down so its not that he can't do it but its basically faking it or acting for him.