[The Wire]

Since it's holiday break I'm catching up with old friends and had dinner with an old friend of mine a few days ago. Our lives our completely different as I'm the 30 year old bachelor and hes the 30 year old father to a few kids. Don't get me wrong I can see myself having kids at some point but holy shit is it depressing walking into my friends house. It's everything I hate about the idea of marriage all rolled up into one home. My friend has the white collar job that he hates, the wife stays at home to tend the kids but he swears she doesn't pull her weight enough. To top this off she way below his league in looks and she has no sense of fashion either. So now you have an ugly wife walking around in slippers or sneakers 7 days a week who isn't pulling her weight taking care of the kids when the husband is slaving away long weeks at the office. It would be one thing at least if you had the hot trophy wife who was lazy but a girl well below average in looks and has an annoying 'mom' personality?

I almost feel like slapping him because in an alternative universe where he was single and had some access to game he would be pulling in beautiful girls but instead he decided to marry the one hometown girl that made the move on him and he's going to most likely die without ever having sex with a girl above a 5(unless they divorce which wouldn't shock me in the least bit).

Situations like this really reenforce you need to be careful as hell with who you settle with because the fairytale turns ugly quick. It also reenforces that a lot of suburban American women absolutely suck and you need to venture farther then your hometown many times to find someone quality enough to settle down with. If you can't find a good job in your hometown you need to leave and venture out. Same with women.

[NovaVirtu]

Reminds me of a quote I read recently:

"Marriage is like a boring dinner that lasts your whole life and had dessert at the beginning."

[Days of Broken Arrows]

I had a similar experience at Christmas, seeing my brother with his wife and kids.

In concept, his life seems nice: big house, wife and kids, etc. Yet my feelings about that changed after having to deal with the reality of his wine-guzzling, nasty-mouthed wife, who knows little but lectures everyone on everything, is sarcastic to him in public, and also tries to control everything, even down to what he and the kids eat -- on a holiday.

I went back to my condo and practically kissed the ground: "So now I remember why I wanted to be single! And my wife wasn't half the bitch his is! Think I'll stay up to 3 a.m. doing whatever the hell I want!!"

[Akula]

^^^ Had a similar experience with a relative and his wine-guzzling, prickly and unappreciative wife (who also seems to lash out at him at a moment's notice).

It's a combination of "modern" american wives not quite understanding how good they have it and also being taught too be too demanding, difficult and controlling. I don't know how a lot of these men can deal with it but I think many live in literal fear and just stick around for the kids even though they are effectively being emotionally abused by these women.

[Glaucon]

You have seen hell, be thankful you can leave, your friends can't...

[Veloce]

Don't mean to derail this but I think it's in a similar vein of thought.

Call me a scrooge, but I don't give two shits about the holidays. I never really have. Even getting presents as a kid, I always felt like I had to put on a show about how excited I was but I never really was. So every year that passes I get more and more apathetic.

The most holiday cheer I had this year was telling the AAA mechanic that installed a new battery in my car, "Happy Holidays." I meant it too. He came out the day after Christmas and did the job in about 10 minutes with a smile on his face.

I didn't call a single relative. Didn't buy a single present. Didn't engage in any stress whatsoever, and it felt great. To me, the holidays are a time when people stress the fuck out to buy shit they don't care about out of some obligation to other people, but their heart's not in it. Or they're stressing out by traveling and spending way too much time in crowded airports waiting for delayed flights. I know there are exceptions to this, but this is what I see.

I can't imagine a better way to spend the holidays than opting out of all that nonsense, doing a solid workout, cooking a great meal at home, and getting some writing done, or whatever it is you like to do.

[Foolsgo1d]

haha, this reinforces all of my observations around holidays like christmas.

- So whose family do you go to?
- Presents? Stressful time of the year for money but how much are you spending outside of social settings.

Now I am all for a guy having a relationship but there has to be a line here.

- Things can come to a head pretty quickly in relationships if they have been going a while and they're not all nice and smiles. I've seen a lot of drama bombs go off in the middle of Christmas and NYE is an absolute bloodbath

I just wouldn't have this for myself. An FWB or some single girl who needs a warm bed does it for me.

[John Galt2]

(12-27-2014 12:24 PM)The Wire Wrote:  

Our lives our completely different as I'm the 30 year old bachelor and hes the 30 year old father to a few kids.

Just wait 10 years until the wives start frivorcing your buddies. My one friend (41 years old) told me his wife, after years of barely touching him, finally wants a divorce. He is upset but its the best thing for him. But the worst part is that she told him about a week before Xmas and of course on Xmas day they show the obligatory "happy family!" photos on facebook. Made me sick. I mean, she just blew up your family (he has 2 kids) and you willingly post these happy family pics on facebook?? Pretty tough changing that beta mindset.

Re: DOBA, kissing the ground when you come home. Yep, do the same exact thing. Every. Single. Time.

[WanderingSoul]

A lot of my friends are in the same boat.

Fat, bitchy girlfriends and 1-2 bastard children running around sucking up all of the money and fun my friends could be having.

On the bright side, I'm fucking a Thai model with big fake tits. My friends don't really see that as being the bright side though.

[RIslander]

(12-27-2014 02:44 PM)Veloce Wrote:  

Don't mean to derail this but I think it's in a similar vein of thought.

Call me a scrooge, but I don't give two shits about the holidays. I never really have. Even getting presents as a kid, I always felt like I had to put on a show about how excited I was but I never really was. So every year that passes I get more and more apathetic.

The most holiday cheer I had this year was telling the AAA mechanic that installed a new battery in my car, "Happy Holidays." I meant it too. He came out the day after Christmas and did the job in about 10 minutes with a smile on his face.

I didn't call a single relative. Didn't buy a single present. Didn't engage in any stress whatsoever, and it felt great. To me, the holidays are a time when people stress the fuck out to buy shit they don't care about out of some obligation to other people, but their heart's not in it. Or they're stressing out by traveling and spending way too much time in crowded airports waiting for delayed flights. I know there are exceptions to this, but this is what I see.

I can't imagine a better way to spend the holidays than opting out of all that nonsense, doing a solid workout, cooking a great meal at home, and getting some writing done, or whatever it is you like to do.

Found a photo of Veloce getting some writing done:



Jokes aside, I enjoy spending time with my family but other than that I agree with you 100%.

[Jura]

In the same vein, I had a "chance" during the holidays to catch in action the feminine, youthful and joyful energy that used to characterize women. Unfortunately, none of it was directed towards the men present. The target? F'ing cats of course! How depressing having to watch women of all age smiling, laughing and petting a ball of fur together when the great men that share their lives can't get half of that. I couldn't wait to get back home.

[Duke Castile]

Veloce - I'm going to challenge you to really connect to what family you have left. Nothing in the way of some emotional breakdown. But call your family and just ask about their lives and tell them you were thinking of them. They will appreciate it more than the AAA mechanic.

[Old Fritz]

(12-27-2014 02:44 PM)Veloce Wrote:  

Don't mean to derail this but I think it's in a similar vein of thought.

Call me a scrooge, but I don't give two shits about the holidays. I never really have. Even getting presents as a kid, I always felt like I had to put on a show about how excited I was but I never really was. So every year that passes I get more and more apathetic.

The most holiday cheer I had this year was telling the AAA mechanic that installed a new battery in my car, "Happy Holidays." I meant it too. He came out the day after Christmas and did the job in about 10 minutes with a smile on his face.

I didn't call a single relative. Didn't buy a single present. Didn't engage in any stress whatsoever, and it felt great. To me, the holidays are a time when people stress the fuck out to buy shit they don't care about out of some obligation to other people, but their heart's not in it. Or they're stressing out by traveling and spending way too much time in crowded airports waiting for delayed flights. I know there are exceptions to this, but this is what I see.

I can't imagine a better way to spend the holidays than opting out of all that nonsense, doing a solid workout, cooking a great meal at home, and getting some writing done, or whatever it is you like to do.

I can relate to this so well. This is why I can't wait until I move out of my home.

[Lucky]

I have friends even younger, mid-twenties, who have fat, bitchy wives and multiple kids. I've seen these wives put their husbands down in public with sarcastic comments and look around at others with stupid grins on their faces seeking approval.

When I spend time with them it's just depressing because it turns into them telling me all about their horrible married lives; shopping for lamps, the kid's head start school, the wife who's "looking for a job but right now I babysit sometimes." And they wonder why I turn down their invitations.

Some friends have confessed to me that they hide in the bathroom to jerk off to porn on their smart phones just to get away from their nagging wives.

It frightens me to even think about living that sort of life.

[alexdagr81]

These dudes are cowards, can't even stand up to their wives

[monster]

That's the path your friend chose. You chose your path.

There's no point in comparing paths and feeling depressed/superior/whatever.

Your path is not necessarily better than your friends path and vice-versa. In the end we all die and nothing really matters except that you did the best you could.

You should, however, be respectful for the path your friend chose and be happy for him and his family wherever they are in life. They are the ones who after all invited you over to share dinner with them.

[monster]

(12-27-2014 02:44 PM)Veloce Wrote:  

The most holiday cheer I had this year was telling the AAA mechanic that installed a new battery in my car, "Happy Holidays."

Not to derail, but you may find this video helpful for next time

[The Lizard of Oz]

(12-27-2014 05:18 PM)alexdagr81 Wrote:  

These dudes are cowards, can't even stand up to their wives

This is harsh but true.

Women are what they are and they will always go as far as they can get away with. But men have a choice and it is their weakness, and indeed, cowardice, that allows things to proceed the way they do.

I do not believe that women have fundamentally changed at all. Their animal nature goes very deep and it's the same it's always been. But it's the weakness and cowardice of men -- however understandable and excusable, for it is very difficult for a normal man to resist the dominant social conventions -- that allows women to be the intolerable harpies they always long to be.

It is not as if this is something unique to our time -- plenty of men at all times have been effectively controlled by their wives, with only a little more lip service paid to appearances in periods where social conventions differed. But it has certainly gone farther along these lines than at any other time, and it's not a pretty sight.

(12-27-2014 05:45 PM)monster Wrote:  

Your path is not necessarily better than your friends path and vice-versa. In the end we all die and nothing really matters except that you did the best you could.

You should, however, be respectful for the path your friend chose and be happy for him and his family wherever they are in life. They are the ones who after all invited you over to share dinner with them.

Nope. Some paths are better than others. "In the end we all die" is a meaningless truism that adds nothing.

There can be sympathy and even understanding for a man who lets his wife be a worthless shrew that he slaves for. But there is nothing to respect about that.

[Samseau]

I have some married friends and all of them are very happy with their decisions. Their wives aren't cunts either, thank god. Many men get lucky. None of the wives are stunners, but they get stable sex and a legit family. Although it may all come crashing down in a divorce someday (probably yes for most) they at least get to enjoy their time now.

Be happy when they are happy and be a good friend. You know what's best for yourself, and you can offer advice to your friends, but if they really want something (even if it's risky) then wish them the best. Why get hung up about it?

Holidays are one of my favorite times of the year.

[monster]

(12-27-2014 05:49 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

Nope. Some paths are better than others. "In the end we all die" is a meaningless truism that adds nothing.

There can be sympathy and even understanding for a man who lets his wife be a worthless shrew that he slaves for. But there is nothing to respect about that.

You're right. There's nothing to respect about that. But I don't think it's completely fair to be so critical of it either. His friend is grown man and choose whatever the hell he wants to do, so if that's what he chose...so be it.

But it's cruel to graciously accept an invitation into another's home for dinner and call him a friend but then snicker behind his back about all the poor choices he's made just to feel a sense of superiority.

[The Lizard of Oz]

(12-27-2014 05:53 PM)monster Wrote:  

(12-27-2014 05:49 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

Nope. Some paths are better than others. "In the end we all die" is a meaningless truism that adds nothing.

There can be sympathy and even understanding for a man who lets his wife be a worthless shrew that he slaves for. But there is nothing to respect about that.

You're right. There's nothing to respect about that. But I don't think it's completely fair to be so critical of it either. His friend is grown man and choose whatever the hell he wants to do, so if that's what he chose...so be it.

But it's cruel to graciously accept an invitation into another's home for dinner and call him a friend but then snicker behind his back about all the poor choices he's made just to feel a sense of superiority.

I don't see much snickering in guys' posts. More like "there but for the grace of God go I".

Just because you've accepted an invitation to a friend's house does not mean you have thereby suspended your judgement and have no thoughts and feelings about what you see. And there is nothing wrong about sharing these thoughts on a forum of like-minded men.

A happy and well run family is a thing of real excellence and is something to celebrate; but a marriage in which the woman is a bitch and the man is a slave who is under her heel is a lamentable, and all too common, occurrence. There is nothing wrong with deploring the latter when you see it, especially if the man happens to be someone you care about.

[Menace]

Women have not changed, nor has the institution of marriage. I recommend everyone read H.L. Mencken's book, "In Defense of Women," which was written over 60 years ago. But for the language, you'd swear you were reading some RVF blog posts.

Divorce laws have changed, however. So the sword of ruin hangs above every man, and the tilt of society leans towards women.

Every time I go over to some married people's house they ask or encourage me to get married. It's like a virus, and they want to infect me. Well I have already had that experience, and you want me to do it again so I can join your cult? No. Fuck no.

Men have become weak. Or maybe they have always been weak? Something about even living with a woman that weakens a man. But a woman can only do what a man lets her. Men are elephants chained by the wisps of words from women. I think this has always been the case, it is their natural talent.

I know of a few marriages that are proper (my parents are one, and a former boss is another). But the vast majority are woman above man.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

(12-27-2014 06:01 PM)Menace Wrote:  

Women have not changed, nor has the institution of marriage. I recommend every read H.L. Mencken's book, "On Women."

Divorce laws have changed, however. So the sword of ruin hangs above every man, and the tilt of society leans towards women.

Every time I go over to some married people's house they ask or encourage me to get married. It's like a virus, and they want to infect me. Well I have already had that experience, and you want me to do it again so I can join your cult? No. Fuck no.

Men have become weak. Or maybe they have always been weak? Something about even living with a woman that weakens a man. But a woman can only do what a man lets her. Men are elephants chained by the wisps of words from women. I think this has always been the case, it is their natural talent.

I know of a few marriages that are proper (my parents are one, and a former boss is another). But the vast majority are woman above man.

H.L. Mencken's book was called "In Defense of Women." Are you sure you didn't mean Arthur Schopenhauer's essay "On Women?" That the one where he compares them to children and the one Heartiste and various manosphere people quote all the time.

Here is a link to the whole essay. This is the kind of essay that would have been taught in college in the '60s, but would come with a trigger warning or be banned completely now.

Some priceless quotes:

"With girls, Nature has had in view what is called in a dramatic sense a “striking effect,” for she endows them for a few years with a richness of beauty and a, fulness of charm at the expense of the rest of their lives..."

"The nobler and more perfect a thing is, the later and slower is it in reaching maturity. Man reaches the maturity of his reasoning and mental faculties scarcely before he is eight-and-twenty; woman when she is eighteen; but hers is reason of very narrow limitations."

"It is because women’s reasoning powers are weaker that they show more sympathy for the unfortunate than men, and consequently take a kindlier interest in them. On the other hand, women are inferior to men in matters of justice, honesty, and conscientiousness. Again, because their reasoning faculty is weak, things clearly visible and real, and belonging to the present, exercise a power over them which is rarely counteracted by abstract thoughts..."

"It is only the man whose intellect is clouded by his sexual instinct that could give that stunted, narrow-shouldered, broad-hipped, and short-legged race the name of the fair sex..."

"Nothing different can be expected of women if it is borne in mind that the most eminent of the whole sex have never accomplished anything in the fine arts that is really great, genuine, and original, or given to the world any kind of work of permanent value."

Help!! I can't stop quoting Schopenhauer. Everyone, just read the essay.

[Irish]

Same experience for me, I returned to my home city for xmas and almost can't be bothered seeing my old buddies again cos its so depressing. Plus one old school friend in particular his girlfriend INSISTS on coming along whenever we meet up so she can control what conversation her man can have with the free single bachelor who has spent the last 2 years tearing up Asia.

I also have other 'friends' who have settled and shacked themselves up with a B- chick but absolutely insist on giving me a lecture on my lifestyle. I'm not sure if any of you guys experience the same phenomenon? I mean, I look at them and think to myself 'Holy good fuck thank God I am not you buddy' but naturally just smile and try and act interested when talking about their job, mortgaged house, fat ass wife who has just quit work to look after their newborn etc. I may hint at the fun I've been having over the year with travelling and women, but I don't ram it down their throat.

But they just seem to take it upon themselves to try and lecture me on 'what I am doing with my life' like they are bursting to talk about it. "When are you going to settle down Irish?", "I don't mean to have a go at you but there's more to life than going around chasing women". They obviously caveat it with 'only having my best intentions at heart', but it's plain to see the jealousy raging in their eyes and they're needing to try and take you down a couple of pegs to make their ego feel slighly better. I've given up arguing back, I just agree with them and just try get off the subject so it doesn't end up stinking out one of the rare get togethers we get (cos his GF/wife only allows him out once in a blue moon).

One friend in particular who just cannot stop himself from circling back to the subject of 'fixing' my lifestyle and insisting I should settle down actually uses this phrase word for word when describing his girlfriend: "ok, she isn't the greatest. But..." Yeesh.

It also seems to be the more horrible the wife and the more slapped around the house the friend is, the more likely he is to get up in my face with the whole 'settling down' chat.

Dunno if anyone has noticed the same shit when returning home for the holidays and meeting up with old school and uni buddies...? (ie Some have a real hardon for wanting to discuss whats wrong with your lifestyle)

[The Lizard of Oz]

(12-27-2014 06:01 PM)Menace Wrote:  

Men have become weak. Or maybe they have always been weak? Something about even living with a woman that weakens a man. But a woman can only do what a man lets her. Men are elephants chained by the wisps of words from women. I think this has always been the case, it is their natural talent.

I know of a few marriages that are proper (my parents are one, and a former boss is another). But the vast majority are woman above man.

Yes, it has always been the case to a large extent, but it's also more extreme now than before. Divorce laws are one reason, but a larger reason is the general social and ideological climate.

Normal men have always been ignorant and confused about the nature of women, but at least they used to have a more reasonable idea about their role and status as the "fair" or "weaker" sex with fundamentally different tasks and responsibilities. Now they are still as confused as ever about female nature, but in addition they have bought into ludicrous lies about their role and status as equals in every regard. This has resulted in a perfect storm of confusion leading to weakness and cowardice.