[Vigo_the_Carpathian]

(10-06-2015 09:52 AM)thirty-six Wrote:  

I'd steer clear of paying for any online course. Here's my advice to any beginner who wants to get started in copywriting: Make a website, write some very nicely designed (get a graphic designer to do the art/layout) spec pieces that have strong/catchy "concept" for the popular industries, and network.

There's no real "right" way to break into the business. I know of guys who have used 36's method to great success. I know of guys who have cold-called their way into gigs. I know guys who have booked their first gigs based on ads on Warrior Forum, and guys who work the freelance sites.

For me, the key to the course/mentorships I took were the confidence they gave me to go out and solicit clients. When I first started copywriting, I had zero contacts and a few books to guide me. I found the paid stuff pretty edifying--I still even go back to the materials from my mentor every now-and-then when I hit a brick wall.

That's not to say the mentorship route is for everyone--it's pretty expensive when you're starting out, if nothing else. But you're going to have to invest either time or money to get "up to speed." I figured if I invested money up front, it would boost my rates and thus be a good investment down the road. I was proven right. But it's definitely possible to use the Halbert method or read a bunch of books to get there...I just don't think many guys are deep down willing to put in the effort.

And it's not like classes/mentorships don't require effort, either--there are regular homework assignments for both, at least for the helpful ones. But you'll have someone who knows what he's talking about to steer you in the right direction, cut you off if you're not on the right track.

One other thing to consider--essentially, becoming a copywriter requires becoming a graduate-level psychology student. Not in the "chick who doesn't know what she wants to do so she regurgitates a lot of the professor's psycho-babble bullshit" sense, either--we're generally talking taking a red-pill view of the world, examining a demographic, and selling them on what they want to hear.

You can learn this through sheer brute force repetition and examination, like Gary Halbert's method. Sometimes it helps to have someone with experience to help guide you through helpful triggers and structure, among other things. Again, to each his own.

Long-winded way of saying I preferred the class/mentor route, but if you're willing to put in the work, the Halbert/self-study method is equally valid. All depends on how you learn.

-Vigo

[CleanSlate]

(10-06-2015 11:57 PM)Vigo_the_Carpathian Wrote:  

There's no real "right" way to break into the business. I know of guys who have used 36's method to great success. I know of guys who have cold-called their way into gigs. I know guys who have booked their first gigs based on ads on Warrior Forum, and guys who work the freelance sites.

It's better to have several irons in the fire than to focus on only one avenue in getting business.

This means going through your personal contact list of family and friends, cold calling, working the freelance sites, building a following using twitter, etc.

To get valuable experience in copywriting, you should also create your own product, its website, and write the landing page yourself. Monitor traffic, do A/B testing, switch out the headlines, see what works better for you. This can teach you just as much, if not MORE than a $300 intensive course in copywriting.

I'll say one thing about the freelance sites, though. It's extremely difficult to get that first client if you have no reviews. You could offer to work for free saying that you're new to the site but you have expertise in whatever job posting. Or have a friend on the same site give you work.

Personally, I've been taking an all-of-the-above approach, not only for writing, but also for coding. The only thing I didn't do is drop $300 on an expensive course in copywriting because there is too much free material you can scour off the net.

[thirty-six]

Portfolio school is another route, if you have the time, money, and dedication. I know big time copywriters who swear by it. It's probably the surest way to get your work in front of people in the advertising industry.

[jake1720]

cult of copy facebook group is where a few people I know got started.

[Drexel Scott]

This is a really great post--it's exactly what I'm learning at the moment. I learned Product Creation from Eben Pagan, Headlines and Copy from him as well, and at the moment I am delving into Traffic Blackbook 2.0 to learn how to pull money out of Facebook and other Paid Traffic venues.

I took the Product Creation stuff first, and went a little product-happy...these last 10 months, I have created 4 Udemy video courses and published 3 books for the Kindle. I have slowly been learning the copywriting and marketing to actually see big bucks from that, and so I plan on spending this next year honing my sales funnel and really dialing this down.

My biggest IM Sticking Point is entrepreneurial ADD, and now it's kind of hard to choose one particular product to focus on. Funny; a year ago I didn't know I had any creative powers, and now I find myself needing to reign them in and get back to the pragmatic stuff.

Not where I want to be yet, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and it looks like it's full of dollar signs.

Again..great post!

[Goldin Boy]

(10-09-2015 08:42 PM)Drexel Scott Wrote:  

This is a really great post--it's exactly what I'm learning at the moment. I learned Product Creation from Eben Pagan, Headlines and Copy from him as well, and at the moment I am delving into Traffic Blackbook 2.0 to learn how to pull money out of Facebook and other Paid Traffic venues.

I took the Product Creation stuff first, and went a little product-happy...these last 10 months, I have created 4 Udemy video courses and published 3 books for the Kindle. I have slowly been learning the copywriting and marketing to actually see big bucks from that, and so I plan on spending this next year honing my sales funnel and really dialing this down.

My biggest IM Sticking Point is entrepreneurial ADD, and now it's kind of hard to choose one particular product to focus on. Funny; a year ago I didn't know I had any creative powers, and now I find myself needing to reign them in and get back to the pragmatic stuff.

Not where I want to be yet, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and it looks like it's full of dollar signs.

Again..great post!

Eben Pagan aka David Deangelo, the pua who created the Double Your Dating courses. I heard he retired from pua but didn't know he was teaching marketing stuff now.

To be honest your post is a bit vague and just feels like effusive praise: Can you be more specific about what you liked about the course and what you learned from it? Is it all audio, written exercises, or is it a live seminar? Thanks.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

I am waiting and waiting for this invitation to migrate my Elance profile to Upwork, but it never comes. My account is prompting me to check the "My jobs" screen in order to find an alternative invite, but there is nothing there either. My ticket to Elance hasn't been answered for several days.

What am I missing? How do I finally migrate to that new platform?

[Libertas]

I'm bumping this thread.

I've been reading, learning, and experimenting on my own blog and with my book for a couple of years and I want to get started on this "for real."

How would I go about it? Should I start small with the freelance sites like Fiverr, build up a portfolio from there, and then go on, etc.?

[kirdiesel]

I gotta read this one again when I have time... lots of demand for it over here in Germany.

[puckerman]

This is something I considered many years ago. Then I never followed through with it. I wish I had as I look back now.

This is a job you can do anywhere, after all. If I was getting copywriting gigs, I could go live somewhere cheap. Can you live in a foreign country and still do copywriting for American marketers?

And now for the most important question--will I have to write spam? I am all for legitimate marketing. I hate spam and really have no interest in profitting from it.

[Libertas]

Spam is largely an email thing, I think. Users are particularly sensitive of what they read in their inboxes. You have to do email marketing extremely delicately. Usually I try to add value first and build relationships with my list. I haven't even marketed a product there yet.

What I'm trying to do now as a practice run is rewrite the blurb copy for my book on Amazon. This month sales haven't been good. Last month sales were pretty good. But what I've found over a year is that a lot of people have been clicking onto the book from my blog, but the sales don't reflect that, which tells me the blurb copy can be improved.

Does anyone have good examples of sales letters they've done? I'd like this thread to be a kind of A/B test for my own ideas. I have one version done but not up yet. I'm reading Cialdini's Pre-Suasion right now and I'm trying to take that approach here.

[sterlingarcher]

(12-02-2014 02:59 PM)Vigo_the_Carpathian Wrote:  

What you don't want to do is market to clients, B.S. your way into a gig before you're ready, totally bomb it, and develop a bad rep. That's why I invested so much time in reading, taking courses, the mentorship, portfolio development, etc. before I started marketing myself to clients.

I was planning to take a on a couple of jobs from Fiverr/Upwork at next to nothing, just to practice and learn the copywriting principles.

I am reading everything I can find on copwriting, and have done a couple of online courses, but know from experience that I learn best through doing, and figure I may as well get paid something if I can. Also it will compound time to bucks.

I'll do a good job, they'll get value ++, and I'll still wait until I am ready to take on full jobs under my professional name/brand, so its win-win?

That would be a mistake?


[Also, to any aspiring copywriters out there who are 3 score plus, like me, I read yesterday that David Ogilvy was 39 before he wrote his first ad.]

[sterlingarcher]

I'm working through the Michael Masterson 'AWAI Fast Start for Six Figure Copywriting' at the moment. I also just read the Bordon Letters by [Carlson?].

Both those have a lot of copywriting gold, but are from a past era and concern copywriting for Direct Mail sales letters. So far as I'm aware that industry is dead?

Obviously a lot of the skills cross-over to email sales letters and online sales pages, but digital marketing is an art in itself, and one can't be effective without the other.

I guess what I'm asking is;

- am I wasting time (to some extent) studying older copywriting material,
- can anyone recommend great materials for modern era copywriting,
- do I need to become a good digital marketing consultant in addition to copywriter, or can you sell copywriting services in isolation?

Maybe this is the wrong forum for these questions, but still....

[CleanSlate]

I can answer 2 of your 3 questions off hand.

1. It’s fine to study older material as long as you look for the underlying principles of human psychology when it comes to selling — those still are the same today. Technology changes, people don’t. Some authors have updated their editions to include digital marketing, though.

2. You should do both consulting and copywriting, as well as web design. That way you can take on more turnkey projects.

[TooFineAPoint]

Modern copy (in terms of emails): Ben Settle is good. Sign up for his list; he emails every day so you'll get a lot of examples. Hold on to the free pdf he gives you once you sign up, because while it may not seem helpful at first, it's like a Rosetta Stone to understand what he is doing in his constant emails.

Like CleanSlate, I think it's a great idea to learn from past greats. Copy their letters out by hand. Find 1 or 2 "gurus" whose reputation has stood the test of time, and whose particular voice resonates with you (for instance, as great as Joe Sugarman is, I just don't jive with his voice and trying to apply some of his stuff messed up the start of some of my sales letters / emails -- totally my fault, not his -- but then when I started listening more to John Carlton I sort of course-corrected).

All the greats are essentially teaching the same lessons, because there are not a lot of lessons to teach. After that it's up to you to find your own most-interesting and most-reaction-inducing voice, find a few markets where you can apply it to make money, and then set out to write a whole hell of a lot and test test test.

[sterlingarcher]

Thanks for the comments/recommendations.

I'm really getting into this. Reading everything I can find, hand copying sales letters, watching YT interviews...

I watched a good interview with John Carlton the other day (Confessions of Marketing Rebel with Tony Robbins). Truly great.

However, it got me thinking; If this is formuliac, and great copywriters are out there teaching the formula to anyone, where's the money?

I guess maybe it's like any craft; it's simple, but it takes someone special to make something special, and they get paid? There's maybe also an aspect of executives with huge marketing budgets contracting the top guys (who can charge huge rates) because the risk of not getting a great result outweighs the benefit of saving company cash?

So it's all about getting into the top bracket. Winner takes all?

[dosequis]

I like this thread I found today. Some great stuff in here for me. I will definitely look into some of the books and learn more about persuasion because I think it will be really valuable for my own business and with my goals in entrepreneurship.

I also think a shared interest among the men here is human psychology and behaviour, most here have studied game. That's subject in itself is very fascinating and I can see the appeal in working as a copywriter where you get to test these things out and see what works and what doesn't and what you can actually do with text and photos to make people take action and spend their money. WHILE at the same time being location independent and can choose your own working schedule.

One thing with money is that it gives you more freedom in life. Now as an engineer, I'm stuck here in my boring city and can't choose my own working schedule. It could be well worth it to earn less money but to have that freedom that copywriters have.

[tonysoprano]

In my opinion, if you're hand copying sales letters you should absolutely reconsider that approach. I started copywriting about a month and a half ago simply by reading a couple of copywriting books and then practicing my own style. Key word there is my own style. Not Gary Halbert's, not anyone else's. Apply the basic techniques but make the writing your own.

Every day I wrote something different: about pages, commercials, blog posts, headlines, anything I could think of. With that practice, I put together a portfolio of samples and started looking for clients right away. You may have to start cheap with this approach but it's worth it for the experience and testimonials. Overdeliver with these clients and you're practically guaranteed a great testimonial if you ask.

This experience will then lead to more lucrative opportunities. Now I have a couple of successful jobs under my belt and just landed a $25/hr client which is just as much as I make at my 9-5.

The plan moving forward is to save up for a couple more months, continue freelancing on the side, niche down a bit more, then quit my job and move somewhere with a low COL where I can tackle this full-time.

Just get started. If you're a good writer as it is and have a solid grasp of copywriting fundamentals, you're severely underestimating your ability to help people who are clueless in this department. And there are a lot of them, believe me.

[Beyond Borders]

^ I like that you took action - good on you.

But guys going through the process of copying letters word for word and internalizing on a micro and macro level how it's really done are aiming to build a very substantial copywriting skill that will land them sales letter jobs at $3000, $5000, $10,000, and way up from there depending on how good you get, especially if you get into the royalties. It's a whole different ball game than grinding out words for $25 an hour.

I mean, not to put you on the spot, but that rate and "lucrative" should really not even be mentioned in the same paragraph.

Yes, copying word for word is a tedious method, but the greatest copywriters of all time would all agree it's the best way to learn, and there are many best-selling authors that built their writing skills in a similar fashion. Mimicry is a very natural method for learning just about anything. And because you are just a different person with your own personality, language, and set of experiences than the writers you mimic, you will develop your own style and voice by default. And then as you grow confident and competent, you'll have a natural tendency to experiment and try new things.

So I honestly wouldn't overthink that aspect of the learning process if I were you.

To be clear, I'm not saying that you're not offering a needed service to your clients or that it's not a decent option for getting started in the freelancing game, especially if you're keen to get going quick. I pretty much did it your way myself earlier on and started clearing $100 per hour fairly quickly. I've also done sales pages for $5K, though, and I'll tell you right now, once you get out there doing that sort of thing, you'll really wish you'd studied sales pages more closely. Because it's very skilled work, and you need confidence you're actually producing something that will make your clients money.

Of course, you can always spend a little time copying successful pages in your spare time while you're running your little freelance biz - then you get the best of both learning methods while putting the money in your pocket.

As a side note, it sounds like you're just getting the ball rolling, but my advice to you would be to double your prices as soon as your schedule fills up with more work than you can handle. Then do it again when you fill your pipeline at the new rate. Even a new writer with decent chops should be aiming to average about $50 an hour as soon as possible, and that just as a starting point while they learn.

First off, this type of mental work is very draining, and running a full-time schedule of nothing but writing will never be realistic for the long-term. So the amount of quality work you can produce on an ongoing basis is already in pretty finite supply. Just from an entreprenurial perspective, that means you better command a damned decent price for your production hours.

Then you factor in the time it takes you to market and communicate with clients, as well as the cost and time of admin shit, and you can see how that $25 an hour shrinks rather quickly. That's not even considering the taxes, retirement, insurance, and other expenses you'll want to think about if you really get serious about your business.

So keep at it, but definitely make getting those rates up a main focus early on. People will pay higher rates if you're producing good stuff and are a pleasure to do business with - believe that.

It also helps to get comfortable with bidding jobs a flat rate, so if you're not doing that yet, it might just be a matter of throwing yourself out there and getting used to that approach. Like anything, you'll get better at estimating jobs the more you do it. And if you're working with smaller business owners who don't quite understand the trade yet, it just feels a lot more natural than telling them you expect to make a hundred bucks an hour.

[sterlingarcher]

I've spent a LOT of time hand copying sales letters, but am reading a Carlton book at the moment where he advises 'get in it up to your neck as soon as possible'.

I like the idea of doing some live projects whilst continuing to study. Also the idea of cash)

Do you guys have any more advice on getting initial clients remotely?

I have a gig post on Fiver, but have had zero bites. (The offer doesn't even come up when I search through the dozens of pages for 'copywriter')

Also, any tips regarding finding a niche? It seems to me that developing a niche is the way to go, as for any super competitive market? And as market research is such a crucial element, it makes sense to become an expert in one area?

Build on interest/past experience?

[Bushido]

^ On platforms like Fiverr and Upwork you need to get some friends to buy your gig to get you started. That's the unofficial reality.

[tonysoprano]

(04-25-2018 11:26 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

^ I like that you took action - good on you.

But guys going through the process of copying letters word for word and internalizing on a micro and macro level how it's really done are aiming to build a very substantial copywriting skill that will land them sales letter jobs at $3000, $5000, $10,000, and way up from there depending on how good you get, especially if you get into the royalties. It's a whole different ball game than grinding out words for $25 an hour.

I mean, not to put you on the spot, but that rate and "lucrative" should really not even be mentioned in the same paragraph.

Yes, copying word for word is a tedious method, but the greatest copywriters of all time would all agree it's the best way to learn, and there are many best-selling authors that built their writing skills in a similar fashion. Mimicry is a very natural method for learning just about anything. And because you are just a different person with your own personality, language, and set of experiences than the writers you mimic, you will develop your own style and voice by default. And then as you grow confident and competent, you'll have a natural tendency to experiment and try new things.

So I honestly wouldn't overthink that aspect of the learning process if I were you.

To be clear, I'm not saying that you're not offering a needed service to your clients or that it's not a decent option for getting started in the freelancing game, especially if you're keen to get going quick. I pretty much did it your way myself earlier on and started clearing $100 per hour fairly quickly. I've also done sales pages for $5K, though, and I'll tell you right now, once you get out there doing that sort of thing, you'll really wish you'd studied sales pages more closely. Because it's very skilled work, and you need confidence you're actually producing something that will make your clients money.

Of course, you can always spend a little time copying successful pages in your spare time while you're running your little freelance biz - then you get the best of both learning methods while putting the money in your pocket.

As a side note, it sounds like you're just getting the ball rolling, but my advice to you would be to double your prices as soon as your schedule fills up with more work than you can handle. Then do it again when you fill your pipeline at the new rate. Even a new writer with decent chops should be aiming to average about $50 an hour as soon as possible, and that just as a starting point while they learn.

First off, this type of mental work is very draining, and running a full-time schedule of nothing but writing will never be realistic for the long-term. So the amount of quality work you can produce on an ongoing basis is already in pretty finite supply. Just from an entreprenurial perspective, that means you better command a damned decent price for your production hours.

Then you factor in the time it takes you to market and communicate with clients, as well as the cost and time of admin shit, and you can see how that $25 an hour shrinks rather quickly. That's not even considering the taxes, retirement, insurance, and other expenses you'll want to think about if you really get serious about your business.

So keep at it, but definitely make getting those rates up a main focus early on. People will pay higher rates if you're producing good stuff and are a pleasure to do business with - believe that.

It also helps to get comfortable with bidding jobs a flat rate, so if you're not doing that yet, it might just be a matter of throwing yourself out there and getting used to that approach. Like anything, you'll get better at estimating jobs the more you do it. And if you're working with smaller business owners who don't quite understand the trade yet, it just feels a lot more natural than telling them you expect to make a hundred bucks an hour.

Totally see where you're coming from and you provided some solid advice. The point I was trying to hammer down was not to make hand copying sales letters an excuse for not getting started.

I will definitely look into studying tried and true copy on a deeper level once I gain some experience. At the moment I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to that, as most of my time is spent prospecting or writing.

Touching upon what you said about the mental aspect of this work, what is your opinion on getting started with freelance copywriting while working a full time job? It's the number one thing I've been struggling with - getting home from work mentally drained and having trouble dedicating a lot of time to both prospecting and completing client work.

Part of me wants to drop everything and just go for this full time, but I don't know if I am ready for that yet.

[redbeard]

Popping in to say that John Carlton’s Kick-Ass Copywriting Secrets of a Marketing Rebel is the greatest copywriting book out there.

https://marketingrebel.com/kick-ass-copy...ing-rebel/

[sterlingarcher]

So I've read the books, done a couple of courses, handcopied some letters, put up a website, made some self sales copy, boosted some Facebook and bites...zero.

Would anyone who has some copywriting experience mind taking a look at my site?

Must be going wrong somewhere...

[Marmite]

^ How many potential clients have you contacted?