[Vacancier Permanent]

I was reading the other thread on "Should Men Have Kids When Younger" http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-33366.html when I
saw the following comment by Glaucon:

Quote:

Glaucon Wrote:
Kids are the #1 cause of poverty.

First of all, I'm not picking on you Glaucon at all, quiet the opposite!

I found that comment very interesting and I thought I'd share my thoughts on that from a different perspective based on my extensive travels around the world and having been raised in a traditional family while living in so called progressive countries most of my life.

I can see how having kids can be linked to poverty at least to those in the lower income earning brackets in the Western world. However, in most of other cultures outside of the western world, kids are considered as assets and investments. Kids are viewed as a retirement vehicle since they are expected to take care of their elderly parents who are no longer able to work to support themselves in their golden age. I can speak of that from a first hand experience as I am from such a culture.

A very popular comparison to having kids in these cultures is that of planting a tree. You plant a tree in order to enjoy from it, whether it be to relax under its shade when it's hot or from the fruits it will bear for the rest of your life and when you need it the most, in your golden age. Exactly how having kids has been viewed in much of the world since the dawn of humanity. And still is largely outside of the western world.

Is that right or fair? I don't know nor do I care. However, what's the alternative to that approach? In the progressive western world, you would work all your life, save for your retirement, your self entitled and spoilt rotten kids would be out of the house as soon as they can and you'd be pretty much left to rot alone in some retirement home. That is provided you've beaten the very high odds against you of escaping being raped in court by a divorce or frivorce as the new term is and you've still got some money left and your kids haven't been turned against you by their disgruntled and greedy, lazy mother.

I don't know about you, but I'd much rather be taken care of by own loving family and kids in the good old fashion traditional way than being alone, broke and treated as dirt in a retirement home. Yes I'm very traditional but if there's anything we can learn from the myriads of examples of how good, honest men are being fucked over by the women in their lives and the system, is that being a "progressive" may not be as healthy and sane as they appear or they'd want you to believe to be. It's not a fluke that it's tradition that has made the world function since the beginning of Time.

I don't see anything wrong with having kids. I may well have my own with the right woman. But choose your location very carefully. In the western world, it can be a very expensive thing, both in terms of time and cost. A recent study revealed that the cost of raising a kid from the time he/she is born till he/she graduates from college can be anywhere from 500K to 750K. This figure is mainly for North America. Quite a staggering figure!

In other parts of the world, it can be drastically lower than that, not to mention, more fulfilling since your chances of finding a real feminine woman who not only knows but embraces with open arms what it means to be a woman are infinitely higher than in the feminist infested Western world and even more so in North America. Add to that the fact that laws are more favourable or at least more saner than in NA, that makes the whole experience of parenthood and fatherhood a much more appealing and fulfilling endeavour than in the Western Anglosphere world where you and I as a man, have less rights than animals. Literally.

The old adage holds true here: "Location, Location, Location". Select the right country with sane laws and healthy gender roles that follow the order of Mother Nature, not that of some brainwashed insane feminists and or progressive faggots and beta hipsters where the government and laws modus operandi in general is to fuck over the men in favour of the women as in the so called progressive western world.

In a few years, I personally am looking forward to having my own kids and to raise them the way I see fit, that is boys to be very manly even macho and girls to be girly and uber feminine with a traditional woman in a traditional environment. It sure as hell won't be with a western woman nor in the Anglosphere!

While I do enjoy Latinas and Latin America, and we all in here know that Russians and Eastern European women are not only some of THE most beautiful in the world but also very smart and brainy. However, my gut feeling is that Asia would be a much better overall destination for such a goal as it has all the required ingredients under one roof so to speak: traditional environment, sane laws, healthy relationships between the sexes, high quality of life and low cost of living, abundance and ease of attainability of high quality of beautiful, sweet, kind, caring, loving, feminine, slim and traditional women with high morals and good values not to mention warm weather year round.

All in all, having kids with the wrong woman and or in the wrong location can surely lead to not only poverty but also ruining you financially, emotionally and mentally. However, the opposite is also very true. Building a family with a caring, loving, sweet, feminine woman in a sane environment can be extremely fulfilling and enjoyable. So proceed with caution guys and be wary of your environment.

[T and A Man]

I would assert havings kids is paramount to be honest.

If not, then your life is one of a consumer really, well that's how it would feel to me.

In the most basic terms, there is no such things as a successful species that doesn't want to breed. The most successful humans should have an urge to breed.

I do like what IKE was expressing about the Phils, and in response to 'giving your kid a fighting chance'

Now sure, it's a poverty ridden hole for the most part. But you can always get around that. Money provides options.

Quote:

"Building a family with a caring, loving, sweet, feminine woman in a sane environment can be extremely fulfilling and enjoyable."

A great part would be the constant experience of having numerous cousins (or even siblings if you returned to have more than one kid) in the constant care of grandparents and such.

A 5,6,8 bedroom house could probably amortise over the $250 per month he would send and house much of that family support system with things like sewerage and electricity. Lock of a small part of the house that is yours when you visit, get sex on tap off the Mrs, embrace the kids, then piss off to whereever it is to make more money.

Likewise, providing a one on one tutor of merit, and a passport to the western world, your kids would have a fighting chance.

[Kabal]

Children are not always causes of poverty ipso facto.

Low iQ happens to be correlated with low impulse control and high discount rates.

And what happens when people happen to have all three, the hydra of cognitive deficiency?

They will tend to be poor, and will tend to have unplanned children. Unplanned children can cause poverty, but it's also just a symptom of cognitive deficiencies.

This goes for within nations, and across nations. Those of you who travel much will notice how blase Dominican girls are with respect to having children out of wedlock and their national IQ--juxtaposed against that of, say, Taiwan.

Don't be afraid to have children, especially with the right woman. As long as you feed them and don't abuse them, your kids will turn out okay. Who you are and who the mother is matters more than any sort of tiger parenting.

Additive genetic variance explains >= 50% of variation in IQ in western nations, perhaps as high as 65%. The rest is measurement error, development noise, environment, and gene-environment interaction variation, etc. A lot of terms to squeeze into 35-50%...

[poutsara]

I think about this a lot. To have kids or not. If I choose to, it will be the main reason I ever get married. I think that I will.

I don't normally quote movies, but there is a quote from Troy that resonated with me, where Thetis tells Achilles:

Quote:

If you stay in Larissa, you will find peace. You will find a wonderful woman, and you will have sons and daughters, who will have children. And they'll all love you and remember your name. But when your children are dead, and their children after them, your name will be forgotten. But if you go to Troy, you will never come back...

The message for me here is "only your family will remember you when you are gone." And you know, it's true. I DO know a lot about my grand parents, even though I barely knew my grandfathers because they died when I was young. I knew where they lived, what the did, their personalities, how they lived, how and why they came to this country. I even know the music they listed to and danced to. I also know about my great grandparents and some of even their parents. I know because I made an effort to know, because they are mine. I have letters going back a hundred fifty years and more and I'm not going to forget anything. I got family trees going back even further. And I'm damn well going to teach my kids exactly where they come from and every detail that I know. There is nothing like blood as a bond and it is forever so long as we make it count.

What other legacy do we have? Some will be remembered for short term fame, some for political office, a few for science or literature. But so very few of us will. The rest of us, no matter what amazing things we do in our life, will only be truly remembered by our families that come after us and that is only if we are lucky, and only if we make that a priority.

[Collide]

For the past 3.8 billion years every one of my forbears on both sides miraculously continued to shape this genetic lineage which is now me, it seems devastating to consider the thought of putting a stop to this 3.8 billion year old unique cycle.

[Belize King]

I am 28 and wonder if I want or should have kids. I love my independence but I dont want to die alone. My grandmother and grandfather were great people. They brought us to America and gave us values. I want to be a great person but would I make a good father?

I found a great woman who would be a great mother. Do I want that now? Two years from now or five years? I dont know.

I have popped two women in my life. Both aborted. My life would probably be shit and I wouldnt have discovered Belize, Thailand, and Brazil with children. Now that I have I want to clock out of the States in two years.

[bacon]

Check out my ROK article for anyone interested in the benefits of avoiding fatherhood

[iknowexactly]

4 billion years of evolution, I figured this out one time but figure an average lifespan of 90 days for all the forebears from the amoebas to you (forget when sexual reproduction started), that comes out to how-many-zillion generations of critters not one of whom missed reproducing or you wouldn't exist--

..in the face of that evolutionary shaping momentum your musings about having kids would seem to have the most trivial of effects on whether or not you will actually have them.

--however I read gene research indicates that only 40% of males reproduced through history, against 80?% of females.

The way I think of it is-- you don't engage in the process of reproducing, you ARE the process of reproducing. Your thoughts on it are about as relevant as the wing tip lights are on an airplane to where it is going. However, 60% crash lol....

The Zens have the great phrase "looking for the horse while you are riding it."

Anyway by now it should be obvious aliens planted us here like shrubs, who can believe no one missed for 3.xz billion years.

[Vroom]

Not a day goes by when I don't look at, or think of, some childless guy and think "you lucky cunt - no responsibility, you can have all these fancy toys, party all night, travel the world etc etc"

But conversely, not a day goes by when I don't look at, or think of, my kids and think just how much I love them, and how empty and pointless my life would be without them.

[General Mayhem]

It would be a shame not to pass my genes along.

[Ziltoid]

Captain Capitalism has a lot of great articles on this subject, from the perspective of somebody who doesn't want children.

[Prophylaxis]

Men, I hate to say but unless we all decide to get a vasectomy, we don't have as much control as you think.

The kids will come when the woman decides. Being knocked up in the prime/start of her career (her most fertile years) is nothing more than an inconvenience now.

You're not going to find much quality in the Anglosphere, where you can have kids with a young quality woman with a good family, looks and character.

[cardguy]

No kids for me.

Ever.

I do wonder what will happen when I am an old fuck.

I am hoping I will get taken out with a massive heart attack around the age of seventy. And I make a point of being pretty unhealthy in order to meet that target.

A good death is an important part of a good life. That is a common belief in the east where people pray for a happy death. It is a way of thinking that is lost here in the west.

I have noticed that when people go into old person's homes - they lose their independence very quickly. As such - I hope that if I do my own shit and be independent everyday. Then my brain will never allow me to get to the stage where I am incapable of looking after myself. Use it or lose it.

And luckily shit is getting easier - particularly with the internet. And home deliveries for shopping. Of course - fi shit goes wrong I have a Plan B which I sometimes mull over:

http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.co.uk/...-plan.html

Anyway - I don't give a fuck about leaving a genetic legacy. If you are worried about that - become a sperm donor. And besides who gives a shit anyway. Einstein had five kids. Can you name any of them?

And besides - I am on the side of death and entropy when it comes to evolution - 99.99999999999% of all the people that have ever existed - no longer have any living descendents living today.

The same is true of the 99.9999999999999% of species which are now extinct.

We are alive - so we think evolution is about life and getting better with each generation.

But evolution is overwhelmingly about death. The occasional animal/species/person who makes it through to the next round is statistically negligible. And it means that 99.9999999% of you who are reading this and planning on having kids will soon have their genetic legacy wiped from the earth within a few generations.

But even that doesn't make no sense.

Me, RooshV, GManifesto, Teedub, IndianRaceTroll, Prince Charles and David Beckham share the same number of genes as I share with my great-great-great grandfather.

The gene pool for humanity is not that big. And after a few generations you have as many genes in common with a complete stranger as you do with a direct descendent who died a few generations ago.

Along similar lines - your surname is a very bad marker of who you are directly descended from.

Stephen Fry made this point in a way which is interesting and easy to understand:

http://youtu.be/OamQy8wc2XE?t=6m58s

Cardguy

PS Great photo from Bacon's article! http://www.returnofkings.com/17283/the-b...fatherhood

[samsamsam]

A question for those who do not want to have children. How was your upbringing/experience as a child?

I ask, because my experience looking back, was actually pretty good. I was a bit sheltered and maybe my kids won't be. But I am very grateful for my family.

Just wondering if any of you who don't want kids, is part of it just a fear of re-creating a bad childhood?

I know that being the greatest parents in the world don't guarantee good productive kids, either.

Just thinking obviously our own experience plays a big role in our desire or lack of desire to be fathers.

[Onto]

To have and raise a family is like being a God. You mold something great out of a heap of clay and if all goes well you get to see it flourish and take your principles forward through your life and into eternity after you die.

The Priest/Soul-Searcher takes a different path than that of the family man.

Which is the right one?

I think whether you search for God or emulate God there really is no difference between them.

[cardguy]

@samsamsam - I had a great childhood. But no kids for me. I think it is because I get stressed out if other people are occupying too much of my time. As such - I cannot sign over my life to the whole wife and kids thing.

[Vacancier Permanent]

Cardguy,
Would you say that not wanting kids has to do with being in a toxic environment with fucked up laws and even more fucked up women? I for one would never want to have a kid with a western woman nor build a family in a corrupted environment as the western/anglosphere world is. However, in a sane environment with sane and more male friendly laws, feminine women, who embrace their feminity, have values and good morals, then the experience is a drastically different one than one in the west.

Not to mention the fact that in these male friendly environment like in Asia, it's a man's world, where women are in fierce competition with each other for a good man. Deep down, they know and even expect you to have fun on the side as long as you're not stupid, that is do it in front of her. I've had this conversation with numerous people, both men and women in Asia and South America who have told me that. What really was eye opening to this world was what the women were saying: that as long as the man keeps her happy, that is providing her with a good standard of living, takes care of the kids financially, and he is discreet about his "side activities" are accepted and she will not make a big fuss out of it.

That's another positive factor that is not an option for men in the western world.

[cardguy]

No - it is a lot simpler for me.

I don't want a kid for the same reason I don't want a dog. Too much hassle.

The laws and so on don't help. But that doesn't play any role in my decision.

If raising a kid meant I had to forego reading even a single book - it wouldn't be worth it for me.

And of course - raising a kid would mean foregoing a lot more than just the time to read a single book.

I just enjoy chilling and doing my own thing. Another picture from Bacon's post on this subject speaks for me as well.



I am a really happy person with a great life. And I am not going to gamble that happiness on something that may make my life a little better - but from which ever angle I look at it would only make it worse.

The only reason I would want a kid would be to pay back my parents. Since I think the gift of grandchildren is the only gift of real value you can give your parents.

I have no ego and no sense of importance. As such I don;t give a fuck about leaving a legacy when I die. I think it is silly thinking like that which leads most men to having kids. And that is with those lucky enough to decide.

Most kids pop along when the woman decides it would be a good time to tell her partner she is pregnant and wants to keep the baby. The guy usually gets no say in the matter.

[samsamsam]

cardguy, thanks for sharing.

May I ask if you are an only child or have siblings? Just curious, I respect your decision not to want to have kids.

[Vacancier Permanent]

Fair enough Cardguy. I understand and respect your decision. I felt the same a few years ago, but with time and getting older, I'm seeing things that I did not when i was younger. Not saying you will too, but aging does make you see things differently.

Cheers.

[bacon]

@Samsamsam

I had objectively a good childhood so that doesnt influence my decision to not have kids. I actually enjoy kids but similar to cardguy the life changing element they bring makes me uninterested. On a similar note I love dogs but the responsibility/loss of freedom of having one makes it unlikely I will get one and at least with a dog if things dont work out you can always give it away. With kids your stuck with them in your life forever or at the very least for 18 years.

Also I dont have any of the desires other here post about leaving a genetic legacy. Its seems hard to believe that is the number one reason some men want to have kids rather than a love of children and deep desire to mold another human being into an adult.

Obviously there are some benefits to having children. But for me those benefits are much less than the benefits I get from not having them.

It surprises me more men are not open about not wanting kids as I actually think a large percentage of men really have little interest in being a father especially in the toxic environment being a father has become in the west. Fortunately, in the west men face very little stigma about remaining childless but in most of the world its seen as a rite of passage into manhood. Of course in those countries child support doesnt exist and a father/husband, not the state, is able to be the head of the household. Also kids are used as a retirement policy to take care of parents into old age in most of the world.

I would strongly encourage men who are not interested in having kids to get a vasectomy(but bank some sperm in the off chance you change your mind). For men who dont want kids the vasectomy really is the best thing you can do to put your mind at ease that you are never faced with the life changing implications of having children since accidents and faulty birth control lead to large numbers of babies being born.

[MrLemon]

All this intellectualizing about "having kids or not" is irrelevant.

The desire to have kids strikes people unexpededly. There is nothing rational about it. It's biological, not rational.

Mother Nature doesn't care what you say, how much money you have, or what you've written in your blog. Mother Nature owns you. When and if she decides you are going to procreate, you will do it.

And you will think that it was your idea.

Heh heh heh. As a parent, I will sit back and relish the moment that you finally succumb, and join me in exhaustion and poverty. When parenthood has sucked every ounce of life out of you, I will watch with dark satisfaction as your dried up husk is discarded in the dumpster of life. Your children *might* remember your sacrifice, or, they might be selfish shits who leave you abandoned in the nursing home.

Have a nice day.

[iknowexactly]

(03-25-2014 12:50 AM)MrLemon Wrote:  

All this intellectualizing about "having kids or not" is irrelevant.


Heh heh heh. As a parent, I will sit back and relish the moment that you finally succumb, and join me in exhaustion and poverty.

Could you offer your estimate of what percentage of the exhaustion/poverty is the result of being a so-called "GOOD" parent, which could include depending on cultural context completely exhausting yourself worrying about good health care, savings for college, etc, vs being a parent at all.

I met a LOT of women in the philippines that have some guys kid and the guy is materially doing zero, no money, no visits, no calls...

Then I see many parents in America that are just husks as you say, on a money treadmill, "nothing is too good for my kid" , "only the best will do" , expensive schools....

Both seem a bit crazy to me, although I do feel an obligation to provide food and health care and some guidance, I don't think being an exhausted drone is really a good example for a kid.

[Phoenux]

Fuck having kids! Everywhere I go I see parents with out of control kids, be they 6 months or 16 years old. Kids shit, scream, cry and drain both your soul and your bank account.

Credit to those who take the plunge, but I would honestly lose my shit with my kid(s) when they act up.

Call me selfish but I'd much rather live a better life, travel yearly, have money to invest in property and stocks and not have to stress if my teen daughter is fucking some older guy/on drugs/failing school etc. etc.

Just my opinion...

[Onto]

IKE, have you done research into the Family law of the Philippines and whether she can petition courts in the USA for cash? I've only done a small amount of research on it, and she definitely can't petition a US court without a signed affidavit from you admitting paternity or a DNA test. Even then, I don't know if a Pinay could go after a guy in the US.

I understand she's saying $250/month is fine, but a woman's mind changes with the weather.

I'm interested in possibly retiring and starting a family in the Philippines or Colombia. From the little amount I've read Colombia is better for men from a divorce/child support perspective, but like I said I don't know very much about this topic.