[Christian McQueen]

I'm curious as to RVFers take on this:

At what point does your fitness downplay your game?

Let's take Joe Smith as an example:

He started out weightlifting at 165lbs and 6' tall. He pulled girls on average but as he lifted his lay rate increased. When he hit 185lbs he had moderate toned muscle mass, but wasn't overtly big. Joe continued to lift and he eventually weighs 200lbs and is noticeable jacked.

The odd thing is, Joe now pulls less girls then when he was 185lbs, but more than when he was 165lbs.

Did Joe's focus on fitness decrease his game skills because more time was spent on fitness + a healthy lifestyle (I.e. Less drinking + late nights), or did he hit a point of diminishing returns when he passed 185lbs?

To take this to a personal level, I've noticed over the years that when I'm 185-190lbs and keep just a basic fitness routine I pull like mad, but as I increase in size to 200lbs, I get more of intimidated looks by girls and pull less.

TL;DR

Does getting bigger actually decrease your game past a certain point? Do girls eye fuck you more at a moderate size, but act more intimidated when you're bigger? There will always be girls who are into really jacked men, but perhaps it's my environment (in LA a lot of girls are not big on muscles).

Side Note: I'm aware that many guys work out for themselves solely as they should, but I'm asking purely within Game context and reactions you've received from girls.

[Sp5]

I have no idea, since I never got very jacked, but I'm curious as to other answers.

I've heard a few women make remarks of disapproval or disgust when seeing pro bodybuilders on TV or in pictures. I wonder if that's their true reaction or if they're really getting wet.

[WanderingSoul]

(01-30-2014 06:46 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

I have no idea, since I never got very jacked, but I'm curious as to other answers.

I've heard a few women make remarks of disapproval or disgust when seeing pro bodybuilders on TV or in pictures. I wonder if that's their true reaction or if they're really getting wet.

People always bring up the pro bodybuilder debate in threads like this, but that is far from the ideal physique. I don't think anyone on this form wants to look like that.

Brandon Carter has pretty much my ideal physique. He sums it up pretty good in this video too, funny too.

"I think that a guy having big muscles, is the equivalent of a girl having big titties."

About 8:15 he talks about bodybuilder dudes and fitness dudes in comparison.

"...the big ass 250lb bodybuilder. Cause that motherfucker has turned himself into a niche market. He specializes in chicks that like gorilla motherfuckers, but a lot of chicks don't like gorilla motherfuckers."

"Don't do it for the chicks man. Do it for yo got damn self. Don't do it for the chicks. Do it cause it builds your confidence. It builds your confidence up, and confidence will get you chicks. Confidence will get you girls more than anything. Working out gives you a certain self confidence. Like you accomplish somethin everyday."

As far as a point of diminishing returns? I'm not sure, I'm not there yet. I definitely get more positive attention now, from guys AND girls, now that you can tell I lift through my v neck. I could imagine there is a point of diminishing returns though. I think once you're fairly muscular and lean, you will hit that point where 10 more lbs of muscle might not get you more, or hotter, girls than say making more money, dressing better, or spending more time working on your game.

[Mage]

There could be several factors that make too much muscle unappealing in a man:

1.Labeling a guy as muscle freak. Some women may conclude that muscles is all this guy is about and that might be boring. This applies especially to hot girls who get a lot of attention and have developed a habit of classifying guys. Heavily muscled guys must still work on their game and have other hobbies.

2.Too much hypertrophy is unnatural and unhealthy. Women recognize this. Once a man enters the territory unachievable without steroids or synthol, those women who are not groupies of bodybuilding start liking this less.

3.Fear of stepping above her league. Not all women are as stupid as to throw themselves at every alpha guy they see. Most of them have a small sense of self preservation and they will shy away from guys they know they cannot make to commit even if they are attracted.

4. Fear of competing narcissism. Women want to be the flowers adored by others and they dislike if their man makes more heads turn then they themselves. This mostly apply to guys with good looks and skincare, but could also apply to muscled guys.

(01-30-2014 06:46 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

I have no idea, since I never got very jacked, but I'm curious as to other answers.

I've heard a few women make remarks of disapproval or disgust when seeing pro bodybuilders on TV or in pictures. I wonder if that's their true reaction or if they're really getting wet.

I believe women deny that they like muscled guys to appear more beta rewarding to extract more resources from men. Women always pretend that they like caring, birthdays remembering, flower giving guys with sense of humor, but really they do love muscles and other alpha qualities more then all that.

[Parlay44]

I've never been on that level but I assume it's hard to maintain. I feel like the more time you spend improving yourself physically the less time you spend improving yourself mentally. I'm a pretty witty and sharp guy but anytime I've spent working out long term I feel like my game suffered. Yes you get more looks and attention. I've even been approached outright. But at the same time I felt kind of self obsessed and dumb at the same time. It's hard to describe.

[Menace]

Does your game style stay the same when you get bigger? Probably does. You may have to soften it up and be more beta as a contrast to an otherwise intimidating physique. However, you pretty much answered your own question...there probably is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to attracting a wide segment of girls.

[WanderingSoul]

(01-30-2014 08:13 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

I've never been on that level but I assume it's hard to maintain. I feel like the more time you spend improving yourself physically the less time you spend improving yourself mentally. I'm a pretty witty and sharp guy but anytime I've spent working out long term I feel like my game suffered. Yes you get more looks and attention. I've even been approached outright. But at the same time I felt kind of self obsessed and dumb at the same time. It's hard to describe.

That's an excuse, and a bad one.

It really doesn't take much time to build a good physique, as far as hours per week or day. 3-6 hours in the gym per week is more than enough. It does take long term consistency though. People vastly overestimate the hours per week it takes to build a nice body.

How much time do you spend fucking off on the RVF each week? I'm sure you could find time to improve both physically and mentally if you wanted to.

[jariel]

(01-30-2014 07:20 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

"I think that a guy having big muscles, is the equivalent of a girl having big titties."

I posted this video here a couple of weeks ago, converted it to mp3, and listen to it while I work out.

Sluts are good.

[Parlay44]

(01-30-2014 08:34 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(01-30-2014 08:13 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

I've never been on that level but I assume it's hard to maintain. I feel like the more time you spend improving yourself physically the less time you spend improving yourself mentally. I'm a pretty witty and sharp guy but anytime I've spent working out long term I feel like my game suffered. Yes you get more looks and attention. I've even been approached outright. But at the same time I felt kind of self obsessed and dumb at the same time. It's hard to describe.

That's an excuse, and a bad one.

It really doesn't take much time to build a good physique, as far as hours per week or day. 3-6 hours in the gym per week is more than enough. It does take long term consistency though. People vastly overestimate the hours per week it takes to build a nice body.

How much time do you spend fucking off on the RVF each week? I'm sure you could find time to improve both physically and mentally if you wanted to.

Yeah I agree it's an excuse. I usually squeeze in the forum while I'm doing other things like waiting for the bus to or from work, loading new software or firmware at work. I multitask. Between work and commuting sometimes it ends up a 12 hour day. Then I have to unwind and make dinner. Next thing you know it's time to sleep. Working out requires dedicated blocks of time. I used to get up at 5am and jog for an hour. I don't like doing that in the cold though. Getting caught in a cold rain storm turns you off to it sometimes.

[blackglasses]

Yes but you don't have to worry if you're natural. I'm currently 6'2 207 11.5%bf. Larger than average but clothes for well on me. Just lift and enjoy it, you'll never get too big unless you take gear

[blackglasses]

I notice I get less girls than when I was 175. I was skinny back then. I thinks it's more so being obsessed with it rather than a specific size. Also someone mentioned women being insecure. I have had women told me that my physique makes them insecure

[Nascimento]

Unless I use some anabolic drug I don't think I can get big enough in terms of muscle to intimidate girls too much/lower my game performance.

Provided I stay <20% body fat, I think more will always be better for me in terms of muscle. However the more muscle, the more I think it would be important to maintain a lower-teen digit body fat.

Height might be a factor here, and I think this is different for guys that are taller, say 6' and above.

[scorpion]

I think this is more a function of McQueen operating so heavily in the party lifestyle. In that space girls can definitely be turned off by a guy who clearly prioritizes fitness over fun. So if they get the idea from your physique that you're more comfortable in the gym than in the club (which is where they'd rather be) then they probably get an inauthentic vibe and it kills your game a little. So if you're heavy into the nightclub/party scene, it's probably ideal to be in shape but not jacked, since most of your interactions will be with party girls who are more interested in hanging out with a fun guy (i.e. a guy who drinks, does drugs, isn't afraid to stay up all night) than a jacked one ("Sorry, I'm not drinking tonight, and I've got to leave early to be up at 6AM for the gym").

Of course, there are obvious exceptions: Spring Breaks, Vegas pool parties, Zyzz-style game, etc... but in general I'd say that over the long term you've got to choose between party game and fitness game, because they're basically two different lifestyles, which is why a jacked guy seems out of place at a club. Girls pick up on that inauthenticity and is reduces the effectiveness of his game. As with so many things about women, they probably don't even realize they are doing this. They just smell the incongruity in your frame (disciplined fitness guy in a hedonistic nightclub atmosphere) and it turns them off for reasons they can't explain.

[RockHard]

I think the key thing is BMI and not muscle mass. Chicks will respond to a 6 pack even if the guy sporting it couldn't bench bodyweight. Lots of powerlifters have great strength but they don't work on overall bodyweight and so they're not going to pull based on their body. There's a video of a guy squatting 1000 lbs raw which is really fucking impressive, but he's a pretty fat dude.

[RockHard]

(01-30-2014 10:20 AM)blackglasses Wrote:  

I notice I get less girls than when I was 175. I was skinny back then. I thinks it's more so being obsessed with it rather than a specific size. Also someone mentioned women being insecure. I have had women told me that my physique makes them insecure

In a way I find that weird. I was reading "Slow Getting Up" and the dude has a funny line in there, something like "being around big overmuscled NFL players is unnerving for human beings. Except for female human beings. Then it's nerving." But he's probably talking about being around football groupies and not women in general.

[WestIndianArchie]

They don't respond to six packs when there is a shirt over them. Roosh made that point.when he compared himself to VK. It's why the shirtless pic is such a big deal online

[WanderingSoul]

(01-30-2014 11:08 AM)RockHard Wrote:  

I think the key thing is BMI and not muscle mass. Chicks will respond to a 6 pack even if the guy sporting it couldn't bench bodyweight. Lots of powerlifters have great strength but they don't work on overall bodyweight and so they're not going to pull based on their body. There's a video of a guy squatting 1000 lbs raw which is really fucking impressive, but he's a pretty fat dude.

Why does it have to be one or the other on these threads? Why does a guy either have to be skinny with a 6 pack, or a big fat powerlifter or bodybuilder? Why can't a guy be lean and have muscle mass?

[FrenchCanadian]

Question for the tall guys, 6'2 & +
I'm a competitive bike rider, so I have very good lower body strength (thighs, calves, ass)
Im like 6'3 180lbs... I have a good cardio and I'm fit...
I'll admit never lifting, or working out on my upper body strength.
Therefore I don't have big biceps, triceps or shoulders/back
As a tall person, how necessary is it to your game?

I always felt I didn't need to go to the gym because I was already taller than most guys out there.
I always felt hitting the gym and beefing up was a small person thing.
Am I wrong ? A lot of my friends say I could become a monster if I worked out, because I already have great lower body strength but really, how good is that?

Insight would be appreciated, from tall players.

[soup]

This is an interesting question. Maybe there is an ideal balance for every guy. Maybe looking too jacked comes off as try-hard.

For some girls it's going to be very attractive. Aside from personal health, having big muscles seems like the redpill way of peacocking. Just like with the old peacocking, there might be a point at which too much can become overkill.

There's two types of ways I see having muscles being used in game:

Bare minimum: you have to built enough so that you physically present a strong frame. You want to look like you could hold your own in a bar fight ( think Hank Moody).

Then there is being jacked like crazy where your muscles are the lure. Someone like Good Looking Loser relies on his impressive physique as his awe factor.

Every guy should have some kind of awe factor.

Personally, I'm trying to work out more. I've always been skinny most of my life- not too athletic, and have relied on ther things to get laid, but I'm curious to get bigger. I don't know if I'll get hulk jacked but I definitely want to get more of the Hank Moody ottermode look at the very least. Especially because I'm losing my hair and need to compensate by building up another aspect of my physical appearance.

[662LetGo]

(01-30-2014 05:08 AM)Christian McQueen Wrote:  

I'm curious as to RVFers take on this:

At what point does your fitness downplay your game?

Let's take Joe Smith as an example:

He started out weightlifting at 165lbs and 6' tall. He pulled girls on average but as he lifted his lay rate increased. When he hit 185lbs he had moderate toned muscle mass, but wasn't overtly big. Joe continued to lift and he eventually weighs 200lbs and is noticeable jacked.

The odd thing is, Joe now pulls less girls then when he was 185lbs, but more than when he was 165lbs.

Did Joe's focus on fitness decrease his game skills because more time was spent on fitness + a healthy lifestyle (I.e. Less drinking + late nights), or did he hit a point of diminishing returns when he passed 185lbs?

To take this to a personal level, I've noticed over the years that when I'm 185-190lbs and keep just a basic fitness routine I pull like mad, but as I increase in size to 200lbs, I get more of intimidated looks by girls and pull less.

TL;DR

Does getting bigger actually decrease your game past a certain point? Do girls eye fuck you more at a moderate size, but act more intimidated when you're bigger? There will always be girls who are into really jacked men, but perhaps it's my environment (in LA a lot of girls are not big on muscles).

Side Note: I'm aware that many guys work out for themselves solely as they should, but I'm asking purely within Game context and reactions you've received from girls.

Sounds like when you hit the the 200lb mark, some of the females automatically blow themselves out because they feel you're "unattainable." In their head, it's like: "What would a guy like that see in me? I better talk to this 135 pound hipster twink, he's more controllable & on my level."

I think Woodhaven had some kind of attainability + value formula that used to be popular..

[DVY]

I'd have to say yes- when you start using copious amounts of gear and start looking disproportionate.

Over 3/4 of American males (all ages) are overweight or obese.

Extrapolating that backwards and giving it a conservative assumption, 40% of males (20-30 age) are overweight or worse. At least 75% of those don't regularly exercise (think hipsters) or do frou frou BS. That leaves 10% of males who regularly step into the gym. Only a miniscule % of those actually get big.

For most humans, its near physically impossible to get "too big".

I think its more a function of not encountering cool meatheads (1st impressions) than actual reflection of diminishing point of return. They aren't necessary closed to it, just never been in a situation which they liked that type of guy.

From my personal experience, spitting a good rap > looks anyday of the week. Big guys often get lazy from their physique. Its a crutch for many.

[Kieran]

I don't think it's got anything to do with girls seeing big guys as unattainable (look how they throw themselves at celebrities etc). Some girls simply don't like how it looks. Others do.

[soup]

DVY can you elaborate on why most humans can't get big?

[bodmon]

well if you're lean, tall and natty you're never gonna look truly "jacked" anyway

[Kid Strangelove]

With all things being equal, there is no point of diminishing returns IMO. But All things are never equal.

With me, for example - I am Endomorph as fuck. If I was a homosexual, I'd be a superstar in the bear community. I need to work out constantly to not be fat as fatass and my nutrition needs to be on point. So when I'm in real "fitness" mode I don't go out nearly as much to make the numbers game work for me, I feel every beer, every piece of shitty food is a kick in the nuts to my overall fitness level.

HOWEVER, the fitter I get, the better girls react to me, I also find myself trying less and less hard game wise.

for most people, no matter how fit you are, you still need to game. Your body is just one of your many positives that you present to a girl when talking to her.
However with freaky bodybuilder types - I get the feeling that they can get laid just off their body alone, because some girls really dig that shit. Remember that one girl quivering and biting her lip when a bodybuilder was standing next to her? Yeah, that shit.

So yeah - big ass muscles are just one positive taken to an extreme, it might not be everyones thing, but people that like it REALLY like it. Plus, like you guys said - you cant see a guys abs through a shirt. But you can tell a bodybuilder is a bodybuilder from a distance