[Yams]

There have been studies that show that women ideally prefer a guy with 12% bodyfat (no more, no less) with a shoulder to waist ratio of 1.64 to 1 (the golden ratio). Beyond those numbers there is a large diminishing law of returns in regards to pure asthetics to the opposite sex.

[WanderingSoul]

(01-30-2014 12:13 PM)Yams Wrote:  

There have been studies that show that women ideally prefer a guy with 12% bodyfat (no more, no less) with a shoulder to waist ratio of 1.64 to 1 (the golden ratio). Beyond those numbers there is a large diminishing law of returns in regards to pure asthetics to the opposite sex.

Source?

[Yams]

(01-30-2014 12:16 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(01-30-2014 12:13 PM)Yams Wrote:  

There have been studies that show that women ideally prefer a guy with 12% bodyfat (no more, no less) with a shoulder to waist ratio of 1.64 to 1 (the golden ratio). Beyond those numbers there is a large diminishing law of returns in regards to pure asthetics to the opposite sex.

Source?

Articles which links to the sources

12% body fat link

Shoulder to waist link

[RockHard]

(01-30-2014 11:17 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(01-30-2014 11:08 AM)RockHard Wrote:  

I think the key thing is BMI and not muscle mass. Chicks will respond to a 6 pack even if the guy sporting it couldn't bench bodyweight. Lots of powerlifters have great strength but they don't work on overall bodyweight and so they're not going to pull based on their body. There's a video of a guy squatting 1000 lbs raw which is really fucking impressive, but he's a pretty fat dude.

Why does it have to be one or the other on these threads? Why does a guy either have to be skinny with a 6 pack, or a big fat powerlifter or bodybuilder? Why can't a guy be lean and have muscle mass?

Rio, didn't mean to put it that way. I fell into the trap of offering extremes. I think that it's better to have decent muscle mass and low BMI. I'm in a situation where I'm showing skinny / fat, too much blubber around the gut - I'm reasonably strong and have good aerobic capacity, but I don't project that just by appearance.

You have a good question overall - if I hit my fitness goals this year maybe I'll find out the answer!

[WanderingSoul]

(01-30-2014 12:22 PM)Yams Wrote:  

(01-30-2014 12:16 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(01-30-2014 12:13 PM)Yams Wrote:  

There have been studies that show that women ideally prefer a guy with 12% bodyfat (no more, no less) with a shoulder to waist ratio of 1.64 to 1 (the golden ratio). Beyond those numbers there is a large diminishing law of returns in regards to pure asthetics to the opposite sex.

Source?

Articles which links to the sources

12% body fat link

Shoulder to waist link

I don't know which study you are referring to, that article is thousands of words long.

Here are the authors....they actually sell a weight training program for $197 lol.

[Giovonny]

Anything can have a "diminishing return" if it creates an imbalance in another area...

This is a matter of taste, some girls like big guys, other girls like huge guys, other girl prefer fit guys, some girls even like thin guys.

If you get yourself to 300 pounds of solid muscle, you will attract certain girls that are into huge men, but, at the same time, you will un-atttact certain girls who prefer a more slim man.

Maybe its best to find a healthy balance that will attract the most of amount of women.

I will use a term that comes straight from competitive bodybuilding -- "SYMMETRY". There is a certain balance and proportion that is visually attractive to "most" people. Artists are aware of this, painters, sculptors, architects, etc. I sometimes refer to the "Golden Ratio".

Your height, width, and the length of your arms and legs will determine how much muscle mass is symmetical amd proportional for your body. .

This is Visual Symmetry.

Of course, girls like muscles so its good to error on the side of increased muscle.

But, if you get pro bodybuilder big, many girls will think you are too big.

Just don't spend so much time on your muscles that you ignore your social and financial skills.

Your body is a piece of the puzzle, its not the whole puzzle.

[DVY]

@Soup- theres ton of studies done on this. There is a def link to muscle to hormonal profile. Thats also why people's muscles decrease w/age aka muscle atrophy. The gist is that steroids up-swing that balance so your body "thinks" it can support more than naturally.

Thats why good body often equals good hormones.

MikeCF knows more about this than me, but I have a good general base knowledge in biochemistry, biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, physiology and pharmacology.

Your hormonal balance changes as you age and that also changes w/various factors in your life- sleep, nutition, exercise, stress, etc etc. I know for a fact that I had crazy cortisol spikes in school. I had all the symptoms- irritability, problems sleeping, exhaustion, muscle atrophy (lost almost 40 lbs over 3 years), decreased impulse control, etc etc.

This is also why chemo drugs/retrovirals (HIV meds) has such a destructive impact on the body. It literally flips the endocrine systems inside out. Cancer and AIDs are basically natural cells have been subverted and modified to have superiority over normal cells. THey feed off the body and the endocrine system up-regulates them. The solution is often to cut down the hormones. This kills both "bad cells" and "good cells", but more bad than good. Thats why they feel like shit all the time... <---Hypersimplifed explanation but the gist is that endocrine system is hugely important.

[soup]

I used to get IBS when I had a girlfriend for five years.

[Bilboswaggins]

Having been skinny, athletic and also big, I can conclude that each specific body type attracted different types and different amounts of girls, with the 'athletic' shape being the most popular. Being too skinny means you're not going to be taken seriously and being too big makes you look kind of slow and takes away the 'functionality' in my opinion. However, most guys will never obtain a physique that is too big simply because of too much muscle mass, a natural is bound to look great provided he has a decent bodyfat percentage ( up to 12% ). So, when we're talking about a natural in our context, it's more of a question of body fat and shoulder/waist ratio as Yams pointed out. As long as you're natural and not above 12%, don't worry about being too muscular.

That said, I have found my sweet spot hovering at 170-185 pounds at 6 feet at sub 10% body fat. For a fairly accurate calculation of your ideal weight at 8-10% body fat, simply take -100 from your height and you'll get the number in kilos.

All of the above is purely physiological, and it's far from the whole equation of attracting a female. Think about your game type for a second - do you like to attract by having a beast body and going caveman on the dancefloor or by having a witty and clever mind that pushes the right buttons during conversation? Obviously, these two can't be fully separated but what Im trying to say is, mold your body according to your surroundings and the type of game that you want to play. That said, clothes work wonders in either upbringing or downplaying your physique. While attending a hipster venue, wearing v-necks and showing off arms tend to work against my goals but in a club situation, they often do the whole work for me. Ideally, I personally would like to have a physique that can play both parts and in my opinion, very low body fat is the only option to do so.

[iknowexactly]

(01-30-2014 11:28 AM)FrenchCanadian Wrote:  

Question for the tall guys, 6'2 & +
I'm a competitive bike rider, so I have very good lower body strength (thighs, calves, ass)
Im like 6'3 180lbs... I have a good cardio and I'm fit...

Am I wrong ? A lot of my friends say I could become a monster if I worked out, because I already have great lower body strength but really, how good is that?

Insight would be appreciated, from tall players.

I'm not tall but if you do road racing over a certain upper body strength level will hurt your climbing. It's just unnecessary weight. Armstrong at his peak had only moderate size biceps etc.

I've seen some track sprinters who were pretty jacked however.

[Aliblahba]

Symmetry and being proportionate are important. If you guys want to know what women like, just ask them. Fuck them proper, then take them out now again for drinks, and put them through the paces. I learned a lot early on this way. Turn them traitor and milk them for information. The alcohol is important cause it'll lower inhibitions and makes her run her suck muscle more and keep it real. Once you bang a chick, then dig deep into her head, you'll start to see things in in a whole different light.

[samsamsam]

(01-30-2014 01:56 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

I've seen some track sprinters who were pretty jacked however.

Not sure if this is true, but during highschool football, coach emphasized all muscle groups, obviously. But he mentioned that upper body strength impacted speed, something about pulling arms faster etc.

Just found this article. http://www.livestrong.com/article/546032...er-bodies/

Quote:

Arms and the Sprint
Sprinters use powerful arm drives to help propel them out of the blocks and start in the desired low posture. As they reach full speed, their arms and legs work in concert to sustain the proper rhythm. A powerful arm drive can help sprinters maintain their proper stride as fatigue sets in. Lactic acid builds in the arms as it does in the legs, which is why sprinters must condition their arms for racing.

[ComebackKid]

(01-30-2014 12:41 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(01-30-2014 12:22 PM)Yams Wrote:  

(01-30-2014 12:16 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(01-30-2014 12:13 PM)Yams Wrote:  

There have been studies that show that women ideally prefer a guy with 12% bodyfat (no more, no less) with a shoulder to waist ratio of 1.64 to 1 (the golden ratio). Beyond those numbers there is a large diminishing law of returns in regards to pure asthetics to the opposite sex.

Source?

Articles which links to the sources

12% body fat link

Shoulder to waist link

I don't know which study you are referring to, that article is thousands of words long.

Here are the authors....they actually sell a weight training program for $197 lol.

Who would pay $197 to these clowns?

[vinman]

When I was 24 I was about 245 pounds. I wasn't ripped, but I had good definition. When I started going above 235 pounds I attracted older women, fatties, and chicks that were into getting manhandled. I was serving in the Army in Hawaii so I got to crush a lot of Japanese, and Filipino broads. A lot of women in my age group and younger liked looking at me, and feeling up the chest and arms, but weren't interested in fucking.

[Aliblahba]

(01-30-2014 03:03 PM)ComebackKid Wrote:  

Who would pay $197 to these clowns?
[/quote]

Hipsters living on mommy and daddy's credit card.

[ChocolateCockOfZeus]

I'm 6'3, with naturally lean, long muscles. My weight has been all over the place over the years. Back during the football days I was clocking in at 265lbs. That would always be the first thing a girl would comment on at that time, how huge I was. This was back before 8th graders looking like Lebron was the norm. I was one of the 3 biggest non-fat guys in my school.

Then came the wrestling days were I started out weighting 235lbs, then went down to 205lbs, then eventually hit 188lbs. I was ripped, very little body fat, just solid muscle. This is where girls started approaching me like "damn!" lifting my shirt up, and calling me sexy. It was less "hey, right this way, come see the giant" and more of them being physically attracted to me.

Then came the heavy weight lifting days, where I jumped back up to 205lbs. Very little fat. This was my first time experiencing just how thirsty girls could get. I was walking through the gym one day and I heard these loud screams and when I looked back, these two girls were staring at me pointing. I had a class with one of them later on that day. She stood up in the middle of the full classroom and announced to the class how sexy my body was. That was the period where my confidence reached a high point, and you couldn't get me to put a shirt on. It was either shirtless, or wife beater. I got the hardest stares and the easiest numbers. This carried on through early college.

Then I started working at this busy restaurant and I cut the little fat I had, being on my feet all day. I was sitting at 195lbs. This is where the magic happened. Girls couldn't keep their eyes or hands off me. I was slaying pussy and constantly getting complimented on my body from men and women. I honestly wish I would've traveled during this time. Shit would've been glorious. Unfortunately, I had 0 game, and got by on looks and personality.

Then came the second long term relationship coming to an end. Fuck me. I dropped down to 165lbs after that breakup. No eating, no lifting, no sleeping, just working and getting the occasional notch from new girls at the restaurant who heard stories about me and wanted to see what all the hype was about. No more girls drooling over my body. Hell, I even think there was an HIV rumor going around about me because of the extreme sudden weight loss. Whenever a new girl would see me with my shirt off at this point the reaction was like "oh, you're in good shape." lol but the light, the thirst was no longer there.

So I started developing game and learning the ways of the warrior. Now I'm sitting at 175lbs, and lifting my way back up to the promise land; 195lbs. Fuck, eating right, and getting enough food for a daily intake of 3500+ calories costs.

With all that said, the best responses of gotten to my body were when I was 195lbs. Think Anderson Silva with more muscle tone.

[Christian McQueen]

Interesting perspectives guys.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Menace]

BTW, is there a chart for "ideal" weight with a given height? Like say to be in that weight zone/look that ChocolateCock (feels weird to type that) is talking about. I realize there is margin for debate but useful guide would be nice.

[Yams]

I have a decent frame but I never worried about bodyfat % and usually hovered around 16% and 17% when I was at my biggest and strongest. Hell I lived by Starting Strength for some time but then I realized no girl ever gave a damn about my glutes or hamstrings. I decided to do one big cut all the way to 13% in which i lost 20lbs and all of sudden people are telling me how buff I am getting. Overall I lost strength and muscle mass with the cut but that didn't matter because my reduced waistline really made my upper torso standout.

It may be hard for women to see a six pack if you have them but they can immediately spot a guy who has broad shoulders with no gut.

[peterfoo22]

I would totally agree...with most of the sentiment on here.

I think there is point where you just get too big..I am 5'9 and weighed about 150 to 165 in weight and that' my ideal weight.

I kept hearing thoughts on how girls liked guys with huge muscles like bodybuilder style. So I found a lifting program and got up to 200 lbs by taking supplements eating a ton.

It was just too hard to maintain that lifestyle of constantly eating protein and supplements I was not a pro body builder and was not getting paid for it so it was definitely not worth it. Then I started to get into kettlebells and crossfit and got more of a lean look.

For whatever reason I got way more attention when I had the lean and toned look. The first problem was you have to wear sizes that are too big and makes you look fatter. Secondly in your face you get a more defined in the cheekbones if you're thinner and lastly its just more sustainable and functional to be at healthy weight with good muscle tone.

Hope that helps!

[Mentavious]

(01-30-2014 01:56 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(01-30-2014 11:28 AM)FrenchCanadian Wrote:  

Question for the tall guys, 6'2 & +
I'm a competitive bike rider, so I have very good lower body strength (thighs, calves, ass)
Im like 6'3 180lbs... I have a good cardio and I'm fit...

Am I wrong ? A lot of my friends say I could become a monster if I worked out, because I already have great lower body strength but really, how good is that?

Insight would be appreciated, from tall players.

I'm not tall but if you do road racing over a certain upper body strength level will hurt your climbing. It's just unnecessary weight. Armstrong at his peak had only moderate size biceps etc.


I've seen some track sprinters who were pretty jacked however.

I ran track in high school and for a bit in college as a sprinter but I am also tall.

Obviously legs are important but if you don't have the power in your arms to drive them through the "zone" then your not going to create enough turnover in your legs.
Your body is a symmetrical machine so if you have a weak upper body don't except your lower body to compensate for it. Sprinters are jacked because every muscle in your body works when your running a 200 meter dash.

Im 6'3" but even though I am "strong" in the gym you wouldn't be able to see it on me. You will def see results putting on 20lbs of muscle though.

Just remember the bros marvel over a very muscular physique than most woman do.

[AneroidOcean]

Symmetry is pretty important, most women could care less if you have HUGE muscles or you just look muscular with a reasonable body fat percentage. Abs help a lot as does a nice V (you know, the one leading to your dick).

I play a lot of beach volleyball and I've seen a LOT of different physiques. The guys who get laid the most are the ones with game. The ones with game AND muscular (not huge) with abs/v going on do slightly better. The really huge guys can get laid if they've got game, but you'd be surprised how many attract girls and then after they've opened their mouths the girls are way less impressed with their huge muscles.

As others have said, real skinny hipster guys and huge muscled dudes are a niche. Right around the middle is where you can attract the widest range of girls.

The last time I hung out with a few of the huge muscled dudes they all chose to hang out at a different hot tub than I was going to with the girls. Then I invited them through one of the girls to come over to my place for a dance party/pre-party, they still didn't come. Then when we walked to the bar (and I got in our party of 8 after waiting maybe 15 seconds), they still didn't come. Finally they showed, waited in line texting the girls instead of me (I would've got them in), then came in to join us on the dance floor with totally surprised looks on their faces that all the hot girls were dancing with my buddy and I.

They fought like thirsty dogs over the hot girls with utter shit game, found out after I'd left that one girl took a taxi home (like 45 minute drive), the other two crashed at my buddy's, and the other girl I'd just started dating so she came with me. On my way off the dance floor the 6-packed dude that's like 6'3" or taller caught me and said, "Wow, good job man, wow" about the girl I was walking out with. I just told him "right on bud" and kept walking.

No reason to tell them if they'd just not be thirsty and go to where the girls are and deal with the guy running the logistics and the preparty instead of the distracted girls, they'd be in a lot, lot better position.

I've got no significant biceps, my chest is not really defined, and my stomach muscles are just recognizable under the layer of fat. I've got good legs and decent shoulders from volleyball and a nice tan. The girl I'm dating said I was strong but cuddly.

All these guys are at least as good looking as I am and super jacked down to reasonable muscle with low body fat/cut. I'm working out now because I want a better body. I know that it will help with girls, but it doesn't help that much all on it's own.

My vote: Have an "athletic" body and put on some additional muscle if you want and if it makes sense for your frame. Don't skimp on your game no matter what.

[Aliblahba]

(01-30-2014 04:29 PM)Menace Wrote:  

BTW, is there a chart for "ideal" weight with a given height? Like say to be in that weight zone/look that ChocolateCock (feels weird to type that) is talking about. I realize there is margin for debate but useful guide would be nice.

This is good for the 35+ crowd. The older you get the more you'll have to work to compete with younger men, but by now your experience alone should keep you above the waterline.




   




   

Chances are when your workout emphasizes strength, speed, and combat, your physique will be close enough. Size don't mean shit. Be functional, and your confidence level will rise through the ceiling, getting exponential puss over body alone.



Overdoing it on size means more hurdles when shopping for clothes. When your biceps are stretching out a ringer t, you will be in the zone. Remember, today's fit is simply not being fat. Asian dudes are skinny, Euro dudes are skinny, and NA men are looking like:


   


It doesn't take much these days to impress women. Even back in the day, from 18-22 I got a lions share by looking like this learning not to fuck it up:



   


[img]images/attachtypes/unknown.gif[/img]  marines-training drills running airforce army navy physical tests green berets special ops drill sgt flag pullups chinup (Size: 28.29 KB / Downloads: 797)

Fit but not bulk.

[Ternarydemonite]

Most women dislike a big, bodybuilde type. For many women, a ripped, toned but not large muscles body is ideal.Such body is attractive to men since it entails a lagre amount of testosterone and strenght.

That is the reason why men like Rambo and Predator movies, while such are generally boring to women.

[rudebwoy]

The girls who generally like guys with muscles are the girls I like to fuck, they generally feel comfortable about their own bodies.
The girls that claim they don't like guys with muscles are usually the girls I don't want.
Most dudes are out of shape, so like everything else in life I want to be the top percentage. I have been jacked and I found I didn't have to say much, girls pawed at me.
Right now I am aiming for a leaner look "ripped" and for me it is alot harder to achieve.
185 llbs is "average" weight, once you get over 200llbs and you are not fat then you are in big boy land.