[Nemencine]

LOWER BACK PAIN.

UPPER BACK HIP STIFFNESS/STRAIN.

INTENSE QUADRICEPS MUSCLE STIFFNESS.

I have been reading this thread and looking through some youtube videos.

Running uphill makes the pain worse.(where i tilt forward too much)
Overarching my back backwards hurts my spine.(i was a trained, competitive gymnast at one point). X-ray shows degenerative lower spine.
My right knee is also fucked. One or two permanently broken/severed toe bones.

Just sitting makes the pain go away.
Lying on my back makes the pain go away.

I am going to see a chiropractor.

However, i want to see if i can channel some of the experience here.

i have also been looking through some youtube videos of people that are chiropractors. can anybody vouch for any of the content of these youtube videos?

here is another one:

what of this:

and of course, this:

I completely skipped over videos of people that are not chiropractors....or trained professionals.

ALL solid/intelligent COMMENTS and instructions guides will be welcome. If you have no personal experience in this matter or you are not a trained professional, i will prefer you do not offer any advice. respectfully.
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[JacsR]

One big thing that can help with lower back pain is to not sleep on your stomach. Sleep on your side, or back, but not on your stomach. I would also suggest getting a foam roller.

I had chronic lower back pain for 5 years (from playing sports), and I went to see some Chinese massage and acupuncturist after not being satisfied with treatment from physios and chiros. 2 months of treatment, once a week, with some old guy who barely spoke English and my back felt better than it ever had. I went back to him when I sprained my ankle, after 2 treatments my ankle was back to 100%.

Just some food for thought, from my experience.

[Hades]

Lower back pain is often caused by tight hip flexors, never learning to properly activate the lumbar spine, and weak abdominals/core or never having learned how to activate the core while lifting.

The way to fix it is to loosen up the hip flexors, learn to activate the lumbar spine, and strengthen the abdominals. If the lower back doesn't have a strong girdle of abdominal muscle activate while a heavy load is lifted then the risk of an injury occurring is high.

That still doesn't always address the source, sometimes back pain is caused by rounded shoulders and mild kyphosis. Hunching of the upper back causes the pelvis to tilt, which might result in continual lumbar misalignment and back pain. What can help here is one of many of my posts about increasing shoulder flexibility through shoulder dislocations and doing a rowing movement, so there's enough upper back muscle mass that the shoulders are continually rounded back.

[Nemencine]

@JACSR. thanks. i will look into that.

@ HADES. Thanks. I will try and dig through your posts and extract valuable data.

To both of you, thank you.

respectfully,

[gfly]

Yoga. Not crazy stand on your head yoga, fat housewife yoga. I had chronic lower back pain, had a pt routine to treat it which worked ok. Yoga did the same thing, better. Back hasn't bothered me in awhile(knock on wood)and I have been slacking from pt and yoga, all I can really tell you is that it can be treated and go away.

[kosko]

Maybe check if its not a nerve issue first?

If it is not a serious pushing of a muscle onto a column then working on movements and exercises to strengthen the area will be the next thing to do. The flex-ors and lumbar as noted above will be key areas for you to work on. Your lower back is a foundation area of the body/core if it is giving you issues then your foundation is not balanced, think of it like if your house foundation is off; being proactive about it now early will help you long term to keep your 'house' from dipping and getting worse.

[Parlay44]

I second Yoga. I basic beginner class will do you wonders. It's harder than it looks. You'll be a big sweaty mess after a 90 minute session but you'll feel great.

[speakeasy]

I have a herniated disc between L4/5. Shit is debilitating. I'm in some pain pretty much ALL the time. I've just learned to work around it and try to still have an active life while learning to tolerate higher ambient pain levels. Standing on my feet for long period of times can start sending sharp nerve-ending pain down my leg as my bulging disc pushes into my spinal cord. I don't know if this is something that will eventually heal on its own or what but I've been battling it off and on for 4 years now though it didn't become acute until last autumn.

[Prophylaxis]

Hey Nemecine,

Is the pain predominantly on 1 side of the back? Does the pain radiate down your leg?

When you had scans as a kid, did it show any stress fractures of the back? (These are common in gymnasts)

Do these movements hurt?




- (perform both sides)

As a side note - be very wary of self-treating through youtube videos. Back pain is multifactorial and while certain people will swear 'x exercise' cures all back pain, it may make another's back pain worse.

[Nemencine]

@gfly and parlay44:

I see. on yoga. i have a hard time picturing myself doing yoga. I am 6ft. Bulky shoulders from all those years of gymnastics....But...where my back is concern, i will have to keep an open mind....obviously, i cannot do deadlift with my back condition...let me see what kinds of yoga you think is best for my injuries. i will make a note and ask my chiropractor.

if you can post youtube videos...that will be great. I need to have an OPEN MIND all the way on this.

thank you, sirs. I wasnt even thinking about yoga before.


@kosko.

there are some nerve issue. But notwithstanding i will definitely look into core strengthening. I don't see the downside to more core strengthening. the lower back takes a lot of pounding if you were a gymnast. It gets abused. your ankles. I mean, gymnastic ends up giving you strong, massive shoulders and build your tolerance for pain....but damn....some of my toes are completely fractured and severed; my ankles beaten to shreds; my bloody right knee is fucked. my right thumb permanently twisted.
My football(soccer injuries) were nothing compare to my gymnastic injuries. start at 1:06min.

i also used to work on a farm every weekend as a child; we will start from just before sunrise and work till sunset.(with only 1 hour break around 1pm)

I guess all these things catch up to you later in life.

i appreciate the you taking the time, sir. Thanks Kosko.

@
speakeasy

Bloody Fuck man. All the things we took for granted at 18 catching up to us in our late twenties and early thirties. Fuck the gods, man. even as recently as when i was 25 or so(a couple of years ago); i did somersault off the rooftop at a house party. landing on my feet. I was slightly intoxicated. Despite landing squarely on my feet, there was a nice jolt of pain through my neck.
Our body isnt built the way it was anymore, mate.
I can only take too may head hit...playing football(soccer) for years has seen to that.

standing on my feet for an extended period will cause my quadriceps/upper back of my hip to start tensing up.

And i absolutely do not want to do any back surgeries.

What can we do? all we can do is exercise and try to eat the right food and see how far/best we can live a optimal lifestyle. The past is prologue. we cant change the past. We can only make the best of it today. Sorry to read about your back pain, sir. Hope all turns well in the future, speakeasy. take it easy.

@ prophylaxis

Yes. there is a pain on the left side of my lower back. (with my left hand facing a computer)

stress fractures on my back? Never did x-ray on my spine until recently. But given the abuse our body takes as a gymnast, i am pretty much there were stress fractures. I landed on the ground with pretty much every part of my body. Even though it was against regulations, we still dis gymnastic practices on the football(soccer field) without protection. Injuries abound. Sometimes, we did gymnastics on concrete floors. boys will be boys.

first picture: YES. totally. I dont dare move my back that far.

2nd picture: YES, sharp pain...on the left.

thanks for the advice on the youtube videos. that is why i specifically search for the ones by chiropractors. (and ignore the rest)....even still....

thank you, sir. I appreciate you taking the pains/time to post and ask me specific questions.

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[Fortitudinal]

I had back problems for years. Then someone suggested getting rid of the bed and sleeping on the floor.

Ive never looked back, it takes a few days to get used to it, but then you will sleep better than you ever thought possible.
Just get a good stiff pillow if you sleep on your side, you need to keep your noodle aligned.

Highly recommended, and when SHTF you wont miss having a bed or any of that nonsense. I do like a spartan lifestyle so YMMV.

[defguy]

Im in great shape and get lower back pain standing on my feet all day. Lower back exercises like roman chair and compound exercises where I use my stabilizer muscles in my lower back such as bent over row and squats are key.

people with chronic back pain swear by sleeping in a hammock. It's not as sexy as sleeping in a bed but zero pressure points, The hammock wraps around your body. It can take some time to find out where you feel "just right" but the quality of sleep will be like that of a memory foam bed. And you hit an almost drug induced state rocking yourself to sleep back and forth.

[kbell]

Sitting 8 hours a day would hurt the back as well. You tend to hunch which compresses the lumbar spine. Also the legs are contracted at the hamstrings for a long time as well. Standing desks help much better in this aspect. Proper sitting posture is awkward.

[Sylvester]

"first picture: YES. totally. I dont dare move my back that far.
2nd picture: YES, sharp pain...on the left."

See. An. Expert. ASAP!

Do not try to copy stuff on youtube, it might make things worse.

Ask around to find a good chiropractor in your area and they will tell you what needs to be done in your situation and will teach you exercises that strengthen your core and are safe to do for you.

Now this is what it becomes down to. Finding these exercises, doing them safely and having discipline to do them every morning and evening, if not more often. For months.

I always have had a bad posture and I started going to gym 10 years ago. I had a personal trainer hand me a training program (generic one, a big mistake there) and he supervised me just once to see whether I am doing the exercises in the program correctly. It was like being handed keys to a car after just one driving lesson.

Of course, my technique was bad from the start and adding weights made things worse.
I also did not stretch myself before and after the workout. Another huge mistake.

Soon I pulled my back and had to go to chiropractor to get rid of the pain. He showed me a couple of exercises (some of the ones below) and told me to do them every day for a month. I did these for a few days, then went back to the gym. And pulled my back again in a year. Back to the chiropractor, pay €, go back to gym, back fucked again in less than a year, chiro...

Things started getting better when I found a great massage therapist. She activated my back muscles, sorted out the hunchback and taught me more exercises to do, to help with posture. She also told me to get a fucking grip of myself when I had not been doing the exercises and I had pulled my back again.

This really helped. The motivation and exercises.

Then I started doing pilates and yoga for a while. Pilates IMHO is really the best way to start from scratch when it comes to strengthening the core and lower back. Yoga exercises can be a lot more intensive and you might not activate right muscles, rather just compensate with other muscles that should not be active during specific exercise.

Yoga helped me to become a lot more flexible but it did not help my muscles grow and support the body a lot better. The problems were back when I had not gone to the class for a week.

This year I found for a great personal trainer who took his time and put together a really effective gym training program. Most of the trainers just hand out generic programs.

So yeah, find experts from real life and follow their advice.



In general these are what you want to be doing but find someone to help you select exercises and repetitions that help you most where you are at now.

I do #2 daily, 10 minutes at a time. It really helps but you have to pay attention how high are you raising your hips, how straight is your back, ... an expert has to see you doing it and correct it.

Like Fortitudinal said, sleeping on floor helps.
Or you could just get a really hard mattress
Soft mattresses kill your back.

[Beyond Borders]

Swimming. Swim every day and your back problems will likely go away unless there is something seriously messed up with it already.

[Nemencine]

HOLY BLOODY SHITE....good stuff...good stuff.

good stuff all around....

From Fortitudinal, defguy, kbell, sylvester, and beyond borders.

I am taking notes....i will discuss all these stuff with my chiropractor...and see what is up.

damn! thanks a million everybody.

[Prophylaxis]

Hey Nemencine.

I would say you most likely have a 'facet joint arthopathy'.

Basically this means your lumbar joints to the left side of the back are getting 'jammed up'.

Here are the exercises you want to perform to 'open up' the joints.

- but do this stretch lying on the RIGHT side and pulling the left leg over your body - hold for 10secs X 5

Gently bring knees to chest, back and forth

Also as has previously mean mentioned in other threads - do lots of posterior pelvic tilting (as having an anteriorly tilted pelvis can worsen this)

Summary:
Lumbar rotation stretch
Knees to chest
Posterior Pelvic Tilt


Avoid any stretch that brings on your pain, as this often means the joints are being further 'jammed up' .

Let me know how you go!

[A War You Cannot Win]

I'm currently dealing with 3 herniated discs. I'm in pain all the time. Sometimes I have to get dressed laying down on the floor.

-Stay active. Don't let your core and supporting muscles deteriorate. This will cause more pain.

-If you can't run, swim.

-I'm the very strong, but inflexible type. If this is you, don't neglect your stretching.

-Watch your diet. Certain foods and drinks can increase inflammation, while others decrease inflammation.

-When lifting is a certain exercise hurts, stop doing it. I'm an idiot and used to powering through the pain (military) and hurt myself even more squatting a weight my spine couldn't handle or support or last week. Don't be an idiot like me. Light weight, focus on form. It's hard to leave your ego at the door, especially for someone like me, but do it.

I'm going in for a spinal epidural injection this week, hope it reduces some of the pain. I've tried chiropractor, acupuncture, and physical therapy. This is the last measure before surgery it looks like.

[defguy]

@ A War You Cannot Win excellent advice!

I forgot about swimming! Swimming is the best exercise for someone with back pain. Become an expert swimmer, marathon swimmer. Get a paddle board if you have to but swim for about 30 minutes every day or every other day, your back muscles will improve in no time. You dont have to take a day off from swimming, you can do it every day, and it will stabilize and strengthen all your muscles. There are tons of variations you can do as well, diving for stuff, swimming freestyle, butterfly, backstroke, dolphin style, etc.

I also agree with his 4th point, if it hurts, stop. You either have a muscle imbalance that needs to be corrected or you're using bad form and can lead to further injury (im assuming you know the difference between sharp pain and muscle soreness).

[Noir]

This helped me:

[The Lizard of Oz]

Anyone experiencing lower back pain should take a look at Robin McKenzie's fantastic (and brief) exercise book:

Treat Your Own Back

As a brief background, McKenzie, a New Zealander, is the most brilliant physical therapist of all time and the inventor of McKenzie exercises (described in this book). These exercises have revolutionized the treatment of disc injuries, either of the lumbar spine (lower back) or the cervical spine (neck). McKenzie exercises are often curative of lower back pain that is discogenic in origin (resulting from displaced or misaligned vertebral discs).

It's important to read the whole book (again, it's quite brief) and understand the basic points he makes about correct seated posture -- poor seated posture is at the root of a large number of chronic lower back problems. And it's important to do the exercises exactly as he describes; they are very simple so just follow the instructions to the letter.

******************

Separately, a great and underrated exercise for maintaining a supple lower back is weighted hyperextensions:

Make sure you incorporate these very regularly as part of your weight training routine.

Note that while the bitch in the video is nice to look at, her form is actually bad: you should keep your arms fully extended, not bent like she does; you should move in a controlled way through the full range of motion, without bouncing. Hold the weight with your fully extended arms -- do not clutch it to your chest.

Done properly, this is one of the best and most important exercises there is and the single most underutilized. It can correct many lower back problems. Start unweighted and then progress slowly using weights.

[Vaun]

(07-15-2014 08:48 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

Anyone experiencing lower back pain should take a look at Robin McKenzie's fantastic (and brief) exercise book:

Treat Your Own Back

Mackenzie is the only thing that fixes my back, as a competitive athlete, when my herniated disc flares up. Have a doc that I skype with that taught me all of the exercises in a few sessions.

[Sandman]

I am a physician with expertise in spinal injections, minimally invasive spine surgeries, and spine and nerve pain. And almost an expert in open, more invasive spine surgeries. Happy to answer any specific questions.

Glad to see folks are finding pain relief with conservative therapies

three pieces of general advice:

1) back pain is very heterogeneous. talking about "back pain" treatments is the same as generalizing one cancer treatment to another. Some treatments will be helpful to almost anybody by at least a small amount and be unlikely to hurt anybody (ie swimming and vitamins) but highly specific treatments for one type of back pain can't be generalized to others

2) sitting on the ground with your legs straight in front of you and reaching for your toes, as is commonly done in yoga, is bad for discogenic pain as well as vertebral stress fractures

3) there are many charlatans who push back surgery to line their pockets. There is special place in hell for them. However, sometimes surgery is curative, or it slows worsening. I operate on less than 1% of my patients

[NilNisiOptimum]

Nemencine,

While my type of back pain has been more caused by muscle tightness than a skeletal condition like yours, here's what had worked best for me:

Hip flexor stretches. I stretch each side for 30 seconds am them switch sides. Repeat 2-3 times. I do this when I wake up and when I go to bed.

Foam roller. Great at releasing tension. I roll my upper back/shoulders, lower back, glutes, hamstrings, calves, quads and hip flexors. I make slow passes along each region, about 5 seconds round trip, making 10-15 passes. For the legs, I do one leg at a time, allowing you to put all your weight on the one leg. You'll notice a difference between rolling one leg and both. When you find a sore spot, hold the roller on it, the pressure works on the knot. I generally use my roller 3 times a week, more if my back is really bothering me.

For some background on my back pain, I'm a desk jockey and a golfer. My pain tends to center in my lower to mid back with occasional tightness in my hips and legs if I don't get enough walking in throughout the day.

I hope this advise can help.

[SteveCR]

I used to have really bad lower back pain, due to years of bad posture sitting in front of a computer all day. I went to chiropractors and physical therapists; nothing ever worked. What finally worked for me was the gym - hitting the iron.