[Nomad77]

Ok, since this whole flaking issue appears to be getting completely out of control lets collect some data to try and isolate the cause or causes. I will list four levels of interaction and would appreciate it if you can think about it for a moment and reply which level flakes on you the most.

Level 1: less than 30 mins of interaction.

Level 2: between 30 - 4 hrs or more of interaction.

Level 3: make out.

Level 4: sex

[slubu]

I've had girls flake after sex and have had sex with girls that I've talked to for 3 minutes before getting a number and leaving. It's so prevalent and random, that the only way I found to counteract it is to increase your numbers. 10% of 50 girls is 5 girls, 10% of 100 girls is 10 girls. Just approach 50 more and you will bang more.

[Nomad77]

For most guys, they just don't have the time to rack up these kind of numbers. If you are only going out one or two night a week it will take some. Also, it means you have to go after just about any girl not only the girls you are really interested in.

[bojangles]

There was some good shit on this

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/04/2...er-closes/

Quote:

Girls that flake. Everyone has probably had this happen to them. Anyone who approaches girls and gets phone numbers finds that some girls don’t answer their phone or are “too busy” to ever do anything. This happens because they are flat out not that interested. This isn’t because you are not interesting, you just didn’t do enough to make them want it bad enough. Girls will rearrange their schedules for you if they want to see you bad enough. Once you get better at approaching girls, your next step is to eliminate flakiness. [...]

I was putting too much emphasis on getting the phone number and not enough on the method. Numbers equal nothing if you can’t act on them. [...]

Flat out, don’t even ask or insinuate you want their number. After this one particular night I implemented this experiment right away. So what happened?

The next weekend I met a group of girls. I liked the long haired, darker skinned girl from new york. She was the most attractive by far. I steal her friend’s chair. We exchanged stories and she is semi interesting. We find a few subjects that are common interests. At this point she has found a smart, unique, really good looking guy and she can’t believe she found him at a bar! But….I have to get going now….it was really nice talking to you….

That’s how I leave conversations. I leave a window there for them to give me their number, or inquire how we will talk again. I will leave nearly any girl hanging. An often response is…

“umm, do you want my number?” with almost a desperate look on their face. It is probably unbelievable to them that I just built this little relationship and I am willing to just leave without an attempt…

“well I don’t usually take girls’ numbers, I have been pretty busy lately….” Then I “decide” to let them have my number.

As they put my number in their phone, they text or call me right away. They do this so that I have their number and jokingly to see if I am lying. As I look down at my incoming call, I am standing right next to them. As I look up I quickly give them a kiss. They don’t see this coming and it catches them off guard. Then I leave and let it register in their minds what just happened. [...]

Since I have done this, the flakiness percentage has drastically gone down. A girl won’t flake on me if she is asking for my number. [...]

In the scenario where a girl isn’t asking how to get a hold of you, you can do things such as make tentative plans to prompt her even more. You don’t want to loose focus though. The idea is that she should be chasing you. Forcing numbers is a waste of time.

[Ovid]

I really do think this phenomenon can be traced squarely back to the cell phone. In the "old days," human interactions meant more, because they were based off real life, which is harder and requires more effort than firing off a 'like' or a compliment on Facebook. If a girl liked you enough to give you her digits and agree to a date, she would usually follow through unless some direct alternative came up that she would absolutely prefer. (ex: I'm supposed to be meeting this guy for a date, but my friend just offered me a spare ticket for my favorite band's concert, which is a once-in-a-lifetime thing so I really want to go.)

Furthermore, limits in communication meant that dates once made could not be too easily cancelled, because cell phones and text messages are a relatively new phenomenon, and even after they began to be adopted, it took several years for this to be really widespread, and several more for social habits to shift to accommodate the new technology. In other words, in 1998, if a girl had a date with a guy, the only way to cancel was to call him, which requires a lot more effort and social pressure than firing off a canned and impersonal text message. Even if she called there was no guarantee she'd be able to reach him, and he might not even have an answering machine. Flaking was hard work, and requiring so much effort, it was easiest to just go with the flow and stick to already-arranged plans. In 2005 she might be able to text but still feel the need to call, but by 2013, flaking is an ingrained and effortless habit, facilitated by the fact that everyone over the age of 12 in our society now carries a cellphone, and probably one with an unlimited-texting plan.

The smartphone just exacerbates this, by wiring girls into a virtual social world 24/7. Because communication is so instantaneous, plans can be made and unmade effortlessly, and because of Facebook, plans practically suggest themselves. Furthermore, real time status updates encourage girls to live in the moment. Her mood can be killed in an instant if her best friend's puppy gets run over, and something she would have heard about on Monday morning in the old days, she learns at 8:44pm on Saturday instead. Before, a guy had to be more interesting than other guys, to hold a girl's attention and get her out. Now, he has to be more interesting than her whole social life, and those social lives are now able to be bigger than ever. It's a tall order.

Bottom line: I don't think flaking is a man's fault, and obviously some girls are more prone to it than others, but there isn't much that can be done about it. The best way to minimize it is to find girls who are more likely to be really into you so that if it comes down to you or another guy/their friends, they're more likely to choose you.

[Giovonny]

I don't believe in "flaking", among strangers.

I don't think strangers can "flake" on each other. I believe, that only friends or family can flake on each other.

For example, you meet a girl at a bar, you talk to her for an hour, you guys make out, you get her number, you call her, she never returns your call.

Did she "flake"? I say no. She was simply not interested. She has no obligation to call you back or see you again.

Next example, you make plans with your friend, your friend says he will be there, your friend doesn't show up. Thats "flaking", im my opinion.

A girl that doesn't want to talk to you is simply a girl that doesn't want to talk to you.

She can't flake on YOU because she doesn't even know YOU. If you were dating her for a few weeks and banging her, and you guys make plans to have dinner and she doesn't show up, thats flaking!

A stranger not returning your calls in not a "flake". It's just a stranger who is not interested in talking to you.

Saying you "got flaked on" is taking it personal, when actually she knew nothing about you on a personal level.

[Ovid]

Yes, it's all about presentation. If a girl flakes it's because I didn't present myself well enough to push her particular buttons. Because we're not telepathic and can't read minds, a lot of game involves projecting a personality which appeals strongly to a broad spectrum of girls, in order to maximize the likelihood that one of them will be receptive in that time and place to continuing the interaction, eventually to sex. A flake just means that the attraction built was insufficient to overcome all the other shiny things flashing for her attention -but because technology has made these things more accessible for girls, the attraction necessary to hold a girl's interest over a period of days is now higher than it has been in the past. This is overcome with tighter game, better calibration of it to the girl, and better optimized environments.

[kenny_powers]

(01-28-2013 01:51 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

I don't believe in "flaking", among strangers.

I don't think strangers can "flake" on each other. I believe, that only friends or family can flake on each other.

For example, you meet a girl at a bar, you talk to her for an hour, you guys make out, you get her number, you call her, she never returns your call.

Did she "flake"? I say no. She was simply not interested. She has no obligation to call you back or see you again.

Next example, you make plans with your friend, your friend says he will be there, your friend doesn't show up. Thats "flaking", im my opinion.

A girl that doesn't want to talk to you is simply a girl that doesn't want to talk to you.

She can't flake on YOU because she doesn't even know YOU. If you were dating her for a few weeks and banging her, and you guys make plans to have dinner and she doesn't show up, thats flaking!

A stranger not returning your calls in not a "flake". It's just a stranger who is not interested in talking to you.

Saying you "got flaked on" is taking it personal, when actually she knew nothing about you on a personal level.

HA Gio - You are so California bro!! On the East Coast, if you say you will do something and don't follow through, you are a labeled a "flake"

When I first moved to CA many years ago, a fellow east coaster told me

Two things you need to know about people here vs back home
1. Flake factor is very high
2. IQ's are in remission (his words not mine)

[Nomad77]

Flaking is basically when you can't see a girl again for some unknown reason - only she knows it. If she gave you her phone number it's reasonable to assume she was at least interested in seeing you again at that point in time. Or maybe, that's no longer a reasonable assumption. If the consensus is that a phone number or other contact information is basically worthless then what's the point in getting it? The whole concept of a "number close" becomes meaningless and all that's left is the SNL

[polymath]

Interesting discussion. I like your threads lately Nomad.

(01-28-2013 06:22 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

Flaking is basically when you can't see a girl again for some unknown reason - only she knows it. If she gave you her phone number it's reasonable to assume she was at least interested in seeing you again at that point in time. Or maybe, that's no longer a reasonable assumption. If the consensus is that a phone number or other contact information is basically worthless then what's the point in getting it? The whole concept of a "number close" becomes meaningless and all that's left is the SNL

A number close isn't meaningless, since without it you can't follow up with a girl who is interested. It's necessary, but not sufficient, for another step toward intimacy (or whatever you call it).

It's up to a girl to decide if she wants to answer or not, just like it is up to you to decide if you want to call or not. I'm sure many of us have had girls offer up their numbers and we just didn't want to call, or wanted to but never got around to it.

Flaking is when someone makes plans with you and then breaks them or otherwise avoids them. It sucks but girls are fickle creatures and somehow it seems nicer to some of them to make and break plans, than to just never make them at all.

It has never been the case that a man is entitled to a woman's time and attention simply because they met. You have to make her want to give it to you. If she's not answering a call or text, then she doesn't want to.

It's all part of the human mating dance.

The sooner you put the blame on yourself for your sticking points with anything in life -- women, school, work, fitness, anything -- the sooner you can get past those sticking points. By saying that a girl is flaking by not answering a text or call after you number close, you're putting the onus on her to be attracted, rather than on you to be attractive.

To answer the question, I get flaked most at level 2.

[Nomad77]

Thanks polymath!

@Ovid Very true observations!

Before facebook, twitter, and tumblr women had to actually go out with men to get some male attention. Now, they just need to post a pic from the comfort of their iPhone and they have a bunch of men liking and responding to it regardless of how ugly they are. Women today are being "validated" without having to give anything in return. So since they can get their attention and validation fix remotely why bother taking the trouble to get dressed up and actually go out to get it.

[Nomad77]

@polymath Ok, granted there is no obligation on the woman's part to go out with you. But if I am going to invest hours of my life interacting with women I want it to be as productive as possible. The more I can maximize getting a date the more productive my time spent will be. So, this problem can be attacked from two angles: one, you implement screening techniques to screen out girls that would have a high potential to not want to see you again. Two, you tighten your game to make sure they do want to see you again.

Going back to other thread where I wrote that Latin girls don't really find me that attractive. Well, interesting enough, they are also the ones that flake on me the most. A number from an American or European girl has a 50% greater chance of yielding a date than a number from a Latin girl in Miami in my personal experience. And, both types of girls get the same guy, the same game, the same everything.

PS Are you saying that girls you talk to for less than 30 mins flake less than girls you spend hours with?

[polymath]

(01-28-2013 08:22 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

Are you saying that girls you talk to for less than 30 mins flake less than girls you spend hours with?

Yeah, exactly. I think I have a tendency to be excessively forceful in conversation sometimes, while also missing cues for escalation. So, girls who barely know me tend to be interested, but then I fuck up somewhere in conversation and they get bored after a while.

On the other hand, I do pretty well with first impressions.

[Nomad77]

Hmmm, interesting. It's the opposite for me. The more time I spend with a girl the less flaking I get. Most of my flakes occur at Level 1 where I just interact with a girl for less than 30 mins, many times a lot less. A lot of times the opportunity just isn't there to interact with her more than that at that specific time.

You should go out with an experience wing and get some feedback on what you might be doing wrong.

[DVY]

Ive asked for #s quickly and it works well for night-game. That said, most #s are only after I feel a connection w/the girl.

My levels seem to follow similar trajectory- initial meeting, initial vibing, connection.

If anything feels off or doesnt click, girl will either make excuses and leave or I will leave because I think its going nowhere.

I might come back later, but I almost never ask for #s then. I might ask for a # later in the night, if things "re-ignite".

my level 1(cold) is 5 mins or less.

level 2(semi-cold/warm) would be 20 -30ish mins.

level 3(hot) is 1 hr or more. (Rare, but you get better at discerning suitable candidates. This is when a girl really digs me.)

At level 1, flake rate is about 60-70% for me,
level 2 about 30% flake rate,
level 3- bang the same night, or bang on 1st date. Maybe 5% flake rate.

Maybe, its just me but I hate dealing w/flakiness. I would rather not have a # from a girl, then deal w/ups and downs of flakiness. It throws my day-to day mood off.

The essence of game is turning each level into the next effortlessly, but level 3 can't be faked well. Sometimes, I wonder if its just a pure biochemical response to that person. Like a rat with cheese or something.

[Nomad77]

Thanks, this basically conforms to my experience. The more time I spend with a girl the less likely she is to flake. If we can collect enough data to prove this then we can conclude that one way to reduce flaking is to just spend more time with a girl. And the less time you spend with one the more you should expect her to flake.

Which is what I wrote about in this old post: http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-14899.html

[WestIndianArchie]

(01-27-2013 11:44 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

Ok, since this whole flaking issue appears to be getting completely out of control lets collect some data to try and isolate the cause or causes. I will list four levels of interaction and would appreciate it if you can think about it for a moment and reply which level flakes on you the most.

Level 1: less than 30 mins of interaction.

Level 2: between 30 - 4 hrs or more of interaction.

Level 3: make out.

Level 4: sex

I've had flakes @ all 4 levels, (thankfully, few @ level 4).
There's no rhyme or reason to why she'll give you a bj in the parking lot, but won't return a text the following day. Where as some chicks just want to be the mother of your children based on how you take your jacket off.

My rules of engagement
- ALWAYS go for the same night lay
- day 2 is near to where I live, doing something that I want to do
- cold #'s get pinged periodically with a "hey what's up"

From time to time I have to seriously check my ego otherwise I'll start to take the words and actions of strangers to heart.

WIA

[Giovonny]

(01-28-2013 05:44 PM)kenny_powers Wrote:  

HA Gio - You are so California bro!! On the East Coast, if you say you will do something and don't follow through, you are a labeled a "flake"

Whats up Kenny,

I need to watch more of Eastbound and Down. The little bit I've seen has been hilarious.

Nomad is getting phone numbers and the girls are not returning his texts/calls. Half of the girls probably just gave him a number to get rid of him. Many were probably fake numbers.

Girls give out their numbers as a path of least resistance to end the interaction-approach. They give it to you so you will go away. She knows she will never reply to you. Other girls who don't respond are simply not interested in what they saw from you. They made no commitments, no promises, they didn't "say they would do" anything.

I don't see this as flaking.

A guy with bad game could go to the mall and collect 10 phone numbers. Most of them fake and otherwise like I described above.

He contacts all 10 and none of them get back to him. He goes online and says flaking is at epidemic levels!

Is it the guys game or the girls flake???

Nomad,

I have been there before. I was a number collector. I got numbers but I didn't spark curiosity, I got numbers but I didn't moisten vaginas. It's not enough to logically convince her to give you her number, you have to make her feel like a woman, make her think about sex.

The answer is not to quantify female flaking statistics, the answer is to improve your overall game, look, and presentation of yourself.

Numbers alone are useless. It the process of how you get the number that is important.

Treat the cause, not the symptom.

[Nomad77]

Well Gio, if it was just me, I would be willing to accept that but everyone I know here is complaining about it. Rational was just talking about it in a post. I just had a girl contacted me again after a few months on a restart that had just suddenly disappeared. She said she lost her phone, blah, blah, blah... And she just agreed to meet up again.

We may also have a different definition of flaky. My definition is just someone that's generally unreliable and inconsistent. They may be this way before the 1st date or after it.

[kenny_powers]

I like this thread. We all have our own definition of flaking and our own way to handle and deal with whatever it is we consider flaking to be. Personally, I don't really care and it doesn't bother me. A lot of that has to do with the fact that I have accepted rejection as part of my professional and personal life and it is a numbers game. I don't take (some) things personally.

Nomad - are you doing night game in addition to your day gaming in South Miami? I've read some of your other posts and I think you getting frustrated with the (lack of) results. Stay positive bro!

Gio- It is a very funny show!

[Nomad77]

Thanks, ye, I do night game too. It's more about my personality, I hate flaky people in general both male and female.

[kenny_powers]

(01-29-2013 03:46 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

Thanks, ye, I do night game too. It's more about my personality, I hate flaky people in general both male and female.

I hear you man. I would rather have a girl say "fuck off and die" than give me her number with no intention of seeing me again. In my view of the world that is less of a rejection.

[Nomad77]

I can't make this shit up. She's actually fasting this whole week and this is what she said:

"Fasting is good for mental clarity. After 48 hours the body goes into ketosis and in this stage the mind is so clear and and allows room for more focus. I'm a little embarrassed even explaining that. I'm definitely an odd ball."

[Giovonny]

(01-29-2013 04:04 PM)Nomad77 Wrote:  

I can't make this shit up. She's actually fasting this whole week and this is what she said:

"Fasting is good for mental clarity. After 48 hours the body goes into ketosis and in this stage the mind is so clear and and allows room for more focus. I'm a little embarrassed even explaining that. I'm definitely an odd ball."

Wait!

It can't be?!?!?

Are you guys thinking what I am???

[Nomad77]

lol, Gio, I already met this girl and I was the one that broke the first date because she said she only had limited time. Now, we are suppose to meet up on Thursday for her to tell me about this fasting.

The only reason I am talking about this girl is that she is one of them that just suddenly disappeared on me and then popped up back today.