[Kid Twist]

(03-24-2019 03:14 PM)yang2287 Wrote:  

(03-24-2019 02:24 PM)Delta Wrote:  

I always have at least a few leads in my phone, that's hardly an issue, but ~95% of them make things as difficult on me as possible with their passive/lackadaisical attitudes, and as for the other ~5% who seem enthusiastic, I can always rest assured they'll go cold at some completely random time. I can't tell you how many times I've performed well on a 1st/2nd date, escalated to a makeout, had the girl enthusiastically texting me afterward, only for her to be perpetually "busy" in the coming weeks. (I have neither the logistics nor the desire to pursue SNLs with sluts.)


Is this normal?

Could this be the issue? As far as i can tell I've never succeeded with a girl i didn't lay the same day or same night.

The flaking epidemic is real and should continue, an American just flaked on me this afternoon in Paris, last week it was a French-Algerienne. And then if you imagine the sheer numbers needed to filter the chaff and funnel from Online to get to a date

Basically these girls expect to have sex if they come out on a date and if she doesn't expect to be banged, then she is just another time-waster. Why would you give 2 hours of your time to a time waster.

Dating is the new cock-block, i think you should push for ZDB and if all else fails and she insists on the date, you should expect to f*** her after the date. I also think the dating fatigue is real, so many of these girls have gone on sooooooo manyyy dates, your offer is just gonna be another date offer, they get tons of this.

From what i have been dealing with, the dating now happens over SMS, thats how cowardly these girls have become, and when she does agree to meet you in person, you should make the bang happen same day or same night. Focus on the lay not the date (attraction, seduction logistics etc)

Think ZDB or get your logistics right. At least an Airbnb in a good location for first and second bang and then subsequently change up the story (I moved to the suburbs) if you want her in your harem

I actually laughed out loud here, this is actually simultaneously so sad and so true. On average this is what happens in modern times with women who you don't know through long periods of social proof or verification. Think of it that way and it makes perfect sense. The slow, uncertain, painstaking grind with limited knowledge if it's going to work out, vs. the quick "why would I waste my time with this basic girl". Typical amplification of extremes we see with most things these days.

I sadly report that as a younger man when I thought more traditionally and virtuously, it hampered the hook/instant attraction generally. In a culture without real dating or courting though, when you think of it, why would that be desired since the new norm is no attention span/social media insta-stories?

The upside is bigger to play it classy, but so is the downside of time wasting and being abused by girls.

[jbkunt2]

@OP

Interesting post.

I experience largely the same thing as you. However, I don't waste a second on online dating. Quit that shit.

Real life is the only way. Bars that aren't too loud where you can chat with girls.

[jbkunt2]

That quoted post by @LINUX is absolute gold ??

[Graft]

(03-24-2019 02:24 PM)Delta Wrote:  

Is this normal?

Yes.

My experience has been identical to yours and I consider myself pretty close to a top tier percentile guy (game, looks, money, physique, lifestyle, social media, etc) living in New York City.

You have to accept that relationships with men are fairly low on the priority list for women, especially in a career oriented city such as NY, SF, or LA. In my opinion, the stack rank goes like this: 1. Female friends/socializing 2. career/education 3. fun activities 4. meaningful relationships with men. It's a modern cancer, but you have to live with it. The good news is that you sound like you have your shit together on the career front. That's somewhat of a box check for them. The bad news is that it seems like you suck with socializing and won't meet your future girl through friends. That's ok, most of us suck at that too. The only thing that you can do from here is insert yourself into slot #3. I'll explain how to do this after the next quote.

(03-24-2019 10:00 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Traditional night game is dead. Girls simply don't go out to bars/clubs with the hope of meeting a random guy these days. They go out to take pictures with their friends so they can compete with other girls for social media likes. Dating apps are dead. They exist as nothing more than validation mechanisms for average and below average-looking women. Yes, there are exceptions to these generalizations - but the point stands. Your ROI for nightgame and dating apps is much, much lower than in the past. And quality is also way down. I don't think anyone can dispute that.

Game has shifted heavily towards social circle and Instagram/Snapchat. I group the two together because they are increasingly inseparable. A confident approach, good looks and engaging conversation are no longer enough to pique the interest of most quality girls these days. They want a man who can demonstrate value and pre-selection through his Instagram/Snapchat. It's as if they simply no longer trust themselves to judge a man's value without seeing his social media. An air of mystery used to be a good thing, but the current generation of young women is so addled by social media that they literally can't make decisions without it.

Women are hardwired to seek out high status men. We know this, and shouldn't get butthurt about it. It is what it is - women wants a high status man like men want an attractive woman. And Instagram/Snapchat, intelligently used, are essentially nothing more than personal advertisements of your social status. This is why they're so intoxicating to women. It's the ultimate shortcut/cheat sheet for them when it comes to assessing a man's value. It lays a man's social status bare for her to judge instantly. Could you imagine an app that somehow let a man see every woman he met naked and tell her how many men she's slept with? That's basically the equivalent of Instagram/Snapchat from the male perspective. These apps in particular have massively tilted the playing field toward women and high status men.

Daygame is your next best option. Many women who have soured on dating apps and who have exhausted their current social circle options are open to a smooth daytime approach. There's a serendipitous factor (from their perspective) that plays in your favor that you simply do not get from other avenues. But even here, you will likely be hampered if you cannot quickly demonstrate value through an Instagram/Snapchat.

Basically, if you aren't into the social media game in 2019 you're fighting a tremendous uphill battle, and all of your game interactions with women will essentially be a race against time: you'll have to somehow dig your hooks into her before she walks away because she can't properly determine your actual value. In other words, you have to demonstrate concrete value very quickly after meeting her. If she doesn't see it with her own eyes she's going to assume you've got nothing going on and will quickly start chasing the next high status guy whose value she can accurately judge through social media.

Repped for one of the best game posts in forum history. Taking this post and my upcoming advice is going to be crucial for your future success with modern women.

Women don't want a regular boyfriend. Women want a career, friends, and a fun and exciting life. Your job is to become that fun and exciting piece in her life. Nothing more. Being a provider doesn't work, she doesn't want that. Being an introverted intellect doesn't work, it doesn't make her excited enough. You already have a six figure salary, I'm going to show you how I converted a high income into a fun and exciting life instead of being a provider.

The first thing you are going to do is move to a major city and find 1-3 cool roommates off Craigslist or Roomi or some other app. Screen hard for your roommates, you want people that are fun, connected, going out type of guys. One of the worst things I did early in my life was live alone, it made me isolated and inhibited my social life. Look to pay 1600-2500 each (in SF, LA, or NYC) and get an absolutely dope spot with a draw. That draw could be a cool rooftop, it could be a nice pool in the common area, it could be a patio in the apartment. You're looking for something that will set up your spot for future socialization and parties. You and your roommates should be on board with the program, you're looking for post college bro type guys who will be down to drink, pick up girls, go out, etc. This is key for your future social life. Trust me, I've been there.

The next thing you are going to do is take your 2-3 weeks of vacation and commit yourself to absolutely dope vacations. I'm talking about Florence, Cartagena, Vietnam, Peru, places that have amazing photos and make people jealous.

The key element to this is making an Instagram account. Add your friends, add anyone you meet, all the dating app leads, ditch text and use this for all further communication. You're going to start posting photos and stories every time you go out with your new friends, make sure to hit the top spots in the city, take group pictures, post photos of your new spot and your "draw", then take pictures on all three of your incredible vacations. PM me for some detailed ideas on instagram, it's harder than you think.

I took those exact steps and morphed from an introverted provider type into the fun, social, free guy that they all want. This changed my life and my results immensely. I lose so many leads like you do, but the difference is that a lot of them come back. They comment on my photos, my stories, proposition me for dates. They want to be a part of my life because I show them how big I do it. Even if they don't come back, I'm cultivating leads daily, so now I'm the hot chick on dating apps, blowing off new matches because I have so many past + current leads on my social media.

(03-25-2019 05:55 PM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  

I suggest the following immediate radical steps which I hope won't be met with defensiveness.

1. Delete every girl from your phone (I'm talking about the prospects not your friends and family and needed work contacts.) If one calls just ask who is this and don't apologize for not keeping her #. Why do this? Because you acquired a lot of low quality leads from your practices you need to dump them. If you cannot do this or are resistant to do this you genuinely do not believe in abundance, and you think you need to cling to these shitty #s.
2. Delete all your dating apps and accounts, full deletion. Wait 30 days and reconsider one of them if there was a chance for quality results. What you are doing is entertaining women by being on these, nobody is there to meet, you are just giving validation. The more validation you provide the less they need to meet you or fuck you. Take that hat off that says free attention for girls. Your attention/conversation/empathy is available only to the ones who meet your demands.
4. Delete all the dumb sluts you don't really like off your social media. Let them go, unfriend, block, etc. Don't let the world see that you surround yourself with "leads" you aren't really interested in. I didn't say don't fuck them, don't let them rise up to equal level with your real friends.

OTR is a great poster, but don't fucking do this. The answer to game frustration is not to delete anything to do with an iphone and bang out cold approaches. Scorpion said it best: this is the game in the 21st century, and you have to fucking play it. Understand that women in the 18-24 bracket have been using social media their entire life. If you don't have it or you suck on it you're a fucking loser weirdo in their eyes. You should be amplifying your social media and enhancing your life constantly. Trust me if you do this correctly, women will fall off as usual but you will get a small cohort of them who are begging to be a part of your amazing life.

The key is building a fun, exciting, social life and marketing it correctly. Women wan't that ultra-social fun guy. You don't even have to necessarily be it. Just fake it as much as possible.

Every young guy on this forum should be studying how to build a social life and a social media account to show it off to everyone. This is the key to game in the 21st century. It's going to be the haves and the have nots, and the haves are the people who take this advice to heart.

[Off The Reservation]

^What you are saying responding to the deleting Graft would normally be true but OP appears to needs a full reset, and to start over. There are times you have to scrap something completely and let it go and start again. Read his other posts and you can see this "frustration" he has has dragged on long enough. He hasn't created a pipeline, he has created a digital jail cell based on steps he thought would work, but didn't. By his own admission it's a collection of apathetic bullshit girls who barely cared whether they gave him the # or not... He is deep into the sunk time fallacy with the dating accounts etc. He said he isn't the ultra fun social guy, so he needs to rebuild using an authentic approach. Not everyone is the ultra fun guy and trying to be that when you aren't is a great way to keep a decent girl away from you.

Believe me there are an abundance of amazing girls everywhere who do not need a social clown. For a MAN to spend much more time than a few seconds effort "creating" a personal social media presence is the equivalent of a man saying he stays home all morning to watch morning shows so he can keep up with trends. It isn't getting on with the business of being a man, it is substituting that business with the business of being a clown.

"But... if you act like a fag you can get laid by lots of girls who think this is cool!"

No thanks.

[Off The Reservation]

I missed the editing window. I am blown away at how good the replies you got on this other thread also, starting with the one from NOIR.

Delta, are we going round and round in circles with you? Your title says "no idea how to solve." But your previous threads are filled with solid gold how to solve advice. What's up?

[Delta]

Thanks for all the replies. Too many to respond to every single one individually, but I'll address a couple of the key points:

Quote:

Since you aren't gay stop telling us and your physique - do the exercise you need to but stop focusing on this. From your other thread you said one of the most faggoty things Ive heard in a while: "My main photo tested in the top 10% of attractiveness on photofeeler." WHO FUCKING CARES.

Let me set the record straight, I cringe every time I have to type that stuff. I say "have to" because if I start a thread like this and don't, everyone will inevitably assume that I'm a fat loser shooting out of my league, and tell me to hit the gym and get my own life in order. Hell that's the first thing I assume when a guy expresses frustration with his lack of dating results. Every schlub claims to be "decent looking" with nothing remotely objective to back it up. I have no desire to brag to the forum, or create the impression that I'm some kind of magnificent one-in-a-thousand physical specimen (I absolutely am not). I just want to make sure the issue is not repeatedly misdiagnosed. I totally see where you're coming from if it sounded like I was trying to brag that I'm the shit because I'm in good shape.

On the topic of social media- I've never felt the need to do the whole Instagram fake lifestyle schtick because girls never ask for any of my social media. They don't really ask anything about me. They give no indication that they care nearly enough to stalk my social media presence. Plenty of girls will agree to dates without knowing a whole lot about me; that's not really the issue. You could argue that it could increase my value in their eyes, and thus their investment level which is what I was down about when I started this thread, but as OTR points out I believe I'd run into the incongruence issue if I did it with my current lifestyle.

@Graft, I do find your story about finding cool roommates and moving to a major city very inspiring and encouraging. Sounds like beforehand you were in a very similar place to where I am now. I have actually been looking for jobs in a couple of major cities, but I keep getting sidetracked/caught up in life and letting it fall by the wayside. Thanks for the reminder that I need to make this a priority, I needed that. The life you've created for yourself sounds enviable.

@OTR, something else you said which I found interesting:

Quote:

Believe me there are an abundance of amazing girls everywhere who do not need a social clown.

Every once in a while I find one of these girls, but it's a needle in a haystack. From my vantage point, most cute girls gravitate toward the social clown. What do you think is the best way to meet the ones who don't?

[The_e_man]

(03-24-2019 02:24 PM)Delta Wrote:  

Is this normal?

Yes, for many men.
But not for the top shelf men that regularly get pussy.

I'm going to go off the assumption that you aren't very good looking. This is based off the fact that girls aren't giving you much to work with at all. Not saying you are ugly, but you are definitely not good looking enough to spark interest purely off your looks alone.

Not all hope is lost, you could in theory make up for that with tight game.
But it doesn't seem like that's happening either. Going on dates, getting make-outs, and then getting ghosted or being hit with perpetual busy schedules. You come off as an intelligent person, and I can sympathize with your frustration because I've felt I've been in a similar spot before.

So I can sort of get a feel that I think you are either come off to "nice" to these girls or, on the other end of the spectrum, you might be coming off as too "gamey" or try-hard. Both turn-offs.

[Delta]

(03-25-2019 01:16 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

All this cold approaches and especially online apps have killed your ability to connect and build rapport with girls. You shouldn't need to sit there thinking and coming up with clever lines and messages, or conversation building strategy. It should be simple and just off the top of your head. Else you'd be in trouble if you somehow manage to start dating one of them for real.

I want to give a shout out to this line because it was a bit of an epiphany for me. You're right, sitting there thinking of the optimal reply doesn't translate to real life interactions and might even atrophy my ability to hold an in-person conversation. Not only that, it makes text game feel like a major chore, which is also massively destructive (to both my game and my happiness).

From here on out, I've vowed to think about my text replies for no more than a few seconds.

[Conquistador]

As long as those few seconds don't involve being needy. I remember a while back when I would have to literally stop myself from sending a needy message. I've rarely had the privilege of getting laid regularly or banging more than one chick at the same time, so for me that was and still is hard as fuck. It's a catch 22. You respond with something without thinking about it and risk being needy. Or you overthink it and try to hard.

[66Scorpio]

Dude,ARE YOU INTERESTING? I am ex military, a former lawyer and used to design board games. Do you have anything interesting to talk about when you are gaming chicks?

Not a dis, but an observation.

There is the saying "play stupid games and win stupid prizes". The reverse is to play cool games and win some cool prizes.

[66Scorpio]

I think that you get interest on two axis: 1) are you interesting? 2) are you dangerous?

[66Scorpio]

ggggg

[Brahman]

Ha I said something similar to a friend with the same issue...

“Do intersting things, you’ll meet interesting people”

Can replace ‘interesting’ with ‘fun’ etc

[Beirut]

OP, i would be surprised if you WERE getting girls. I skimmed through the thread but if i understood correctly, you live in a place where meeting girls in the day is impossible.

You dislike or dont do night venues.

No mention of extended social circle so i assume it doesnt exist.

Basically youre relying on a couple of apps. I use apps too but mostly its to maybe get one or two hot girls when im going for a week or two to a new place. Not gonna build my dating life around it.

You have an input and not an output problem. Not enough girls are coming into you life so not enough will come out of it.


If youre stuck somewhere because of a good job, well doesnt that good job have some high value social circles around it?
If youre making good money, why not hit the nightlife and establish yourself in some circles there?
I realize those two may be out of your comfort zone but you cant keep doing the same htings and expect different results.

[Tinder Scientist]

@graft Don't you think there is a problem with changing your entire life just to get access to some higher grade pussy?

While I believe you 100% it works and it probably leads to an interesting and fun life for some, I don't think it's for everyone.

Basically you are saying he should move to a different city, find new friends who are into partying and travel just to get instagram pics.
You are basically living your entire life for pussy at that point, instead of becoming a man who has those experiences organically (the cool pad, the cool social circle, etc).

[RDF]

^ I used to think the exact same way. Why change up your life just for some pussy? Do what you want and let the women come to you.

Recently however, I've realized that it is just an extension of the "follow your passion" argument when choosing a career, whether your passion is French Literature, surfing, or modern art. As an example, you may love art, but are you happy pursuing your art career if you're 38 and eating ramen for dinner most nights of the week? The vast majority of people would not be happy in circumstances where their basic needs are not being met.

Pussy is an important primal need for a man. Complete lack of sex makes some men go crazy, and at the very least, puts the vast majority of men in a depressed state. I'm not ashamed to admit that getting pussy, whether it is a female companion or occasional one-night stands, is important to me. And I've worked to set my life up to where I am happy with my sex life.

There's nothing wrong with looking to change your circumstances if you're in a situation where women are very difficult to find. It isn't really different than starting an online side hustle to make some money when your surfing career isn't taking off and you're starved for cash.

[Tinder Scientist]

(03-29-2019 09:26 PM)RDF Wrote:  

^ I used to think the exact same way. Why change up your life just for some pussy? Do what you want and let the women come to you.

Recently however, I've realized that it is just an extension of the "follow your passion" argument when choosing a career, whether your passion is French Literature, surfing, or modern art. As an example, you may love art, but are you happy pursuing your art career if you're 38 and eating ramen for dinner most nights of the week? The vast majority of people would not be happy in circumstances where their basic needs are not being met.

Pussy is an important primal need for a man. Complete lack of sex makes some men go crazy, and at the very least, puts the vast majority of men in a depressed state. I'm not ashamed to admit that getting pussy, whether it is a female companion or occasional one-night stands, is important to me. And I've worked to set my life up to where I am happy with my sex life.

There's nothing wrong with looking to change your circumstances if you're in a situation where women are very difficult to find. It isn't really different than starting an online side hustle to make some money when your surfing career isn't taking off and you're starved for cash.

I'm not advocating the "let the women come to you" mentality.

I'm saying that there should be limits, for example I enjoy living by myself in a nice place a whole lot. I'm not going to sacrifice that just to have a better party circle when I can still have a social circle + the comfort of my own place.

I'm saying that game and women should compliment your life, not make you a prisoner to them.

There is a way to do what graft proposed without turning your life into a grind for pussy, I believe there is a balance.

[Off The Reservation]

(03-26-2019 11:39 PM)Delta Wrote:  

@OTR, something else you said which I found interesting:

Quote:

Believe me there are an abundance of amazing girls everywhere who do not need a social clown.

Every once in a while I find one of these girls, but it's a needle in a haystack. From my vantage point, most cute girls gravitate toward the social clown. What do you think is the best way to meet the ones who don't?

See the steps in my first post.

[RichieP]

@OP if you have a good physique, decent appearance and well-paying job then you are lacking ....drumroll... game.

Charisma, masculinity, leading, assertiveness, strong boundaries & standards, abundance mentality.

The shit that makes an impact and turns girls on -- even without all the nice-to-have bells and whistles you've already accumulated.

Back to basics man. Game is your bottleneck.

[whiteknightrises]

Your looks, status, social skills, etc. are probably not as good as you think they are (no offense).

I've had guys message me thinking they were good-looking while it was extremely obvious why they weren't getting any pussy

I would recommend hitting up someone who knows what they're doing and asking for an opinion

[AntoniusofEfa]

Go to where the food is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKNoJ2BzSRU

Move to a place with a higher female to male ratio. It sounds to me like you are in a place with too much qualified competitors. Another option is to build up a social circle: host parties, organize get togethers, or join a fraternity. The best thing would be to move, AND to build up a social circle.

Doing the dating app thing is just trying to game a rigged system.

[Delta]

I didn't intend to have a discussion about how to bring more women across my path, because (1) it's fairly obvious how that would be done, but it involves serious time, energy, sacrifice, and restructuring of my life that I'd rather avoid, (2) I get enough leads to keep me busy currently, and (3) my goal is not to become a high n superstar player.

What I'm at a loss to explain isn't why I don't land 3-4 dates per week, it's why I consistently get such indifferent responses from the women I do pursue and date. Here's a very timely example: Since posting this thread, I asked a girl out for a second date, to which she replied that she'd have to figure out her schedule and see when she's free, a behavior pattern I've encountered many instances of recently. A few days later, in a move uncharacteristically up-front for chicks, she got back and explained this to me as having felt "completely neutral" about how our first date went and not knowing what to make of it. Needless to say, there isn't a second date in the works. I mean that's exactly how I diagnose such situations anyway, but it's still jarring to hear out loud, especially since these "not committing to another date but not flat out rejecting it yet" type responses are such a recurring pattern for me.

What's clear to me is this- I'm not doing anything at all ostensibly "wrong," but I'm still failing to push the attraction buttons. As I explained in the OP, I can confidently say I'm way ahead of the curve in terms of self-improvement/building value. I have no problem holding a conversation with girls that aren't socially retarded; usually they're happy to hang out and chat for as long as I let it go on, whether that's 2, 3, 4 hours or even longer. They tend to be pretty compliant too, my venue bounces are rarely met with resistance. I know to kino/escalate and usually when I have the desire to, I can bring things to at least some light kissing. So it's hard to say what needs to change. Do I need to go on steroids and look like a bodybuilder rather than just a regular sized athletic and toned dude? Do I need to piss away money on status symbols to look like a major baller? Do I need to pretend to have more in common with these girls to try and manufacture the "connection"? Do I need to be hyper-aggressive and try to fuck every girl in the back seat of the car on date 1? Is it really near-impossible to succeed without good first date bang logistics as some have suggested?

[GT777733]

@Delta

There is no perfect answer to this question.

There is no place you can go to to find the perfect girl.

Don't think it's something wrong with you if you genuinely have done the work to self improve and you are a 7 or 8 or above across most categories/aspects of life, or you'll go insane.

If what you are most pissed off about is the attitude of girls, and you don't mind some short term wins that might not necessarily result in anything worthwhile long term - definitely get out of the West and go to places like Russia and South America. These girls from what I have experienced actually pursue you, and don't have the trust issues or social programming running through their head 24/7 (although this might change over the next 10-20 years with globalisation - who knows). It will be a big refresher to your psyche.

Having said that, don't buy into the hype that these girls, or girls anywhere you go travelling are perfect either. They might be better in some ways by a long margin, but they all still have their problems - whether it's problems with money, visas, cultural issues and so on.

Also, understand that many men still don't understand the difference between game/attraction, and traits that make someone a long term, quality, stable/healthy partner (which is the next progression if a guy chooses that).

You might be a stable/healthy guy, and the problem with that is - in the current social culture - most girls aren't attracted to that. They want, as the guys above have mentioned, a guy that is socially proofed on social media and through social circles or through social status. The mentality of a lot of these girls is shot.

It's easy to set your life up to optimize to get these girls if you want to - but, where is that going to lead you?

This sounds like a boring cop out answer, but the best answer I've been able to come up with is you pick the things you find valuable in life from a work and passion project perspective, and you work on those things in conjunction with having a social life with your family and friends. What will happen is, you'll meet girls and guys through your work and passion projects, or through your regular life (travelling, doing social activities), and you'll naturally meet girls that way. It's a slower way, but it's more sustainable and natural.

I'm not sure what sort of guy you are - but if you are a guy who doesn't buy into the whole baller/travel to pick up girls/social media scene, and you are trying to get the attention of most girls in society these days - you're in for a painful time.

Live your own life and build things from there. Get off the dating apps and stop doing activities that are low ROI that end up draining you and leaving you more confused than fulfilled/grounded.

This is exactly what I've seen Roosh has come to the understanding of in the last few years (and it's matched my experience too) - picking up girls for fun is easy. When you want to start having longer term relations with girls or even just healthy relations where you don't have to play games or pretend to be something you're not - you start seeing the limitations in the way society currently works.

The guys that I see that are actually in long term healthy relationships - most of them have picked nicer girls, but have settled in some ways - whether it be looks, intelligence, or something else. Some guys genuinely do get lucky to an extent though and find the right girl at the right time who they believe gives them the value they deserve.

But, there's no perfect answer to this.

It's a case by case basis, and some men are going single or having far less relations with girls because they've just accepted you can't walk outside tomorrow and find girls that are exactly your type/liking. Especially as you age this can be the case, because you can get less willing to put up with bullshit and games.

Take a more holistic long term approach, in summary, is my answer.

Do things you like to do and see as valuable, and build from there.

[Conquistador]

Two, three, or four hours seems too long for nonbang first dates.