[Easy_C]

(11-27-2018 12:57 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

But the enemy now is sort of amorphous. It's behind the banks in which we deposit our money. It's in the tech companies whose products we use. It's buying the favors of our politicians.

It's also behind the media people consume and get their "facts" and concepts about life from. Example: Conservative Web sites complain about Cosmo, but they don't think to step back and look at the bigger picture. Who is behind Cosmo?

Cosmo is owned by Hearst Communications, which owns scads of newspapers, magazines, radio stations, Web sites, and syndicates.

So, that article that encourages teenage girls to have anal sex isn't coming from a writer per se. The writer is the tool being used by a MASSIVE organization that has a board of directors of international billionaires.

At risk of outing my actual background, here's an exercise I suggest everyone interested in the topic undertake.


I want you to 1) Write down five to ten brands you associate with SJW-ism It doesn't particularly matter what the brands are or what product they offer. They just need to be global brands that have pushed leftism in aggressive ways. 2) Identify each brand's parent company. If they aren't publicly traded scratch them off your list. 3) Go to Yahoo Finance's Symbol Lookup. For each parent company, punch in their name and ticker. Once you do that navigate over to the "Shareholder information" tab for each company. 4) Write down the top 3 shareholders for each company on your sheet

Notice I'm NOT giving you any specific criteria for what companies to pick. It literally doesn't matter because out of the universe of large-cap, global corporations almost any 5-10 will be fully promoting the globo-homo agenda. I'm also extremely confident that the results of this exercise will be largely the same for any sample of 5-10. Technically you need 25 samples for a statistically valid, 90% 1-tailed confidence interval but the variation between results is so low that as few as five or so samples is virtually guaranteed to give you the same result I get.



If you're intrigued by what you see, the next step is to start looking up the ownership structure of those entities. The entire structure has evolved into an extremely complicated maze relative to feudalism but if you keep following the money, equity ownership ultimately ties into the same group of people.

[Easy_C]

Interesting comment from a family member when I showed them the thread:

"Very intersting. It was a medieval tenant that Satan was the inverter. It was even expressed musically"

[debeguiled]

(11-28-2018 01:13 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 12:57 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

But the enemy now is sort of amorphous. It's behind the banks in which we deposit our money. It's in the tech companies whose products we use. It's buying the favors of our politicians.

It's also behind the media people consume and get their "facts" and concepts about life from. Example: Conservative Web sites complain about Cosmo, but they don't think to step back and look at the bigger picture. Who is behind Cosmo?

Cosmo is owned by Hearst Communications, which owns scads of newspapers, magazines, radio stations, Web sites, and syndicates.

So, that article that encourages teenage girls to have anal sex isn't coming from a writer per se. The writer is the tool being used by a MASSIVE organization that has a board of directors of international billionaires.

At risk of outing my actual background, here's an exercise I suggest everyone interested in the topic undertake.


I want you to 1) Write down five to ten brands you associate with SJW-ism It doesn't particularly matter what the brands are or what product they offer. They just need to be global brands that have pushed leftism in aggressive ways. 2) Identify each brand's parent company. If they aren't publicly traded scratch them off your list. 3) Go to Yahoo Finance's Symbol Lookup. For each parent company, punch in their name and ticker. Once you do that navigate over to the "Shareholder information" tab for each company. 4) Write down the top 3 shareholders for each company on your sheet

Notice I'm NOT giving you any specific criteria for what companies to pick. It literally doesn't matter because out of the universe of large-cap, global corporations almost any 5-10 will be fully promoting the globo-homo agenda. I'm also extremely confident that the results of this exercise will be largely the same for any sample of 5-10. Technically you need 25 samples for a statistically valid, 90% 1-tailed confidence interval but the variation between results is so low that as few as five or so samples is virtually guaranteed to give you the same result I get.



If you're intrigued by what you see, the next step is to start looking up the ownership structure of those entities. The entire structure has evolved into an extremely complicated maze relative to feudalism but if you keep following the money, equity ownership ultimately ties into the same group of people.

This is like an evil magic trick.

[Easy_C]

Last post for now:

For anyone interested in doing a deep dive into occult symbolism, here's a good reference:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_yjr7...mNSZ3dQeXc

[AnonymousBosch]

Fascinating reading. Understand how what we think of as 'The Right' doesn't see the entire picture when it comes to Jewry:

https://therebbeblog.wordpress.com/2017/...dern-left/

So, whilst I'd noted a Jewish Civil War, it sounds like it's being playing out for a very long time, and, as a Rabbi in that article warned Christians, your protection against these people is simply obeying your religion.

As an aside, I'm reading 'Spiritual Childhood' by Vernon Johnson - an examination of the teachings of Saint Therese of Liseux written in the 1950's .

I was discussing with a Nun on the weekend the necessity of bearing your cross, of embracing suffering, and how after what is known as the second conversion, the spiritual life becomes much deeper and more mature. With that, suffering feels like a blessing from God, and, as St Therese was very astute: there's a burning furnace of love, offering you a painful but joyful purification, if you willingly-step into it.

The Sister nodded and said the main problem with society at the moment is that most people are unwilling to suffer, out of attachments to their pleasures, or fear of any kind of self-denial.

Note how Jesus initially kisses his cross, inducing contempt in the Roman Guards: "Why do you embrace your cross, fool?"

If you can willingly embrace suffering and discomfort, ignoring what the world holds in high value - then, these people cannot touch you. The bible is a guide to free you from their influence.

As such, the passage in the book resonated this morning, where Johnson notes that Jesus had barely begun his public ministry when the spirit of the world moved against him:

Quote:

In spite of the vaunted desire for 'the brotherhood of man', the world does not want the Fatherhood of God, upon which the brotherhood of man is based. If the Fatherhood of God is made effective, at once it means authority, and authority means obedience, and obedience means sacrifice. This the world will not have, for the world is essentially-selfish, independent and disobedient.

See how they work? Indulge yourself. It 'feels' better to disobey.

Your protection? Deny yourself. Obey.

[CynicalContrarian]

(11-27-2018 11:05 AM)Sherman Wrote:  

In my opinion, the most critical thing to realize is that it is all made up fantasy. If you wallow in it, you may become seduced. There is no inherent power or magic in their deluded words. There is nothing to learn by studying it.

Dutch Christian businessman Johan Huibers built a life sized version of Noah's Ark which he plans to sail to Israel.

...

How much valuable time have Europeans wasted pondering Jewish fantasies. The above is an example of Christian masturbation. These are the useless activities Europeans with resources are doing while their world turns into darkness. Ask yourself: Does this fantasy serve us?

I propose that we form our own constructs which come from us and give us the strength to do real battle with their darkness. It was the rediscovered Greeks that propelled us to greatness in the Renaissance.

Jewish Fantasy: Xanity, Psychotherapy, Feminism, LGBT, Movies, Neocons, Fake News

European Fantasy: Greek philosophy, Renaissance, Science

The way out. Stop consuming their junk.

Mean-time. Despite all the hyperbole & hysteria that one small Biblical tale was wrought in the past few decades.
What is the underlying premise of that 'fantastical' tale?
It's not boats, rain or pairs of animals.

Rather, that a society hindered by hedonism is doomed to fail.
Not too dissimilar to our secular & hedonistic society today...

Hedonism is hellish.

[DamienCasanova]

Celine Dion’s clothes for kids ‘definitely satanic,’ says renowned exorcist priest

As swiftly as the advertising campaign for Celine Dion’s new “gender neutral” children’s clothing line launched, judgment –– which sees intrinsic evil being inflicted upon these innocent babes – has crashed upon the ill-advised effort.

The commercial, intended to be humorous, is dark. Dion, in what appears to be an act of sorcery, blows a handful of black dust in a hospital nursery filled with babies dressed in pastel pink or blue. Suddenly, black crosses hang in the air over the children as they find themselves clothed in drab black and white onesies covered in stars and messages in big letters declaring “NEW ORDER.” Images of skulls encircle the infants’ heads.

“I’m convinced that the way this gender thing has spread is demonic,” Msgr. John Esseff told the National Catholic Register. “It’s false. I don’t even know how many genders there’s supposed to be now, but there are only two that God made.”

Msgr. Esseff, formerly a spiritual director to St. Teresa of Calcutta, has been a priest for 65 years and an exorcist in the Diocese of Scranton, Pennsylvania, for more than 40 years.

“The devil is going after children by confusing gender,” he continued. “When a child is born, what is the first things we say about that child? It’s a boy, or it’s a girl. That is the most natural thing in the world to say. But to say that there is no difference is satanic.”

“People behind this are influencing children to disorder,” he said. “This is definitely satanic.”

“The devil is a liar and there are huge lies being told,” added Esseff. “This is being done for money, and there is divisiveness that comes from this — marks of the devil.”

Dion worked with children’s clothing manufacturer Nununu in this effort. The new partnership calls itself “Celinununu.”

Dion and Celinununu clearly state that they want to use their clothing line to mold children’s thinking to create and adapt to a genderless world. Others might see this as a effort to brainwash young minds to accept a terrible ideology.

“CELINUNUNU liberates children from the traditional roles of boy/girl,” declares the joint venture’s new website. “We believe that an educational experience is possible through children’s clothes, because fashion builds concepts deep within our minds and changes thought patterns.”
Vatican exorcist: The devil wants to confuse children about gender

Demonic disturbances that torment individuals, called diabolical obsession, “can lead to confusion about one’s gender,” “particularly in the young,” wrote Father Gabriele Amorth, who served as the chief exorcist of Rome and founded the International Association of Exorcists. Amorth performed tens of thousands of exorcisms throughout his career.

In his book, An Exorcist Explains the Demonic: The Antics of Satan and His Army of Fallen Angels, Amorth wrote that disordered ideas about gender, especially in children, can be a sign of torment from the devil.

Amorth warned that many of the devil’s “ordinary” temptations are passed off as “modern ideas” but really serve to “unhinge the principles of the faith.”

The Dion/Nununu partnership — Celinununu — through materialism and truly odd virtue signaling, seems hellbent on seducing parents to confuse their children about gender from birth.

Interestingly, Dion’s Celinununu ad perhaps betrays dark motives. The world of the children in the video is robbed of vivid color, and they instead are swathed in dull blacks and whites.

The same thing is evident at the Celinununu’s website: The media page displays unhappy children in austere surroundings wearing drab Celinununu clothing, almost admitting children’s lives will be drained of their natural humanity and happiness as boys and girl if parents succumb to the corporation’s messaging.

[Sherman]

(11-29-2018 10:51 PM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 11:05 AM)Sherman Wrote:  

In my opinion, the most critical thing to realize is that it is all made up fantasy. If you wallow in it, you may become seduced. There is no inherent power or magic in their deluded words. There is nothing to learn by studying it.

Dutch Christian businessman Johan Huibers built a life sized version of Noah's Ark which he plans to sail to Israel.

...

How much valuable time have Europeans wasted pondering Jewish fantasies. The above is an example of Christian masturbation. These are the useless activities Europeans with resources are doing while their world turns into darkness. Ask yourself: Does this fantasy serve us?

I propose that we form our own constructs which come from us and give us the strength to do real battle with their darkness. It was the rediscovered Greeks that propelled us to greatness in the Renaissance.

Jewish Fantasy: Xanity, Psychotherapy, Feminism, LGBT, Movies, Neocons, Fake News

European Fantasy: Greek philosophy, Renaissance, Science

The way out. Stop consuming their junk.

Mean-time. Despite all the hyperbole & hysteria that one small Biblical tale was wrought in the past few decades.
What is the underlying premise of that 'fantastical' tale?
It's not boats, rain or pairs of animals.

Rather, that a society hindered by hedonism is doomed to fail.
Not too dissimilar to our secular & hedonistic society today...

Hedonism is hellish.

Then why not just say that? Building a boat looks even more hedonist. It reminds me of Jerry Falwell's Holy Land theme park. We are dying because we don't have a mythology that inspires our people. Christianity has been weaponized against us. What they don't say in the media is that Catholic charities makes millions of dollars on illegal immigration, and they need the people because churches are closing up in America. What they are doing is just over the top ugly and mind boggling - taking your boy away from you and redefining him as a girl through surgery and drug treatment. But millions of Christians in America say if you go against those who are doing this to you, God will curse you. These people are worthless for fighting evil. They are complicit agents.

[MajorStyles]

(11-29-2018 09:03 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

Fascinating reading. Understand how what we think of as 'The Right' doesn't see the entire picture when it comes to Jewry:

Reading through Julian the Apostate, we realize that the very birth of Christianity is part of this distorted picture - the early Christians choosing to springboard off the Old Testament and, thus, preference the Jew. By doing so, they consciously obscured the more dominant and accomplished empires of the day: Greek, Roman, etc.

From Against the Galileans:

"Why were you [Christians] so ungrateful to our gods as to desert them for the Jews?"

“…point out to me among the Hebrews a single general like Alexander or Caesar! You have no such man.”

“What kind of healing art has ever appeared among the Hebrews, like that of Hippocrates among the Hellenes, and of certain other schools that came after him?”

[Enoch]

4 chan chimes in:

http://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/195181097

[AnonymousBosch]

(11-30-2018 10:20 PM)MajorStyles Wrote:  

By doing so, they consciously obscured the more dominant and accomplished empires of the day: Greek, Roman, etc.

What accomplishments exactly? Widespread abandonment of live babies (functional post birth abortion), Bacchanalia and sexual debauchery, public pornography, social acceptance of sodomy, gays in the military, institutionalised pederasty (12 if freeborn, no age limit if a slave), and mass immigration? The Greeks, the Vikings and the Romans all thought Sodomy wasn't 'gay' if you were doing the penetrating. What's the trade-off? Indoor plumbing and inflated notions of man's self-importance?

The fetishism of Pagan Cultures by the Right makes their stated moral problems with the Left seem, at best, hugely-hypocritical, since the cultures that existed and are being praised is the one the Left is working towards, and most likely-based upon some kind of pride-based Subjective Reality implanted via the faculties of the imagination: I'd guess, (((videogames))), (((movies))) and (((television))). It's seems to have amped up with 300, Vikings, and that damn Way of Men book written by the Homosexual Satanist.

Julian's effort failed because Paganism divided, rather than united, the populace, which is probably why it's being pushed so hard on Whites, which means, acceptance of any form of it means you're - functionally - on the opposing side, and only dysfunctional results can follow.

[chicane]

"Fair is foul and foul is fair"

From The Scottish Play

[Leonard D Neubache]

Historically, when this inversion arose, in what way was it dealt with that was both in accordance with God's will and the continued survival of his worshipers?

[Kid Twist]

J Pageau talks about inversion a lot, a very smart guy with tremendous knowledge of art history and archetypes.

[debeguiled]

(12-01-2018 05:53 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Historically, when this inversion arose, in what way was it dealt with that was both in accordance with God's will and the continued survival of his worshipers?

Mr Neubache,

A saved Christian has eternal life, and is supposed to fear God and not those who can only hurt the body.

Survival is assumed for true believers.

You cannot understand Christianity if you keep limiting the concept of survival to mere worldly survival.

Each Christian runs their earthly race to the best of their abilities, and leaves the rest to God.

[godfather dust]

(12-01-2018 01:42 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

(12-01-2018 05:53 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Historically, when this inversion arose, in what way was it dealt with that was both in accordance with God's will and the continued survival of his worshipers?

Mr Neubache,

A saved Christian has eternal life, and is supposed to fear God and not those who can only hurt the body.

Survival is assumed for true believers.

You cannot understand Christianity if you keep limiting the concept of survival to mere worldly survival.

Each Christian runs their earthly race to the best of their abilities, and leaves the rest to God.

One of my biggest problems has been following Trump to closely.

As the deep state continues winning I have returned to hardening myself to accept my eventual persecution.

If I end up in a gulag I need to be able to accept torture and death without renouncing my faith.

(Yeah, sounds loony... It's in the Bible)

[infowarrior1]

(11-30-2018 01:26 PM)Sherman Wrote:  

(11-29-2018 10:51 PM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 11:05 AM)Sherman Wrote:  

In my opinion, the most critical thing to realize is that it is all made up fantasy. If you wallow in it, you may become seduced. There is no inherent power or magic in their deluded words. There is nothing to learn by studying it.

Dutch Christian businessman Johan Huibers built a life sized version of Noah's Ark which he plans to sail to Israel.

...

How much valuable time have Europeans wasted pondering Jewish fantasies. The above is an example of Christian masturbation. These are the useless activities Europeans with resources are doing while their world turns into darkness. Ask yourself: Does this fantasy serve us?

I propose that we form our own constructs which come from us and give us the strength to do real battle with their darkness. It was the rediscovered Greeks that propelled us to greatness in the Renaissance.

Jewish Fantasy: Xanity, Psychotherapy, Feminism, LGBT, Movies, Neocons, Fake News

European Fantasy: Greek philosophy, Renaissance, Science

The way out. Stop consuming their junk.

Mean-time. Despite all the hyperbole & hysteria that one small Biblical tale was wrought in the past few decades.
What is the underlying premise of that 'fantastical' tale?
It's not boats, rain or pairs of animals.

Rather, that a society hindered by hedonism is doomed to fail.
Not too dissimilar to our secular & hedonistic society today...

Hedonism is hellish.

Then why not just say that? Building a boat looks even more hedonist. It reminds me of Jerry Falwell's Holy Land theme park. We are dying because we don't have a mythology that inspires our people. Christianity has been weaponized against us. What they don't say in the media is that Catholic charities makes millions of dollars on illegal immigration, and they need the people because churches are closing up in America. What they are doing is just over the top ugly and mind boggling - taking your boy away from you and redefining him as a girl through surgery and drug treatment. But millions of Christians in America say if you go against those who are doing this to you, God will curse you. These people are worthless for fighting evil. They are complicit agents.

What are the alternatives? Are they immune to subversion like Catholic charities have been subverted?

What mythology is immune to this subversion?

Are they not predators wearing the skin of organizations they have already gutted?

[Leonard D Neubache]

(12-01-2018 01:42 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

(12-01-2018 05:53 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Historically, when this inversion arose, in what way was it dealt with that was both in accordance with God's will and the continued survival of his worshipers?

Mr Neubache,

A saved Christian has eternal life, and is supposed to fear God and not those who can only hurt the body.

Survival is assumed for true believers.

You cannot understand Christianity if you keep limiting the concept of survival to mere worldly survival.

Each Christian runs their earthly race to the best of their abilities, and leaves the rest to God.

During the worst years of Communism people were ripped out of their communities. Their kids were taken to orphanages where they were stripped of their Christian culture, abused horribly and in some cases executed due to a lack of food. I very much doubt that there was a priest there to explain their need to repent their sins and accept Jesus as their lord and savior. Most of them were probably just crying and screaming after the first one was shot in the head.

Meanwhile their parents were in death-camps reduced sometimes to the state of animals driven insane by hunger and in that state willing to commit the worst kind of crimes against their fellow man just to survive. Many would have simply died in their sleep. No repentance there either.

This is my problem with modern Christians. They seem to think that they end will come on their terms. What do they imagine? That as the communists rumble up the driveway in a tank that the Flanders family will huddle in a circle and say their final prayers before a HE round vaporizes them all painlessly and propels them into God's arms?

Christendom exists because Christians had the will and the moral framework to keep or in some instances retake their lands by force. Obviously there exists a framework in the orthodoxy for earthly resistance to invasion and subjugation by the forces of evil.

So as someone who was raised as a Christian I'm asking earnestly of people that are far more versed in these matters than me, what is the earthly system for defending on a societal level against evil?

I'm not interested in kneeling in prayer in my living room only for my kids to end up abused and shot in a Soviet style orphanage and my wife and I turned slowly to animals in a re-education camp.

Speak to me of the Christianity that survived the Moors, when Christendom still had its balls. You want to talk about inversion? Refusal to choose life in the face of murder is an inversion. Refusal to defend your lands from invading idolaters and heretics is an inversion. Refusing to defend the weak among your flock such as the women and children is an inversion.

What is the Christian orthodoxy for fighting that earthly evil and expelling it?

[Easy_C]

The Catholic church well.. Used to be pretty good at that. Masonic membership was considered an automatic excommunication: you were no longer welcome at church, not longer part of the community, no longer welcome to hold any influence on the church.

For me the answer is relatively simple. The belief in doctrinal infallibility (NOT papal infallibility, although not Francis never directly contradicts doctrine) combined with the judicious use of excommunication to remove the influence of subversives helped make the Catholic church extremely resilient to subversion. It's worth noting that even egregious fiscal and moral corruption during the Renaissance from people like the Borgias couldn't fully pull it off. In order to bring Christianity to a place under control it had to split off from the structure provided by the See into dumbed down versions that recognized no greater authority than ones own conscience, aka. The original Lutheran teaching.

Orthodox communities are still relatively resilient in that regard but generally tied into national identity that distorts the true point of the religion.

Ultimately there isn't any clear answer.

[Easy_C]

Other thought: I am acquainted with a fairly well known Catholic theologician. I can’t make it to his parish this week but next week I intend to go and ask him your question.

[Aurini]

To follow up on Leonard's post, and to quote my friend Laramie Hirsch, this is why Christians need to start seeking power. This is a dirty word in most Christian circles these days, which is understandable given how depraved most power seekers have become (Hollywood, politics), but just because these people are using evil to accrue power doesn't mean that power is inherently evil.

As a Church we are castrating ourselves to avoid fornication, instead of taking wives to satisfy our desires. We are cucking, and handing culture and civilization over to demoniacs.

There are many ways to generate power without committing evil. Myself, I have a small local community - really just a handful of people - and we help one another in day-to-day things. Lending a pair of workboots, teaching the kids some math and morality, help with vehicles. We've developed an exclusive form of trust and charity in our circle because we don't hand out our trust and charity to the masses like whores hand out sex. Together, we're all stronger than we'd be on our own, as atomized units.

It's just a small thing for now; but it's headed to bigger and better places. Eventually I hope to be part of something that has enough influence to enforce our standards on a small community, and have a seat at the local level of politics.

It is our duty to build ourselves up and prepare for a rainy day; putting all our faith in Jesus, and doing no works with our own hands, is taking His name in vain.

[redpillage]

(12-01-2018 01:54 PM)godfather dust Wrote:  

One of my biggest problems has been following Trump to closely.

As the deep state continues winning I have returned to hardening myself to accept my eventual persecution.

If I end up in a gulag I need to be able to accept torture and death without renouncing my faith.

(Yeah, sounds loony... It's in the Bible)

I'm sure you're a hit at parties....

So what, no webcast today? I need my weekly fix!!!

[debeguiled]

@LDN

There was a lot of sound and fury in your post that didn't really address what I was saying.

It sounded like you were giving a good old rant in the direction of every Christian who ever insulted you or let you down.

Which is okay by me to a degree. You and I had a similar disagreement over Jordan Peterson if you remember.

The issue is really clear. You think that you have a greater knowledge of relevant worldly facts that I am overlooking, whereas I think I have a greater knowledge of spiritual facts that you are overlooking.

I don't think that impasse will penetrated by arguing.

I take all your points, in fact I already know all of them. So to me, your post is like an SJW's shaming jag. It is not intellectual argumentation. It is social argumentation.

You aren't trying to prove me wrong, but are trying to prove me morally inferior.

Social argumentation.

As to the power of Christian civilization in the worldly sense, you have to remember that there are some things that God lets us do as concession to our human nature, and not as a holy command.

If you want to understand the Christian philosophy you only have to look at the central metaphor of Christianity, which is very similar to some of the examples you give.

No Christian knows what they will do when faced with true oppression, and he can only hope he will do so with bravery and love.

He may not though, and this is the fear of every man anyway, the difference being that the Christian is forgiven.

I don't see any reason to continue to bicker about this issue. I have said what I have to say. I respect you as a person and am always happy to read what you have to say on the forum, and look forward to your response if you feel like giving one.

[TIOT12]

Below, is an example of how bad the indoctrination is in some of the young. This is at Speakers' Corner in London and two 20 year old woman continue to maintain that a man can say he is a woman and become a woman. What is scary is how dedicated they are to this position in the face of logical evidence that contradicts it. They assert their position for over 50 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_fP8M9rtoA

[AnonymousBosch]

I was going to write something yesterday, Leonard, but such a reply is going to be very time-intensive on my part, tying together years of experience, and, well, I had other duties to perform first.

So I'm asking: do you want a serious reply to your question? Or do you just want to vent about Christianity regardless of what is said?