[bucky]

I'm in my late 40s. Ever since really getting into fitness and getting into good shape back in my late 30s, I've been pretty good at pull-ups. Not world class, but incorporating several sets of 10 to 12 pull-ups into my workouts was no problem, and I could max out at 16 to 18. Never got to the point where I was doing weighted pull-ups (I work out at home and don't have the equipment anyway) but I felt like I got a lot out of doing them just with my body weight.

About six months ago, I started developing chronic pain in my left elbow. Pull-ups seemed to aggravate it, to the point that I eventually just stopped doing pull-ups. I'd do a little of other pulling exercises like dumbbell rows while not using too much weight, which seemed a little easier on the elbow and the pain went down quite a bit but still persisted to some degree. Nevertheless I can feel that whatever problem my elbow has is still there, and that it will probably get worse if I start doing pull-ups again. Thing is, I really miss the benefits of doing them.

Does anyone have any advice? Either about what might be wrong with my elbow (I know that's a toughy without being a doctor who can examine me in person) or about a good workout strategy to build muscle without a lot of pulling exercises. General stories about older guys who work out hard while avoiding certain types of exercises because of injuries or annoying pain somewhere in the body are also welcome.

[Vaun]

You have most likely a tendon problem, most likely tendonitis. Think of it like tennis elbow, but in reverse.

Your pull up grips and the types of pull ups you do greatly matter here. If this were a non-anonymous fitness board I would ask you to post a video of your pull up. The Starting Strength forum is a good place to post questions like this with video. Most likely, and my guess; you use a narrow pull up grip, you aren't fully extending at the bottom to elbow lockout between reps, and you are using the same grip every workout and not mixing up the types of pullups you do.

There are fixes for tendon issues, but they take a while. It is possible to fix. Cortisone shots are a big help. Find a doctor who is 1) male and 2) a fitness/weightlifting enthusiast. Don't go to other types of faggy doctors. Find one that is sympathetic and can understand your problem, then prescribe the types of treatment you need, i.e. frequent cortisone with a PT program. Sorry but I dont have a rehab program for you but there are good ones out there. The forum I gave you above is a good place to start.

[Abe Lincoln]

I would do nuetral grip pull ups, i.e. with your palms facing towards eachother and about 6 inches apart. Dont extend too much past 90 degrees with your elbows either. You could even use one of those machines that you kneel in to take some of the weight off. The nuetral grip takes most of the stress off your elbows and you should be able to do pain free pullups that way. Also I would do sets of 4-5. There is no good reason for you to do 10 or more per set.

[IstillLoveVistaBaby]

Try Therabands, they work great. Also stretch your arm by putting your palm flat against a wall with your arm stretching out from your torso parallel to the ground, then move the palm up slowly to feel a pull on the elbow. Then ice intermittingly. If you deep ice where the elbow bone is you can help the inflammation of the joint greatly. Thirdly apply tiger balm extreme strength. Fourthly massage the area, either by deep tissue or by a roller or both, but don't be too rough. You can also try acupressure. Fifth you need to rest it. You can eventually overcome golfer's/tennis elbow aka tendonitis with all of these or at lease keep the pain to a minimum.

[Vaun]

(05-21-2017 09:43 AM)Abe Lincoln Wrote:  

I would do nuetral grip pull ups, i.e. with your palms facing towards eachother and about 6 inches apart. Dont extend too much past 90 degrees with your elbows either. You could even use one of those machines that you kneel in to take some of the weight off. The nuetral grip takes most of the stress off your elbows and you should be able to do pain free pullups that way. Also I would do sets of 4-5. There is no good reason for you to do 10 or more per set.

How did you come up with this terrible advice, haha??

Narrow grip pull ups are the fastest way to destroy your elbows.

[Steelex]

I have the same problem. Same elbow too. OP can I ask you a few questions?

Which is your dominant hand?

For clarification, what style of exercise are you doing? Palms facing towards you or away? Wide grip? Narrow?

Do you try and bring your chin over the top of the bar?

What type of bar do you use?

[Germanicus]

I've had a similar problem off and on the last couple of years; elbows getting tender after pull-ups or chin-ups.

Something that I researched was trigger points. I had a few lower body issues and I was recommended by a couple knowledgable people to get myself a lacrosse ball and a copy of Claire Davies' book on self-trigger point therapy. Reading through the book I discovered not only help for my ankles and knees, I learned about some other areas too.

https://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-The...1572243759

If your pecs are tight from benching or push-ups, it might not be healthy muscle if they feel rock hard, it could be dysfunction. That's what I discovered on reading Davies' book and poking and prodding my pec muscles. Pecs with trigger points in them can send refered pain to the elbows. It did with me. A daily bit of self-pec massage in the shower and some rolling them with a lacrosse ball 2-4 times a day for several days in a row when my elbows feel sore and it sorts me out.

[Vaun]

(05-21-2017 11:12 AM)Germanicus Wrote:  

I've had a similar problem off and on the last couple of years; elbows getting tender after pull-ups or chin-ups.

Something that I researched was trigger points. I had a few lower body issues and I was recommended by a couple knowledgable to get myself a lacrosse ball and a copy of Claire Davies' book on self-trigger point therapy. Reading through the book I discovered not only help for my ankles and knees, I learned about some other areas too.

https://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-The...1572243759

If your pecs are tight from benching or push-ups, it might not be healthy muscle if they feel rock hard, it could be dysfunction. That's what I discovered on reading Davies' book and poking and prodding my pec muscles. Pecs with trigger points in them can send refered pain to the elbows. It did with me. A daily bit of self-pec massage in the shower and some rolling them with a lacrosse ball 2-4 times a day for several days in a row when my elbows feel sore and it sorts me out.

good post.

Deep tissue massage, ART therapy, fascia work all help too, when you go to someone knowledgable, i.e. sports specific or an athletic massage therapist.

[Truth Tiger]

Early 40s. I personally avoid any cortisone / steroid treatment AT ALL. Side effects can be very nasty. If you google Art de Vany he's an older dude who knows nutrition and exercise. I think he's commented on Mark's Daily Apple. He advocates more natural exercise vs. heavy stuff, especially as you get older. I've been using magnesium / calcium / MSM cocktail at night to help sleep deeply and restore my connective tissue - it's working well, much less pain/discomfort after a long hard day.

I think it's important to realize that overdoing anything is going to cause problems. What we could do in our 20s and recover from overnight or a couple days might take weeks, months, or just create permanent damage. Your diet, supplementation, and sleep regimes really need to be on point especially once you reach 30+. I would also look up the concept of 'biological immortality' which is what I'm aiming for.

I honestly don't do heavy weights much right now and really don't want to get back into it. I think it's an ego game, it's not 'natural' in any sense. I don't see gym sets in archeological digs in Rome, Greece, or India. Look up Dr. Wallach, the longest lived civilizations, and how people can live fit and healthy into older age. Mix up your workout, that's something Art de Vany is a big advocate of. If your knees and back are good, take care of them, but spend time jumping, climbing, etc. in places where you aren't stressing yourself. I'm not a crossfit enthusiast by any means, but I used to play outside as a kid (remember those days?) and did lots of walking uphill. I think it's more important to work your lower body (mindfully) than to focus on exercises that are putting extreme stress on your upper body and connective tissue.

On and you really need to be earthing / grounding after a workout to help your body regulate the immune response (via taking up free electrons)! Look up earthing.com and the DVD 'Grounded.'

Acupuncture, MEDITATION, cupping, massage therapy, cold therapy, juicing, highly absorable vitamins & minerals, top-level antioxidants, essential oils, light box therapy (great thread started by Lizard of Oz), eliminating the 12 bad foods (see my sig) etc. You've GOT to eliminate wheat, dairy, soy, refined oils, blackened & deep fried foods to prevent cancer-causing substances from going into or being formed in your body. There's a great post here on reducing estrogen, restoring testosterone. I haven't gone fully through but he sounds knowledgeable and references studies (which if they're done correctly we can at least trust):

thread-62808...pid1573540

Mike Cernovich's Danger & Play and posts on RVF from a few years ago are a great resource on wellness. But please, stay the fuck away from western witch doctors, they don't tell you side effects, kill far more people than they help, and don't tell you shit about prevention. They're just licensed drug dealers with a very narrow skill set. Naturopaths understand what it takes to let the body heal, from what to do and what not to do. Dr. Wallach is the founding father on this subject. Also look up highly-repped poster Zelcorpion, he's deep into nutrition as well.

Healing is Easy - Dr. Glidden (You Don't Know What You Don't Know)

At least watch the first 10 minutes, but you need to watch all of it. By the way, I only use some Youngevity products as I've tailored my own nutrient mix from NOW, Jarrow, etc.

Listen to your body, it's telling you something. I've made more posts on this topic as have others.

By the way, I've dropped at least 1.5 inches off my waist in the last month simply by cutting out wheat, dairy, soy and more often than not being in bed asleep by midnight. I've purposely done NO extra exercise other than what my mechanically-oriented business requires. I believe that having lower body fat, consistently lower blood sugar, and a natural physique is both healthier and (IMO) more attractive as I age. That's my choice - I'm more mesomorph, stock build and put on muscle easily. I could easily bulk up but I don't want to look like a try-hand older buffed out guy. That's not feeling right for me now. I'm going for a slim waist, natural V look, and taking care of myself from the inside out, minimizing any potential severe damage to my body's structure.

I'm happy to share specifics thoughts via PM if you prefer. Good luck!

[blck]

You can try K-Tape, it act like some antalgic, lowering the pain, it's an alternative if the pain is not yet to the point of giving up...



Also check this vid to see if on how bad movements can hurt your elbows:

[churros]

My routine used to include a lot of pull-ups, until I got nagging pains in my shoulder.

I realised that, when I was tired, my form would be uneven. Maybe this caused it.

But more likely is just repetitive motion. Vary the types of pull-ups you do. Or do fewer weighted pull-ups.

I found this article on the topic.

[Abe Lincoln]

Terrible advice? It's a fact that a nuetral grip (palms facing) puts less stress on the arms. The elbows are part of the arm so that means less stress on the elbows. I would even venture to guess that OP's elbow wasn't aggravated by pullups - it was caused by them.

I personally don't like pullups or chinups because of how they make my elbows feel. The nuetral grip eliminates that. Plus starting from a dead hang puts more stress on the elbow do I avoid doing it. OP wants to continue the pull ups if he can and a nuetral grip is the best solution. You could do a wide or narrow grip with wider stressing the elbows even less. Since it's a home gym I guess OP would have to buy a new pull up bar which will probably be narrow grip.

Here's one of many articles on the nuetral grip pullups:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/tip-do...elbow-pain

[bucky]

(05-21-2017 11:54 AM)Truth Tiger Wrote:  

I could easily bulk up but I don't want to look like a try-hand older buffed out guy. That's not feeling right for me now. I'm going for a slim waist, natural V look, and taking care of myself from the inside out, minimizing any potential severe damage to my body's structure.

I'm happy to share specifics thoughts via PM if you prefer. Good luck!

You make a good point here. I remember I was at a New Years Eve party a few years ago where it just so happened that I was the youngest person there. Obviously, most of the guys were paunchy and out of shape, but what really disturbed me was seeing that the few fit guys over 50 did look a bit like they were trying too hard.

Nevertheless, I persist. One reason is health. I'm not shooting for a bodybuilder look, but muscle is healthy. Also, I find that I can get my wife to put in 60% of the effort I do into fitness, so that's motivation right there.

I appreciate the rest of the advice you and the others gave and will try to take it in as time allows. I did not expect this many responses.

[bucky]

(05-21-2017 02:05 PM)Abe Lincoln Wrote:  

Terrible advice? It's a fact that a nuetral grip (palms facing) puts less stress on the arms. The elbows are part of the arm so that means less stress on the elbows. I would even venture to guess that OP's elbow wasn't aggravated by pullups - it was caused by them.

I personally don't like pullups or chinups because of how they make my elbows feel. The nuetral grip eliminates that. Plus starting from a dead hang puts more stress on the elbow do I avoid doing it. OP wants to continue the pull ups if he can and a nuetral grip is the best solution. You could do a wide or narrow grip with wider stressing the elbows even less. Since it's a home gym I guess OP would have to buy a new pull up bar which will probably be narrow grip.

Here's one of many articles on the nuetral grip pullups:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/tip-do...elbow-pain

I actually like your advice about neutral grip. Seems like it might be easier on the elbows than palms out or palms facing, although that's just me speculating.

I do actually have a doorframe pull-up bar that allows doing palms-facing pull-ups, but since I recently moved to a new house that doesn't have a suitable doorframe. Didn't think about it when looking at the place because I wasn't doing pull-ups at the time. I'm looking into some other kind of pull-up bar now.

As for narrow-grip pull-ups, I've always found them difficult and disliked them, so if a wider grip is better for the elbows, I'll continue to avoid them.

[bucky]

(05-21-2017 10:26 AM)Steelex Wrote:  

I have the same problem. Same elbow too. OP can I ask you a few questions?

Which is your dominant hand?

For clarification, what style of exercise are you doing? Palms facing towards you or away? Wide grip? Narrow?

Do you try and bring your chin over the top of the bar?

What type of bar do you use?

This will sound strange, but I'm not sure what my dominant hand is. I'm left handed, in the sense that I can't write with my right hand, but I do all sports actions (throwing a ball, swinging a bat, etc.) right-handed and can't do them well with my left hand. My guess is that I'm truly left handed, but was taught to play sports right handed when I was a kid. I'm generally stronger in my right arm, but I'm slightly stronger in my left arm on some exercises (curls, I think, but I already can't remember after a month or so of not lifting).

I was doing several variations of pull-ups: palms away, palms facing, chin-ups, sometimes those "v" pull-ups were you alternate pulling your chin to your right wrist, then to your left wrist instead of straight up. I used to do "kipping" sometimes but stopped when the elbow problems started.

I would always at least touch the bar with my chin. Bar was a door frame pull-up bar.

[Vaun]

(05-21-2017 02:05 PM)Abe Lincoln Wrote:  

Terrible advice?

Yes it is. Admitting that you dont even do pullups or chinups, how can we trust your advice? You clearly dont speak from experience, but bro science.

Narrowing the grip of a pullup/chinup fully disengages the lats, and makes the exercise entirely an arm exercise. This is true for any type of grip. Which would naturally lead to the overuse injury like what OP describes.

The only reason to do pullups is to do more pullups, to get a very wide upper body, and extreme v taper with a trim waistline. There is nothing more effective than chins and pullups, then weighted once you can hit sets of 20. Older guys need to take it slower, but go home with the wimpy scare tactics of why people shouldn't do them. Have fun with the runners body Abe.

[Vaun]

(05-21-2017 11:54 AM)Truth Tiger Wrote:  

If you google Art de Vany he's an older dude who knows nutrition and exercise. I think he's commented on Mark's Daily Apple. He advocates more natural exercise vs. heavy stuff, especially as you get older.

Does Art still blog? I can't find his blog anywhere now. I used to read him religiously. He's not a barbell guy for sure, but his general philosophy is very good and I think what Marks Daily Apple based a lot of his knowledge on. I should start reading these guys again.

[Abe Lincoln]

Whoa there Vaun. I'll wager if OP waits until his elbow feels better and then starts again with the hammer fist grip I bet all the pain will go away. Pullups are a great compound movement and he shouldn't quit them unless he has to.

For example I am very strong but regular pullups and chinnups don't jive with me. Yea they are pain free but I don't like how they torque my joints. I read up on the options and that's how I discovered the nuetral grip. Sets of 4-5 is better too. I would do 10 sets of 5 rather than a few sets of 10 or 15 because it's easier on the joints.

Vaun read that article it explains why nuetral grip is the second best thing to rings. It's all about the natural wrist rotation being impinged that leads to pain/injury. Your wrong about a narrow grip 'disengaging' the lats/back. A nuetral grip (narrow grip or not) is MORE lat and back and less arms. That's why it's easier. It engages bigger muscles (back) in favor of the smaller arm muscles. Try them! I do nuetral grip pull ups and not regular which I thought I made clear. When you try them you will notice how much easier they are and how much less they strain your inner elbow.

[king bast]

I like the suggestion of neutral grip, but it's the "don't extend past 90 degrees part" that is awful.

Doing these half-pullups keeps the tendon under strain the whole time. It struck me as odd he's doing 18 chin ups, but never did weighted ones. I would wager that he can do so many becasue he's only doing half-pullups, and that is the source of the aggravation.

Starting from a dead hang doesnt tax the elbow more, not if you start your motion with your lats, as you should.

Rest it until it's better, then start doing full pull ups with a neutral grip and I doubt you'll have a problem.

[Vaun]

(05-21-2017 04:33 PM)Abe Lincoln Wrote:  

Whoa there Vaun. I'll wager if OP waits until his elbow feels better and then starts again with the hammer fist grip I bet all the pain will go away. Pullups are a great compound movement and he shouldn't quit them unless he has to.

For example I am very strong but regular pullups and chinnups don't jive with me. Yea they are pain free but I don't like how they torque my joints. I read up on the options and that's how I discovered the nuetral grip. Sets of 4-5 is better too. I would do 10 sets of 5 rather than a few sets of 10 or 15 because it's easier on the joints.

Vaun read that article it explains why nuetral grip is the second best thing to rings. It's all about the natural wrist rotation being impinged that leads to pain/injury. Your wrong about a narrow grip 'disengaging' the lats/back. A nuetral grip (narrow grip or not) is MORE lat and back and less arms. That's why it's easier. It engages bigger muscles (back) in favor of the smaller arm muscles. Try them! I do nuetral grip pull ups and not regular which I thought I made clear. When you try them you will notice how much easier they are and how much less they strain your inner elbow.

Sorry Abe, you are not qualified to even give advice here. You dont even do pullups, but repost doucey T-Nation articles, and call it experience.

What you wrote above is utterly and completely false. The low amount of half pullups you purport to do would actually make someone more injury prone and more likely to get tendonitis, like what the OP probably has.

Cut with the bro-science. We dont need any more of it. Go back to lurking.

[Steelex]

(05-21-2017 03:33 PM)bucky Wrote:  

(05-21-2017 10:26 AM)Steelex Wrote:  

I have the same problem. Same elbow too. OP can I ask you a few questions?

Which is your dominant hand?

For clarification, what style of exercise are you doing? Palms facing towards you or away? Wide grip? Narrow?

Do you try and bring your chin over the top of the bar?

What type of bar do you use?

This will sound strange, but I'm not sure what my dominant hand is. I'm left handed, in the sense that I can't write with my right hand, but I do all sports actions (throwing a ball, swinging a bat, etc.) right-handed and can't do them well with my left hand. My guess is that I'm truly left handed, but was taught to play sports right handed when I was a kid. I'm generally stronger in my right arm, but I'm slightly stronger in my left arm on some exercises (curls, I think, but I already can't remember after a month or so of not lifting).

I was doing several variations of pull-ups: palms away, palms facing, chin-ups, sometimes those "v" pull-ups were you alternate pulling your chin to your right wrist, then to your left wrist instead of straight up. I used to do "kipping" sometimes but stopped when the elbow problems started.

I would always at least touch the bar with my chin. Bar was a door frame pull-up bar.

A lot of people develope elbow issues doing pull ups (elbows out, palms facing away) because they take the movement further than it needs to go and start to engage the triceps at the top of the movement while also engaging the biceps, in order to sort of do a pull down to get the chin up even higher. This is hard as fuck on your tendons.

Tell me, after you developed the elbow problem do pressing movements hurt your elbows? Cause if so it's from the incorrect and unnecessary engagement of the triceps and brachiallis during the pull.

[bucky]

(05-21-2017 04:42 PM)king bast Wrote:  

I like the suggestion of neutral grip, but it's the "don't extend past 90 degrees part" that is awful.

Doing these half-pullups keeps the tendon under strain the whole time. It struck me as odd he's doing 18 chin ups, but never did weighted ones. I would wager that he can do so many becasue he's only doing half-pullups, and that is the source of the aggravation.

Starting from a dead hang doesnt tax the elbow more, not if you start your motion with your lats, as you should.

Rest it until it's better, then start doing full pull ups with a neutral grip and I doubt you'll have a problem.

No, those were full reps, to a full lockout at the bottom, with good form. This was after my second time through P90X2, a program that flopped for Beachbody although it was actually pretty great.

[bucky]

(05-21-2017 05:07 PM)Steelex Wrote:  

A lot of people develope elbow issues doing pull ups (elbows out, palms facing away) because they take the movement further than it needs to go and start to engage the triceps at the top of the movement while also engaging the biceps, in order to sort of do a pull down to get the chin up even higher. This is hard as fuck on your tendons.

Tell me, after you developed the elbow problem do pressing movements hurt your elbows? Cause if so it's from the incorrect and unnecessary engagement of the triceps and brachiallis during the pull.

Pressing exercises don't seem to aggravate my elbow problem at all. I do bench presses with dumbbells and jerking the weights off the ground and into position can bother my elbow, but the presses themselves don't seem to bother it at all. Same for push-ups, no problems with those at all.

[Abe Lincoln]

If presses don't bother you I think you're elbow is in pretty good shape.

You can do a fuller movement with the nuetral grip basically because you can go higher. If you hold at the highest point your lats are holding nearly all your weight so stay there for a couple seconds. I would also experiment and try reps where you don't start each one with arms fully extended. It's more time under tension but only 4-5 reps. I feel like starting from a full hang especially when doing high reps is more likely to cause arm or shoulder pain. Let us know if a neutral grip solves the issue ...

[Isaac Jordan]

Read the OP and did a ctrl + F on "collagen" and "gelatin" and didn't see anything, so...

OP, get yourself a pound of quality collagen and take two tablespoons twice a day, as well as two in your post-workout shake if you exercised that day.

You should feel results within a week.