[zatara]

Just wanted to pop back in here to say I'm really enjoying your posts here J_Sway and birthday cat. Experienced, measured and intelligent. Exactly what makes the forum great.

[Kwisatz]

I hope everything's still going smoothly! How has the Dianabol impacted our lab work and exams over the long term? Have your doses changed?

(05-14-2017 01:10 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

Under the tutelage of two guys who have been on TRT and anabolics for 10+ years, I started with 150mg once a week through an insulin pin and 20mg of Dianabol 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off. The Dianabol isn’t necessary but I enjoy bodybuilding so the low dosage is sort of a perma-cruise. The gains come on steadily and my body seems to have undergone a major recomposition. 


I’m not suggesting that to anyone, I just want to be honest about what I have been doing with my body as I write this. 



[Fortis]

(09-14-2017 09:05 PM)Kwisatz Wrote:  

I hope everything's still going smoothly! How has the Dianabol impacted our lab work and exams over the long term? Have your doses changed?

(05-14-2017 01:10 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

Under the tutelage of two guys who have been on TRT and anabolics for 10+ years, I started with 150mg once a week through an insulin pin and 20mg of Dianabol 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off. The Dianabol isn’t necessary but I enjoy bodybuilding so the low dosage is sort of a perma-cruise. The gains come on steadily and my body seems to have undergone a major recomposition. 


I’m not suggesting that to anyone, I just want to be honest about what I have been doing with my body as I write this. 



Dbol seems to be fine. My liver values come in completely normal. Nothing looks weird since my last lab test 1 month ago.

I don't fuck with a good thing. I am not going for massive strength goals and I find that 20mg of dianabol + Test U/E, proper sleep, diet and training is more than enough. I was sick for the past week so I dropped dbol and training. I will be resuming the gym fully recuperated tomorrow.

I've measured a little low on weight lately but I imagine that has more to do with dehydration and lack of eating from sickness more than anything.

I am considering adding some HCG to the mix to hedge against depleting sperm count, but I find that my sex drive and everything is fine.

[John Michael Kane]

For those trying to keep their sperm counts up, what are you using and how much? I see HCG in the mix. What has your doctor recommended? I've been on T-cream for a year now and it has helped with energy and building some muscles, a positive for sure. That being said, since being on TRT, my balls have shrunk. I haven't done a sperm count check, but it is a concern as I want to be a father once married. What are the best methods for protecting your balls to keep your future swimmers in healthy shape? I'm about to see the doctor in a few weeks, just want to have my questions prepped.

[Fortis]

I haven't gone on HCG yet and I don't see a doctor for this stuff. Perhaps some of the other men can help you with this question.

[Steelex]

HCG and clomid are the tried and true, but they have side effects too.

Clomid isn't a drug you'd want to take long term, it's just rather shit for you.

I'd reccomend either freezing your sperm or getting your old lady pregnant, and then go ahead and do TRT without taking two more drugs that you don't need.

[BB1]

(09-15-2017 11:41 AM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  

I've been on T-cream for a year now and it has helped with energy and building some muscles, a positive for sure. That being said, since being on TRT, my balls have shrunk. I haven't done a sperm count check, but it is a concern as I want to be a father once married.

JMK, can you please be a bit more specific with the pros of T-cream you have enjoyed over the past year? How do you know it is the cream that responsible?

Thx

[John Michael Kane]

(09-20-2017 02:41 AM)BB1 Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 11:41 AM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  

I've been on T-cream for a year now and it has helped with energy and building some muscles, a positive for sure. That being said, since being on TRT, my balls have shrunk. I haven't done a sperm count check, but it is a concern as I want to be a father once married.

JMK, can you please be a bit more specific with the pros of T-cream you have enjoyed over the past year? How do you know it is the cream that responsible?

Thx

Glad to help.

Pros:

+ Increased muscle mass with similar effort put forth in the gym. Pre-TRT cream I was looking at T-levels around 220, very low! The TRT cream has boosted those numbers to almost quadruple that amount.

+ Less mental fog. When T-levels were low, I felt you do jacking off to porn. Fuzzy and losing your edge. Lack of motivation. Mild depression, even. Once the T-levels were back up, I felt more willing to take on challenges and also call out B.S. when I see it. I lost some meekness that was holding me back from accomplishing better things in life.

+ Better sleep with better T-levels. When you have more energy in the gym, you can push harder, get in a great workout and sleep better as a result.

The only real con was my balls going down in size by about 30-40% in volume. As testicles are irregularly shaped, it is hard to tell the exact amount, I'm just guessing. That being said, I'm more concerned about possible sperm count reduction, as I'm in wife search mode and want to have kids soon. I'm 34 years old.

I'm 100% positive it is the cream causing the ball shrinkage, because whenever you add T produced from outside of your body, your body shuts down a lot of what remaining production you have left. It is a compensating effect. As I didn't have a sperm test done before going on TRT, I can't easily compare before and after for how virile I am.

That being said, I want to protect whatever sperm production is still intact to have children soon. The benefits of TRT have been great, but I also want to make sure I don't reduce or kill off the chance of having my own kids.

[CleanSlate]

(09-20-2017 02:49 AM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  

That being said, I want to protect whatever sperm production is still intact to have children soon. The benefits of TRT have been great, but I also want to make sure I don't reduce or kill off the chance of having my own kids.

Two things.

1. While you are on TRT, you should also inject HCG to keep your balls going while shutdown on exogenous testosterone.

2. When you are ready to have kids, you will want to stop TRT and take Nolvadex (taxomifen) for 1-2 months to jumpstart your HPTA cycle, which tells your testes to start producing more sperm again. Fertility doctors usually prescribe clomid for that, but clomid has estrogenic side effects like mood swings, low libido, etc you don't want. Nolvadex does the same thing as clomid does, except without the sides.

[John Michael Kane]

Thanks for the heads up CS. That's what I'm looking into doing. I have a doctor's appointment soon to discuss all of the above. Time for regular bloodwork to go over everything and I'll report back.

[elsupremo]

Just wanted to add my exp for whoever may be starting TRT and is reading these threads. I've been on TRT for about 2 months and just 2 weeks ago started to feel it.

I first had my free T levels checked about a year ago and my GP doc looked at them and said they were low but that was normal for my age as T levels do go down after their peak in one's mid 20s. I wasn't too convinced with this answer because normal doesn't mean optimal. I had some other complaints which I later self-diagnosed after a lot of research and private lab tests as being sleep apnea and METS both by the way also impact T levels.

I got him to prescribe me a sleep study at a local hospital and sure enough, my apnea was so bad they stopped the testing half way through to fit me with a mask and test me under various pressures I now use a resmed auto cpap machine to great effect.

But this made me re-eval my T scores as this doc was always prescribing stuff for the symptoms of things rather then the causes. He said he'd see me once a month for a shot. By then, I knew this guy didn't know much about a lot of things and was just practicing rx pad medicine because that once a month shot wasn't going to do a f'ing thing.

I did get him to rx me T cream prepared by a compounding pharmacy (yes, its a thing) but got nothing out of it. Fast forward to a year and I'm living in Thailand and thought I'd try again on my own. Its just amazing how much great info - and nonsense- is on the net.

First I had a lab done and when I see the results thought to myself, "Fuck, if these numbers were any lower, I'd be wearing a dress". So I set out to buy some T in Chiang Mai --- which is not as simple as it should be. I buy 10ml bottle of Sustanon 250 which is Test Propionate (not the best ester for a weekly or biweekly user by the way) because it is available and affordable (about 50 usd), 18mm and 25mm needles, syringes, prep pads. I started injecting 1ml per week then moved it up to 1.5 then 1ml 2x a week. Nothing. I then added a 25mg tab of DHEA to the mix and got a bit of a kick- like strong coffee but nothing much.

Then I read on a site with a headline like Injecting T without a aromatase inhibor is a waste of money. So I thought ok, I'll try that. I bought 25mg tablets of Aromasin. I crushed them to make about 5 5mg pieces and then crush these so I can take sublingualy 1 everyday. I was being cautious because these meds aren't like vitamins where if you take too much, your body excretes the extra via piss, etc. Hormones and such, no, your body puts them to work and the half-lives can vary a lot.

OK, after a week of starting the Aromasin and 8 weeks after starting T shots, I'm getting results. I feel 100% better in everyway. Energy. Alertness. Etc.
I'm clearly speculating but I now agree with that headline. Specially if you have METS, specially if you are overweight, or have had low T for a long time , then is seems your body loves to convert T to estrogen - this is 'no bueno'. When you take an aromatose inhibitor, it puts the brake on that process. Now the T stays T and does its work.

For me the results have been great. All the usual expectations met but I'll comment on two:
Decrease in belly fat aka visceral fat. Normally you lose weight from the outside in. Your body hangs on to the belly fat the most. On T, I have lost inches of this fat as well as overall body fat . This is a great stimulus to eat better and exercise more - I am not currently lifting weights.

Horniness- It's great to have morning wood and easy erections but having sex on the brain all the time is distracting. I've also started weaning myself off porn and edging after reading the thread on here and other sites on porn addiction. I can tell you that being on a good TRT regimen doesn't make it any easier!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2_Mn-qRKjA Horseman Jack - It Gets Easier

[birthday cat]

^^^ No offense to elsupremo but he is misguided on most of this. If you are on TRT or considering TRT then I suggest ignoring that post. It's a good example of why most guys should work with a knowledgeable doctor who specializes in TRT for a year before self-administering.

I'm not going to cover everything that is wrong but here are a few things.

1) Sustanon is not Propionate. Sustanon is a blend that contains a small amount of Propionate. Maybe 10%.

2) "Injecting T without an aromatase inhibitor is a waste of money." Wrong. The need for an aromatase inhibitor is going to vary widely for different guys but many guys won't need it especially if you are keeping your testosterone levels in the natural range and not taking other things like HCG.

3) One of the biggest errors that new guys make is not being patient enough. It takes time for the testosterone levels to stabilize (about 6 to 8 weeks for enanthate or cypionate, maybe longer for sustanon). It takes weeks or months or even years for your body to stabilize after being on testosterone. Changing your protocol (testosterone or aromatase inhibitor or anything) after a few weeks because you didn't feel anything is precisely the wrong thing to do. This could not be more wrong and possibly dangerous.

The appropriate way to to start TRT is to work with someone who knows what they are doing. If you insist on self-administering then start with a low or moderate dosage like 100mg per week (split into multiple injections per week) and get blood tests done 2 to 3 months later. I suggest 3 months if you have no side effects. Wait until you have been on a good and consistent protocol for 6 months before spending so much time analyzing the benefits of TRT for you. New guys treat TRT like a 40m sprint when it is more like an ultra-marathon. How you feel after a few weeks is essentially irrelevant because it takes more time than that for things to stabilize.

If you are saying things like "I've been on TRT for about 2 months and just 2 weeks ago started to feel it" and "For me the results have been great" then you have a complete misunderstanding of what TRT is and how it is supposed to work.

[elsupremo]

I certainly think Birthday Cat has every right to his OPINIONS, I didn't read any reason why his opinions, while well meaning, represent any particular authority or correctness other than what he is repeating from his interpretations of what he' s read elsewhere (unless he himself is a board certified endocrinologist and author of peer reviewed publications on the subject).

1. Sustanon - you are right that it is not Propionate. Each ml of Sustanon contains 30mg of propionate, 60 each od isocaproate and phenylpropionate. 100mg of decanoate. From my research: Test is test. The various esters affect absorption in different ways but are NOT determinate. Including propionate.
2. If you reread my post I said that it appears - again from a lot of reading of studies and pages by MDs and PhDs -not 'broscientists'- that men with those mentioned existing conditions prior to starting TRT may benefit from aromatase inhibitors as part of their TRT. I found this to be the case for me.
3. Some of these statements are not of any documented double blind studied fact but BC's opinions and some approach hysteria.

If you read the studies, you will find that response times to TRT are all over the place. There are many factors which determine how soon effects are felt.
I would agree that going slow is to be advised -- and I DID write that along with a warning that hormones are not vitamins.

Whether you should wait 6 months to assess the efficacy of one's regimen, is debatable and to me seems excessive. Also, the idea he writes that it could take YEARS for your body to 'stabilize' is, IMO, just over the top.
I don't doubt that BC is well intentioned but is no more an authority on TRT than I am-- unless he wishes to document otherwise.

I would suggest to BC and others that if you're in a situation or country where you have a KNOWLEDGEABLE doctor or clinic that can guide your therapy regimen and who is willing to follow your case closely, then that's the default.
Otherwise, do your own research if you're educated enough to do so. Pay for your own labs, learn how to interpret the numbers. In the end, it's your body:

Do your own investigating and come to your own conclusions.

[doc holliday]

I'd say Birthday Cat pretty much nailed it to be honest. I've been on TRT for 2.5 years and it did take me a good 8-9 months of trial and error to get a dose and routine nailed down. Best way to do this is with a TRT doc, using US Pharmacopeia grade Testosterone who will give you an Aromatase inhibitor if needed along with HCG to keep the testicles inflated. Patience is definitely in order with TRT and everyone's body does react differently which is another reason using a TRT doc is very helpful. Urging people to just wing it isn't such great advice.

[birthday cat]

The reason I've consistently pointed out errors in posts about TRT and linked to various resources outside of this forum is because I believe this is probably the best way I can contribute to this forum because there is so much misinformation about TRT. There are also many guys who are self-administering in ways that aren't congruent with the results they want or in ways that could be dangerous to their long term health.

I've probably done more research on this subject in the last two years than anyone on this forum other than a well respected guy who I agree with 99% of the time. Most of the things I've written are either facts or they are my opinions that happen to be the same opinions as top experts such as Dr. Crisler, Dr. Saya, and Nelson Vergel.

If anyone disagrees with anything from the many posts I've made about TRT then tell me what you disagree with and I'll take the time (within reason) to dig up the sources of information that back up the facts or explain why I have an opinion which is almost always the same as the opinion of someone who is considered an expert on TRT.

I'll try to separate some of the facts and opinions from my most recent post.

OPINION - Most guys should work with a knowledgeable doctor who specializes in TRT for a year before self-administering. This is based on the countless misinformed posts about TRT on this forum. There are several guys on this forum who know TRT well and most of us have expressed our frustration at various times about the inaccurate information that is written about this subject. You could have someone experienced with TRT coach you but it's my opinion that a doctor is better for several reasons. (1)There is a consistent pattern of both new guys and experienced guys over-estimating their knowledge on this subject. (2)Using a doctor is probably going to force you to have more patience. He isn't going to let you change protocols every few weeks. (3)Most self-administering guys start with high dosages without ever experimenting with lower dosages. It is my opinion that many of these guys would find those high dosages unnecessary if they had some experience with lower dosages (especially with high injection frequencies) and understood how effective those lower dosages could be. (FACT)Two of the most experienced TRT doctors in the world typically start their patients off at 60mg per week and 80mg per week but many self-administering guys that I know started off at 250mg per week or higher...about 300% to 400% higher. I don't know if doc holliday uses one of those two doctors but his doctor uses a similar protocol. (FACT)I've made almost all of the mistakes I've mentioned so far so I've got some experience to back up my opinions. (FACT)You can work with either Dr. Crisler or Dr. Saya remotely.

FACT - Sustanon is not Propionate and this is important. They have very different half lives. According to this source Propionate's half-life is 2 to 4.5 days and Sustanon is on the opposite end of the spectrum at 15 days. This is very important when considering injection frequency. It could also be important in regards to aromatase inhibitors. Most guys taking Propionate inject very frequently such as every other day or daily but if you injected only once a week (which is common for Sustanon) then it is likely that you would have estrogen issues and incorrectly think you need an aromatase inhibitor when you really just needed to inject more frequently. There are many guys including myself, other RVF members, and many guys on various TRT forums who have reduced or eliminated the need for aromatase inhibitors by increasing injection frequency. It's a somewhat new technique but it is becoming more of a common practice.

FACT - Aromatase inhibitors are not necessary in many cases. (1)There is one doctor with many youtube videos who I believe always uses aromatase inhibitors but there are more experienced doctors who never use them. I don't remember the doctor's names but I could find them. (2)There are at least two guys on this forum with a lot of experience doing very high dosages of test (500mg - 1000mg week) without needing aromatase inhibitors even though it is much more likely that someone would need an aromatase inhibitor at a high dosage than a low dosage. (3) Nelson Vergel of Excel Male is constantly reminding everyone that men need some estrogen, aromatase inhibitors are over-prescribed, and guys shouldn't take aromatase inhibitors until they have taken their test injections for a while and determined that they really need the ai. (4)The logic just doesn't work out either. It's mostly excess testosterone that converts into estrogen so if you aren't putting your testosterone levels above natural levels then why would your estrogen levels go above natural. I'm not saying it never happens but there are many cases when it doesn't happen (especially with high injection frequency and without HCG). I think it's fair to call this a fact when just about everyone agrees except one doctor on youtube.

OPINION - Wait 6 months to assess the efficacy of TRT for yourself and your protocol. Obviously this should be done within reason, i.e. you shouldn't ignore side effects. My opinion is based somewhat on this forum post on Excel Male - quality of life improvements take 3 to 6 months but maximum benefits take longer. My opinion is also based somewhat on the very frequent occurrence of guys over-analyzing things when they are new to TRT. One example is multiple guys on this forum who have reported changing their dosages after a couple weeks because they didn't feel anything significant. These guys don't understand that it takes 6+ weeks for blood levels to stabilize with test-cypionate or test-enanthate. Another example is when a guy freaks out over something that happens only once (such as not getting a full erection on only one night with a girl) and then asking everyone a million questions about he is doing wrong. He probably isn't doing anything wrong...TRT is not the cause of everything and guys just need to be patient.

FACT - It takes 6+ weeks for blood levels to stabilize with test-cypionate or test-enanthate so it's not logical to change protocols every few weeks and you can't make accurate assessments regarding the effects of a dosage when you change protocols this frequently. It might be possible for blood levels to stabilize a little faster because it varies by individual but it is probably more likely to take more time than less time. You simply cannot take these esters for a couple weeks and determine the long term effects of your dosage. This should be common knowledge. There is no need for a study to prove that something with an 8 or 10 day half-life isn't going to be instantaneously absorbed by your body. Do a google search on "front loading" and you can find the math behind how and why it takes 6+ weeks. You could also ask any TRT doctor why they typically wait at least 6 weeks to do blood tests.

[Fortis]

agreed with BC. Find a doctor and do it the right way. I believe i said that in the beginning of this thread.

[doc holliday]

So I just had my latest BW come back. I've been doing 160mg/week now for the last year and my total T is around 700 but my free T is at 26 which is a bit higher than the range. My estrogen since I've been on Arimidex is at 5 which is way low. A year ago my estrogen was at 60 which is way high. My estrogen fluctuates a lot but fortunately, I don't seem to suffer much effects from such fluctuations in my E but I've always had trouble keeping my E levels at an even keel. I feel good overall, good solid gains in the gym, good sex and good energy. Might see if I can get my doc to bump me up just a tad to get my total T a little higher, say to 800 but I'm not sure he'll do it since my free T is at the high end.

BC I use Primebody out of Arizona and they have a Dr contracted locally that I can consult if need be. If for some reason I needed to change, I'd go to Dr. Saya or Dr. Crisler, those guys are the deans of this field for sure.

[Fortis]

I changed my protocol recently:

The total dosage is the same, but I'm doing 3 times a week and i've added in HCG as well. Feeling godly. Haven't hit dips in mood or anything in a while. I've been off the Dbol for a while as well, but still feeling great and still strong as an ox. I might start up on anavar to acquire some more hardness (I'm cutting), but overall i'm happy with my physique. I'm down in size, but my looking within "shredded" range and happy. The only downside is that my libido is through the damn roof moreso than it was when I first started. Luckily, I have regulars to come over and take care of me.

I figure I'll gun for 80kg after summer is over. 176 pounds at a low body fat would put me in jacked range while still allowing me to look good suited up.

[thebassist]

(03-29-2018 10:00 PM)Fortis Wrote:  

I changed my protocol recently:

The total dosage is the same, but I'm doing 3 times a week and i've added in HCG as well. Feeling godly. Haven't hit dips in mood or anything in a while. I've been off the Dbol for a while as well, but still feeling great and still strong as an ox. I might start up on anavar to acquire some more hardness (I'm cutting), but overall i'm happy with my physique. I'm down in size, but my looking within "shredded" range and happy. The only downside is that my libido is through the damn roof moreso than it was when I first started. Luckily, I have regulars to come over and take care of me.

I figure I'll gun for 80kg after summer is over. 176 pounds at a low body fat would put me in jacked range while still allowing me to look good suited up.

Have you been running steady TRT-level doses or are you blasting and cruising? Just curious.

[crispytaco]

That´s why it is important to do the labs. They will tell you if you need ot not aromastase inhibitor. The goal is to have the Estradiol between 15 - 25 pg/ml, but even 35 is still within the range.

[Fortis]

I do agree. Paying closer attention to my labs would have helped me anticipate this problem as opposed to having it sneak up on me. I got labs back a while ago and I came back with really Low-E, lower than the suggested levels you listed, but I never had any issues until recently.

I run steady TRT dosages year round. I've considered blasting and cruising, but I currently don't have the time to take advantage of suprahuman dosages because my sleep schedule has been fucked up and I'm busy.

[Konstantin]

Fortis, Thanks for this man. I just started my first month of TRT and I have the same feeling that you described.
Poking myself in the stomach and asking: "Is this thing even working?".

I am getting my lab results in 2 weeks, so feeling awesome seeing the results.

[Konstantin]

(05-01-2018 06:59 AM)Konstantin Wrote:  

Fortis, Thanks for this man. I just started my first month of TRT and I have the same feeling that you described.
Poking myself in the stomach and asking: "Is this thing even working?".

I am getting my lab results in 2 weeks, so feeling awesome seeing the results.

What's up guys. Just want to jump in and give an update on my 4-month progress of TRT.
My story was similar to the one described by Fortis, low testosterone, skinny fat, mental fog.
Maybe there are some guys who are on the fence and wanted as much info as possible. So if this info helps, glad I could help out.

The first 6 weeks my protocol was simple 60mg of Test E twice a week. The first month you have zero confidence that this stuff is even working. You feel the same and notice little change.

As week 7-8 rolled in, I started feeling a mental clarity which I haven't felt in years. Making decisions was now something easy. My sense of responsibility and ownership reached hights which I didn't know existed. I stopped blaming people and basically stopped being a little bitch.

Currently, I am 4 months into TRT. Feeling like a champion. My weight went from 69kg to 82kg. The gym has become a discipline rather than a hobby. My mental clarity is higher than its ever been. My mood has also improved a lot. I seem always cheery .

Negatives?

No, not everything is great.
1: Injecting myself has become a habit, but it is still a drag. Luckily I load up 4-6 syringes at once so I have a supply for a couple of weeks.
2: Nailing your correct values can be tricky. I actually had to lower my shot dosage to 40mg per shot because my total testosterone was 1500. Going to the lab takes time and is annoying.
3: Easy to spiral out of control. I don't suffer from this, but I can see how easy it would be to go crazy with the dosages and overdo it. I got a friend who is on 1800 total testosterone all year round, who thinks this is totally fine.
4: Sex drive. I was no slouch when it came to sex before I went on TRT. Well, now it feels like a hungry kid I have to feed all the time. Meditation has helped ease this out a bit.
5. Travelling while on TRT can be a pain in the ass. Taking small quantities is not a problem, but explaining a year supply worth of testosterone to the customs is another story. Also, it just takes you out of your pinning routine, which makes the whole thing into a bit of a drag.
6. You're never going off.

Is it worth it?

Considering my personal growth for the short time I was on TRT, I would do it all over again. Even if TRT had no fitness effects on my body, I would still do it for the mental clarity alone.
I recommend everyone getting their blood work done to have an idea where they stand.
I don't recommend TRT for everyone. TRT remains the last solution.
Before going on, ask yourself the following questions:
Am I working out consistently?
Is my diet on point?
Am I getting enough sleep?
Am I managing my stress levels?
Are my other hormones in check? (thyroid,...)

Would like to say thank you to all the contributors in this thread.

Especially a big thanks to Fortis, if it wasn't for his post, I would not have been the guy I am today, thanks.

[Fortis]

Always happy to read stuff like this in the thread. Awesome work, Konstantin.

[MrTickle]

Good stuff Konstantin. I am about 60 days into TRT myself. Like you, it has been positive, but suspect I have some tweaking to do. Libido is good and gains in lifting are great. Mental clarity not so much but I need a longer time frame to judge.