[kaotic]

I've been lifting for quite some time but, I feel like I've plateaued and noticed a little stubborn belly fat, but I can tell I've grown a bit from last year.

Time to take it another level.

I also feel like I'm overexercising and doing too many workouts.

I'm going to post my routine first then, I'll write about my diet in a separate post on this thread.

I'd appreciate any and all feedback on my exercises, diet, and anything else.

Workout (About 2 hours at the gym):

Monday

Chest

-Dumbbell flat bench press (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Incline dumbbell bench press (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Flat Dumbbell flys (3 sets 6-8 reps)(1 set inner dumbbell flys)
-Incline Dumbbell flys (3 sets 6-8 reps)(1 set inner dumbbell flys)
-Free Motion Dual Cable High Fly (3 sets 6-8 reps)
-Free Motion Dual Cable Regular Fly (3 sets 6-8 reps)
-Free Motion Dual Cable Low Fly (3 sets 6-8 reps)
-Iso Machine Inner Chest (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Iso Cable Inner Chest (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-I might do a few more workouts, but more rarely.

Triceps:

-High Pulley Extension Flat Bar (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-High Pulley Extension Rope (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-High Pulley Overhead Extension Flat Bar (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-High Pulley Overhead Extension Rope (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Double Pulley Extension Flat Bar (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Double Pulley Extension Rope (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Double Pulley Overhead Extension Flat Bar (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Double Pulley Overhead Extension Rope (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Overhead bench skull crushers (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Dips (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Pushups to burnout (AMRAP)


Tuesday:

Back:

-Semi Wide Grip Lat Pull Down (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Semi Wide Underhand Grip Lat Pull Down (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Close Grip V Bar Lat Pull Down (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Wide Bar Straight Arm Double Pulley Pull Down (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Iso Lateral Front Pulldown Machine (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Iso Lateral High Row Pulldown Machine (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Seated V Bar Cable Rows (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Seated Flat Bar Bench Rows (3 sets 6-8 reps)
-Seated Wide Bar Bench Rows (3 sets 6-8 reps)
-Seated Weight Row Machine (4 sets 6-8 reps)

Biceps:

-Seated Incline Dumbbell Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Standing Dumbbell Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Seated Iso Lateral Dumbbell Preacher Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Standing Dumbbell Hammer Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Standing Dumbbell Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Free Motion Dual Cable Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)


Wednesday:

Shoulders:

-Seated Dumbbell Shoulder Press (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Side Lateral Dumbbell Raises (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Front Lateral Dumbbell Raises (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Standing Barbell Shoulder Press (4 sets 6-8 reps)(switch 2 for behind neck press)

Trapezoids:

-Seated Dumbbell Shrugs (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Standing Barbell Shrugs (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Standing 45 Plate Shrugs (4 sets 6-8 reps)


Thursday:

Legs:

-Squats (6-10 sets pyramid style) or (10 sets x10 reps)
-Dead Lifts (6-10 sets pyramid style)
-45 Degree leg press (6-10 sets 4-8 reps)
-Seated Leg Extension (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Seated Iso Lateral Leg Extension (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Seated Hamstring Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Lying Hamstring Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Standing Shoulder Machine Calf Raises (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Seated Calf Raies (4 sets 6-8 reps)


Friday:

Triceps:

-High Pulley Extension Flat Bar (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-High Pulley Extension Rope (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-High Pulley Overhead Extension Flat Bar (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-High Pulley Overhead Extension Rope (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Double Pulley Extension Flat Bar (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Double Pulley Extension Rope (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Double Pulley Overhead Extension Flat Bar (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Double Pulley Overhead Extension Rope (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Overhead bench skull crushers (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Dips (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Pushups to burnout (AMRAP)

Biceps:

-Seated Incline Dumbbell Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Standing Dumbbell Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Seated Iso Lateral Dumbbell Preacher Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Standing Dumbbell Hammer Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Standing Dumbbell Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Free Motion Dual Cable Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)


Cardio:

-Not much try for 2-3 times a week
-Stationary spin bike 20-30 minutes
-Row machine 20-30 minutes


Stretching:

I don’t do much stretching except usually for before leg day.

[kaotic]

Basic Stats:

Height: 5'8"
Weight: 165-170 Lb's
Body Fat: Estimated 17%-20% using comparison photos

This is my current diet: (Which was put together by a former bodybuilding trainer)


8:30AM

2 whole eggs

4 egg whites

Mixed with a cup of spinach

2 pieces of whole wheat toast with butter


10 AM

1.5 scoops NOW Nutrition Isolated Whey Protein

1 tbsp Raw Almond Butter



12 PM

1 1/2 cups (estimated) organic Shredded Chicken

1 cup of organic Broccoli

1 tbsp healthy oils (Coconut oil)

2 Fish oil Capsules



3PM

1 1/2 cups (estimated) organic Shredded Chicken

1 cup of Broccoli


4PM

small sweet potato (5-6oz)

1/4 avocado (I currently am not eating this



5PM Pre Gym

1.5 Scoops NOW Isolated Whey

1 banana (not eating this right now)

1 spoon of BCAA

1 spoon of Creatine

1 Small tea spoon of Pre Workout



7:30PM Post Gym

1.5 Scoops NOW Isolated Whey

16oz gatorade (quick carbs)

1 spoon of BCAA

1 spoon of Creatine



8:00 PM (When I get home)

Chipotle – White Rice, Chicken, easy medium salsa.



Before Bed (rarely) (currently not doing this)

1.5 Scoops NOW Isolated Whey

1 tbsp peanut butter

[Fortis]

Can't really critique your program. Looks a bit volume heavy, but I would invest in some tape and calipers to start tracking your body fat. It's a consistent (and cheap) way to track how your training is going.

[kinjutsu]

What are your fitness goals Kaotic?

For the amount of volume you're doing each workout I'm thinking your goal might be to get jacked or at least have more muscle in general.
The problem i see is the amount of volume you're hitting each area which means you're probably using lighter weights. Nothing wrong with that but with this amount of volume you're not lifting with intensity. Or you're waiting for too long between sets/lifts for there to be any progress.
I don't see any rear delt work on your lost.
Avoid dips of any kind, They put you're shoulder girdle ina very very bad position and can potentially cause you plenty of pain in the future. There plenty of other ways to hit that group.
You don't need both sitting and standing variations of the same movement. Pick one. They both do the same thing for your body.

For example lets take the biceps on Tuesday:

Biceps:

-Seated Incline Dumbbell Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Standing Dumbbell Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Seated Iso Lateral Dumbbell Preacher Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Standing Dumbbell Hammer Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Standing Dumbbell Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)
-Free Motion Dual Cable Curls (4 sets 6-8 reps)


Why do you have "Standing dumbell curls" twice on the same day? You should only be doing the lift/movement once per workout day for that body part.
Also when i hit biceps i can barely pick up the weight after my 3rd lift.

My bicep workout is:
-Drag curl 4 sets with the first 3 sets i go to 10 reps and the last set i go to failure.
-Barbell bicep curls (drop sets) 4 sets. I start at 100lbs and drop 10lbs. Each set is to failure. So 1st set is 100lbs for 10 reps and then remove 10lbs and the 2nd set is 90lbs for around 10 reps. By the time i get to 70lbs i can barely get 12 reps. Once i start being able to 11 or 12 reps consistently I'll add 5lbs to the beginning of the lift.
-Lastly i do chin-up bar hangs. I hang from a chin-up bar and bend my elbows at 90 degrees. I hold this position for as long as i possibly can. Once i get stronger I'll do chin-up reps and pauses. So I'll hold for 30 seconds and then do as many chin-ups as i can and then hold again. This is done till i can't do anymore.
This bicep workout takes me around 12-14 minutes. I hit my biceps 3 times a week.
My average time for each workout is about 50 min to an hour.

With all of this volume I'm concerned that you're recovery might not be where it should be in regards to the frequency.
Normally you hit each body part twice a week with about 48-72hours recovery.
Legs you only need to hit once a week because of the muscle size and neurological system recruitment. (You use a ton of energy and your body has to get a lot of your body involved to do legs so it needs longer to recovery so you can train optimally)

Ideally it should look something like this.

Monday:
Chest and Triceps = Maximum of 10 lifts split between both groups.
Tuesday:
Back and Biceps = Maximum of 10 lifts split between both groups.
Wednesday:
Legs and Traps/shoulders = Maximum of 12 lifts split between both groups.
Thursday:
Repeat Monday
Friday:
Repeat Tuesday
Saturday:
Cardio if needed.

So Monday would be something like

Flat bench press 4 sets 8 reps, last set till failure.
Landmine press same set and rep range as bench. (This works the upper chest and hits front delts as well)
Decline dumbell press same set and rep range as bench
Cable flys You can either stick with the same rep and set range or go for drop sets here. Never go past 4 or 5 sets, you'll do too much damage to the muscle and make recovery more difficult.

Tricep push downs 4 sets max of 12 reps. If you can do more increase the weight. With most of the smaller muscles lifts a max or 12 reps is great for size growth.
Crossover tricep extensions. Same deal as above.
Push ups till burnout.

I'm hitting all the different angles for each group and I'm bringing them to failure to stimulate growth.

To anyone who says this isn't enough to get big please remember real life isn't a CT Fletcher youtube video. Most of those guys are enhanced so they can lift like that and recover like nothing. You will tear muscles and hurt yourself badly if you copy guys super intense guys like those without enhancement.

[king bast]

Quote:

I also feel like I'm overexercising and doing too many workouts.

You got that right. Just on monday there is over 70 sets, with half of those targetting a relatively small muscle in the triceps. If your triceps can handle 40 sets after a chest workout, your sets just aren't taxing enough.

To give you some perspective, a typical chest workout for me would have between 10-20 sets, spread over 1-3 exercises. Typically I'll lift 5 or 6 days a week with workouts based around:

bench
Overhead press
deadlift
squat
overall (kettlebells, farmers walks, rack pulls, any weak spots)

each workout has the main exercise, usually a second similar exercise, and maybe a third assistance exercise.

My chest day looks something like this:

Bench press - 1x8, 3x5, 1x3, 3x5, 1x max
Dips - 3x5

After that, I don't feel the need for assistance work on my triceps, but sometimes I might add a few sets of assistance work afterwards.

I personally like the pyramid structure because you warm up while you work, and gradually decrease the weight as you fatigue. It's a pretty efficient way of training, my workouts only go 30 -60 minutes.

The other big thing I noticed is that you're doing biceps and triceps 2x a week, and your bigger groups only once. That might be OK for a week or two if you want to bring those parts up, but it's not ideal for overall size or strength gains, and it's not sustainable long term.

[Akwesi]

The volume seems excessive. You're doing more than 70 sets on Monday alone! How long does it take you to get through the workout? Far too long, I would think. Not sure anything beyond 25 sets in a workout, and an hour spent in the gym, is going to have any real marginal utility - especially as you are presumably lifting for health, fitness, and esthetics.

[H1N1]

If I were to set out to torture myself, it might look a lot like this.

You've got a crazy routine, and crazy diet. What is your goal? If it is just to be a decently muscular, in shape, healthy dude, then you can throw out 90% of this, do something that doesn't suck, and free up a lot of time for more enriching pursuits (unless you really love doing cable flies).

That diet alone has you eating 8-9 times a day. Unless you want to be Mr. Banana Hammock USA, that is a thoroughly unenjoyable and futile way of spending a life.

More importantly, if your goal is to be anything other than a normal dude in decent shape, then that diet is failing you. You could get the same results on 3 balanced meals/day.

Let us know what your goals are, and we can probably get you doing something more suitable.

[SegaSaturn1994]

If that works for you great, but I would use fewer splits and far less volume and exercises.

I don't know you so I'm not going to pretend to know how you train but I'd keep an eye on the following mistakes:

-warming up for too long; are many of your sets warm-ups where you slowly climb towards your max weight? While this is common procedure, there's a very real danger that you're using sloppy form when lifting lighter weights and are fatiguing your muscles with girly weights in anticipation of the weights that truly cause you to push yourself and activate the fast twitch fibers used in maximum grinding.
I personally move to max weights (for sets obviously, not singles) as soon as I can so as to conserve energy for the lifts that are supposed to simulate growth.

-overt reliance on machines: nothing inherently wrong with machines but if you switch gyms or machines, the build-up and the leverages may be slightly different and throw you off. There's also a very common problem of not being able to increase the weight incrementally enough when using machines. This is why I may increase weights as little as one pound per workout (there are microplates for this) even for bilateral lifts.

-not keeping a log: this should be self-explanatory but also the biggest mistake you can ever make. Track your weights in each exercise; the amount of sets is not that important.

-you're seemingly not doing any forearm exercises: start doing wrist curls for both extensors and flexors. If you're really ambitious, do lifts for pronators and supinators too

-training your biceps, trapezoids and the whole back during one single day would make sense; there's enormous overlap between these muscles. Just train your heavier pulling movements before training your biceps (and forearms). Just don't fall into the trap of dismissing muscle specific training completely.

-do you use weight for your dips? If not, you won't get any bigger or stronger.

-your tricep days include tons of lat and even chest activation in addition to other irrelevant muscles. This is something you'll have to figure out for yourself; some exercises, like the pullover, work pressing and pulling muscles at the same time.
You may not always have the ideal split and some muscles may be at risk of being overly burdened but they'll adapt or they won't. See it for yourself but don't jump around from one split or schedule to another randomly; wait it out and see if you make progress.

[MiscBrah]

I'm with H1N1. A 1x week bodypart split is not going to be very effective for either strength or size. Please read this http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-...ains.html/

I'd suggest following some sort of full body 3x week or Lyle McDonald's Generic Bulking Routine which is a 4x week Upper/Lower split.

Its sad that it took me years to realize this simple truth. The best programs written by the best coaches are available for free online. SS, Madcow, Bill Starr, Greyskull, ICF, GBR, etc.

If you want to focus on gaining size, I would suggest you cut down to 10-12% bf and then focus on doing a slow bulk. You'll get much better nutrient partitioning if you're lean.

[Eddie Winslow]

(01-25-2017 06:28 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

If I were to set out to torture myself, it might look a lot like this.

You've got a crazy routine, and crazy diet. What is your goal? If it is just to be a decently muscular, in shape, healthy dude, then you can throw out 90% of this, do something that doesn't suck, and free up a lot of time for more enriching pursuits (unless you really love doing cable flies).

That diet alone has you eating 8-9 times a day. Unless you want to be Mr. Banana Hammock USA, that is a thoroughly unenjoyable and futile way of spending a life.

More importantly, if your goal is to be anything other than a normal dude in decent shape, then that diet is failing you. You could get the same results on 3 balanced meals/day.

Let us know what your goals are, and we can probably get you doing something more suitable.

Before I saw H1N1's response, I immediately asked the same question to myself about what your goals were.

Also, I don't know you personally, but I read enough of your posts to know that you are not including an important part of your diet: alcohol. If you're going out on drink dates 3-4+ times a week and having 2-3+ drinks each time, that is a shit ton of alcohol and has got to be killing your gym progress and your sleep cycle.

I'm 29 which I think is roughly your age. I've been lifting since I was a freshman in high school. I also drank like a frat boy and ate like shit from 18-28. No matter how often or hard I went in the gym, I had plateaus that lasted YEARS on my strength and size. It was very frustrating to say the least.

Only in the past 12 months have I significantly cut down my drinking, and only in the past 3 months have I been truly conscious about my calorie and food quality intake. My progress has been amazing lately and I feel more energetic than I did at 22.

Your workouts are very high volume, I imagine they take 75+ minutes** every day. The diet looks great nutritionally but it can't possibly be enjoyable or convenient; it takes real discipline to eat like that day in and day out. You are dedicating a LOT of your time and self-discipline (also a limited resource) to your physique; a lot of it is for naught because of your drinking. I would strongly consider cutting back on the dating or at least the reliance on alcohol dates. I know this is not fun and definitely easier said than done, but if you are serious enough about your physique to even make this post, it needs to happen.

EDIT**: Two hours!?? Dude..if you have a normal job and are really spending that much time in the gym, you can't have time or energy for much more than gym and dates. You are making your physique your life's work with this kind of dedication. If you're spending 10 HOURS a week lifting weights, you are committing a felony against yourself and sabotaging your life's work by drinking AT ALL. I would seriously think about your fitness and life goals. Please understand that is not an attack and meant to be constructive.

[Tex]

(01-25-2017 06:28 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

If I were to set out to torture myself, it might look a lot like this.

You've got a crazy routine, and crazy diet. What is your goal? If it is just to be a decently muscular, in shape, healthy dude, then you can throw out 90% of this, do something that doesn't suck, and free up a lot of time for more enriching pursuits (unless you really love doing cable flies).

I agree the routine is insane, and the splits are misleading. For example, you say you're doing chest on Monday but you're doing push-ups and dips on Friday and then overheads on Wednesday, which all hit your chest.

Then you do a million variations of basically the same movement, like curls.

I still I say go for it until you get tired of it (which hopefully is soon). It seems horrible and not time efficient at all, but half the fun is going in and torturing yourself sometimes. Still, you can streamline this a lot and eliminate your plateau in the process.

[Kieran]

(01-25-2017 10:38 AM)MiscBrah Wrote:  

I'm with H1N1. A 1x week bodypart split is not going to be very effective for either strength or size. Please read this http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-...ains.html/

I'd suggest following some sort of full body 3x week or Lyle McDonald's Generic Bulking Routine which is a 4x week Upper/Lower split.

Its sad that it took me years to realize this simple truth. The best programs written by the best coaches are available for free online. SS, Madcow, Bill Starr, Greyskull, ICF, GBR, etc.

If you want to focus on gaining size, I would suggest you cut down to 10-12% bf and then focus on doing a slow bulk. You'll get much better nutrient partitioning if you're lean.

I'd take Lyle McDonald's GBR over any of the full body routines. It's one of the better beginner / intermediate programs around in my opinion.

[Atlanta Man]

How are you sleeping? Are you using super light weights for pushing past limits(example bench press limit 315lb, so add a 2.5lb plate x2 to push out 320)? Have you considered the Stairmaster for cardio to increace your conditioning?

[kaotic]

This is the exact reasons I wanted to post this - so it could be criticized and corrected.

I appreciate the comments, I'm going to reply to all of them now.

When I first started working out about 10 years ago I was 130LB's wet, I wanted to get bigger, now I'm 30Lb's + more - now I wanted to put on more muscle and get as jacked as I can naturally without enhancements.

I am a hard gainer, and definitely on the ectomorph side of things.

I honestly figured I was already doing to much, I cut a few workouts out, I noticed my time in the gym dropped by at least 15 minutes, so 1 hour 45 minutes,

(01-25-2017 04:34 AM)kinjutsu Wrote:  

What are your fitness goals Kaotic?

For the amount of volume you're doing each workout I'm thinking your goal might be to get jacked or at least have more muscle in general.
The problem i see is the amount of volume you're hitting each area which means you're probably using lighter weights. Nothing wrong with that but with this amount of volume you're not lifting with intensity. Or you're waiting for too long between sets/lifts for there to be any progress.
I don't see any rear delt work on your lost.

Correct I do want to get jacked, and I agree if I lowered the volume and upped the weight it would probably help alot.

I wait about 45-60 seconds between sets.

I actually forgot I use the iso fly machine for rear delts.

Quote:

Avoid dips of any kind, They put you're shoulder girdle ina very very bad position and can potentially cause you plenty of pain in the future. There plenty of other ways to hit that group.
You don't need both sitting and standing variations of the same movement. Pick one. They both do the same thing for your body.

I can alternate standing and sitting every other week, that makes sense.

Quote:

With all of this volume I'm concerned that you're recovery might not be where it should be in regards to the frequency.
Normally you hit each body part twice a week with about 48-72hours recovery.
Legs you only need to hit once a week because of the muscle size and neurological system recruitment. (You use a ton of energy and your body has to get a lot of your body involved to do legs so it needs longer to recovery so you can train optimally)

You're right it probably is too much with light weights.

(01-25-2017 05:03 AM)Akwesi Wrote:  

The volume seems excessive. You're doing more than 70 sets on Monday alone! How long does it take you to get through the workout? Far too long, I would think. Not sure anything beyond 25 sets in a workout, and an hour spent in the gym, is going to have any real marginal utility - especially as you are presumably lifting for health, fitness, and esthetics.

I agree, I'm trying to whittle my workout down to simple routine that hits all the muscles in the shortest amount of time. I want to be more efficient.

I mentioned it, it takes about 2 hours.

Absolutely for health, fitness, and aesthetics.

(01-25-2017 06:28 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

If I were to set out to torture myself, it might look a lot like this.

You've got a crazy routine, and crazy diet. What is your goal? If it is just to be a decently muscular, in shape, healthy dude, then you can throw out 90% of this, do something that doesn't suck, and free up a lot of time for more enriching pursuits (unless you really love doing cable flies).

That diet alone has you eating 8-9 times a day. Unless you want to be Mr. Banana Hammock USA, that is a thoroughly unenjoyable and futile way of spending a life.

More importantly, if your goal is to be anything other than a normal dude in decent shape, then that diet is failing you. You could get the same results on 3 balanced meals/day.

Let us know what your goals are, and we can probably get you doing something more suitable.

Goal is to get bigger without getting fat, then eventually cut. I know some fat will come while bulking.

Honestly, the eating isn't torture at all, I can eat this if I need to get big.

I had the bodybuilder trainer friend of mine put that meal plan together for me, and of course - I'm always open to new ideas.

(01-25-2017 08:06 AM)SegaSaturn1994 Wrote:  

If that works for you great, but I would use fewer splits and far less volume and exercises.

I don't know you so I'm not going to pretend to know how you train but I'd keep an eye on the following mistakes:

-warming up for too long; are many of your sets warm-ups where you slowly climb towards your max weight? While this is common procedure, there's a very real danger that you're using sloppy form when lifting lighter weights and are fatiguing your muscles with girly weights in anticipation of the weights that truly cause you to push yourself and activate the fast twitch fibers used in maximum grinding.
I personally move to max weights (for sets obviously, not singles) as soon as I can so as to conserve energy for the lifts that are supposed to simulate growth.

Honestly I don't really warm up, maybe 1 warm up for each dumbell or barbell workout. I never really warm up on machines except lats and legs.

I agree, you don't wanna burn your ass out on warm ups when that energy is meant for heavier sets.

Quote:

-overt reliance on machines: nothing inherently wrong with machines but if you switch gyms or machines, the build-up and the leverages may be slightly different and throw you off. There's also a very common problem of not being able to increase the weight incrementally enough when using machines. This is why I may increase weights as little as one pound per workout (there are microplates for this) even for bilateral lifts.

Correct, adding weight on machine is totally different from adding a 2.5LB plate on a bar.

Quote:

-not keeping a log: this should be self-explanatory but also the biggest mistake you can ever make. Track your weights in each exercise; the amount of sets is not that important.

THIS is every important, because I don't keep a log, but I usually know what weights I used previously, I need to find an App or just start writing into a book.

Quote:

-you're seemingly not doing any forearm exercises: start doing wrist curls for both extensors and flexors. If you're really ambitious, do lifts for pronators and supinators too

I've done these in the past, ironically cut them out because I didn't have time since I had so many Bi and Tri workouts.

Quote:

-training your biceps, trapezoids and the whole back during one single day would make sense; there's enormous overlap between these muscles. Just train your heavier pulling movements before training your biceps (and forearms). Just don't fall into the trap of dismissing muscle specific training completely.

-do you use weight for your dips? If not, you won't get any bigger or stronger.

It looks like I'll have to decide what's important on what days.

I don't do weighted dips, honestly my shoulders don't feel right doing it, this is a mixed topic, some say they are good, some say they are terrible for your shoulders. I'll do an ISO dip machine if need be.

Quote:

-your tricep days include tons of lat and even chest activation in addition to other irrelevant muscles. This is something you'll have to figure out for yourself; some exercises, like the pullover, work pressing and pulling muscles at the same time.
You may not always have the ideal split and some muscles may be at risk of being overly burdened but they'll adapt or they won't. See it for yourself but don't jump around from one split or schedule to another randomly; wait it out and see if you make progress.

Thanks for the advice I'll have to eventually make a solid routine, I'm hoping the forum can help me with this, which I'll address further below.

(01-25-2017 10:38 AM)MiscBrah Wrote:  

I'm with H1N1. A 1x week bodypart split is not going to be very effective for either strength or size. Please read this http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-...ains.html/

I'd suggest following some sort of full body 3x week or Lyle McDonald's Generic Bulking Routine which is a 4x week Upper/Lower split.

I believe 1x week body part split is what I'm doing right now correct ?

I looked at that website and graph schedule and had me a little confused on how to schedule.

Quote:

Its sad that it took me years to realize this simple truth. The best programs written by the best coaches are available for free online. SS, Madcow, Bill Starr, Greyskull, ICF, GBR, etc.

If you want to focus on gaining size, I would suggest you cut down to 10-12% bf and then focus on doing a slow bulk. You'll get much better nutrient partitioning if you're lean.

Could you point me in the right direction, I have a few more questions below, I'd appreciate if you comment on them.

(01-25-2017 10:47 AM)Eddie Winslow Wrote:  

Before I saw H1N1's response, I immediately asked the same question to myself about what your goals were.

Also, I don't know you personally, but I read enough of your posts to know that you are not including an important part of your diet: alcohol. If you're going out on drink dates 3-4+ times a week and having 2-3+ drinks each time, that is a shit ton of alcohol and has got to be killing your gym progress and your sleep cycle.

As mentioned, my goals are to put on more muscle and lean out.

You're absolutely right, alcohol is usually what happens when I'm on dates, surprisingly the last date I went on was sober.

Usually it's 3 days max drinking, but then there's Friday and Saturday. Friday is usually my bender night where I get wild.

It does fuck with my sleep cycle, if I'm banging, then I'm not going to bed till 2 and waking up at 7am to work, then gym right after.

Quote:

I'm 29 which I think is roughly your age. I've been lifting since I was a freshman in high school. I also drank like a frat boy and ate like shit from 18-28. No matter how often or hard I went in the gym, I had plateaus that lasted YEARS on my strength and size. It was very frustrating to say the least.

Only in the past 12 months have I significantly cut down my drinking, and only in the past 3 months have I been truly conscious about my calorie and food quality intake. My progress has been amazing lately and I feel more energetic than I did at 22.

Correct I'm around your age.

I haven't really drank beer in months, usually it's water+vodka+lemons. Lean and clean.

Quote:

Your workouts are very high volume, I imagine they take 75+ minutes** every day. The diet looks great nutritionally but it can't possibly be enjoyable or convenient; it takes real discipline to eat like that day in and day out. You are dedicating a LOT of your time and self-discipline (also a limited resource) to your physique; a lot of it is for naught because of your drinking. I would strongly consider cutting back on the dating or at least the reliance on alcohol dates. I know this is not fun and definitely easier said than done, but if you are serious enough about your physique to even make this post, it needs to happen.

EDIT**: Two hours!?? Dude..if you have a normal job and are really spending that much time in the gym, you can't have time or energy for much more than gym and dates. You are making your physique your life's work with this kind of dedication. If you're spending 10 HOURS a week lifting weights, you are committing a felony against yourself and sabotaging your life's work by drinking AT ALL. I would seriously think about your fitness and life goals. Please understand that is not an attack and meant to be constructive.

Correct high volume, the exact reason I posted it here, I wanted to remove the unnecessary workouts, no more bullshit.

The food I'm eating isn't bad at all actually, I'm so used to eating constantly, I meal prep sundays, and have my food ready for the week. I've got all my shakers and protein in my car, honestly food during the week - I just inhale it, unlike foods during the weekend - say a cheat meal.

I agree about cutting out alcohol I don't know if I could cut off banging and potential bangs - I sure could cut back a little on it.

Thanks for coming correct - in the end I want a bigger decent physique that I can maintain from there on out.

(01-25-2017 11:32 AM)Atlanta Man Wrote:  

How are you sleeping? Are you using super light weights for pushing past limits(example bench press limit 315lb, so add a 2.5lb plate x2 to push out 320)? Have you considered the Stairmaster for cardio to increace your conditioning?

Honestly, I don't sleep much, and you guys will probably think this is shit.

I usually go to bed around 12am and wake up around 7am.

For squats, yes I'll add small, but additional weights. I don't bench press (I'll explain later)

I actually did the stair master for quite some time, then turned to the stationary spin cycle.

[kaotic]

Goals

-Being around 165-170LB's I'm not happy with my core/stomach area at all.
-I want to get bigger but I want to avoid getting alot of fat at the same time.
-I'm a hard gaining ectomorph, so gaining won't be so simple.

Some Thoughts:

-It's obviously clear that I need to whittle down my workouts.
-I'm spending way too much time in the gym
-I need to stop drinking vodka alot and cut back on new dates.
-I need to sleep more.
-I need to LOG my workouts and get more detailed.

I've got my work cut out for me.


Some body issues I should mention:

-A few years ago I had some issues with my pectoralis minor, crossfit cause it, it's gone away for the most part, but sometimes can bug a bit.

-My right shoulder has had issues when doing barbell bench workouts, I don't do barbell bench press anymore, which is why I switched to dumbbell bench press. It just feels awkward and doesn't feel right - especially my right shoulder on the way and when pushing up.

-My L4 L5 disc in my Lumbar column, a few years ago I had an xray done and a Chiropractor told me that the disc is smaller than the rest of my discs. I notice when squatting or doing standard deadlifts especially, my lower back gets SUPER TIGHT almost feels like a knot being tied up.

-My right knee has had some issues with pain during squats, I've went wider stance to help this.



Things I've done:

-I've actually followed Jim Stoppani's Shortcut to Size

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/docs/201...e-book.pdf

-I've gotten guidance about my diet via a former competing bodybuilder and trainer.


What I'd appreciate help with:

Can someone help whittle down my workouts ?

Can someone help better understand 3 day split or whatever split workouts to try ?

Can someone even completely overhaul my workout routine ?

Is there any really good phone apps to track your workout logs ? Or should I go old school and write them in a gym book ?

Does anyone have any easy to follow programs that are adaptable ?

Do you guys think I'm eating right ?

Should I start cutting first then start gaining being more lean ?



I know your guys time is valuable and I appreciate any of that time that is invested in me.

I'm more than willing to compensate as well.

[Steelex]

Fucking ridiculous.

You only need a handful of sets per body part to grow, they just have to be hard, and you have to keep getting stronger at them.

You're overkilling it like a mofo.

[StackGsMan]

(01-25-2017 01:55 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

Goals

-Being around 165-170LB's I'm not happy with my core/stomach area at all.
-I want to get bigger but I want to avoid getting alot of fat at the same time.
-I'm a hard gaining ectomorph, so gaining won't be so simple.

Some Thoughts:

-It's obviously clear that I need to whittle down my workouts.
-I'm spending way too much time in the gym
-I need to stop drinking vodka alot and cut back on new dates.
-I need to sleep more.
-I need to LOG my workouts and get more detailed.

I've got my work cut out for me.


Some body issues I should mention:

-A few years ago I had some issues with my pectoralis minor, crossfit cause it, it's gone away for the most part, but sometimes can bug a bit.

-My right shoulder has had issues when doing barbell bench workouts, I don't do barbell bench press anymore, which is why I switched to dumbbell bench press. It just feels awkward and doesn't feel right - especially my right shoulder on the way and when pushing up.

-My L4 L5 disc in my Lumbar column, a few years ago I had an xray done and a Chiropractor told me that the disc is smaller than the rest of my discs. I notice when squatting or doing standard deadlifts especially, my lower back gets SUPER TIGHT almost feels like a knot being tied up.

-My right knee has had some issues with pain during squats, I've went wider stance to help this.



Things I've done:

-I've actually followed Jim Stoppani's Shortcut to Size

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/docs/201...e-book.pdf

-I've gotten guidance about my diet via a former competing bodybuilder and trainer.


What I'd appreciate help with:

Can someone help whittle down my workouts ?

Can someone help better understand 3 day split or whatever split workouts to try ?

Can someone even completely overhaul my workout routine ?

Is there any really good phone apps to track your workout logs ? Or should I go old school and write them in a gym book ?

Does anyone have any easy to follow programs that are adaptable ?

Do you guys think I'm eating right ?

Should I start cutting first then start gaining being more lean ?



I know your guys time is valuable and I appreciate any of that time that is invested in me.

I'm more than willing to compensate as well.

I would stick to no more than 16 sets a day. The thing about gaining muscle and size is that it has very little to do with how much time or exercises you do in the gym. Very simply stated the way you gain muscle is by having moved more weight than you previously did. Now that doesn't mean you only gain by lifting heavy, rather it means you have to do something MORE than before in order to grow. This could be moving MORE weight, or it could mean doing more reps at the same weight.

With the volume you have posted that you do you would have to be on steroids to be able to go hard through that whole workout. You should be aiming for a workout that is about 45 minutes not including a warm up/cool down/stretching. In that time period you should work as hard as possible to move as much weight as you physically can.

This is a sample routine I would recommend:

Monday- Chest
4 sets flat dumbbell press
4 sets incline dumbbell press
4 sets decline dumbbell press
4 sets flys

Tuesday- Legs
4 sets squats
4 sets hamstring curls
4 sets leg press (I know this is redundant with squats, but your legs are where you can add more volume than usual)
4 sets calf raises

Thursday- Back
8 sets of pull ups
4 sets of deadlifts
4 sets of bent over rows

Friday- Shoulders
4 sets of shoulder press (standing)
4 sets of lateral raises to the side
4 sets of raises to the front
4 sets of raises to the back (for your rear delts)

Saturday- Arms
4 sets of dips
4 sets of bicep curls
4 sets of skull crushers
4 sets of either hammer curls or preacher curls


The routine is more than enough to get you bigger, but keep in mind the key is to consistently move more weight with time. Let me know what you think and maybe we can tweak out a better routine for you.

[kaotic]

(01-25-2017 02:13 PM)Steelex Wrote:  

Fucking ridiculous.

You only need a handful of sets per body part to grow, they just have to be hard, and you have to keep getting stronger at them.

You're overkilling it like a mofo.

Yeah you're right, I knew that coming into here.

I know you're a professional at this, what do you think is a good workout plan ? The ones suggested ? Something more simplified ?

How many sets per workout do you think is good ? How do you split your muscle groups ?

(01-25-2017 02:15 PM)StackGsMan Wrote:  

I would stick to no more than 16 sets a day. The thing about gaining muscle and size is that it has very little to do with how much time or exercises you do in the gym. Very simply stated the way you gain muscle is by having moved more weight than you previously did. Now that doesn't mean you only gain by lifting heavy, rather it means you have to do something MORE than before in order to grow. This could be moving MORE weight, or it could mean doing more reps at the same weight.

With the volume you have posted that you do you would have to be on steroids to be able to go hard through that whole workout. You should be aiming for a workout that is about 45 minutes not including a warm up/cool down/stretching. In that time period you should work as hard as possible to move as much weight as you physically can.

-workout snip-

The routine is more than enough to get you bigger, but keep in mind the key is to consistently move more weight with time. Let me know what you think and maybe we can tweak out a better routine for you.

Yeah I understand moving more and more weight is obviously going to increase weight, or increase reps or a mix both, I do get that.

Honestly, I do feel burned out when doing so many sets and reps.

I noticed in your workout you didn't mention reps, do you recommend 6-8 or pyramid style set reps ?

Once I get this thread going on ideas, I'd like to incorporate a bit of everyone's ideas and see what's best for me.

[H1N1]

(01-25-2017 01:55 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

Goals

-Being around 165-170LB's I'm not happy with my core/stomach area at all.
-I want to get bigger but I want to avoid getting alot of fat at the same time.
-I'm a hard gaining ectomorph, so gaining won't be so simple.

Some Thoughts:

-It's obviously clear that I need to whittle down my workouts.
-I'm spending way too much time in the gym
-I need to stop drinking vodka alot and cut back on new dates.
-I need to sleep more.
-I need to LOG my workouts and get more detailed.

I've got my work cut out for me.


Some body issues I should mention:

-A few years ago I had some issues with my pectoralis minor, crossfit cause it, it's gone away for the most part, but sometimes can bug a bit.

-My right shoulder has had issues when doing barbell bench workouts, I don't do barbell bench press anymore, which is why I switched to dumbbell bench press. It just feels awkward and doesn't feel right - especially my right shoulder on the way and when pushing up.

-My L4 L5 disc in my Lumbar column, a few years ago I had an xray done and a Chiropractor told me that the disc is smaller than the rest of my discs. I notice when squatting or doing standard deadlifts especially, my lower back gets SUPER TIGHT almost feels like a knot being tied up.

-My right knee has had some issues with pain during squats, I've went wider stance to help this.



Things I've done:

-I've actually followed Jim Stoppani's Shortcut to Size

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/docs/201...e-book.pdf

-I've gotten guidance about my diet via a former competing bodybuilder and trainer.


What I'd appreciate help with:

Can someone help whittle down my workouts ?

Can someone help better understand 3 day split or whatever split workouts to try ?

Can someone even completely overhaul my workout routine ?

Is there any really good phone apps to track your workout logs ? Or should I go old school and write them in a gym book ?

Does anyone have any easy to follow programs that are adaptable ?

Do you guys think I'm eating right ?

Should I start cutting first then start gaining being more lean ?



I know your guys time is valuable and I appreciate any of that time that is invested in me.

I'm more than willing to compensate as well.

Steelex is on point.

The important thing, particularly as a natural trainee, is to pick a handful of exercises and get stronger at them. *any* good program will have you doing this. GZCL is good, Doggcrap is good, I don't much like SS/SL as they are too leg focused for an ordinary dude trying to get strong and build a rounded physique.

Really though, pick a handful of exercises and just get stronger on them. Have 3 or 4 that you use to measure progress (eg. Squat, Dead, OHP, Chins/Rows). If these are moving up, you're making progress, that's the end of it. I like to work up to a top set, or do doggcrap style rest-pause training. 10-15 total heavy reps (85% of your TM or heavier)

Then have another 3-4 major support lifts (eg. Front squats/hack squats/split squats, SLDL/Good mornings/Rack pulls, close grip bench/pushpress, and chins/rows (whichever isn't a prime movement). You ideally want these to move too, but you don't sweat it if progress comes in fits and starts, or if you stall on these, so long as your main lifts are moving. These are lifts you should look to add reps to before adding weight. 20-30 total reps (75%+)

Then pick 4-5 more lifts that work some smaller muscles, shoot for a real pump in 2-3 sets, and focus on just working the muscle with these, weight is least important here. (Curls, tricep work, rear delts, lunges, etc etc). 30-50+ reps

Do this 3-4 times/week (I like 1 day on, 1 day off)

Eat 3 rounded meals per day - meat/animal protein, veg, some complex carbs.

You will get stronger and look better.

[Atlanta Man]

^^^to StackGsMans post- I was going to post a workout but this is as good as I was going to post. This is actually very good. I would like to add you need to get some more sleep and consider non alcoholic beers (pour it in a glass so your date does not think you are weird) or club soda with a lime when you are out trying to get laid. Save your heavy meals until after your workout, and again please get at least 1 more hour of sleep a night.

[Steelex]

Kaotic PM me.

[StackGsMan]

(01-25-2017 02:37 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

(01-25-2017 02:13 PM)Steelex Wrote:  

Fucking ridiculous.

You only need a handful of sets per body part to grow, they just have to be hard, and you have to keep getting stronger at them.

You're overkilling it like a mofo.

Yeah you're right, I knew that coming into here.

I know you're a professional at this, what do you think is a good workout plan ? The ones suggested ? Something more simplified ?

How many sets per workout do you think is good ? How do you split your muscle groups ?

(01-25-2017 02:15 PM)StackGsMan Wrote:  

I would stick to no more than 16 sets a day. The thing about gaining muscle and size is that it has very little to do with how much time or exercises you do in the gym. Very simply stated the way you gain muscle is by having moved more weight than you previously did. Now that doesn't mean you only gain by lifting heavy, rather it means you have to do something MORE than before in order to grow. This could be moving MORE weight, or it could mean doing more reps at the same weight.

With the volume you have posted that you do you would have to be on steroids to be able to go hard through that whole workout. You should be aiming for a workout that is about 45 minutes not including a warm up/cool down/stretching. In that time period you should work as hard as possible to move as much weight as you physically can.

-workout snip-

The routine is more than enough to get you bigger, but keep in mind the key is to consistently move more weight with time. Let me know what you think and maybe we can tweak out a better routine for you.

Yeah I understand moving more and more weight is obviously going to increase weight, or increase reps or a mix both, I do get that.

Honestly, I do feel burned out when doing so many sets and reps.

I noticed in your workout you didn't mention reps, do you recommend 6-8 or pyramid style set reps ?

Once I get this thread going on ideas, I'd like to incorporate a bit of everyone's ideas and see what's best for me.

The exact number of reps you do should be played by ear. You generally want to stick with less than 12 reps at an absolute maximum, and you probably want to do a weight where you struggle to finish 8 reps.

That being said, IMO the exact number of reps should vary week to week. Let me give you an example that will be particularly relevant to someone like you or me that prefer to do dumbbell presses for chest as opposed to barbell work.

Lets say on your chest day you start out one week with doing 90 lbs for each dumbbell on the flat bench. I forgot to mention IMO you should do the same weight throughout your 4 sets of that exercise UNLESS the weight is too heavy and makes you compromise form or it is too light and you are doing endless reps.

Now, you do your first set and hit 10 reps at failure. Then 8, then 6, then 5. That is generally what all my exercises look like, with a rep or two different here or there. Now with something like a dumbbell chest press you can't manipulate the weight by a tiny amount like you can with a barbell because at the very least you have to increase the weight by 5 lbs in each hand. My recommendation would be that for the next week or two or three keep the same weight and just focus on pumping out more reps. You might end up doing 15 reps at that weight a few weeks later and that is above the number of reps you should be going for, but it is more than alright because you are both doing more work (causing muscles to work harder) and at the same time getting slowly prepared to move up in weight.

It is for that reason that I say the exact number of reps doesn't matter per se, but yes you should be aiming to be near the 6-8 rep range for many of your sets.

[kavi]

From my experience:

I agree way too much volume here. Focus on freeweight coumpound exercises, these are the bread and butter of putting on muscle. Also, I am not sure why you are only doing 6-8 reps, I think you should mix it up a bit more. For instance

Set 1: Higher Weight Lower reps
Set 4: Lower weight 15-20 reps Burnout.


Monday (Legs, Chest, Shoulders, Tri)

Squats
Leg Press

Barbell Chest Press (Why are you currently not doing barbells as they are the best chest exercise)
Barbell Incline Chest Press
Some amount of dumbell presses incline and flat if you want.

Barbell Shoulder press (Your shoulders should already be fatigued from the above, so it is better to work on them now)
Dumbell latereral shoulder raise (or another light shoulder exercise)

Two Tricep excercises (They should be worked already from the Chest and Shoulder exercises so shouldnt need to spend much more time on them)

Traps


Tuesday (Back, Biceps)

Deadlift

Pull ups
Bent over rows
Pull downs
Seated rows (mix up grips for these exercises, my experience says narrow grip takes priority)

Biceps (Should already be fatigued due to above)


Monday Pushing Exercises
Tuesday Pulling Exercises
Wednesday Rest
Thursday Pushing Exercises
Friday Pulling Exercises

You just have a two day split but it may be that 2x Squats and 2x Deadlifts are too much for one week, especially given that deadlifts also require use the leg muscles. What you can do is do each one just once a week and use the time for other (isolation) exercises (eg flys, traps, calves)

Other than that, you should definitely aim to hit each body part twice a week.


I think of exercises falling into the below grouping

Group1 - Maximum Impact, Maximum weight. These exercises will affect your hormonal profile, they are highly taxing to the system, but will result in massive muscle, strength and temperament gains. They should be performed first in the workout because you do not want to be tired, and you will set yourself up to have a higher intensity work out. It is easy to overdo it with these however, so be wary of that.

Squats
Deadlifts


Group 2 - Medium impact Exercises

Bench Press (inc Incline and dumbell press)
Bent Over Rows (inc seated rows and single arm rows)
Leg Press (inc leg extension and curl)


Group 3- Low intensity, low weight, mostly isolation exercise. Due to the nature of these exercises they have minimal impact on the body but can be used to take body parts to fatigue after compound exercises if they need the extra work. These are not very taxing on the body so you will normally have enough energy at the end of a workout to do a few.

Shoulder Press
Shoulder Raises
Bicep Curls
Tricep Extention
Calf work
Traps
Flys
etc


As you can see there are few Group1 exercises, more Group2 ones and even more Group3 ones. This is because we are going from highly compound exercises to less compound exercises and then to isolation work.

Your workouts should be focused on hitting group1 and group2 exercises with high intensity, as this is where most of your gains will come from. The reason you are spending so much time in the gym is because you are spending too much time on isolation exercises, and these are generally not very taxing.

Think about how much weight you can lift while doing deadlifts vs tricep curls.

[General Stalin]

Tons of great info in this thread from people that know.more than me. My comments are:

Less supplement intake.

Build a simpler program with less volume and workouts. You don't need to be hitting half a dozen different accessory movements.

[SamuelBRoberts]

Kaotic-

Are you still having trouble sleeping?
I know I recommended melatonin to you one time. That stuff is amazing and will knock you out like a rock. Just take 1.5mg or 3mg at 7:00 or 8:00 PM and you'll probably sleep just fine.