[PainPositive]

I want to use this thread as a resource for guys who are going through a divorce. So many dudes are completely oblivious to the fact that the woman has all the power and the state is on her side. We know all the horror stories but many men see them as the exception and not the rule.

Example: My very close friend has been married since 09. He got married right before we deployed to Afghanistan. His wife has been a good women and they have two kids but just don't get along. They decided to separate and everything is seemingly going well because they both want a divorce. I warned him of the consequences if she becomes unhappy and to be on his best behavior.

Today he tells me he got pissed and smashed his guitar and some other possessions in their room. She came back home to find the destruction and wasn't happy but they "talked it out". I warned him that during divorce hearings this incident could cost him visitation rights and is grounds for a restraining order in most states. She only needs to mention this to her lawyer and he's hurting.

He immediately got defensive and said "That won't happen" and "he has to go" and hung up. I sent him a message and told him I was being a good friend and he thanked me. I know he's go a lot on his plate mentally now but I still feel I have a responsibility to help him, or at least to share the knowledge we all know here so he can help himself. Since so many marriages end in divorce I think this thread will be useful to point men in the right direction

Links, experiences, and advice are all welcome.

What advice would you give to a friend going through a divorce in America?

[Merenguero]

I'll answer your question with a question. Is he seeking custody? What he did as far as smashing his possessions, it would not be grounds for a Protective Order where I am, but he needs to get his emotions under control. If he is fighting custody, behavior like that could be used to argue that he is unfit.

[PainPositive]

He is not at the moment. Right now things are very civil.

[Merenguero]

What they need to do, especially since things are civil, is each consult with an attorney (by law, it can't be the same one for both people) and work out a full written agreement regarding custody, visitation, child support, his military pension, and any other property each one has. The agreement can even specify a date on which they agree to separate. After that is done, one of them can file for divorce as soon as the separation runs, if the state in which they live even has a required separation period. That should take care of everything in the most effective and least expensive manner, with everything being done correctly.

[HankMoody]

I'm an attorney who now does divorce. It started as a side practice to help out my real estate clients, and has sort of grown into something I enjoy doing, because 80% of it involves dispensing red pill advice, 20% legal advice. My advice would be this...

1. Do not get married. If you want to live with someone, do it. If you want to have kids, do it. You do not need to get married to do these things. There is no need to take on a horrible one sided contract that at the end of the day could utterly wreck your life. The law is heavily slated against men. You know that pension you worked hard for? Yep, that could be hers. Marriage is an outdated establishment which has been destroyed by third wave feminism.

2. If you do get married, keep all of your finances separate. Maintain two bank accounts. If there is a joint account, contribute equally and make it for household expenses. This way, if you divorce, it's not as messy.

3. If you do split up, keep it amicable. Everyone wants to hire a big badass divorce attorney who will file lots of petitions and ruin the other one. The only one who wins from that is the divorce lawyer. Most of your issues are easy to resolve if you're reasonable, and don't approach everything from an emotional standpoint. You take your shit, she takes her shit, figure out a reasonable custody arrangement, and move on with your life.

4. Don't call me gay for saying this, but there is an Ani Difranco lyric that I like. "Maybe we are both good people who have done some bad things." You're both in the wrong. She cheated, you cheated, you got bored, he got bored, you grew apart, whatever. It's time to move on with your life in a way that makes sense, not decide who is right and who is wrong.

5. Using your children as a weapon is pathetic and disgusting. If both parents want to be in a child's life, that's a good thing. Don't try and exclude your child from your former spouse's life. Absant abuse, that's unfair to the child.

Men, for the love of God, do not attempt a marriage without red pill knowledge. It takes more game to maintain a relationship than to start one. More often than not, I find myself saying "Do you know why she walks all over you like that? Because you let her."

Finally, do not even consider marriage until you're in your mid-30s, or preferably later. Right now at 33 I am banging girls I never dreamed possible. At the same time, girls my own age are starting to quickly hit the wall. What is the hurry to lock a girl down, especially before you've hit your own prime?

[el mechanico]

Why does everyone say the woman has all the power? They don't they're just quick to strike and follow thru.

[Merenguero]

(10-27-2015 05:37 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Why does everyone say the woman has all the power? They don't they're just quick to strike and follow thru.

Women initiate most divorces. Everyone has all the power when the other side sits back and does nothing.

[PainPositive]

Mech, Thanks for the response. I believe women have all the power because in most cases that seem to because of outcome. Many of my friends have had to to visit their own children while under supervision of a state employee because the wife "felt unsafe" or "threatened". For the most part I think this is not the norm but is certainly common especially in NYS.

My ex's father was smart and struck quickly but still had to give 2 of 3 homes, all furniture, cars, and 5 years alimony of $10,000 to the wife who now fucks 22 year old wanna be gangsters in his house. He hid a bunch of money and fought like hell but she still took him for about 65% of his net worth.

Celebrity men get it pretty bad too.
thread-12874.html

[Uzisuicide]

I would recommend having an off the record savings or ivestment that is strictly yours and known only to you. I had copious amounts of silver bullion and coins that paid the bills and my attorney during my divorce. It got me through.

[AneroidOcean]

(10-27-2015 05:37 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Why does everyone say the woman has all the power? They don't they're just quick to strike and follow thru.

If I'm understanding correctly, women are awarded child custody in over 4 out of 5 cases.

Source - 2011 Census

With child custody in most cases comes child support. Child support that can be spent nearly entirely elsewhere (you don't have to prove it's used to support your kids). It's also VERY tough to get child support modified if for example you lose your job.

Women certainly don't have all the power, but they are treated better by the courts in basically all divisions of the court systems. Civil, divorce, and especially criminal. There's a significant imbalance in power.

[doc holliday]

I'm in the midst of a divorce which has turned a bit messy but I will say that I have managed to gain the upper hand on my soon to be ex by following a lot of the good advice given above.

I can elaborate more as this thread progresses but I can say that the two most important things that I've done so far is that

1.I've kept my emotions in check

2. I told my wife flat out after she filed that I won't leave the house until the divorce is done. In my mind this is the biggest mistake most men make when they get served. If your name is on the title or the lease if you rent, you have no business leaving the marital home.

[HankMoody]

(10-27-2015 06:18 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  

I'm in the midst of a divorce which has turned a bit messy but I will say that I have managed to gain the upper hand on my soon to be ex by following a lot of the good advice given above.

I can elaborate more as this thread progresses but I can say that the two most important things that I've done so far is that

1.I've kept my emotions in check

2. I told my wife flat out after she filed that I won't leave the house until the divorce is done. In my mind this is the biggest mistake most men make when they get served. If your name is on the title or the lease if you rent, you have no business leaving the marital home.

#2 is a toughie.

I've seen many instances where the woman fabricates instances of violence, and then gets the man forcibly removed from the home.

"He grabbed my throat, threatened to kill me, and then said he would burn the place down. I'm in fear for my life, and our child's life."

God help you if you get a bad judge. If your wife is evil, willing to perjure herself, and willing to fabricate evidence bad things can happen.

[Merenguero]

(10-27-2015 06:30 PM)HankMoody Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 06:18 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  

I'm in the midst of a divorce which has turned a bit messy but I will say that I have managed to gain the upper hand on my soon to be ex by following a lot of the good advice given above.

I can elaborate more as this thread progresses but I can say that the two most important things that I've done so far is that

1.I've kept my emotions in check

2. I told my wife flat out after she filed that I won't leave the house until the divorce is done. In my mind this is the biggest mistake most men make when they get served. If your name is on the title or the lease if you rent, you have no business leaving the marital home.

#2 is a toughie.

I've seen many instances where the woman fabricates instances of violence, and then gets the man forcibly removed from the home.

"He grabbed my throat, threatened to kill me, and then said he would burn the place down. I'm in fear for my life, and our child's life."

God help you if you get a bad judge. If your wife is evil, willing to perjure herself, and willing to fabricate evidence bad things can happen.

I've posted about this before. When a guy refuses to leave the home, and continues to live with his wife when it is obvious the marriage is over, pretty much every time the wife files for a Protective Order in order to get the husband ordered to leave the house. What the legislature intended to serve as a shield then becomes a sword. Again, enter into a written agreement. It will save you tons of money in attorney's fees and even more headaches.

[doc holliday]

Hank, I do agree that staying in the marital home can be fraught with disaster so I guess I should say that it is case specific. In my case, my children are teenagers with whom I have a very tight relationship with so that probably prevented my soon to be ex from trying that extreme.

Even in my case though, it hasn't been easy living at home but I will say that I wouldn't be where I'm at in my divorce if I had left. Hank, what do you advise your male clients to do when they get served?

[doc holliday]

Merenguero, I was under the impression that it's quite difficult to remove a spouse from the home absent any domestic violence charges. I know my wife threatened to go to court over the issue but her lawyer never followed through on it.

[Merenguero]

(10-27-2015 06:46 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  

Merenguero, I was under the impression that it's quite difficult to remove a spouse from the home absent any domestic violence charges. I know my wife threatened to go to court over the issue but her lawyer never followed through on it.

It is. It becomes a grey area when the house is only titled in one of the spouse's names. If the spouse whose name is on the title changes the locks, the police will usually allow the other spouse to break in. Also, if the spouse who is on the title tries to evict the other one, as far as I've seen, judges will be reluctant to evict the other spouse. Let me say it this way, I've never seen it happen. A Protective Order or the filing of a criminal charge such as assault is usually the only way. What happens with the criminal charge is that there is usually a condition of the Defendant's bond that he has to stay away from the alleged victim while the case is pending. That has the effect of keeping that person from entering the home.

[HankMoody]

(10-27-2015 06:40 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  

Hank, I do agree that staying in the marital home can be fraught with disaster so I guess I should say that it is case specific. In my case, my children are teenagers with whom I have a very tight relationship with so that probably prevented my soon to be ex from trying that extreme.

Even in my case though, it hasn't been easy living at home but I will say that I wouldn't be where I'm at in my divorce if I had left. Hank, what do you advise your male clients to do when they get served?

Generally as a matter of course, it's to stay in the martial home so you don't lose rights to it.

However, keep in mind that the narrative is always that you "abandoned the martial residence". The law presumes you're a deadbeat who up and left for no good reason, probably because you want to bang young girls and not deal with having kids.

Of course, they always omit the fact that you left because you moved the tuna fish so your wife called the cops and filed for a restraining order, claiming you threw it at her and then tried to burn the place down. When in reality, you simply moved something and she turned it into a shitstorm resulting in the cops being called, even though you did nothing wrong of violent. Nevertheless, you should pay the mortgage, utility bills, and everything else while the court sorts it out. Oh, and did I mention Dave is coming over tonight (the guy with the tattoos who she's "just friends with"), so could you, uh, be somewhere else?

It really depends on how evil and crafty your wife is. If she's willing to fabricate domestic violence incidents, just stay somewhere else while asserting your rights to the property. Family law favors women, and assumes you just left her to shirk parental responsibility and bang younger girls.

The key is to make sure they could never prove you abandoned the family, while at the same time making sure you don't get nailed for fake domestic violence charges.

It's all case specific.

Add: what usually happens is a woman files for a protective order. Dude leaves the house so they can "cool off". (she created the problem in the first place). Female tells the court that dude "abandoned the martial residence, and it's in the best interest of the child to maintain the current status quo." Court finds that there was a lot of volatility in the marriage, so dude is out. He has to continue to pay bills for the house because the child is living there.

Good old Hank the Spank Tank sips scotch in his big house, and enjoys the quiet.

[doc holliday]

Yes, that was my understanding of the law and how judges generally rule in terms of evicting someone who's name is on the title which is most likely why her lawyer never pursued it

For me, staying worked out very well as its allowed me to see my kids everyday for the last year and a bit. Also, just my presence everyday has wreaked hell on her psychologically which has forced into many mistakes. Great thread, like el mech said you need to fight back hard even if everything seems stacked against you.

[doc holliday]

The abandonment issue is one of the reasons I stayed. Your description as to how it can go if you leave is dead on. Hence the importance of keeping your emotions in check. And soon enough,I'll be sipping whiskey in peace and quiet

[Merenguero]

(10-27-2015 06:59 PM)HankMoody Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 06:40 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  

Hank, I do agree that staying in the marital home can be fraught with disaster so I guess I should say that it is case specific. In my case, my children are teenagers with whom I have a very tight relationship with so that probably prevented my soon to be ex from trying that extreme.

Even in my case though, it hasn't been easy living at home but I will say that I wouldn't be where I'm at in my divorce if I had left. Hank, what do you advise your male clients to do when they get served?

Generally as a matter of course, it's to stay in the martial home so you don't lose rights to it.

However, keep in mind that the narrative is always that you "abandoned the martial residence". The law presumes you're a deadbeat who up and left for no good reason, probably because you want to bang young girls and not deal with having kids.

Of course, they always omit the fact that you left because you moved the tuna fish so your wife called the cops and filed for a restraining order, claiming you threw it at her and then tried to burn the place down. When in reality, you simply moved something and she turned it into a shitstorm resulting in the cops being called, even though you did nothing wrong of violent. Nevertheless, you should pay the mortgage, utility bills, and everything else while the court sorts it out. Oh, and did I mention Dave is coming over tonight (the guy with the tattoos who she's "just friends with"), so could you, uh, be somewhere else?

It really depends on how evil and crafty your wife is. If she's willing to fabricate domestic violence incidents, just stay somewhere else while asserting your rights to the property. Family law favors women, and assumes you just left her to shirk parental responsibility and bang younger girls.

The key is to make sure they could never prove you abandoned the family, while at the same time making sure you don't get nailed for fake domestic violence charges.

It's all case specific.

You're showing some real life experience in your posts and it's very clear to me that you aren't some academic who has never seen the inside of a courtroom before (the world is crawling with those types), but I would like to add something here. If you are seeking custody of your children, one of the worst things you can do is leave the marital home without your kids. It can really screw you. If you have to leave, bring the children with you. I'll be the first to say that leaving with the kids is not the best possible scenario, but it is better than abandoning them and better than doing nothing so that your wife can leave with them. Aside from that, I think that abandonment as far as the marriage itself is a very outdated concept. Divorces in most states require a separation. Someone must initiate the separation. Someone must leave at some point. Where I am, I think abandonment has been repealed and out of at least a thousand divorces over the years, I can't ever remember one being granted for abandonment. I can even remember a judge taking abandonment into consideration. If the other side did argue abandonment, you could say that you left with just cause. Also, if you leave the home, your wife stays, and she keeps paying the mortgage, she may be entitled to contribution at the time of the divorce. A judge may or may not order that, but some people leave, stop paying the mortgage, then are surprised that they get hit for thousands in contribution at the time of the divorce. Again, enter into an agreement.

[HankMoody]

(10-27-2015 07:09 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 06:59 PM)HankMoody Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 06:40 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  

Hank, I do agree that staying in the marital home can be fraught with disaster so I guess I should say that it is case specific. In my case, my children are teenagers with whom I have a very tight relationship with so that probably prevented my soon to be ex from trying that extreme.

Even in my case though, it hasn't been easy living at home but I will say that I wouldn't be where I'm at in my divorce if I had left. Hank, what do you advise your male clients to do when they get served?

Generally as a matter of course, it's to stay in the martial home so you don't lose rights to it.

However, keep in mind that the narrative is always that you "abandoned the martial residence". The law presumes you're a deadbeat who up and left for no good reason, probably because you want to bang young girls and not deal with having kids.

Of course, they always omit the fact that you left because you moved the tuna fish so your wife called the cops and filed for a restraining order, claiming you threw it at her and then tried to burn the place down. When in reality, you simply moved something and she turned it into a shitstorm resulting in the cops being called, even though you did nothing wrong of violent. Nevertheless, you should pay the mortgage, utility bills, and everything else while the court sorts it out. Oh, and did I mention Dave is coming over tonight (the guy with the tattoos who she's "just friends with"), so could you, uh, be somewhere else?

It really depends on how evil and crafty your wife is. If she's willing to fabricate domestic violence incidents, just stay somewhere else while asserting your rights to the property. Family law favors women, and assumes you just left her to shirk parental responsibility and bang younger girls.

The key is to make sure they could never prove you abandoned the family, while at the same time making sure you don't get nailed for fake domestic violence charges.

It's all case specific.

You're showing some real life experience in your posts and it's very clear to me that you aren't some academic who has never seen the inside of a courtroom before (the world is crawling with those types), but I would like to add something here. If you are seeking custody of your children, one of the worst things you can do is leave the marital home without your kids. It can really screw you. If you have to leave, bring the children with you. I'll be the first to say that leaving with the kids is not the best possible scenario, but it is better than abandoning them and better than doing nothing so that your wife can leave with them. Aside from that, I think that abandonment as far as the marriage itself is a very outdated concept. Divorces in most states require a separation. Someone must initiate the separation. Someone must leave at some point. Where I am, I think abandonment has been repealed and out of at least a thousand divorces over the years, I can't every remember one being granted for abandonment. I can even remember a judge taking abandonment into consideration. If the other side did argue abandonment, you could say that you left with just cause. Also, if you leave the home, your wife stays, and she keeps paying the mortgage, she may be entitled to contribution at the time of the divorce. A judge may or may not order that, but some people leave, stop paying the mortgage, then are surprised that they get hit for thousands in contribution at the time of the divorce. Again, enter into an agreement.

I generally agree with that. That said, the wife is always going to try and set the narrative that the man abandoned the marriage and now she's stuck footing the bills and watching the kids. Even if it's contrary to the evidence and truth.

The pragmatic issue from a male perspective is you might not want 100% custody. You'll be dating, hanging out, and meeting chicks. Do you really want to watch a two year old on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday while your ex-wife is out banging a bunch of dudes? Maybe you do, maybe you don't. It depends.

The first question I ask in a divorce case is "What are you trying to accomplish?" Full custody? To be a sperm doner? To pay as little as possible? To be single again and a playboy asshole like your lawyer? To get back together?

Once we figure that out, an agreement is always the best option.

[Merenguero]

^^^
I ask that "What are you trying to accomplish"? question too and I would say at least half the time, the person can't give me a decent answer.

[doc holliday]

So if a guy is served with divorce papers, his immediate choice is to either decide to stay indefinitely as I have or to try and get at least a temporary arrangement in place with the ex in terms of custody, parenting schedule and financial arrangement before moving out?

[Merenguero]

(10-27-2015 07:33 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  

So if a guy is served with divorce papers, his immediate choice is to either decide to stay indefinitely as I have or to try and get at least a temporary arrangement in place with the ex in terms of custody, parenting schedule and financial arrangement before moving out?

No. You can, preferably through a lawyer, work out a complete permanent agreement and separate peacefully and amicably. If not, you are in for a long ride and always run the risk of getting hit with a Protective Order. I'm not trying to scare you. I've seen it too many times. Some people have too much pride to work things out and get screwed.

[HankMoody]

(10-27-2015 07:33 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  

So if a guy is served with divorce papers, his immediate choice is to either decide to stay indefinitely as I have or to try and get at least a temporary arrangement in place with the ex in terms of custody, parenting schedule and financial arrangement before moving out?

Depends on the relationship.

This sounds so lawyerly, but it depends on the case, levels of craziness, willingness to fabricate evidence, etc.

Again, why my advice is to never get married.