[H1N1]

(07-12-2015 04:57 PM)Neo Wrote:  

I was raised Catholic and researched this stuff to see the other side of the spectrum. It is interesting to read, as I knew some kids in high school who were into it.

I think it's a just a different way to view the complex parts of our brain. After reading up on it, I've concluded it's a complex fantasy.

I believe there are ways we can unlock more potential from ourselves and our brains, but I don't think it's found here. And these people who believe that they can produce any sort of psi phenomenon that go the laws of physics are just gullible and misguided.

I think, from my understanding, that Crowley et al. do not assert any such thing - their underlying premise is that magick has the potential to alter something only in so far as it's make up allows for it to be altered - for example you could not turn gold into lead.

[scorpion]

(07-12-2015 04:52 PM)Chick Magnet Wrote:  

Moto,

There are umpteen "occult" traditions that have no mention of Satan or Lucifer (or any of the 2 billion names the Bible calls him).

This is not really true. Pretty much every single occult system is fundamentally Satanic in their core teachings, which are always about achieving enlightenment, spiritual awakening or contact with some kind of divine essence. This is literally the core teaching of every occult system I've ever studied. Satanic systems usually don't explicitly mention Satan, and if they even do it isn't until the highest level (most secret) teachings. They simply talk about enlightenment and mankind's ability to redeem himself through secret knowledge.

(07-12-2015 04:52 PM)Chick Magnet Wrote:  

And for the ones that do...

So what? Even if Satan exists...

Lets play devil's advocate for a second. Who's to say that the Bible hasn't unfairly villainized him?!

Maybe God (ya know the guy who wiped out mankind in the flood) is the bad guy. And Satan is truly the angel of light. Something to think about...

Something to think about...

[H1N1]

(07-12-2015 05:19 PM)scorpion Wrote:  



Something to think about...

You don't think this is slightly ironic given you appear from your posts to be religious, and presumably believe in God?

[scorpion]

(07-12-2015 05:21 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

You don't think this is slightly ironic given you appear from your posts to be religious, and presumably believe in God?

I was not drawing parallels between the existence of God and Santa Claus. I was mocking the faux-profundity of his post, which sounds like something a 16 year old stoner would come up with and try to pass off as an amazing insight.

"But what if like....what if like...Satan is the GOOD GUY, man!"

[Moto]

(07-12-2015 04:52 PM)Chick Magnet Wrote:  

Moto,

So what? Even if Satan exists...

Lets play devil's advocate for a second. Who's to say that the Bible hasn't unfairly villainized him?!

Maybe God (ya know the guy who wiped out mankind in the flood) is the bad guy. And Satan is truly the angel of light. Something to think about...

That is the Gnostic school of thought- the Old Testament God is evil but Jesus is still the Savior through the secret teachings (some in the Canonical Bible, some not) and opportunity for Gnosis (knowledge) that he provides.

I've been there. Still struggle with some Old Testament stuff, for sure. But read the Book of Ecclesiastes. No need to read it as a Christian or Jew, truly gold stuff in there. And red pill I'd say. You may be closer to being a Christian than you think- closer I'd say than the "Christian" who mindless accepts and doesn't think anything one way or another of the admittedly messed up stuff in some parts of the OT. I'm of the opinion that one need not be a scripture scholar, especially of the OT, to be a Catholic. Just a gospel is enough. That's how Latin America became Catholic. The ritual and few key beliefs are far more important.

[Chick Magnet]

(07-12-2015 05:19 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(07-12-2015 04:52 PM)Chick Magnet Wrote:  

Moto,

There are umpteen "occult" traditions that have no mention of Satan or Lucifer (or any of the 2 billion names the Bible calls him).

This is not really true. Pretty much every single occult system is fundamentally Satanic in their core teachings, which are always about achieving enlightenment, spiritual awakening or contact with some kind of divine essence. This is literally the core teaching of every occult system I've ever studied.[Satanic systems usually don't explicitly mention Satan, and if they even do it isn't until the highest level (most secret) teachings. They simply talk about enlightenment and mankind's ability to redeem himself through secret knowledge.

(07-12-2015 04:52 PM)Chick Magnet Wrote:  

And for the ones that do...

So what? Even if Satan exists...

Lets play devil's advocate for a second. Who's to say that the Bible hasn't unfairly villainized him?!

Maybe God (ya know the guy who wiped out mankind in the flood) is the bad guy. And Satan is truly the angel of light. Something to think about...

Something to think about...

So this quest for knowledge is inherently satanic then? Spoken like a true Christian.

Nice gif...no doubt posted in the frustration of not being able to debate effectively.

[scorpion]

(07-12-2015 05:55 PM)Chick Magnet Wrote:  

So this quest for knowledge is inherently satanic then? Spoken like a true Christian.

Nice gif...no doubt posted in the frustration of not being able to debate effectively.

The quest for knowledge is not Satanic. In fact, the vast majority of scientific discoveries in human history came out of Christian Europe. A proper understanding of God motivates us to discover and understand the amazingly intricate workings of the world he created.

What is Satanic, however, is the quest for secret spiritual knowledge or some kind of unique spiritual enlightenment. This is the way that Satan deceives people away from the Truth (God) - by enticing them with some kind of "extra" or hidden knowledge that will enable them to surpass their normal human limitations. Put yourself in the shoes of Satan. How do you think you would draw people away from God? Would you be like, "Hey dudes, come over to the side of evil! You'll suffer eternal damnation but we're a lot more fun! Hail Satan!"

What kind of idiot would fall for that?

No, you would flatter peoples' egos. You would lie to them. You would tell them exactly what they wanted to hear - that they didn't need God at all, that enlightenment/spiritual awakening to the divine essence was within their own ability. You would flavor your lies with numerous different spices so as to appeal to a broad range of people (the different flavors of the occult), but ultimately all would lead to the same core message: the rejection of God in favor of human power and understanding.

[Chick Magnet]

(07-12-2015 07:15 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(07-12-2015 05:55 PM)Chick Magnet Wrote:  

So this quest for knowledge is inherently satanic then? Spoken like a true Christian.

Nice gif...no doubt posted in the frustration of not being able to debate effectively.

The quest for knowledge is not Satanic. In fact, the vast majority of scientific discoveries in human history came out of Christian Europe. A proper understanding of God motivates us to discover and understand the amazingly intricate workings of the world he created.

Rubbish.

Ancient Greece (pagans fyi) started Western civilization. Rome (also pagan) carried the torch. And during the Dark Ages (under the stewardship of the Church), Europe lost most of that knowledge,
It didn't really regain that knowledge until the Enlightenment, when again reason prevailed over dogma.

Quote:

What is Satanic, however, is the quest for secret spiritual knowledge or some kind of unique spiritual enlightenment.

Forgive me Pastor Scorpion, but I don't think the Bible has a monopoly on spiritual truths.

Frankly, in the grand scheme of things, Christianity is the new kid on the block. It's an immature religion as are it's practitioners.

If I choose to seek the "truth" elsewhere, and that makes me a satanist, then so be it. I could really care less.

[Truth Teller]

The Dark Ages never happened. The common myth that the Church suppressed pagan knowledge hasn't held up against historical research.

[Class-8]

I have seen magic and other occult things when I lived in an area that was a majority christian. Many things that we read about do not even scratch the surface of the occult. A main rule in those circles is you cannot ever speak of the details.

I will not say much, because it is really unbelievable unless you experience that kind of evil focus.

[Class-8]

I think understand exactly where you are coming from, chick magnet. Truth is truth, right? The difference is where that truth comes from, and at what cost to self. I will have to tell you this: you will never know whether it is worth it until you experience it. like driving a car badly, it is hard to know what the consequences are, that is until someone gets hurt.

As of this moment, can you honestly say that you have seen the inner workings of the occult?

One more thing; occult practices vary by location, so what we think of occult is relatively tame compared to other parts of the world.

[Lizard King]

(07-12-2015 09:34 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

The Dark Ages never happened. The common myth that the Church suppressed pagan knowledge hasn't held up against historical research.

I'm glad someone mentioned this. I was going to post about it in another thread a few weeks ago, I can't remember which one.

The Dark Ages was a pejorative term, coined in the 14th Century, to make the contemporary time seem better.

(07-10-2015 06:34 PM)Moto Wrote:  

Haven't we all reached for our phone a split second before receiving a text message, about to text that same person, or maybe expecting a text from that person? Coincidence I think not.

That has nothing to do with 'magick', and everything to do with telepathy.

Check out the research done by Dr. Rupert Sheldrake.

He has researched telepathy in humans and animals.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(07-12-2015 07:15 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

The quest for knowledge is not Satanic. In fact, the vast majority of scientific discoveries in human history came out of Christian Europe. A proper understanding of God motivates us to discover and understand the amazingly intricate workings of the world he created.

What is Satanic, however, is the quest for secret spiritual knowledge or some kind of unique spiritual enlightenment. This is the way that Satan deceives people away from the Truth (God) - by enticing them with some kind of "extra" or hidden knowledge that will enable them to surpass their normal human limitations. Put yourself in the shoes of Satan. How do you think you would draw people away from God? Would you be like, "Hey dudes, come over to the side of evil! You'll suffer eternal damnation but we're a lot more fun! Hail Satan!"

Frankly we have to disagree on that. Plenty of saints had out of body experiences like Teresa of Avila or St. Francis of Assisi. Teresa even wrote a booklet that mentioned reincarnation and there ware attempts to burn her at the stake as it was the times of the Spanish Inquisition, but she had actual enlightenment and a love that many people could feel while being in her presence.

Usually a good measure is to find out whether the experiences give you more inner peace and love or not.

Besides - most high-level folk in the organized religions are just mentally strong in their path and have no significant spiritual growth whatsoever. The few who actually use the scriptures as springboards for a better inner and outer life are few and far in between. I witnessed quite a few of those Christians and when they talked to priests it was as if a beacon of light was standing next to a dark stone.

Apart from that - life is full of choices and some want to explore the dark aspects of life and it's up to them to do so.

[The Beast1]

(07-12-2015 02:05 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

At the bottom of the rabbit hole, Freemasonry, Occultism, Kabbalah, Theosophy, New Age teachings, Magick, etc... are simply Satanic in nature. If you read the works of Helena Blavatsky and Manly P. Hall they make it very clear that their ultimate spiritual enlightenment comes from a being called Lucifer. They claim that this Lucifer is some sort of spirit or angel of light who seeks to enlighten mankind and teach us to essentially become gods. They deny that Lucifer and the Biblical Satan are the same being, which would be a rather strange coincidence in and of itself, and which is made even more unbelievable by the fact that Satan used the exact same technique to trick Adam and Eve that Lucifer uses today (the offer of secret knowledge which will make men into gods).

Genesis 3:1-7 Wrote:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Lucifer and Satan are quite clearly the same being: http://www.gotquestions.org/Lucifer-Satan.html

The Bible says flat out that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

A good, short introduction to the connection between Lucifer/Satan and Occultism: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2002/c...ucifer.htm

These occultist beliefs date back millennia to the ancient mystery schools and are preserved in the highest level teachings of occultism and within today's secret societies. No one suddenly decides, "Hey, let's worship the Devil!" Rather, the process is a slow and gradual one, initiated through deception and flattery, where the victim is convinced that he can unlock his potential through some secret knowledge. This is the great lie of Satan. There is no hidden knowledge. The truth has no reason to hide. The truth is out in the open and available to all men. The only thing that can prevent men from coming to full knowledge of the truth is their own hubris.

Gnostic tradition paints a very different story of creation. Have you considered that Orthodoxy might be an evil creator God's way of continuing his enslavement of man?

Take a page out of Greek tradition, Prometheus gave the humans the knowledge of fire which greatly improved the human condition. Key word knowledge. He was ultimately punished by the Gods. Does't this story sound similar to an apple of knowledge being given to a certain naked couple?

What if this knowledge was that their creator locked them in a prison of flesh and boundless pleasure which denied them the spiritual union that they longed for? Sounds kind of familiar today where we see people locked away in effortless hedonism.

The more I look at ancient religions, the more I realize that there isn't just one "be all end all creature", but many beings that are above and below each other. The sad thing is, we get this "light vs dark" explanation from Orthodox teachers which doesn't tell us the complete story.

Stick with Jesus' only commandment, "Love others as you love yourself" and look critically at all the mythologies. You'll begin to notice similar characters, symbols, and motifs that create a much bigger picture of what is going on.

So long as I stick with Jesus' commandment like a very long rope to bring me back to sanity, I see no real fear of delving down this rabbit hole.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

The problem with magic, esoterism and the like is not in its morality or satanic (lack of) connections, but simply its pointlessness. None of these supernatural things have ever been confirmed. None have ever been independently replicated. There are no discrepancies that would point to any supernatural power existing or (even less likely) being available to humans in this fashion.

It says a lot about Aleister Crowley & C.O. that the whole thing makes even less sense than God, who is also unprovable but at least offers some consistency.

For such a supposedly devious and powerful being, Satan sure ends up being one of the most boring and inane concepts in world mythology.

[richler]

The Western hermetic traditions do refer to the being named as Satan, or the adversary, in the scripture. On this Scorpion is correct.

These same traditions, however, interpret the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians in a way that is critical of Yahweh, or God.

They also seek to detach the identities of Satan ("the adversary"), Lucifer ("the light-bringer") and the serpent.

Thus we find the spectacle of Lucifer and demons mentioned in a way that appears not to treat them as evil incarnate, or as a fundamentally evil principle. This, they generally assert, is an error and (more perniciously) an aspect of a control mechanism that extends straight from the governance of the churches into more subtle realms.

Christians and even more agnostic parties are wise to approach with caution, distrust or not to approach at all. But the question here is the nature of the entity "Yahweh". And on that score, the scriptures and the hermetic tradition differ profoundly.

Gnostic thought, and much of Western occultism, tends to view Yahweh as a sort of prison-god. Stranger still is the discussion of a "Christ principle" that is true in an esoteric sense yet detached from Yeshua of Nazareth and opposed in a sense to Yahweh.

[Frost]

Whatever your personal beliefs regarding occult rituals and symbolism, it's pretty obvious that smart and powerful people put a lot of stock in them. It could just be in-group signalling mechanisms for a secular cult of power in a materialist world, or it could be something that we don't completely understand. Either way, it's worth knowing about.

Re: Scorpion and Zelcorpion, I don't see how Christianity is inherently opposed to magic and hidden knowledge. In fact Christianity is full of invocations of supernatural aid, whether through prayer, sacramental rituals, miracles, etc. The important question is: to whom are you going for help?

Personally, I don't mess with what I construe to be "dark" magic. Either it's silly, and thus ineffective, or it's real, in which case... well, there might be consequences I'd rather not pay. But I regularly invoke the magic of the Lord's Prayer and various psalms. Even if there's nothing supernatural at work, it's good mindset/mindfulness/NLP training.

OP, have you read Manly P Hall's Secret Teachings of All Ages? I found it to be a good introduction to this world, especially if you've previously read some Jung and Joseph Campbell.

[richler]

One magical blog I really enjoy is runesoup.com.

This guy is very light and perceptive and contemporary, not much fucking around with capes and wands but a lot of heavy inquiry into the nature of consciousness and perception.

He is funny, too.

[scorpion]

(07-13-2015 02:08 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

Frankly we have to disagree on that. Plenty of saints had out of body experiences like Teresa of Avila or St. Francis of Assisi. Teresa even wrote a booklet that mentioned reincarnation and there ware attempts to burn her at the stake as it was the times of the Spanish Inquisition, but she had actual enlightenment and a love that many people could feel while being in her presence.

The major difference between these divine experiences and occultism is that those Christians did not intentionally go seeking out secret knowledge. If what they experienced was real (we cannot know, though I am skeptical of most claims), then it was given to them by the grace and will of God, not by their choice to seek it out. The motivation of someone seeking esoteric knowledge is by definition selfish: they are seeking to enlighten themselves by accessing knowledge denied to the mass of humanity. The message of Christ, in contrast, is selfless, and he instructed his disciples to proclaim it loudly to all people from all nations. The contrast could not be more stark.

The Beast1 Wrote:

Gnostic tradition paints a very different story of creation. Have you considered that Orthodoxy might be an evil creator God's way of continuing his enslavement of man?

Take a page out of Greek tradition, Prometheus gave the humans the knowledge of fire which greatly improved the human condition. Key word knowledge. He was ultimately punished by the Gods. Does't this story sound similar to an apple of knowledge being given to a certain naked couple?

What if this knowledge was that their creator locked them in a prison of flesh and boundless pleasure which denied them the spiritual union that they longed for? Sounds kind of familiar today where we see people locked away in effortless hedonism.

Ignoring theological arguments entirely, Gnosticism simply doesn't make much sense. Why should we default to believe that God is evil? Is that more logical that defaulting to believe that he is good? Or to pose the problem of evil in reverse, if the creator of the world was evil, why would there be any good in the world at all? There are much more convincing arguments for why a Good God would temporarily allow evil than for why an evil God would allow any good whatsoever. Moreover, why would an evil God incarnate himself into the world (Jesus Christ) and teach only goodness and love? And if God is evil, why has he allowed so much good to be done in his name? The Christian religion has spread hope, goodwill and charity to billions of people across the entire world. It has been the most positive force for good in human history. Is that the fruit generated by an evil God? In contrast, what does Satan, the supposed gnostic good guy teach? Pure selfishness and hedonism. "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law," is the Satanic credo. The entire gnostic tradition is, in my opinion, an obvious Satanic deception, an attempt to corrupt the Christian religion in its infancy.

Frost Wrote:

Re: Scorpion and Zelcorpion, I don't see how Christianity is inherently opposed to magic and hidden knowledge. In fact Christianity is full of invocations of supernatural aid, whether through prayer, sacramental rituals, miracles, etc. The important question is: to whom are you going for help?

The short answer is that Christianity is a fully revealed religion. There are no spiritual truths available to man outside of those revealed in the Bible, and thus any attempt to find non-Biblical spiritual truth will only result in exposing oneself to deliberate deception or well-intentioned but ultimately false teaching. Some verses to support this:

Jesus answered him, “I have spoken openly to the world. I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together. I have said nothing in secret." - John 18:20

The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. - Deuteronomy 29:29

Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God. - Leviticus 19:31

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. - 1 John 4:1-3

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. - 2 Timothy 4:3-4

And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD. - Deuteronomy 8:3

[eL-JJ]

(07-11-2015 01:14 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

I am totally into this too. H1N1 you should check out Freemasonry. A lot of their initiation processes are ritualistic magick. Google how a Freemason initiation process works at each level and then check to see where the ritual magick comes in.

If you want a really interesting bit to delve down into take a look at occult symbolism. Freemasonry also has a ton of this as well. I'm of the belief that there's power in symbolism.

I have a really long "datasheet" written up on Astrology and how to use it for tracking cycles. It has been hanging out in drafts forever as I don't think in its current form it's very useful. I won't lie, I am a bit ashamed to post it since the rational side of me thinks i'm nuts.

As it is above, so it is below.

Same, im really interested in all of that, i even have a contact to get into freemasonry here in México, you get in by having a sponsor, so i only need to make the move, its all male and recognized, for the females there is the morning star lodge, they practice alot of magick (brujería) and astrology, the men not so much, they focus more on symbolism and self improvement for men.

[The Beast1]

(07-13-2015 06:41 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

The Beast1 Wrote:

Gnostic tradition paints a very different story of creation. Have you considered that Orthodoxy might be an evil creator God's way of continuing his enslavement of man?

Take a page out of Greek tradition, Prometheus gave the humans the knowledge of fire which greatly improved the human condition. Key word knowledge. He was ultimately punished by the Gods. Does't this story sound similar to an apple of knowledge being given to a certain naked couple?

What if this knowledge was that their creator locked them in a prison of flesh and boundless pleasure which denied them the spiritual union that they longed for? Sounds kind of familiar today where we see people locked away in effortless hedonism.

Ignoring theological arguments entirely, Gnosticism simply doesn't make much sense. Why should we default to believe that God is evil? Is that more logical that defaulting to believe that he is good? Or to pose the problem of evil in reverse, if the creator of the world was evil, why would there be any good in the world at all? There are much more convincing arguments for why a Good God would temporarily allow evil than for why an evil God would allow any good whatsoever. Moreover, why would an evil God incarnate himself into the world (Jesus Christ) and teach only goodness and love? And if God is evil, why has he allowed so much good to be done in his name? The Christian religion has spread hope, goodwill and charity to billions of people across the entire world. It has been the most positive force for good in human history. Is that the fruit generated by an evil God? In contrast, what does Satan, the supposed gnostic good guy teach? Pure selfishness and hedonism. "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law," is the Satanic credo. The entire gnostic tradition is, in my opinion, an obvious Satanic deception, an attempt to corrupt the Christian religion in its infancy.

Scorpian,

I want you to know that I greatly respect your opinion and content of your posts. However, I don't see the point in arguing with you because you are lacking a fundamental understanding of Gnosticism and how the Holy Trinity work as a whole.

Nowhere in my post do I advocate throwing away Christian values and engaging in selfish hedonism. That violates Jesus' only law. Remember, Jesus summed up all of Moses' 10 commandments into the one golden rule.

The Father, son, and the Holy Ghost are are one and the same. Their difference is in their order of descension from the "fall".

I suggest you read up on the basics of the Trinity and some of the translated Gnostic coptic texts (http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html) . Approach them with an open mind.

If you're too steeped in dogma, which sadly it sounds like you are, then go to a bible study and continue studying the same 66 books you've been taught to as a child. For the record, your adherence to dogmatic orthodoxy came from Emperor Constantine forcing church leaders and scholars into a narrow interpretation of the bible at the council of Nicea. Prior to that, there were many well known teachers who were students themselves of some big name early church individuals (Paul for example) who were forced to hide their teachings.

Let those of us who are more inclined dabble with the spiritual fire if you're too scared to study it.

[Truth Teller]

(07-14-2015 11:28 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

If you're too steeped in dogma, which sadly it sounds like you are, then go to a bible study and continue studying the same 66 books you've been taught to as a child. For the record, your adherence to dogmatic orthodoxy came from Emperor Constantine forcing church leaders and scholars into a narrow interpretation of the bible at the council of Nicea. Prior to that, there were many well known teachers who were students themselves of some big name early church individuals (Paul for example) who were forced to hide their teachings.

Your statement is largely untrue, and it almost sounds like it's from the Da Vinci Code. Nicea discusses the Arian Heresy and establishes the relationship between God the Father and the Son. Constantine isn't "forcing" the early Church into any interpretation of the Bible; they've already settled what the bible actually says. Orthodoxy, by this point, has developed from the 1st century roots (under Peter and Paul) to become the dominant Christian ideology. Splinter groups, such as Gnosticism and Docetism, have appeared largely in reaction to orthodoxy (Gnosticism's relationship isn't totally certain, as I've said in other places).

The Gnostic gospels, as well as the Nag Hammadi material, largely dates from AD 150 or later. That's over 120 years after Jesus dies on the cross. The early Church essentially takes what exists when Revelation comes around (about AD 110 at latest) and calls it canonical. There's no conspiracy to leave these books out. The NT, as we know it, has essentially been codified by the 2nd century. Gnostic gospels, such as the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Judas, appear in the late 3rd and early 4th centuries.

On the other hand, orthodoxy develops fairly early (see Larry Hurtado's Lord Jesus Christ on this and Dunn's Jesus Remembered).

[LeBeau]

(07-12-2015 02:05 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

At the bottom of the rabbit hole, Freemasonry, Occultism, Kabbalah, Theosophy, New Age teachings, Magick, etc... are simply Satanic in nature.

I'd be interested in hearing more about this stance on Freemasonry.

I know protestant priests that are Freemasons.

Freemasonry demands a belief in God for initiates and Bibles are frequently used at their meetings.

And while the Catholic Church has historically been against Freemasonry, even some of their own higher ups have supported leniency towards Catholics becoming Masons.

[Hades]

I risk looking like a moron posting here and don't put a lot of stock in any of this, and that includes religion and magic, but if you were going to become actually powerful and get something done and not just sit around invoking a few lines of dead language gibberish incantations over burning feathers and incense then you might as well get your hands dirty and appeal to Satan. Otherwise every minute you still have your soul is basically time wasted you could have spent fucking with people and flaunting your powers for your own amusement, and I'm not just making allusions to Faust on this one. He had it right.

That's pretty much why I'm going to side with Scorpion on this one. What would magic and the occult be if not a path to gain knowledge and power? It's more than possible, then, that at the very root of the occult is just devil worship, since Satan is basically the biggest and most powerful entity out there, outside of God, and He holds no stock in the occult.

And just because there are or may be parts of magic and the occult which aim to separate themselves wholly from devil worship doesn't mean that there's still not some kind of hidden agenda therein. I'm sure that the biggest and nastiest prostitutes in the world started out when their boss or whoever asked them to "be nice" to a client and take them out to dinner, and it just continued on a slow and insistent stream of persuasion until they were flown on a plane to Dubai to get shit on by oil sheikhs and blow donkeys. You've got to draw the line somewhere (in other words) so if you're not a serious practitioner or you are just interested in reading about the history then say so immediately and divorce yourself from that crowd.

All that I know about the occult and magic is from what I've seen on the TV series Supernatural, which is another guilty pleasure of mine outside of all y'all's moms.

Edit: Also H1N1 to draw this in more specific terms if you're finding a hard time refuting something written by Crowley, sure he was a smart guy and all that, but sometimes what you have to do is step back and decide fundamentally what point he is actually trying to get across. Sometimes you might find that all that's written there is just a bunch of fancy bullshit steeped in platitudes, masquerading as real knowledge. Pretty much all cult leaders have some skill at doing that. Maybe it's interesting and neat food for thought, and it might even be good game (I have no idea how many chicks are into this but I imagine it's quite a few) but if you don't have a strong religious background it might be unwise to study this. Of course only you can know this truly for yourself. Even then for some things you literally need god armor.

For instance, pretty much all the "equal rights humanists" and "socialist liberals" I went to high school with are now avowed man-hating anti-white-privilege pro-gay-marriage Tumblr feminists, and it's because feminism subverts a natural altruistic impulse held by pretty much all idealists and makes them feel like they're doing a good thing when they're actually just shitting all over society to put pussy a little higher on an already unreachable pedestal. I can literally quote the Bible to say here to forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do. I managed to resist the urge to become a feminist despite being somewhat liberal as a kid because when I went to college I didn't hold anybody's opinion to be worth a shit. In what world would the wisdom of a bunch of dipshits who never even held a real job in their lives and who couldn't even spell supersede my own? For most of my open minded and better socialized friends it was inevitable that they'd become converted, and it's because they had no critical thinking skills or a structured belief system already.

[The Beast1]

(07-14-2015 03:04 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 11:28 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

If you're too steeped in dogma, which sadly it sounds like you are, then go to a bible study and continue studying the same 66 books you've been taught to as a child. For the record, your adherence to dogmatic orthodoxy came from Emperor Constantine forcing church leaders and scholars into a narrow interpretation of the bible at the council of Nicea. Prior to that, there were many well known teachers who were students themselves of some big name early church individuals (Paul for example) who were forced to hide their teachings.

Your statement is largely untrue, and it almost sounds like it's from the Da Vinci Code. Nicea discusses the Arian Heresy and establishes the relationship between God the Father and the Son. Constantine isn't "forcing" the early Church into any interpretation of the Bible; they've already settled what the bible actually says. Orthodoxy, by this point, has developed from the 1st century roots (under Peter and Paul) to become the dominant Christian ideology. Splinter groups, such as Gnosticism and Docetism, have appeared largely in reaction to orthodoxy (Gnosticism's relationship isn't totally certain, as I've said in other places).

The Gnostic gospels, as well as the Nag Hammadi material, largely dates from AD 150 or later. That's over 120 years after Jesus dies on the cross. The early Church essentially takes what exists when Revelation comes around (about AD 110 at latest) and calls it canonical. There's no conspiracy to leave these books out. The NT, as we know it, has essentially been codified by the 2nd century. Gnostic gospels, such as the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Judas, appear in the late 3rd and early 4th centuries.

On the other hand, orthodoxy develops fairly early (see Larry Hurtado's Lord Jesus Christ on this and Dunn's Jesus Remembered).

I never read the Da Vinci code so sadly the reference has gone over my head (truth is stranger than fiction).

However there were many Christian groups around that same 1st and 2nd century time frame that went contrary to what was codified by Nicea. Off the top of my head there were the Valentinians, who were especially active around the 2nd century. Just because the books were codified doesn't mean that they made arbitrary decisions to keep specific books out of it.

Early church leaders called all of these groups heretics and very quickly killed them off. Same thing happened to Martin Luther 1500 years later.

The First Council of Nicaea took place in the 3rd century with Constantine commissioning fifty bibles for the church in Constantinople. The actual biblical canon wasn't set in place until around late 3rd century (apologies my information was off in my last post). It wasn't until the 5th century that the bible we know of as today was set in place.