[PhDre]

^^Red Pill view on treatment with drugs, vitamins or any other substance: Do your research from a variety of sources, then try it yourself and see how it works for you.

I agree with you about the controlled experiments. However, the problem is that experiments cost money. In the case of a good drug study (double-blind, multiple years, large sample size, controlled or corrected for other variables) that becomes a very large amount of money, typically hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars.

This money comes from two sources: the pharma industry itself, that obviously wants a (big) return on its investment, or the government, which is totally influenced and corrupted by the industry's lobby.

[Kaizen]

(06-04-2015 07:55 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Zelcorpian - isn't strange that people who defend current medical science sound awfully like game denialists?

Seems you have trouble with anyone who doesn't agree with you.

[Samseau]

(06-04-2015 02:49 PM)Kaizen Wrote:  

(06-04-2015 07:55 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Zelcorpian - isn't strange that people who defend current medical science sound awfully like game denialists?

Seems you have trouble with anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Or people who present zero arguments yet expect to be taken seriously

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(06-04-2015 10:48 AM)PhDre Wrote:  

^^Red Pill view on treatment with drugs, vitamins or any other substance: Do your research from a variety of sources, then try it yourself and see how it works for you.

I agree with you about the controlled experiments. However, the problem is that experiments cost money. In the case of a good drug study (double-blind, multiple years, large sample size, controlled or corrected for other variables) that becomes a very large amount of money, typically hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars.

This money comes from two sources: the pharma industry itself, that obviously wants a (big) return on its investment, or the government, which is totally influenced and corrupted by the industry's lobby.

Actually experiments would not even be so expensive if the pharma lobby did not make it so. There are many ways to achieve the same goal - if you make it deliberately expensive to attain medical treatment / certified drug status (Phase 3 costs 100 mio. $ + in some cases), then nothing is going to pass that bar unless it is a patentable treatment or drug. In addition - you need FDA mafia approval (stacked with ex- and pre-pharma-biz employees) to even go ahead with such a trial. Many times a trial was refused despite no credible reason whatsoever.

So essentially you need to make several hundred millions off it in order to pass that threshold. Finding a herbal, vitamin or specialized high-frequency cure would not make enough money since anyone can offer that product or service right after you have made sure it is FDA approved. Great system indeed we've got there. Also whenever you offer one such treatment they probably take into account what they are replacing. If your current drugs/treatment make 10-100 bio. $ / year worldwide and you replace it with 2 bio. $ and no patents, then they are going rather to kill and rape villages (discredit and fire doctors, block studies, stop test trials etc.) before it ever reaches the light of day. They would literally prefer to burn it all down than to let it become known.

Contrary to what others may believe - I think that doctors would embrace such treatments, since many want to help their patients without causing them unnecessary pain and hardship. It is incredibly easy to control knowledge at the very top, so when a MD researches something he finds "quack, quack, quack" and that's the end of the story. Next day he turns around and the modern version of bloodletting continues.

[Thaitanium]

I have been using Dutasteride capsules since february 2010. I turn 33 in two weeks. One 0,15 mg capsule every day. Went to a specialist clinic for it. They talked openly about side effects like having a decreased libido. They also mentioned that the effects would last max 10 years. Have to say i'm usually horny as fuck and have had no problems in that department. But maybe that's because I travel to Asia regularly

The hair loss has stopped , but I am thinking more and more to just shave it. Also a bit concerned about the long lasting effects, if they start happening later in live. Basicly, so far I did not have any bad side effects, but who knows what will happen later. Maybe I will continue for a bit, or maybe I will just start shaving my head.

[RIslander]

Samseau - Thank you for the post, +1.

I think its pretty well known among the red pill community that big pharma is only interested in making money. The devastating side affects that have hit propecia users will never get an ounce of media attention because of the media's stigma of balding men. Look how they're ridiculed on TV... As much as I love Seinfeld, the George Costanza character did serious damage to men with MPB. The media has essentially linked balding men with insecurity, making these men to be viewed as clowns.

The only true cure to baldness is this:


To all the posters arguing with Sam... I have to disagree with you. Some people may have no side affects, but those that have them could have their lives destroyed. No vanity is worth such risks.

[Beyond Borders]

(06-03-2015 02:46 AM)civpro Wrote:  

Just LOL at what men have to do to remain competitive in today's dating market - straight up mutilate themselves, even alter their biochemistry.

- Lifting: Pummel your joints and wrench your back for years on end, possibly crippling yourself.
- Roids: Inject foreign chemicals into your bloodstream and watch your hair fall out, your tits grow, your nuts die, your skin flare up, your face bloat.
- Tats: Literally etch stupid symbols onto your body that will stay there forever, until you are DEAD.
- Fin: Chemically castrate yourself and kill your dick to hang on to a few hairs.

Nah.

Men don't have to do any of those things to be competitive in today's dating market.

[N°6]

(05-31-2015 08:04 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Your testosterone is way more valuable than your hair. Trust me. I learned the hard way. Most guys don't realize just how essential this gift from God is until you don't have it. Without testosterone functioning properly, you cannot grow muscles, fuck women, or even think straight. It's essential to every function as a man.

If this is my post on this forum, this lesson is what I will take with me.

The Kingdom of God is within me.

[redbeard]

Hair is very important to me. It's rare for me to see guys who have hair better than me, and if they do, it's only because of intense grooming protocols (whereas only coconut oil and water touch my mane). I am still young but am watching to take preventative measures against baldness.

I read the first page of this thread and was scared shitless...and then this thread devolved into a science vs. medicine vs. red pill debate.

But that's neither here nor there. I came to tell a story. My dad is 55 and has been bald for a long time. He has recently gotten into the paleo movement () so I asked him hey, why do you think people bald. He said:

"Baldness is caused by excess testosterone. That's why they give us Propecia - it lowers testosterone levels."





Any scientific basis to the first claim?

[fiasco360]

Just an observation: it seems like people who are anti-finasteride aren't willing to budge in their position at all yet except others to do exactly that.

Arguing without intention of ever changing your opinion isn't really worthwhile. But most message boards do suffer from a problem of group think.

I'd like to see the input of a person who actually works in the industry as a biochemist or collaborates within it. Problem is that most likely won't happen, everyone (including the vitamin pushing people) have agendas. Although I have read quite a bit on the drug and about the processes it affects, I won't pretend to be an expert on chemistry/biology/neurology/endocrinology etc.

Samseau, your initial post does seem rather alarmist. Just my 2 cents. I do like a lot of your other posts though.

For reference I don't take Finasteride but have considered it.

[tomtud]

I take propecia (finasteride) to say it stopped any more hairloss is hard to prove as who knows taking it or not how your hair will shape up to be. What I do know is that I still have a lot of hair and considering many men my age have way less, it's a good thing,,,, nobody wants to lose their hair.
As for libido,,, I thought I had decreased libido,,,, but i am fine in that department. I feel that stress is worse than finasteride for your
libido.

Until there is some magic pill to regrow hair , finasteride I believe does help some people. Just gotta make an effort to see how it works.
Edit,,,,as I said earlier I didn't really know if it had an effect or not... I can say this,,, when I shampoo my hair, I have less hair in my plans than I did before finasteride. Is it because of the drug? My lifestyle change?

[civpro]

(06-07-2015 10:58 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(06-03-2015 02:46 AM)civpro Wrote:  

Just LOL at what men have to do to remain competitive in today's dating market - straight up mutilate themselves, even alter their biochemistry.

- Lifting: Pummel your joints and wrench your back for years on end, possibly crippling yourself.
- Roids: Inject foreign chemicals into your bloodstream and watch your hair fall out, your tits grow, your nuts die, your skin flare up, your face bloat.
- Tats: Literally etch stupid symbols onto your body that will stay there forever, until you are DEAD.
- Fin: Chemically castrate yourself and kill your dick to hang on to a few hairs.

Nah.

Men don't have to do any of those things to be competitive in today's dating market.

What country are you in again? Cambodia?

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(06-29-2015 09:09 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

"Baldness is caused by excess testosterone. That's why they give us Propecia - it lowers testosterone levels."


Any scientific basis to the first claim?

Yeah - that is the standard response of mainstream medicine, but it is only part of the picture.

1) 5% of men won't go bald ever since 100% of their hair is the ones that females have and men have on the sides and back. Those will grow for life. That is why same hair transplants take your genetic eternal hair from the sides and back and transplant them on the top. Current research wants to clone that hair of yours and transplant them once on top. This will probably be achieved in a few years and all men with cash will have full hair for life after just one procedure.

2) Mainstream misses completely the importance of nutrition. For example if you cut out sugar and take high dosage of vitamins and minareals with a good dose of choline (lecithin), then most men keep their hair for much longer. Especially B-group, zinc and choline are essential nutrients there.

Testosterone under that condition plays little role there.

[Guitarman]

Going bald means you have good testosterone and you are are therefore a masculine man and that is attractive to women. Just shave the head and don't worry about hair loss. I don't and I've been bald/ balding for over 20 years.

If a woman doesn't like you because you are bald she's not worth gaming anyway.

[germanico]

(06-29-2015 09:09 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

"Baldness is caused by excess testosterone. That's why they give us Propecia - it lowers testosterone levels."


Any scientific basis to the first claim?

Finasteride was first developed as a prostate inflammation treatment. In testing, they discovered that some of the balding test subjects grew some hair back, so they saw a bigger market in it as a hair-loss drug.

So if something that fucks up your testosterone production gives you your hair back, would it be safe to assume that testosterone was the cause of your baldness patterns?

Yes, probably.

Only flaw in that is that there cant be an EXCESS of testosterone. It would be like saying that a Tijuana Donkey has too much cock, thats the whole point of it.

Question here is, whats more important to you? hair, or testosterone?

Hair was important to me too. I used to get complimented on it all the time, even by random people. Hadnt had that happen in years. I was thinking about getting Finasteride, down here in Mexico you can buy it over the counter for cheap. So I did my research and found out that a few men have this side effect.

Ok, only a small percentage of them report side effects. But, whats the percentage of men taking it that are so lame, so fat, so pussified blue pilled slobs to notice any, ANY change in their testosterone levels?

Surely is more than the "1 to 2%" of Finasteride takers that have reported loss of libido, strength, or more.

Coincidentally, this student of mine began taking it, so I told him of my findings and asked him to keep me updated. This guy is a legitimate rockstar, has long, thick caveman hair, exercises regularly, and had regular gigs as a recording artist. A year went by and he said that there where no side effects that he could notice.

But I did. In that year he broke up with his 3 live-in bisexual girls. He complained about the pettiest things where he used to be stoic as fuck. He got depressed and frustrated over things like a girl not returning his calls. He started struggling to get bars to let him play for tip money (from recording with international artists a year before) He was sporting a beer belly when I met him for coffee, where he was a fit freak that rode his bicycle everywhere in the city.

Finasteride did that to him? Would be hard to tell. Would be too much to say it did. But he went from alpha to beta chump with a year.

About my own hair, my hairline is slowly but steadily receeding. Last year for Halloween I shaved my head. It was something I had been thinking of doing for a while, Halloween gave me an excuse, and I figured that if anything, I would have my hair back by december.

I shaved my head, got a pair of glasses and a green shirt and went as Walter White.

I fucked a 20 y.o. college girl that same night. Hardly any effort involved. I met another girl that night whom I started sleeping with a couple weeks ago.

So that night I learned that hair, like money, like looks, are irrelevant.

Game trumps it all.

And testosterone is tightly related to game. It provides the boost, the focus, the motivation. And I wouldnt change that for all the hair in the world.

[Stun]

(07-01-2015 02:35 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

2) Mainstream misses completely the importance of nutrition. For example if you cut out sugar and take high dosage of vitamins and minareals with a good dose of choline (lecithin), then most men keep their hair for much longer. Especially B-group, zinc and choline are essential nutrients there.

Zel, is this documented anywhere evidentially? I've been studying hair loss for years due to my brother losing his hair at a young age, and I've never heard of zinc and choline having anything to do with it. Cutting out sugar and adding B-vitamins, definitely.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(07-01-2015 04:51 PM)Stun Wrote:  

(07-01-2015 02:35 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

2) Mainstream misses completely the importance of nutrition. For example if you cut out sugar and take high dosage of vitamins and minareals with a good dose of choline (lecithin), then most men keep their hair for much longer. Especially B-group, zinc and choline are essential nutrients there.

Zel, is this documented anywhere evidentially? I've been studying hair loss for years due to my brother losing his hair at a young age, and I've never heard of zinc and choline having anything to do with it. Cutting out sugar and adding B-vitamins, definitely.

Quote:

ALOPECIA: Genetic factors aside, zinc deficiency is known to cause alopecia (hair loss) in animals. I think vitamin E and the essential fatty acids linoleic and linolenic acid are also important. I stopped my own hair from thinning by taking lecithin, high doses of the B-complex, and zinc. It has been 12 years now, and I have not lost any more. Will nutrition regrow hair? I doubt it, but it cannot hurt to give it a whirl.

http://www.doctoryourself.com/news/v2n21.html

Site by nutritional expert and orthomolecular doctor (studied medicine, but did not do residency and does not work as a physician).

I took Finasteride for a few years back when I trusted mainstream science fully. Noticed a small decrease of libido, but nothing much to me at least. I stopped some 3+ years as I started orthomolecular supplements and researched more about side effects. Did not notice much hairloss since then.

I have some receding hairlines, but it's not too bad yet. If it continues then I will either shave it like Germanico or will spend the 7000-10000$ and transplant my own thick hair from the sides and back to the top and be done with it. That hair will then continue growing to old age.

But as Germanico said - Game trumps it all.


Something like that.

Krauser - one of the best Daygamers in the world lost most of his hair in his early 30s. He is almost 40 now and fucks hot girls in their prime - just shaved it off, optimized his look, became a master in Game. Full hair alone would have done shit in that respect.

[Stun]

Finasteride increases, does not decrease serum testosterone.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14624915

[germanico]

(07-02-2015 04:13 PM)Stun Wrote:  

Finasteride increases, does not decrease serum testosterone.

Could that, perhaps, mean that the testosterone is not being absorbed by your body?

[fiasco360]

(07-01-2015 02:35 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 09:09 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

"Baldness is caused by excess testosterone. That's why they give us Propecia - it lowers testosterone levels."


Any scientific basis to the first claim?

Yeah - that is the standard response of mainstream medicine, but it is only part of the picture.

1) 5% of men won't go bald ever since 100% of their hair is the ones that females have and men have on the sides and back. Those will grow for life. That is why same hair transplants take your genetic eternal hair from the sides and back and transplant them on the top. Current research wants to clone that hair of yours and transplant them once on top. This will probably be achieved in a few years and all men with cash will have full hair for life after just one procedure.

2) Mainstream misses completely the importance of nutrition. For example if you cut out sugar and take high dosage of vitamins and minareals with a good dose of choline (lecithin), then most men keep their hair for much longer. Especially B-group, zinc and choline are essential nutrients there.

Testosterone under that condition plays little role there.

What are female hairs? Do you mean hairs that are less sucsceptible to DHT? You do realize finasteride actually INCREASES testosterone right? It decreases DHT. You will also lose the hair on top of your head that is still susceptible so 99% of the time you are heavily recommended to take propecia following hair transplants so you aren't patchy all over the top.

For the alternative, there are many people online (which apparently is a credible source) who have done the vitamin/mineral therapy and haven't had results. There is a book out there called "hair like a fox" and while the author does do his due diligence to research, I don't see many people claiming it to be a miracle.

(07-01-2015 04:33 PM)germanico Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 09:09 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

"Baldness is caused by excess testosterone. That's why they give us Propecia - it lowers testosterone levels."


Any scientific basis to the first claim?

Finasteride was first developed as a prostate inflammation treatment. In testing, they discovered that some of the balding test subjects grew some hair back, so they saw a bigger market in it as a hair-loss drug.

So if something that fucks up your testosterone production gives you your hair back, would it be safe to assume that testosterone was the cause of your baldness patterns?

(snip)

So that night I learned that hair, like money, like looks, are irrelevant.

Game trumps it all.

And testosterone is tightly related to game. It provides the boost, the focus, the motivation. And I wouldnt change that for all the hair in the world.

This is a great story and all and actually has WRONG information to help make your point. I can also attest to someone taking finasteride who is still healthy, gets bloodwork done and has healthy sex life. Your point of reference is a rock star - people who are well known to be mentally unstable. My situation was someone who was relatively emotionally stable and did well. Does that mean my story supersedes yours?

How does being fat blob affect anything? If you already are fat and don't give two shits about anything, then why would you even take finasteride? You're creating a scenario to help make your point. Most people who I know who are fat and out of shape don't really give a shit about how they look. Hell, wouldn't you notice the effects more then if you're taking a 5-AR inhibtor and already have a screwed up hormone and lipid profile?

DHT itself really doesn't have an effect on muscle growth, it's testosterone that does.

I'm not even going to address the fact that one single experience made you realize hair, money and looks are irrelevant. Time and history prove you wrong there. Am I denying game? Absolutely not, game is a huge aspect.

(07-02-2015 04:13 PM)Stun Wrote:  

Finasteride increases, does not decrease serum testosterone.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14624915

Bingo.

(07-02-2015 09:58 PM)germanico Wrote:  

(07-02-2015 04:13 PM)Stun Wrote:  

Finasteride increases, does not decrease serum testosterone.

Could that, perhaps, mean that the testosterone is not being absorbed by your body?

What do you even mean by this?

I think if people are going to be zealots for something, they should know what they are talking about. I'm still relatively clueless about all this since I'm not familiar with neuro/bio/endo aspect of things. I don't think with certain complex processes that Occam's razor is always appropriate.

I'm relatively anti-establishment so I don't necessarily trust the government/pharma/big business but at the same time, do your due diligence and research heavily before you get revved up by an emotional story written on a forum you ALREADY AGREE WITH.

Again, that being said I still HAVEN'T taken the medication. Why? Because I am still giving some credence to the stories I have read online. But for people to come up with a definitive conclusion, especially with their lack of research is pretty ridiculous.

Ask yourself a bunch questions when you encounter new information/studies/testimonials in life (even from your well respected friends):

Why am I reading/learning this?
Why is the conclusion?
Does the evidence support the conclusion?
Do I even understand the evidence to support this conclusion?
What is the motive behind this new information/conclusion?
Who funded this study? What do they gain from it?
Why is there an anti xxxxx forum and how many people are on there?
Are they selling something? An alternative product maybe?
Is there heavy handed group think?

My post will most likely fall on deaf ears since it's not the norm around here, but that's fine.

There are limitless questions to ask yourself about new information. It's up to you to make your own conclusion obviously, but always be critical of both the opposing viewpoint, your friends/colleagues and even your OWN.

[Samseau]

(07-02-2015 04:13 PM)Stun Wrote:  

Finasteride increases, does not decrease serum testosterone.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14624915

Yeah... not really.

Quote:

OBJECTIVES:
To examine the effect of finasteride on serum testosterone in men with benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH).
METHODS:
The Proscar Long-Term Efficacy and Safety Study (PLESS) was a 4-year trial comparing the safety and efficacy of finasteride 5 mg with placebo in 3040 men with moderate to severe symptomatic BPH and enlarged prostates. PLESS included the prospective measurement of annual serum testosterone in a randomly selected subset of patients comprising approximately 10% of the randomized population (n = 301).
RESULTS:
Finasteride treatment led to a modest, but significant (P <0.001), increase relative to placebo in serum testosterone, with this increase greatest in patients who had low baseline testosterone levels. The larger testosterone increases seen in finasteride-treated patients in the lower baseline testosterone tertiles were associated with significant mean reductions relative to placebo at year 4 in body mass index (BMI), ranging from 0.6 to 0.8 kg/m2. No statistically significant between-group difference was found in BMI in the upper testosterone tertile. The sexual adverse experience profiles for finasteride and placebo were similar across the baseline testosterone cohorts examined.

1. DISEASED men aren't good test subjects for healthy men taking the drug.

2. Despite the increase in testosterone, these men still lost a lot of bodyweight!!! Just like I did as described the OP. How can anyone say this drug is safe when the fucking test subjects are suffering like crazy? What is this madness?

Germanico:

Quote:

Could that, perhaps, mean that the testosterone is not being absorbed by your body?

Yes, this seems to be the most likely hypothesis. This is what the guys on the forum I linked in the OP have claimed as well.

As for myself, I am back up to 145 pounds and getting bigger everyday.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(07-05-2015 05:48 PM)fiasco360 Wrote:  

For the alternative, there are many people online (which apparently is a credible source) who have done the vitamin/mineral therapy and haven't had results. There is a book out there called "hair like a fox" and while the author does do his due diligence to research, I don't see many people claiming it to be a miracle.

90%+ of all mainstream big vitamin producers are owned by pharma companies through proxies. Most vitamins have either too low doses, toxic side ingredients, additional ingredients which cancel the effectiveness of the main nutrients, toxic forms of nutrients which are useless or negative to the human body - or they have all of the above. Essentially you have to screen heavily for the right kind of supplements and doses.

Also with hair loss I think that a mixture of diet and supplements is necessary. This is not one of the cases where only supplements will help with 100% efficacy as their genetic conditions may be too strong.

But we don't have data backing it up, though there are countries, local tribes who have an astounding lack of hair loss among men. Nutrition, nutrient dense food, vitamins and minerals in human diet are woefully understudied for known reasons.

My personal experience on this topic is already impressive. I have witnessed so many things being treated at incredibly fast pace with supplements that there is no doubt at all with me. I won't debate this, because it's utterly useless. If you want to believe in mainstream propaganda without having given the alternative neither a scientific reading (plenty of studies out there) and a personal try, then any discussion is meaningless. You can read studies to the end of your days and ponder whether to go left or right - you will be none the wiser by age 90.

A man has to make a calculated guess with regards to which way is more credible. Also he has to have the balls to try a few approaches in alternatives if the current way leaves him doubtful. Poring over conventional studies while ignoring the thousands of alternative studies is ridiculously ineffective.

[Nowak]

Have had only a positive experience with Finasteride. I don't think guys should be universally discouraged from it. Some guys are better candidates than others. Finasteride can also prevent prostate cancer as it is a vasodilator ,if you are worried about hair loss and you have some familial history might not be the worst idea to go and buy some. It also seems to work a lot better with younger men,and since younger men have higher levels of T than over 40's ,wouldn't worry about the limp dick thing too much. Know the risks and weigh them individually.

[Stay]

If people are concerned about taking finasteride consider taking macca powder. They both behave in similar fashions. Not much research has been done on its benefits to hairloss but the prostate has been and results were overall positive. It is thought the benefits could extend to MPB.

Obviously macca powder is famous for being an aphrodisiac so E.D. Worries should not be an issue. If you look around several men have also reported a increased sex drive with finasteride.

Personal experience no side effects and everything else is a waste of time. Minoxidil will slow the process somewhat but if your serious about keeping your hair finasteride is essential. If it effected my sex drive negatively I would drop it in a second.

T levels go up 18% on average. The higher your DHT the more it will go up (25% in tests) however if your in that group you may be at risk of developing gyno. An anti estrogen would be recommended similar situation as steriods.

[Teutatis]

Damn those evil big pharma companies, always looking to make a profit (as opposed to every other business out there), and their countless drugs that help billions all over the world, how dare they create something that might not work perfectly for that specific 0.1% to 1% of the people who see no results from said drug and that only works for the other 99%.