[Menace]

So I'm having trouble achieving the "shredded" look. I don't know if it's what I'm eating or how much (I'm already in a calorie deficit; is cardio essential??). I just feel like there is this layer of fat that refuses to come off. For example, Delicious Tacos (forum member) has a great look (no homo), and I'm fairly certain he doesn't used any drugs to achieve it. I have a little ab definition but it's not that really lean look.

[H1N1]

(04-28-2015 08:56 AM)Menace Wrote:  

So I'm having trouble achieving the "shredded" look. I don't know if it's what I'm eating or how much (I'm already in a calorie deficit; is cardio essential??). I just feel like there is this layer of fat that refuses to come off. For example, Delicious Tacos (forum member) has a great look (no homo), and I'm fairly certain he doesn't used any drugs to achieve it. I have a little ab definition but it's not that really lean look.

Got a picture of this dude to show what you're talking about/that he'd be happy to have you share?

Great shape can vary according to lighting, carb sources, hydration levels, being fatter than you actually think, etc. I think to achieve very low levels of body fat naturally you have to be extraordinarily disciplined, with diet and training, and train more than most people realise, more often than most people realise.

For example, like everyone else on the internet, I am currently about 10%bf (I have a waist just under 32.5" at a height of just over 6'1). With the right lighting, and after a couple of low carb/no carbs that hold water weight days, I can look pretty striated. In the wrong light, after the wrong foods (for appearance) for a couple of days, my midsection can look flat but barely defined. I still have a bottom roll of 'fat' if I hunch myself into a very unflattering pose.

The point of the above is to say that very often we can be constantly dissatisfied with our own appearance, because we still see the bits which aren't perfect, rather than the whole picture. That really lean look is often either genetic, temporary, or the result of drugs. Don't forget, people always present the best version of themselves whenever they can. Someone posting their photo online is, quite sensibly, going to try to find the best photo of themselves they can. For me, if I were putting up a topless photo, I'd make sure to take it in lighting that made everything stand out, flex, and then try to look nonchalant. Equally, a great many ripped people at the beach have spent 2 months dieting hard at the expense of performance to look the way they do for 1-2 weeks of the year. It is not necessarily a sustainable state for the long term. Again, they are presenting their best version for a short period at the expense of performance. And some of them, perhaps many more than you realise, are getting a little assistance.


That said, if you've not yet added fasted cardio, you probably can shift another pound or two through adding it in, assuming you don't increase your calories. I think past a certain point it is easier to increase the deficit through exercise than through total starvation, which is more likely to see you lapsing through binges.

TLr

1. Fasted cardio is your friend, but don't increase calories

2. Understand that most of the ripped photos you see are the result of weeks/months of preparation at the expense of performance, for a short period of effect that is not sustained year round.

3. Know that this is true for most gym bros on the beach too, although a lot are probably assisted with it.

4. Fat burners, once your diet stalls out, may work for you to help with another lb or two.

5. Failing that, Ephedrine, Caffeine, and Aspirin are allegedly an old school bodybuilding stack. I obviously strongly discourage this approach, have never tried it personally, and think you should consult a physician before you even think about it.

[Menace]

Alright, I think that makes sense. Thanks. I don't want to get into the whole body dysmorphia thing where I'm never satisfied. I'll just finish up leaning out soon, and then start slow bulk (which is my actual goal anyway).

[H1N1]

(04-28-2015 10:58 AM)Menace Wrote:  

Alright, I think that makes sense. Thanks. I don't want to get into the whole body dysmorphia thing where I'm never satisfied. I'll just finish up leaning out soon, and then start slow bulk (which is my actual goal anyway).

I think it is the nature of the beast never to be satisfied - there is always a way to make progress, whether it's lifting more at the same weight, losing weight without losing strength, increasing conditioning without losing strength, etc etc. It's natural to want to look and perform better than you currently do, stagnation is death in many ways, so in my view don't worry about being dissatisfied, just keep trying to get closer to your goals, whatever anyone else thinks of them.

[Fortis]

where did delicious tacos show his physique? I keep hearing about it but I've been reading his blog for a while and never seen. Hell of a writer. Anyone have pictures or links?

[Giovonny]

(04-28-2015 08:56 AM)Menace Wrote:  

I'm having trouble achieving the "shredded" look.

How long have you been working to achieve the "shredded" look?

What was your body fat % when you started?

What is your body fat % now?

Do you lift weights or do some form of resistance training? How long have you been lifting?

(04-28-2015 08:56 AM)Menace Wrote:  

is cardio essential?

It depends on your goals and your body type.

In your case, since you are trying to get "shredded" (low body fat %), I think regular cardio is essential.

(04-28-2015 08:56 AM)Menace Wrote:  

I just feel like there is this layer of fat that refuses to come off.

More cardio would probably help with this.

Fasting occasionally might help also.

Learning to manipulate our own bodies can takes years.

It took me nearly 5 years to achieve the "shredded" look and even then, its a struggle to maintain.

Keep fine tuning and making adjustments. Much trial and error is necessary to figure out our own bodies.

*****

Post examples of your diet and workouts for more specific advice.

[Menace]

(04-28-2015 11:46 AM)Giovonny Wrote:  

It took me nearly 5 years to achieve the "shredded" look and even then, its a struggle to maintain.

Keep fine tuning and making adjustments. Much trial and error is necessary to figure out our own bodies.

Gio, I think that's the key piece of information I needed. I guess I did not truly appreciate how long it takes to achieve this look, and so what I'm hoping for is unrealistic given how long I've been dieting and working out. Lifting is part of my life style now, so I suppose results will come in time. Not going to obsess about it anymore.

I'm very much a late starter to this whole thing, but I am now the strongest and fittest I have ever been. Thanks much for putting things in perspective.

[H1N1]

(04-28-2015 03:02 PM)Menace Wrote:  

(04-28-2015 11:46 AM)Giovonny Wrote:  

It took me nearly 5 years to achieve the "shredded" look and even then, its a struggle to maintain.

Keep fine tuning and making adjustments. Much trial and error is necessary to figure out our own bodies.

Gio, I think that's the key piece of information I needed. I guess I did not truly appreciate how long it takes to achieve this look, and so what I'm hoping for is unrealistic given how long I've been dieting and working out. Lifting is part of my life style now, so I suppose results will come in time. Not going to obsess about it anymore.

I'm very much a late starter to this whole thing, but I am now the strongest and fittest I have ever been. Thanks much for putting things in perspective.

I think that's the key, and Giovonny hit the nail on the head when he said it took him 5 years to get to the look you're talking about. I have a similar thing, in that I look back on how I was training and eating a year ago, or 6 months ago, and I can see all the ways I could have improved it. If you get the bug for training, you'll always look at periods in your training history and wonder what you were doing things for, or why you didn't do xyz, it's just the way of it. I think 5 years is a good timeline once you actually start getting your shit together (you could easily spend a few years before this program hopping and fucking up generally) to actually get to a point where you can look and think, damn son, I'm getting the hang of this.

I guess all I'm trying to say is don't beat yourself up too much about not being happy with where you are, you most likely never will be. As long as you're lean (there is never an excuse to be a fatass unless you compete in a strength sport with no upper weight limit), and have clearly defined goals that you're working towards, you'll make progress every time you step in the gym. At the end of the day, consistency and effort are the only important things.

If I were to break it down into a few very simple principles though, regardless of your training objectives, it would be as follows:

1. Have a clearly defined goal, and a time frame for it. Personally I like to set 3 monthly performance based goals.

2. Have an idea on what level of leanness you want to be at an given point and adjust your calories accordingly.

3. Know why you are doing every single exercise in your training program - why is every movement, every set of it, every rep of it, getting you closer to your goal.

4. Within a given workout, know what is absolutely crucial before you step in the weight room. Sometimes everything goes to shit, and at that point you need to know what you can skip, and what is the work that you have to get done. This will focus your mind, and allow you to move on from a crappy day's training.

5. Point 4 also counts for diet too. With everything you put in your mouth, know how it is helping you get closer to your goals. If you are not cutting, and are training for performance, that may legitimately mean eating a chocolate bar for the calories it gives you.

6. Points 4 and 5 are particularly important when you are cutting, as the margin for error is less. You will have less energy, and sometimes be trying to do more (eg adding fasted cardio). You need to know that everything you are doing is getting you closer to your goal, because the period in between is going to suck.

7. Sometimes not fucking up is as important as getting the work in. For example, if you have to skip fasted cardio, resolve not to undo any work you've done by overeating on top of that. Any day where you genuinely could have screwed up, but didn't, is a day you made progress, even if you didn't achieve everything you set out to. If you can't get closer to your goals on a given day, don't get further away from them.

[nek]

(04-28-2015 05:34 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

7. Sometimes not fucking up is as important as getting the work in. For example, if you have to skip fasted cardio, resolve not to undo any work you've done by overeating on top of that. Any day where you genuinely could have screwed up, but didn't, is a day you made progress, even if you didn't achieve everything you set out to. If you can't get closer to your goals on a given day, don't get further away from them.

This is the gospel. As a bit of a perfectionist myself, I use to be very "all-or-nothing" with my diet. That is to say, I was either going to eat completely clean or not at all. If I made one mistake, like accidentally eating a cookie, my thought process would be "well, I already screwed up today, might as well keep going", after which I'd eating everything and anything I wanted. This was a huge hurdle to overcome for me mentally. Just because I ate one cookie didn't mean I was a complete failure. Had I kept trying to eat clean after that one cookie, it would still have been an overall day of good dieting. It's like the old saying goes, "perfect is the enemy of good".

[Legendver2]

So I recently going on a cut via caloric deficit after making a decent amount of strength gains. Since I work during the day, i limited my eating window from 2-10, where I can take lunch at 2, workout after work, and eat a meal after the workout to replenish, so essentially I'm skipping breakfast, and lowered carb intake from rice. The first week was ok, then after that I started to feel weaker in my lifts and have a tough time maintaining the strength gains. The week after that, during a press, I pulled a neck muscle, maybe due to bad form or whatever, so I was sidelined for about 3 weeks while still maintaining this diet. As I'm going back to the gym this past week, most of my strength gains are pretty much gone, I feel lethargic going to the gym now, and have a tough time getting my lifts in as I go heavier on the weights. Any suggestions and advice to get out of this slump?

[the chef]

^ sounds like you need a refeed/cheat day. It should be expected that your lifts are going to take a dip while cutting, but have a cheat day on the weekend and see how you feel after.

[Aliblahba]

Just weighed in again at Complete Nutrition. In ~ 6 weeks I've dropped 10 lbs of fat, gained 5 in muscle, and definitely look better. I do have a question. Doctors say you shouldn't lose more than 4 lbs of fat per months. But what if you are dropping more than that but are gaining muscle to replace the weight loss?

I'm still not consistent in the gym, but had told that punk ass dude in Complete Nutrition I still had a reserve of old man strength left, which is why the quick gain in muscle.

[civpro]

(05-01-2015 11:48 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

In ~ 6 weeks I've dropped 10 lbs of fat, gained 5 in muscle

[Enigma]

(03-23-2015 10:37 AM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

Enigma,

I'm not sure a heavily juiced professional fighter and genetic specimen is really an appropriate model for a normal man.

The fact remains that excessively low body-fat levels are not optimal for cognitive and sexual performance.

Your comment was that there is "absolutely no reason" for "any guy" to go below 12% body fat.

If you want to say the "average" guy, okay. I would still probably disagree, but that's a much more reasonable statement.

(03-23-2015 06:42 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

Nascimento, yes we are talking about the same value.

As I noted in the brief post to Enigma above, it would be a mistake for most men to attempt to model their body, and its fat composition in particular, after a handful of super-elite athletes who are both exceptional physical specimens to begin with, and often enough are on steroids, as well as on a rigorous regimen of supplements designed to optimize their performance in all sorts of ways and compensate for possible deficiencies.

Pretty much any body that men strive for is going to be below 12% body fat.

You're talking about these "deficiencies", yet there's a reason that a large percentage of guys go below well below 12% to compete.

If the best boxers, MMA fighters, NFL players, etc. (sports that are extremely physical and taxing on the body) are below 12%, what you're saying just comes off as broscience.

I'm not saying that in a derogatory manner, but you're essentially saying all athletes and trainers are wrong and I'm right.

The pro guys may be on juice, but you see similar physiques all the way down in high school. Lower body fat is a distinct advantage for many athletes, hence the reason they all strive to cut it. It's also a distinct aesthetic advantage, which is why many models, bodybuilders, etc. cut it.

Also, a lot of manosphere guys are on juice, including Victor Pride, Mike Cernovich, etc. Most manosphere guys take supplements.

Quote:

If a normal -- however strong and relatively athletic -- guy attempts to reproduce that sort of physique by lowering his body fat content to those levels, it is very likely to cause more harm than good. And there is just no reason to do it. A guy with a body fat content of 12% can be perfectly muscular, strong, and attractive in every way and can maintain that level without an artificially restricted diet that deprives him of the many health benefits -- not to mention the pleasures -- of consuming plenty of high quality fats.

Restrictive diet? I literally DRINK coconut oil, coconut milk, olive oil, and eggs almost every day and am able to cut fat. Simply consuming fat does not make your body accumulate fat.

Obviously, you have to get more serious about your diet as you get older, but there are plenty of guys that manage just fine. It's a tradeoff... do you want to be at your athletic peak and have women go nuts when you take off your shirt? Or do you want to eat ice cream every night and settle with an okay physique?

If you're the latter, cool. But I'm again going back to your comment stating that no guy needs to be below 12%, which is simply not accurate.

[Aliblahba]

(05-02-2015 12:41 AM)civpro Wrote:  

(05-01-2015 11:48 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

In ~ 6 weeks I've dropped 10 lbs of fat, gained 5 in muscle

Your contributions on this forum are duly noted. We couldn't be here without you.

[Moma]

(05-01-2015 11:48 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

I'm still not consistent in the gym, but had told that punk ass dude in Complete Nutrition I still had a reserve of old man strength left, which is why the quick gain in muscle.

Ali, you are a young buck, what does this old man strength business you talk about refer to?

[Aliblahba]

I'm referring to real world strength. The movements and weights are the most complex and never the same each time. The gym will dumb you down and most exercises are useless for day to day living. Because of this your body won't take to it in muscle, like it will lifting as real men should.


   



I've broke these type of trucks down with nothing but hand tools. For years. And because of the risk of injury, the mind is working just as hard as the body. Those lug nuts need ~ 700 fpt on each. Good luck on not throwing your back out. I never did.


   


Muscle memory is real. This is why the gym is so easy for me to see such quick gains. But I fucking hate every minute in there.

Gym culture

   


My culture


   

Train like you live. And you should live like every moment is your last.

[RexImperator]

Interestingly, I've now heard two people refer to "old man strength" in the past week and both are Marines.

Anyway, it's based on truth since CNS strength peaks in your 40's.

[Saweeep]

(05-02-2015 01:02 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

Interestingly, I've now heard two people refer to "old man strength" in the past week and both are Marines.

Anyway, it's based on truth since CNS strength peaks in your 40's.

I'll never forget the shock, as a highly talented 18 year old rugby player, playing my first game against a men's team; having guys in their mid-late 30s+ shrugging off us gym rat teens like we were flies.

It's also the reason I think why you rarely see young (teenage, early 20s) troublemakers pick fights with older, even out of shape men...we unconsciously recognise sheer strength and the capacity it has to hurt us

[Menace]

Not everyone can be a Marine, Ali. But we are all glad you're on our side.

[Aliblahba]

The Marines taught me how to kill, not be strong. Relentless fighting/wrestling, throwing furniture, ect. on weekends is where it started. The real old man strength really hit when I picked up a wrench for years.

My advice to the young ones on here, to develop it, is to train in functional strength.

Ropes
Sledgehammers
Tractor tires
Log training
Grain sacks

You can set all this up in a backyard and save $ on gym memberships.

It goes beyond strength. You learn better balance and footing. Today I had to wrench off a 200 lb piece of iron. There was no good place to stand, and once loose shifted itself jammed. I spent 10 minutes wrestling it in multiple positions. Finally got it out and down to the ground. I can relate all those movements to a street fight. There isn't one gym exercise I can think of where you can do the same. A key to success is efficiency. If you're going to workout, do routines that will benefit other aspects of life.

[N°6]

I thought that this thread would be ideal to post my query.

I've been going to the gym very often for the past 7 weeks having stopped going for three years following a move to another city.

I decided to cut first with high rep routines, partly to get rid of belly and waist fat and partly do get the smaller muscles used to lifting again. During this time I'm on high protein shakes and some meal replacement shakes. I can easily consume 180g of protein per day.

A body fat % calculation through the Internet (which included the lower ab measurement) came back as 18%. A machine at the gym which used my fingers for the reading came back as 13.4%. Releasing that neither will be accurate I decided to assume 16% as my BF%. I get the feeling that the variance is due to lower ab fat.

Should I now move to a high weight low rep programme?

Is it possible for me to be 'jacked'?

Other stats:

6'2" tall
Weight 188lbs
BMI 24.2

[H1N1]

(12-21-2015 08:24 AM)N°6 Wrote:  

Should I now move to a high weight low rep programme?

Is it possible for me to be 'jacked'?

Other stats:

6'2" tall
Weight 188lbs
BMI 24.2

What's your actual longer term goal/what are you training for?

What does jacked mean to you? There's another thread on the front page of this sub-forum where we've all tried, with limited success, to say what jacked actually means, and no clear definition has come about. So what does it mean to you?

[cascadecombo]

Quote:

I'll never forget the shock, as a highly talented 18 year old rugby player, playing my first game against a men's team; having guys in their mid-late 30s+ shrugging off us gym rat teens like we were flies.

It's also the reason I think why you rarely see young (teenage, early 20s) troublemakers pick fights with older, even out of shape men...we unconsciously recognise sheer strength and the capacity it has to hurt us 

With the full understanding that this question may make me out to seem like an idiot. After reading the stuff about old man strength and considering for a second other sources of unexplained power.

Where does retard strength come from?

[RexImperator]

Quote:

6'2" tall
Weight 188lbs
BMI 24.2

What are your lifting stats? 190 @ 6'2" means you have room to grow if you want to.