[Akula]

Man, can't the Western press get off the "Ukraine wants democracy and to get closer to the EU" theme? That's the only line they peddle and I'd argue it's only 1/3 of the story at best (even if the EU trade agreement was a catalyst of sorts). I'm sick of seeing their lame coverage and analysis (or lack thereof) and how they say the same sh*t every day.

Pretty scary that CNN, the BBC, Fox News etc. all seem to have zero insights into the country. It strikes me as very odd that the forum seems to know more about what's going on over there than a bunch of (supposed) professional journalists. I think I've learned more about the situation from this thread and my various internet conversations with the Ukraine ladies I"m talking to + word of mouth than from any of the mainstream media outlets. WTF?

Also, it doesn't take much 'analysis' from the supposed journalists to figure out that the EU pretty much gave Ukraine a raw deal and not a lot of money, whereas Russia was like "ok here's $15b". It's really not too hard to figure out that money talks given how easily all the Western powers cozy up to XYZ dictator or corrupt, kleptocratic Islamic oil state. Or that the Western half of the country is pissed due to the language/Russian issues they have, or that a lot of the rioting is probably 'piling on' as much as it is making a statement.

Finally, the HUGE elephant in the room that very few seem to be talking about is the fact that the d@mn oligarchs pretty much de facto run the country. Nobody in the mainstream press is talking about that angle from what I've seen. Follow the money people it's not that hard. The corrupt oligarchs have ZERO incentive to 'open up the kimono' and disclose more of their and the country's doings that's for sure. They are fighting hard to keep the status quo given how much control they have and how much money they take out every year - why mess up the gravy train? More EU regulations, financial, social or otherwise, is definitely not what they want and would cramp their style. I guess at this point the situation is pretty out of hand bc the 'government' didn't handle it right, but I'm sure the financial powers that be are pretty circumspect re getting closer to the EU and "Western Standards" and they will increasingly have a lot more to say about it. Just my guess.

[rastignac]

(02-01-2014 12:22 PM)michelin Wrote:  

this is bad news for Bang Ukraine. I bought the book and now will have to wait another couple years to visit the place?

Honestly , I don't see myself daygaming these days on Independence Square...

Everyone I have spoken to says things are completely normal with the exception of the grivna becoming less valuable and some prices going up. You can easily avoid the violence even now, even when in Kiev.

If Yanukovich declares martial law things could get strained for Americans. My understanding is that there could be increased border control.

One could use a strategy that could turn these events into a boon for a man on the street. Lots of opportunities to connect with people with such dramatic events.

[rastignac]

(02-01-2014 02:25 PM)Akula Wrote:  

Man, can't the Western press get off the "Ukraine wants democracy and to get closer to the EU" theme? That's the only line they peddle and I'd argue it's only 1/3 of the story at best (even if the EU trade agreement was a catalyst of sorts). I'm sick of seeing their lame coverage and analysis (or lack thereof) and how they say the same sh*t every day.

Pretty scary that CNN, the BBC, Fox News etc. all seem to have zero insights into the country. It strikes me as very odd that the forum seems to know more about what's going on over there than a bunch of (supposed) professional journalists. I think I've learned more about the situation from this thread and my various internet conversations with the Ukraine ladies I"m talking to + word of mouth than from any of the mainstream media outlets. WTF?

Also, it doesn't take much 'analysis' from the supposed journalists to figure out that the EU pretty much gave Ukraine a raw deal and not a lot of money, whereas Russia was like "ok here's $15b". It's really not too hard to figure out that money talks given how easily all the Western powers cozy up to XYZ dictator or corrupt, kleptocratic Islamic oil state. Or that the Western half of the country is pissed due to the language/Russian issues they have, or that a lot of the rioting is probably 'piling on' as much as it is making a statement.

Finally, the HUGE elephant in the room that very few seem to be talking about is the fact that the d@mn oligarchs pretty much de facto run the country. Nobody in the mainstream press is talking about that angle from what I've seen. Follow the money people it's not that hard. The corrupt oligarchs have ZERO incentive to 'open up the kimono' and disclose more of their and the country's doings that's for sure. They are fighting hard to keep the status quo given how much control they have and how much money they take out every year - why mess up the gravy train? More EU regulations, financial, social or otherwise, is definitely not what they want and would cramp their style. I guess at this point the situation is pretty out of hand bc the 'government' didn't handle it right, but I'm sure the financial powers that be are pretty circumspect re getting closer to the EU and "Western Standards" and they will increasingly have a lot more to say about it. Just my guess.

The oligarchs are interesting. Sure they financed Yanukovich but even Akmetov (the man behind Yanukovich) sent strong signals to Yanu to not crack down. They will stop supporting him if their fortunes are at risk.

From his company's site: “It is only by peaceful action that the political crisis can be resolved. … Any use of force and weapons is unacceptable,” he said in a notice put on his company’s website. “Business cannot keep silent when people are killed, a real danger of breakup of the country emerges, when a political crisis can lead to a deep economic recession and thus inevitably result in lower standards of living.”

I am pretty sure that this intervention is what stopped Yanukovich from escalating violence about a week ago. This is not a relationship of complete love. Yanukovich seemed to be trying to pull a Putin and take out the oligarchs and consolidate wealth in his family and trusted circle. (My hunch is that if he had cracked down, he would no longer be in power as it would have failed and turned against him, but a lot of people would be dead.)

I think a bunch of forces are power brokering now behind the scenes, almost Soviet style and Yanukovich went on sick leave, like a good outgoing Party Secretary. The people I think are waiting out the cold, but my hunch is that they are like a tightly would spring, ready to act.

This article has some insights and thoughts about what might happen.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/worl...e16647282/

Will the brokered solution be palatable to the protestors, to the people?

Yes western "journalists" are lost, lost, lost. Most are fresh out of college and runners being paid per article. I would argue some - the western regional Moscow-based correspondents - are colored by a Moscow lens. They do not understand Ukraine or what is going on.

[jimukr104]

(02-01-2014 02:25 PM)Akula Wrote:  

Man, can't the Western press get off the "Ukraine wants democracy and to get closer to the EU" theme? That's the only line they peddle and I'd argue it's only 1/3 of the story at best (even if the EU trade agreement was a catalyst of sorts). I'm sick of seeing their lame coverage and analysis (or lack thereof) and how they say the same sh*t every day.

Pretty scary that CNN, the BBC, Fox News etc. all seem to have zero insights into the country. It strikes me as very odd that the forum seems to know more about what's going on over there than a bunch of (supposed) professional journalists. I think I've learned more about the situation from this thread and my various internet conversations with the Ukraine ladies I"m talking to + word of mouth than from any of the mainstream media outlets. WTF?

Also, it doesn't take much 'analysis' from the supposed journalists to figure out that the EU pretty much gave Ukraine a raw deal and not a lot of money, whereas Russia was like "ok here's $15b". It's really not too hard to figure out that money talks given how easily all the Western powers cozy up to XYZ dictator or corrupt, kleptocratic Islamic oil state. Or that the Western half of the country is pissed due to the language/Russian issues they have, or that a lot of the rioting is probably 'piling on' as much as it is making a statement.

Finally, the HUGE elephant in the room that very few seem to be talking about is the fact that the d@mn oligarchs pretty much de facto run the country. Nobody in the mainstream press is talking about that angle from what I've seen. Follow the money people it's not that hard. The corrupt oligarchs have ZERO incentive to 'open up the kimono' and disclose more of their and the country's doings that's for sure. They are fighting hard to keep the status quo given how much control they have and how much money they take out every year - why mess up the gravy train? More EU regulations, financial, social or otherwise, is definitely not what they want and would cramp their style. I guess at this point the situation is pretty out of hand bc the 'government' didn't handle it right, but I'm sure the financial powers that be are pretty circumspect re getting closer to the EU and "Western Standards" and they will increasingly have a lot more to say about it. Just my guess.

Very insightful..its always about money. That's why EU wants Ukraine to join its ponzi scheme. Sorry guys..that's what it kind of is lol.

The Oligarchs I can't figure out to be honest...I am pretty sure they might be behind the reported kidnappings, if it is true. Of course the opposition could be lying..remember we are dealing with Neo Nazi extremists. That's another thing the Western press avoids.... the opposition is anti Jew and anti gay, feminism and all those EU values they are fighting for.
My wife even said she is shocked that thousands of hired hit man haven't come and cleared out the protesters. The oligarchs can support armies of hit man,thugs, etc.Unless they are using this time to send most of their money out of the country?
In any case Western Ukrainians seem to think that a trade agreement will let them work in EU...that's what they want. The high paying jobs in the East certainly will NOT be available to them after this movement. Funny considering Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians are even limited in leaving to find work and they are 100% EU members.

[conservative]

Based on experience from the Tunisian revolution (3 years ago), this can only get worst and it's probably external agents that running things here.

Regarding the Ukraine police being soft vs. police in the USA is hard. Well, Ukraine now is in a hard situation and history have shown that shooting these "protesters" will result in world wide condemnations and calls to stop the "gov. violence". Unluckily, they need to deal with it.

[swadeshi]

(02-01-2014 04:10 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

(02-01-2014 02:25 PM)Akula Wrote:  

Man, can't the Western press get off the "Ukraine wants democracy and to get closer to the EU" theme? That's the only line they peddle and I'd argue it's only 1/3 of the story at best (even if the EU trade agreement was a catalyst of sorts). I'm sick of seeing their lame coverage and analysis (or lack thereof) and how they say the same sh*t every day.

Pretty scary that CNN, the BBC, Fox News etc. all seem to have zero insights into the country. It strikes me as very odd that the forum seems to know more about what's going on over there than a bunch of (supposed) professional journalists. I think I've learned more about the situation from this thread and my various internet conversations with the Ukraine ladies I"m talking to + word of mouth than from any of the mainstream media outlets. WTF?

Also, it doesn't take much 'analysis' from the supposed journalists to figure out that the EU pretty much gave Ukraine a raw deal and not a lot of money, whereas Russia was like "ok here's $15b". It's really not too hard to figure out that money talks given how easily all the Western powers cozy up to XYZ dictator or corrupt, kleptocratic Islamic oil state. Or that the Western half of the country is pissed due to the language/Russian issues they have, or that a lot of the rioting is probably 'piling on' as much as it is making a statement.

Finally, the HUGE elephant in the room that very few seem to be talking about is the fact that the d@mn oligarchs pretty much de facto run the country. Nobody in the mainstream press is talking about that angle from what I've seen. Follow the money people it's not that hard. The corrupt oligarchs have ZERO incentive to 'open up the kimono' and disclose more of their and the country's doings that's for sure. They are fighting hard to keep the status quo given how much control they have and how much money they take out every year - why mess up the gravy train? More EU regulations, financial, social or otherwise, is definitely not what they want and would cramp their style. I guess at this point the situation is pretty out of hand bc the 'government' didn't handle it right, but I'm sure the financial powers that be are pretty circumspect re getting closer to the EU and "Western Standards" and they will increasingly have a lot more to say about it. Just my guess.

Very insightful..its always about money. That's why EU wants Ukraine to join its ponzi scheme. Sorry guys..that's what it kind of is lol.

The Oligarchs I can't figure out to be honest...I am pretty sure they might be behind the reported kidnappings, if it is true. Of course the opposition could be lying..remember we are dealing with Neo Nazi extremists. That's another thing the Western press avoids.... the opposition is anti Jew and anti gay, feminism and all those EU values they are fighting for.
My wife even said she is shocked that thousands of hired hit man haven't come and cleared out the protesters. The oligarchs can support armies of hit man,thugs, etc.Unless they are using this time to send most of their money out of the country?
In any case Western Ukrainians seem to think that a trade agreement will let them work in EU...that's what they want. The high paying jobs in the East certainly will NOT be available to them after this movement. Funny considering Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians are even limited in leaving to find work and they are 100% EU members.

Get your facts straight, brother. as a matter of fact as a Bulgarian citizen myself I'd like to make it clear for everyone (coz I notice a lot of misinformed opinions when it comes to the EU). As of 1 January 2014 Bulgarians and Romanians have the full right to seek work freely in any EU member country if they so desire, and for certain countries (e.g. Spain, Sweden) we have had that right for 6 years now. Hell Bulgaria could've applied to accept the Euro as its currency 2 years ago but the government decided against it because if the shaky debt crisis situation in the rest of Europe. On the other hand I agree that the media has misrepresented the EU association trade agreement as a some sort of EU accession agreement which couldn't be further from the truth. And I think a lot of people down on the streets Ukraine are ignorant about that too and they wrongly think that they were about to enter the EU and that's why they are so angry. In reality it would take them minimum 20 years to become EU members.

[rastignac]

(02-01-2014 04:10 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

(02-01-2014 02:25 PM)Akula Wrote:  

Man, can't the Western press get off the "Ukraine wants democracy and to get closer to the EU" theme? That's the only line they peddle and I'd argue it's only 1/3 of the story at best (even if the EU trade agreement was a catalyst of sorts). I'm sick of seeing their lame coverage and analysis (or lack thereof) and how they say the same sh*t every day.

Pretty scary that CNN, the BBC, Fox News etc. all seem to have zero insights into the country. It strikes me as very odd that the forum seems to know more about what's going on over there than a bunch of (supposed) professional journalists. I think I've learned more about the situation from this thread and my various internet conversations with the Ukraine ladies I"m talking to + word of mouth than from any of the mainstream media outlets. WTF?

Also, it doesn't take much 'analysis' from the supposed journalists to figure out that the EU pretty much gave Ukraine a raw deal and not a lot of money, whereas Russia was like "ok here's $15b". It's really not too hard to figure out that money talks given how easily all the Western powers cozy up to XYZ dictator or corrupt, kleptocratic Islamic oil state. Or that the Western half of the country is pissed due to the language/Russian issues they have, or that a lot of the rioting is probably 'piling on' as much as it is making a statement.

Finally, the HUGE elephant in the room that very few seem to be talking about is the fact that the d@mn oligarchs pretty much de facto run the country. Nobody in the mainstream press is talking about that angle from what I've seen. Follow the money people it's not that hard. The corrupt oligarchs have ZERO incentive to 'open up the kimono' and disclose more of their and the country's doings that's for sure. They are fighting hard to keep the status quo given how much control they have and how much money they take out every year - why mess up the gravy train? More EU regulations, financial, social or otherwise, is definitely not what they want and would cramp their style. I guess at this point the situation is pretty out of hand bc the 'government' didn't handle it right, but I'm sure the financial powers that be are pretty circumspect re getting closer to the EU and "Western Standards" and they will increasingly have a lot more to say about it. Just my guess.

Very insightful..its always about money. That's why EU wants Ukraine to join its ponzi scheme. Sorry guys..that's what it kind of is lol.

The Oligarchs I can't figure out to be honest...I am pretty sure they might be behind the reported kidnappings, if it is true. Of course the opposition could be lying..remember we are dealing with Neo Nazi extremists. That's another thing the Western press avoids.... the opposition is anti Jew and anti gay, feminism and all those EU values they are fighting for.
My wife even said she is shocked that thousands of hired hit man haven't come and cleared out the protesters. The oligarchs can support armies of hit man,thugs, etc.Unless they are using this time to send most of their money out of the country?
In any case Western Ukrainians seem to think that a trade agreement will let them work in EU...that's what they want. The high paying jobs in the East certainly will NOT be available to them after this movement. Funny considering Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians are even limited in leaving to find work and they are 100% EU members.

Yeah good reason to be cynical about all the EU business that started this and people's expectations, but hard for me to imagine the "oligarchs" are behind the kidnappings now. Would they kidnap and torture? sure, but I am not sure it is in their interests. More like Russian mercenaries and or special services people brought in by Yankovich, based on what I see reported.

The thugs (gopnik Ukrainian guys) busting up the local Silpo also are unlikely paid for by the oligarchs (of course the oligarchs do not all agree with each other). I believe people like Akmetov are generally force for moderation now and even withdrew support for Yanukovich this month. They will try to get somebody else into power, someone who will even be acceptable to the street in Maidan.

The oligarchs had advantages with the EU trade deal, as I understand it.

Again, I don't think Maidan gives a shit about the EU agreement since the protest laws went into effect. No one is talking about it much (opposition, Maidan propagandists). Maidan has since been talking about Yanukovich, corruption and loss of freedoms.

[rastignac]

Just read slavic Roosh's twitter posts on Ukraine. Damn funny and astute.

[jimukr104]

^^^EU wants Ukraine to let the currency float...that will hurt the Oligarchs because they have been converting Hrv to dollars(other strong currencies ) at the fixed rate. They will lose billions if the currency depreciates which it is bound to do...albeit more slowly if they get Russian loan.
Much of thier industries that they control will NOT be able to compete with EU as well.
I don't really think the govt or Russian gov't is involved in torture of protesters...doing so weakens the gov't. That's part of the reason speculation exists with the gov't that the opposition did it.
However, it wouldn't surprise me if some angry cop went medieval because his "brother in blue" got hit with a Molotov cocktail!
Funny...the Western Ukrainians protesters fit the gopnik image more than anyone else!
The Oligarchs already have a candidate...Poshenka I think??
Yes they are still angry those protest laws that I heard have been taken away! We all know those laws are bad and a Democratic country would NEVER support it.
So tell me..why are most of those protest laws written in the NYPD disorder control unit patrol orders?
WE have been threatened by an attack of executive orders from Obama! Democracy my ASS!

[jimukr104]

(02-01-2014 07:25 PM)swadeshi Wrote:  

(02-01-2014 04:10 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

(02-01-2014 02:25 PM)Akula Wrote:  

Man, can't the Western press get off the "Ukraine wants democracy and to get closer to the EU" theme? That's the only line they peddle and I'd argue it's only 1/3 of the story at best (even if the EU trade agreement was a catalyst of sorts). I'm sick of seeing their lame coverage and analysis (or lack thereof) and how they say the same sh*t every day.

Pretty scary that CNN, the BBC, Fox News etc. all seem to have zero insights into the country. It strikes me as very odd that the forum seems to know more about what's going on over there than a bunch of (supposed) professional journalists. I think I've learned more about the situation from this thread and my various internet conversations with the Ukraine ladies I"m talking to + word of mouth than from any of the mainstream media outlets. WTF?

Also, it doesn't take much 'analysis' from the supposed journalists to figure out that the EU pretty much gave Ukraine a raw deal and not a lot of money, whereas Russia was like "ok here's $15b". It's really not too hard to figure out that money talks given how easily all the Western powers cozy up to XYZ dictator or corrupt, kleptocratic Islamic oil state. Or that the Western half of the country is pissed due to the language/Russian issues they have, or that a lot of the rioting is probably 'piling on' as much as it is making a statement.

Finally, the HUGE elephant in the room that very few seem to be talking about is the fact that the d@mn oligarchs pretty much de facto run the country. Nobody in the mainstream press is talking about that angle from what I've seen. Follow the money people it's not that hard. The corrupt oligarchs have ZERO incentive to 'open up the kimono' and disclose more of their and the country's doings that's for sure. They are fighting hard to keep the status quo given how much control they have and how much money they take out every year - why mess up the gravy train? More EU regulations, financial, social or otherwise, is definitely not what they want and would cramp their style. I guess at this point the situation is pretty out of hand bc the 'government' didn't handle it right, but I'm sure the financial powers that be are pretty circumspect re getting closer to the EU and "Western Standards" and they will increasingly have a lot more to say about it. Just my guess.

Very insightful..its always about money. That's why EU wants Ukraine to join its ponzi scheme. Sorry guys..that's what it kind of is lol.

The Oligarchs I can't figure out to be honest...I am pretty sure they might be behind the reported kidnappings, if it is true. Of course the opposition could be lying..remember we are dealing with Neo Nazi extremists. That's another thing the Western press avoids.... the opposition is anti Jew and anti gay, feminism and all those EU values they are fighting for.
My wife even said she is shocked that thousands of hired hit man haven't come and cleared out the protesters. The oligarchs can support armies of hit man,thugs, etc.Unless they are using this time to send most of their money out of the country?
In any case Western Ukrainians seem to think that a trade agreement will let them work in EU...that's what they want. The high paying jobs in the East certainly will NOT be available to them after this movement. Funny considering Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians are even limited in leaving to find work and they are 100% EU members.

Get your facts straight, brother. as a matter of fact as a Bulgarian citizen myself I'd like to make it clear for everyone (coz I notice a lot of misinformed opinions when it comes to the EU). As of 1 January 2014 Bulgarians and Romanians have the full right to seek work freely in any EU member country if they so desire, and for certain countries (e.g. Spain, Sweden) we have had that right for 6 years now. Hell Bulgaria could've applied to accept the Euro as its currency 2 years ago but the government decided against it because if the shaky debt crisis situation in the rest of Europe. On the other hand I agree that the media has misrepresented the EU association trade agreement as a some sort of EU accession agreement which couldn't be further from the truth. And I think a lot of people down on the streets Ukraine are ignorant about that too and they wrongly think that they were about to enter the EU and that's why they are so angry. In reality it would take them minimum 20 years to become EU members.

Sue me..off by 1 month lol.
Yes , they must have thought association=accession.
I also think that Ukraine would have to :
1.eject the Russian black fleet first
2. Tranneister situation with Moldova has to get resolved. Almost every traniester(moldovan) citizen has relatives in Ukraine and they freely travel back and forth as it is(i have family there)

Do you see many Bulgarians flocking to Germany looking for work?Imagine what would happen if ALL Mexicans could come to USA!

[rastignac]

(02-01-2014 08:29 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

^^^EU wants Ukraine to let the currency float...that will hurt the Oligarchs because they have been converting Hrv to dollars(other strong currencies ) at the fixed rate. They will lose billions if the currency depreciates which it is bound to do...albeit more slowly if they get Russian loan.
Much of thier industries that they control will NOT be able to compete with EU as well.
I don't really think the govt or Russian gov't is involved in torture of protesters...doing so weakens the gov't. That's part of the reason speculation exists with the gov't that the opposition did it.
However, it wouldn't surprise me if some angry cop went medieval because his "brother in blue" got hit with a Molotov cocktail!
Funny...the Western Ukrainians protesters fit the gopnik image more than anyone else!
The Oligarchs already have a candidate...Poshenka I think??
Yes they are still angry those protest laws that I heard have been taken away! We all know those laws are bad and a Democratic country would NEVER support it.
So tell me..why are most of those protest laws written in the NYPD disorder control unit patrol orders?
WE have been threatened by an attack of executive orders from Obama! Democracy my ASS!

Poshenka? Poroshenko, right? Petro Poroshenko is everywhere now and even spoke at Independence Square today as the 4th opposition leader. People in the press are talking about him becoming PM. Hunch is the deal is done behind closed doors. He's got that jowly USSR look but I like his chocolates. He seems to have a history of working with and or against all factions in Ukraine.

http://www.forbes.com/profile/petro-poroshenko/

6th richest man in Ukraine. 931st in the world.

https://twitter.com/MaximEristavi/status...36/photo/1

Interview in English with substance on BBC from last November.

Recent interview

http://charter97.org/en/news/2013/12/3/81026/

Interpret this picture of Kerry and Poroshenko with the two other opposition leaders on the sideline.

http://www.voanews.com/content/kerry-mee...42502.html

[swadeshi]

(02-01-2014 08:38 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

(02-01-2014 07:25 PM)swadeshi Wrote:  

(02-01-2014 04:10 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

(02-01-2014 02:25 PM)Akula Wrote:  

Man, can't the Western press get off the "Ukraine wants democracy and to get closer to the EU" theme? That's the only line they peddle and I'd argue it's only 1/3 of the story at best (even if the EU trade agreement was a catalyst of sorts). I'm sick of seeing their lame coverage and analysis (or lack thereof) and how they say the same sh*t every day.

Pretty scary that CNN, the BBC, Fox News etc. all seem to have zero insights into the country. It strikes me as very odd that the forum seems to know more about what's going on over there than a bunch of (supposed) professional journalists. I think I've learned more about the situation from this thread and my various internet conversations with the Ukraine ladies I"m talking to + word of mouth than from any of the mainstream media outlets. WTF?

Also, it doesn't take much 'analysis' from the supposed journalists to figure out that the EU pretty much gave Ukraine a raw deal and not a lot of money, whereas Russia was like "ok here's $15b". It's really not too hard to figure out that money talks given how easily all the Western powers cozy up to XYZ dictator or corrupt, kleptocratic Islamic oil state. Or that the Western half of the country is pissed due to the language/Russian issues they have, or that a lot of the rioting is probably 'piling on' as much as it is making a statement.

Finally, the HUGE elephant in the room that very few seem to be talking about is the fact that the d@mn oligarchs pretty much de facto run the country. Nobody in the mainstream press is talking about that angle from what I've seen. Follow the money people it's not that hard. The corrupt oligarchs have ZERO incentive to 'open up the kimono' and disclose more of their and the country's doings that's for sure. They are fighting hard to keep the status quo given how much control they have and how much money they take out every year - why mess up the gravy train? More EU regulations, financial, social or otherwise, is definitely not what they want and would cramp their style. I guess at this point the situation is pretty out of hand bc the 'government' didn't handle it right, but I'm sure the financial powers that be are pretty circumspect re getting closer to the EU and "Western Standards" and they will increasingly have a lot more to say about it. Just my guess.

Very insightful..its always about money. That's why EU wants Ukraine to join its ponzi scheme. Sorry guys..that's what it kind of is lol.

The Oligarchs I can't figure out to be honest...I am pretty sure they might be behind the reported kidnappings, if it is true. Of course the opposition could be lying..remember we are dealing with Neo Nazi extremists. That's another thing the Western press avoids.... the opposition is anti Jew and anti gay, feminism and all those EU values they are fighting for.
My wife even said she is shocked that thousands of hired hit man haven't come and cleared out the protesters. The oligarchs can support armies of hit man,thugs, etc.Unless they are using this time to send most of their money out of the country?
In any case Western Ukrainians seem to think that a trade agreement will let them work in EU...that's what they want. The high paying jobs in the East certainly will NOT be available to them after this movement. Funny considering Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians are even limited in leaving to find work and they are 100% EU members.

Get your facts straight, brother. as a matter of fact as a Bulgarian citizen myself I'd like to make it clear for everyone (coz I notice a lot of misinformed opinions when it comes to the EU). As of 1 January 2014 Bulgarians and Romanians have the full right to seek work freely in any EU member country if they so desire, and for certain countries (e.g. Spain, Sweden) we have had that right for 6 years now. Hell Bulgaria could've applied to accept the Euro as its currency 2 years ago but the government decided against it because if the shaky debt crisis situation in the rest of Europe. On the other hand I agree that the media has misrepresented the EU association trade agreement as a some sort of EU accession agreement which couldn't be further from the truth. And I think a lot of people down on the streets Ukraine are ignorant about that too and they wrongly think that they were about to enter the EU and that's why they are so angry. In reality it would take them minimum 20 years to become EU members.

Sue me..off by 1 month lol.
Yes , they must have thought association=accession.
I also think that Ukraine would have to :
1.eject the Russian black fleet first
2. Tranneister situation with Moldova has to get resolved. Almost every traniester(moldovan) citizen has relatives in Ukraine and they freely travel back and forth as it is(i have family there)

Do you see many Bulgarians flocking to Germany looking for work?Imagine what would happen if ALL Mexicans could come to USA!

Ah yea, I almost forgot Sevastopol is practically a Russian city.The thing with Bulgaria is that the Bulgarians who have wanted to emigrate had done so already years ago (20% of Bulgarians have emigrated, me and my family one of them), as I said don't forget that we have been EU members for 7 years now and since 2004 no visa is needed to travel to Europe. So it wasn't like anything changed when the final restrictions from countries like UK and Germany fell a month ago, it just made it even easier to emigrate, but as I said the ones who had been determined to do it had done it much earlier, so there are no big immigrant waves of hordes rushing to Germany and UK at all. Also Bulgaria is actually quite a small country (7 million people) so can't really flood Germany, Mexico is like 110 million.

[jimukr104]

(02-02-2014 12:13 PM)swadeshi Wrote:  

(02-01-2014 08:38 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

(02-01-2014 07:25 PM)swadeshi Wrote:  

(02-01-2014 04:10 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

(02-01-2014 02:25 PM)Akula Wrote:  

Man, can't the Western press get off the "Ukraine wants democracy and to get closer to the EU" theme? That's the only line they peddle and I'd argue it's only 1/3 of the story at best (even if the EU trade agreement was a catalyst of sorts). I'm sick of seeing their lame coverage and analysis (or lack thereof) and how they say the same sh*t every day.

Pretty scary that CNN, the BBC, Fox News etc. all seem to have zero insights into the country. It strikes me as very odd that the forum seems to know more about what's going on over there than a bunch of (supposed) professional journalists. I think I've learned more about the situation from this thread and my various internet conversations with the Ukraine ladies I"m talking to + word of mouth than from any of the mainstream media outlets. WTF?

Also, it doesn't take much 'analysis' from the supposed journalists to figure out that the EU pretty much gave Ukraine a raw deal and not a lot of money, whereas Russia was like "ok here's $15b". It's really not too hard to figure out that money talks given how easily all the Western powers cozy up to XYZ dictator or corrupt, kleptocratic Islamic oil state. Or that the Western half of the country is pissed due to the language/Russian issues they have, or that a lot of the rioting is probably 'piling on' as much as it is making a statement.

Finally, the HUGE elephant in the room that very few seem to be talking about is the fact that the d@mn oligarchs pretty much de facto run the country. Nobody in the mainstream press is talking about that angle from what I've seen. Follow the money people it's not that hard. The corrupt oligarchs have ZERO incentive to 'open up the kimono' and disclose more of their and the country's doings that's for sure. They are fighting hard to keep the status quo given how much control they have and how much money they take out every year - why mess up the gravy train? More EU regulations, financial, social or otherwise, is definitely not what they want and would cramp their style. I guess at this point the situation is pretty out of hand bc the 'government' didn't handle it right, but I'm sure the financial powers that be are pretty circumspect re getting closer to the EU and "Western Standards" and they will increasingly have a lot more to say about it. Just my guess.

Very insightful..its always about money. That's why EU wants Ukraine to join its ponzi scheme. Sorry guys..that's what it kind of is lol.

The Oligarchs I can't figure out to be honest...I am pretty sure they might be behind the reported kidnappings, if it is true. Of course the opposition could be lying..remember we are dealing with Neo Nazi extremists. That's another thing the Western press avoids.... the opposition is anti Jew and anti gay, feminism and all those EU values they are fighting for.
My wife even said she is shocked that thousands of hired hit man haven't come and cleared out the protesters. The oligarchs can support armies of hit man,thugs, etc.Unless they are using this time to send most of their money out of the country?
In any case Western Ukrainians seem to think that a trade agreement will let them work in EU...that's what they want. The high paying jobs in the East certainly will NOT be available to them after this movement. Funny considering Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians are even limited in leaving to find work and they are 100% EU members.

Get your facts straight, brother. as a matter of fact as a Bulgarian citizen myself I'd like to make it clear for everyone (coz I notice a lot of misinformed opinions when it comes to the EU). As of 1 January 2014 Bulgarians and Romanians have the full right to seek work freely in any EU member country if they so desire, and for certain countries (e.g. Spain, Sweden) we have had that right for 6 years now. Hell Bulgaria could've applied to accept the Euro as its currency 2 years ago but the government decided against it because if the shaky debt crisis situation in the rest of Europe. On the other hand I agree that the media has misrepresented the EU association trade agreement as a some sort of EU accession agreement which couldn't be further from the truth. And I think a lot of people down on the streets Ukraine are ignorant about that too and they wrongly think that they were about to enter the EU and that's why they are so angry. In reality it would take them minimum 20 years to become EU members.

Sue me..off by 1 month lol.
Yes , they must have thought association=accession.
I also think that Ukraine would have to :
1.eject the Russian black fleet first
2. Tranneister situation with Moldova has to get resolved. Almost every traniester(moldovan) citizen has relatives in Ukraine and they freely travel back and forth as it is(i have family there)

Do you see many Bulgarians flocking to Germany looking for work?Imagine what would happen if ALL Mexicans could come to USA!

Ah yea, I almost forgot Sevastopol is practically a Russian city.The thing with Bulgaria is that the Bulgarians who have wanted to emigrate had done so already years ago (20% of Bulgarians have emigrated, me and my family one of them), as I said don't forget that we have been EU members for 7 years now and since 2004 no visa is needed to travel to Europe. So it wasn't like anything changed when the final restrictions from countries like UK and Germany fell a month ago, it just made it even easier to emigrate, but as I said the ones who had been determined to do it had done it much earlier, so there are no big immigrant waves of hordes rushing to Germany and UK at all. Also Bulgaria is actually quite a small country (7 million people) so can't really flood Germany, Mexico is like 110 million.

So does the EU want millions of Ukrainians flooding the market?
Interestingly it will be mostly males leaving so MORE gals stuck at home
I agree with you..don't think they are offering that. Especially with a double dip recession coming any day.I predict within the next 5 years.Actually my pops( financial genius) claims that min of 2 world wide recessions per decade is going to be the norm.
How does the Bulgarian gov't/ community feel that 20% left? I would think they might be regretting that..at one point anyway.

[jimukr104]

http://vremia.ua/rubrics/zakulisa/5321.php

Radical gangs and opposition have received about $ 20m a week for funding gunmen and supporting Maidan.

Starting the very first day of "Euromaidan" every head of gunmen gang has received cash rewards. $ 200 a gunmen a day and additionally $ 500, if the gang was above 10 gunmen. Coordinators got $ 2000 a day if that gang directly attacked the police.

The investigation established that funds were wired to the US embassy in Kiev via its diplomatic channel. The embassy sent that money to the center offices of "Svoboda" ("Свобода") and "Batkivshchyna" ("Батьківщина"). The was about $ 20m a week. This money was used for supporting "Euromaidan" (life support, bribes to government officials, policemen, mass media, propaganda expenses, and so on) and dailu payments to gunmen. Also leaders of oppositional forces and radical gangs received money directly to their personal bank accounts.

Evidences of all this was found by SBU (СБУ) that conducted a search in premises of the center office of "Batkivshchyna". They found and confiscated $ 17m in cash in Alexander Turchinov's (Александра Турчинова) office. They also found information on party's servers on distributing funds on supporting Euromaidan and payments to gunmen of "Pravyi sector" (Правый сектор) and other radical gangs.

It was also found that US officials guaranteed its help in urgent evacuation from Ukraine to leaders of radical right-wing groups and also providing shelter in any EU country by their choice and cash allowances iа the revolution would have failed. These guarantees have already been used by a leader of provocateurs group "Avtomaidan" ("Автомайдан") Sergey Koba (Сергей Коба). Ukrainian police is trying to find his location at the moment, said the source in SBU.

[rastignac]

(02-02-2014 06:39 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

http://vremia.ua/rubrics/zakulisa/5321.php

Radical gangs and opposition have received about $ 20m a week for funding gunmen and supporting Maidan.

Starting the very first day of "Euromaidan" every head of gunmen gang has received cash rewards. $ 200 a gunmen a day and additionally $ 500, if the gang was above 10 gunmen. Coordinators got $ 2000 a day if that gang directly attacked the police.

The investigation established that funds were wired to the US embassy in Kiev via its diplomatic channel. The embassy sent that money to the center offices of "Svoboda" ("Свобода") and "Batkivshchyna" ("Батьківщина"). The was about $ 20m a week. This money was used for supporting "Euromaidan" (life support, bribes to government officials, policemen, mass media, propaganda expenses, and so on) and dailu payments to gunmen. Also leaders of oppositional forces and radical gangs received money directly to their personal bank accounts.

Evidences of all this was found by SBU (СБУ) that conducted a search in premises of the center office of "Batkivshchyna". They found and confiscated $ 17m in cash in Alexander Turchinov's (Александра Турчинова) office. They also found information on party's servers on distributing funds on supporting Euromaidan and payments to gunmen of "Pravyi sector" (Правый сектор) and other radical gangs.

It was also found that US officials guaranteed its help in urgent evacuation from Ukraine to leaders of radical right-wing groups and also providing shelter in any EU country by their choice and cash allowances iа the revolution would have failed. These guarantees have already been used by a leader of provocateurs group "Avtomaidan" ("Автомайдан") Sergey Koba (Сергей Коба). Ukrainian police is trying to find his location at the moment, said the source in SBU.

If they had 20 million dollars a week, you think they could afford better outfits. Interesting allegations.

[jimukr104]

Kind of relevant :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387

[rishboy77]

I don't if this has been mentioned before, but I was reading a interesting article how sophisticated the spying on people and how Government can use the information with new technologies.
Recently cell phone users in a that attended a protest received a text message that they were taking part in unlawful action. The cell companies denied involvement as the Government is that powerful there.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/ja...-mass-riot

[Mekorig]

jimukr104, the SBU? Really? heck, if they want, they can make evidence that the opposition leaders are really martian invaders!

[jimukr104]

(02-05-2014 12:39 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  

jimukr104, the SBU? Really? heck, if they want, they can make evidence that the opposition leaders are really martian invaders!

No different than our FBI. But I KNOW my credit union in NYC donated over 50 million to their party.
Martians? if you go speak to Deb Auchary(Nomad forum btw)....he would probably concur that they look, act and seem like MARTIANS over in them parts lol.

Hers a good one ...http://world.time.com/2014/02/04/ukraine-dmitri-yarosh-kiev/.
Reminds me of Braveheart! I say we recruit him and his group in the war against feminism!

"And the secret of Molotov Cocktails has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Ukrainians, you must learn its discipline, for no one, no one in Ukraine can you trust, not Russians, not Vodka, Not EU observers ... This you can trust. [points to his Molotov Cocktail]"

[jimukr104]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26072281

[jimukr104]

heres the Pakistan English paper opinion...atleast 80% correct!

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/opinion/07-...er-picture
"On the contrary, the crisis in Ukraine has its basis not in questions of democracy but in the intense competition for markets following the Great Recession of 2008, and an imperial agenda to isolate and weaken Russia. "

[Smooth Operator]

Funny picture from the riots in Ukraine



WB

[Brosemite]

^^^ I like that depiction SO

[germanico]

Meanwhile, all the media cares about is Putin not hoisting the rainbow flag.

[jimukr104]

Now to mention something funny. The local Russian radio channels are covering the protest and they are a bit biased being journalists. Journalists ALWAYS support free speech(they hate Putin here also) and such so they are of course supporting the opposition(weird considering the community here is 75% FSU Jewish)
Anyway, whenever a speaker calls in to give their opinion 90% of the time they hang up because the callers are more pro gov't or more important anti opposition. They then say " that Putin most be paying them to call". My wife called in as a joke..they hanged up on her also. It seems they are Not supporting freedom of speech here. These are American citizens of Russian or Ukrainian origin.They can't be getting paid by Putin! lol. Most Immigrants here came from South or Eastern ukraine.
Another thing the nationalists are doing here is trying to get support by bringing up IMPORTANT Ukrainians who immigrated here.
They bought up Stallone because his grandma was from Odessa(you guys knew right?). They bought up Steven Spielberg who ancestry is also from Odessa. They even bought up Dustin Hoffman who's family was from Kiev. my wife is laughing because they are more likely really Russian speakers and most are jewish.. certainly Not supporters of Western Ukraine.