[Patriarch]

After two months of flip-flopping on which Chinese city I was going to move to, I've decided on Vietnam instead. I know several members of the forum have been to these cities, but what I'm curious about is the quality of medium to long-term life here, not short trips. I am moving by the end of February and already started light pipelining in HCMC, and the quality and response rate of interested girls is absolutely outstanding compared to Plenty of Whales and OKC here in the US.

To be brief, I plan on teaching English for the next 2-3 years in Asia while I work on my writing and networking.

[Beyond Borders]

Anti-foreigner sentiment is a lot higher in the north.

If pussy is a high priority, go for Saigon.

[WanderingSoul]

Only spent four days in Saigon, but I had a really good time.

[DirectDanger]

I liked HCMC better.

Would be interested in reading a break down of each city from someone who has spent a lot of time there. I think most guys always go for less than a week. Difficult to get a feel for a place in such a short time.

[RawGod]

(01-01-2014 03:26 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

Anti-foreigner sentiment is a lot higher in the north.

If pussy is a high priority, go for Saigon.

This makes sense for historical reasons. But does it really play out on the ground?

[Beyond Borders]

I spent about a month there. 3 weeks in Hanoi and a week on Cat Ba Island.

The food in Hanoi is amazing but the people are a little much. I was pretty broke and didn't go out much, and convincing a motorbike driver that I legitimately wanted to go to a local dance club was like pulling teeth. Without fail they would bring me way out into the city and I'd think I was getting somewhere and it'd just be another overpriced hooker bar or massage parlor. I did meet some local friends who wanted to take me out, but as I said, I was strapped for cash, and I didn't want to risk having the bill pawned on me (which happens sometimes when eating with locals in the region) when I couldn't afford it.

That's just for clubs though - you can find sit-down bia hoi bars and pubs everywhere.

One time while there I was drinking at a local bar that was in the Old Quarter but had no foreigners in that particular venue. I popped my ass on a stool and chilled out for a while, as I usually find if I stay long enough eventually someone will break the ice and I'll meet some local friends. Some guy started talking to me and said I should be careful sitting in there as an American and that someone who doesn't like us might pull out a gun and shoot me in the head. And he gestured with his hands as he said it.

Felt a bit like a threat (ya think? lol) but I just shrugged and looked him dead in the eye and said well if that's what's going to happen then it will happen. I'm not worried about it.

That chilled him out a bit and he became friendlier. He was blazing a joint and said he made his living growing weed on his family's property in the mountains. I was surprised he was so upfront about it and asked him why, and he just said if the cops come we will shoot them. lol Probably bravado but I got a sense of some real lawless cats up that direction.

At another point I was eating in a small streetside restaurant and having a good time. Even ordered a second beer and had it sent to the chef. But they charged me about double for my bill. I protested at first and would usually argue my way out of such an aggressive con, but I quickly was given the sense that every guy working in the place was about to jump me. So I angrily handed him the cash and said I'm never fucking coming here again (which, let's face it, he could have given less of a shit about).

Another night I was drunk and lost - couldn't find my hotel. I showed this woman a business card I had for the hotel and she said she knew it. But as we're driving off into the city it felt like the wrong direction and I got a sense something was awry. I asked her to stop and she wouldn't do it. So I waited for her to slow down for an intersection and I bailed off the back of the bike. lol She kept trying to follow me and I showed the card to some people at a restaurant and she took off. Turned out I was about a block from my hotel and who knows where that bitch was taking me.

Everyone I've spoken to seems to report a much warmer welcome in the south, and it makes a lot of sense given the history. In the North, they are pretty much told their entire lives that foreigners (and especially the Americans and French) are the main cause of all the problems that exist there today, which honestly couldn't be farther from the truth. This plants the idea into their psyche that we owe them something so many take it as a free pass to bully and swindle us. There was even an American diplomat harassed and physically attacked by secret police up there in 2011.

A lot of tourists who go there wear their big rose-colored glasses and gladly pay double for everything, not even realizing they're being cheated. But resistance will be met with aggression, often physical. Vietnamese are known by citizens of other countries in the region to be the rudest and most aggressive of all Southeast Asians. Even a lot of Vietnamese people don't trust or like Vietnamese people. lol But again I think the North is where you'll feel it most.

I could also see a revolution occurring there at some point within the next decade - if it happens, it would likely happen in Hanoi, based on my limited knowledge of the country, because that's where the oppressive hand is heaviest and where the strongest dissent is brewing. All the young people I talked to voiced a very anti-government sentiment in hushed whispers - one of them stopped halfway through the conversation and made me promise I wouldn't write an article about our conversation (he knew I was an online writer) after I left because he was scared of getting in trouble. He had been tortured by the government multiple times as a youngster in the time leading up to the Vietnam War. All the others also made it really clear that the conversation was never to leave the room or they'd get in huge trouble.

The reason I say I think a revolution may happen is that all of this venting was done to me with no prodding on my part. I don't invite political conversations but everyone seemed to want one even with the risk involved.

For me it's a fascinating country and there is a complicated history with the U.S. that I'd like to explore more. And I could tell as many good stories as bad ones. I'll go back and explore more but I just walked away feeling I would not recommend North Vietnam to unseasoned travelers. Most people will pay a little more and stick to the tourist spots and be fine though - in fact, it's the one place I've been where I tell people they are better off being tourists on short trips, paying for guides and nice hotels, etc.

And there seemed to be a real strong expat community up that direction, which makes sense.

[big poppa]

I spent a week in HCM 2 months ago, but haven't been to Hanoi. Everyone I spoke with prefers HCM, saying that the people are friendlier and it's just a larger more exciting city.

Definitely agree with Beyond Borders, I was told by many people how lovely and friendly the Vietnamese are before I travelled there. I actually found them to be quite rude, ruder than the Thais and Cambodians anyway. If you're white they'll see you as a walking dollar sign and try to milk you for everything they can get. Keep your wits about you and you'll be fine - I had taxi drivers double the meter price when I wasn't looking, motorbike riders trying to charge me $20 for a half hour ride (when I was too stupid to negotiate price beforehand), etc

[DirectDanger]

I agree with @big poppa.

I found Vietnam interesting and have been several times. It just does not feel like a place I want to stay long term as the friendliness compared with Thailand/Philippines/Indonesia/Cambodia is not there. I had more problems with taxi scams there than in all my time ever in any other country.

To me Vietnam is very much worth a visit, just not the ideal place I would want to live.

[Beyond Borders]

Yeah, the taxi scams are pretty bad. I shared a cab with a European couple and the guy had a map, so he was able to figure out along the way that we were being driven in circles. He called the cabbie out on it and got him to bring us where we wanted to go. But then he made the amateur move of handing the driver the money without waiting for the change to materialize first. Cabbie just tossed their bags on the sidewalk and hopped in the car and jammed while they went to secure their stuff. They're probably lucky he didn't do it with their bags in the trunk.

You've really got to stay on your toes there because it seems like someone's trying to cheat you everywhere you turn, at least in tourist areas anyways. I'm sure it mellows out quite a bit if you head further off the beaten track.

[Kangaroo]

Saigon for sure, much more going on and way better night life.

[DoctaWho]

When I was in Saigon I pretty much stayed in one district but on the overall it was nice. I think the North/South contrast was that less people in the South seemed ambivalent (border line hostile) to my existence there than in the North.

I did meet some expats in other SEA countries who lived in Hanoi and liked it (apparently finding a private English speaking job is easier there). I got the impression that they mainly hung out in their expat community as well so I don't know if the foreigner/local dating thing is really going to work out that well. When I was in Saigon I met some people who had a facebook group for dodgeball of all things. The group had a good mix of foreigners and Vietnamese and everyone mingled well together, I'm not sure I can really see that in Hanoi.

[Patriarch]

Saigon it is. Which district did you all stay in?