[The Lizard of Oz]

Mike,

I've never shot test nor slapped on a patch. I've never fucked an Eskimo midget in the ass either, but reserve the right to claim that it would likely be a tight fit.

No doubt shooting some test will bring about a holy shit moment in any man -- but I worry about any and all substances that cause such a reaction -- substances with strong psychoactive activity are very tricky, and that I know from experience.

I've read these forums for a long while and I'm familiar with your view on these matters. There's no need to argue about it and there's no problem with different views being aired. Guys will decide for themselves what they're gonna do.

[JayJuanGee]

(09-30-2013 04:45 AM)RawGod Wrote:  

I'm genuinely unclear on which if your questions I have failed to answer, and what this pie in the sky might be.

I would think it is a courtesy on these kinds of forums to attempt to answer questions that are posed for you and if you cannot answer the questions then to say you don't know or have not experienced certain things or somehow state why you are not answering certain questions. Surely, guys can be jerks, sometimes, about maybe asking certain questions, but at least attempts should be made to frame your responses in terms of your personal experiences and not to speculate about how everyone is affected by something that it seems to appear that you have not experienced or that you do not have some other valid source for such an assertion. Certainly, giving sources can help us to become more informed (and I think that may be a goal of all of us).

Maybe you have actually experienced some of the things you have claimed, but you have not explained that very well or very convincingly in your various posts, and certainly that happens from time to time. So, we can give each other various passes for missteps like these. Nonetheless, it seems that if you had experiences that support your points, then you should elaborate on those experiences or at least describe better from where you are getting your information (or which studies?).

Let's say for example, you really are correct that you have lost no libido and no energy through your aging (and maybe even that you feel stronger and more sex drive) then you should be able to describe specifics about that in order that maybe we can figure out how we would be able to emulate such results and maybe descriptions about why and what circumstances have caused you come to your results and conclusions.

If you have tried certain testosterone supplements, then you should be able to specifically describe details about that as well and whether you tried those on your own or through doctor's counsel. You have answered some questions, but really vaguely, and in that regard MikeCF's specific questions seem fair to verify regarding your claims about having had used testosterone supplements, and if you did NOT perform certain lab tests or know why you were doing something in a certain way then you should be able to explain that rather than completely ignoring some of those inconvenient questions. Additionally, if you think so, then you could say that you think certain questions are irrelevant to the question at hand or to your experience or rather than completely ignoring certain questions that help to explain the basis for your knowledge.

I really do not mind guys making all kinds of claims, but if we are asked about the basis of our knowledge, we should try to respond to that or to say we do not know. We still may be correct, even if we do not have a basis of knowledge, and people will be able to give due weight to that information that you are providing.

I appreciate being called on these kinds of things too (as long as someone is not just being a jerk about it), and if I overstate something, then I will retract or correct myself or attempt to go at it again with a more accurate explanation.

(09-30-2013 08:26 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

Mike,

I've never shot test nor slapped on a patch. I've never fucked an Eskimo midget in the ass either, but reserve the right to claim that it would likely be a tight fit.

No doubt shooting some test will bring about a holy shit moment in any man -- but I worry about any and all substances that cause such a reaction -- substances with strong psychoactive activity are very tricky, and that I know from experience.

I've read these forums for a long while and I'm familiar with your view on these matters. There's no need to argue about it and there's no problem with different views being aired. Guys will decide for themselves what they're gonna do.

LOZ:

Certainly, I do not agree with MikeCF in several of his posts and several respects and including, necessarily, the benefits of testosterone supplements, and also I do not believe that a person has to have every single experience in order to have opinions about those experiences.

As I stated earlier, I am reserving some of my judgement about whether some day I may explore the possibility of testosterone supplements (or alternatively drug sexual performance enhancement).

However, on the other hand, neither you nor RawGod are explaining your own experiences or the basis for your knowledge about supposed NON-declines in sexual performance and NON-declines in energy of guys over 35 years. And you have been making several statements regarding how guys can maintain their libido and their energy levels into their older ages after 35 years and thereafter. This is probably the exception, rather than the rule.... and if it is really true, then you should describe from your own experience or at least point out your sources for coming to such conclusions. If you specifically have a study that supports your point of view, then point it out.... I would like to know your source(s), and if you are not just spouting off something that may or may not have a basis in some kind of reality.

Also, I think MikeCF, even stated, in some of his posts that he would not necessarily recommend testosterone supplements as a standard protocol for all guys, unless there is a reason for it... so it appears that potentially you and MikeCF agree on that guys can choose for themselves what to do regarding supplementation or whether they have experienced declines in their performance. Also, it appears that most guys on this forum seem to agree that there will be some perceptible short term benefits with testosterone supplements, and a dispute seems to be whether to take them in the long term and which guys will benefit from such. I would prefer more inclination towards natural treatments, but none of us count on being able to maintain our performances.

I think that some of us would probably be harping on the two of you less, if we were able to receive from you and from RawGod better and more complete delineations of your personal experiences or at least the citing of valid and legitimate studies, rather than bare assertions about other guys or trends that you believe exist. I know some of the guys here on this forum are into bro-science, and I do not have a real problem with that as long as we are sharing the sources of our assertions and we can accordingly come to our own conclusion based on knowing sources for our assertions.

[The Lizard of Oz]

JJG: one way to conserve the energies that you fear must decline is to write more concisely.

On the one had you are asking for "studies" -- something roundly (and not entirely wrongly) mocked by Mike btw -- and then somehow you want them buttressed by "delineation" of my experiences. I'm tempted to say that you need to make up your mind. Studies of every kind, pro and con, are always a pubmed or scholar search away -- and they are as dime a dozen as the anecdotes they only rarely better.

At both the beginning and the end of the day the reader is left to his own devices and to his judgements. That's as it should be. If you are curious as to the how and the why, well, take a spin through my profile and posts and you'll see that I've already given quite a bit of very specific advice as to how to retain energy and exploit health as one ages.

I recommend reading my posts in Manny09's thread for starters. You'll find many details, suggestions and even some outright hints. Enjoy.

[rudebwoy]

(09-30-2013 12:53 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Do you guys take T even though your levels aren't that low? I've never had mine tested but my cock is hard every morning for at least an hour or two my entire life but I am more tired these days a little..

Waking up every morning to a hard on would suggest your test levels are high and you are normal, if not above normal.

It's funny no one has a problem talking about Cialis/Viagra despite the many side effects and the long term effect which has yet to be reported.

Mention any kind of steroid and everyone has a negative view, going as far as to say they don't work.

JJG - don't waste your breath bro!

[JayJuanGee]

(09-30-2013 10:43 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

JJG: one way to conserve the energies that you fear must decline is to write more concisely.

Yes, I agree that sometimes my posts become a little wordy. I DO NOT do this on purpose or for any bad reason, and my previous post may have been repetitive in some regards. Accordingly, I accept your criticism of my sometimes wordiness. Hopefully, my wordiness has not zapped your energy too much or caused you to lose your sexual drive?

(09-30-2013 10:43 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

On the one had you are asking for "studies" -- something roundly (and not entirely wrongly) mocked by Mike btw -- and then somehow you want them buttressed by "delineation" of my experiences. I'm tempted to say that you need to make up your mind. Studies of every kind, pro and con, are always a pubmed or scholar search away -- and they are as dime a dozen as the anecdotes they only rarely better.

Probably, I do not agree with MikeCF regarding the extent to which he poo poos various studies. But you gotta have something…. Yes, you can find studies to say a lot of different things; however, that is where the devil is in the details, and at least we know how much whatever is claimed is based on studies, rather than you just guessing. Some studies just get the conclusion(s) wrong. You are correct that we can find studies, but I am not going to rely on flawed studies in the event that I find other studies that are more convincing… sometimes the studies are full bull shit and it is not easy, sometimes, to find the exact flaw in the study… especially some of the studies that are funded by big money with profit incentives.. that sometimes distract us from what we should be doing. So, in that regard, it seems that we all have to take various studies with a grain of salt and to figure out which sources we feel we can trust. And for some people, it comes down to only experience, and that is certainly not me. I would rather someone else die from something than me, and if I can learn from someone else how to maximize my benefits and reduce my costs, then that is what I will do.

Anyhow, my point was that you can talk from personal experiences, or you can show which studies you are relying upon in order to make your points. Either or both would be helpful. But you gotta do something rather than merely making assertions with little to no support.

(09-30-2013 10:43 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

At both the beginning and the end of the day the reader is left to his own devices and to his judgements. That's as it should be.

I agree that we all need to come to our own conclusions based on what we know, feel, and the best information that we are able to obtain and understand; however, I do not believe that we should come to our conclusion by finding whatever we want. At least, that is not how I live. Personally, I would like to grow and learn rather than just to find studies that support whatever I already believe at the moment. In that regard, if either you RawGod, MikeCF or any of the other guys on this forum is able to educate me or point me out to good information on any topic under discussion, then I am all for changing my ways of thinking. That is part of the reason why I joined this forum, to learn from guys that have some similar ideas about wanting to bang women and related topics. And, there is a lot of good information on these forums of topics that are interesting to me…. And some of it is more backed up by experience and or support than other.

(09-30-2013 10:43 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

If you are curious as to the how and the why, well, take a spin through my profile and posts and you'll see that I've already given quite a bit of very specific advice as to how to retain energy and exploit health as one ages.

I recommend reading my posts in Manny09's thread for starters. You'll find many details, suggestions and even some outright hints. Enjoy.

I would be more curious about the how and the why if you were just to answer questions directly about any given topic. Alternatively, if you said or cited something in a specific posting, then provide me a link, and I will happily read it. I looked at your posts and I don’t know what is “Manny09’s thread.” Why create a maze for me to maneuver?

I am not really curious to read all of your posts and all that you wrote so far on this forum because so far from what I have seen of what you have written, at least in this thread, you have not really backed up what you are saying regarding supposed NON-decline of energy and NON-decline of sexual libido. I am not asserting any of this in a personally derogatory way. I am just describing my impressions of what I have read. And, no, I do not claim to be any perfect communicator, either. Merely, I try my best to back up what I say, and especially if another RVF member asks for further explanation of the basis for my assertions.

In any event, why would I think that you would have backed up your various assertions in your other posts, unless you provide link(s) to those other posts. Why make me or some other RVF member do all the research into your opinion(s) and your previous posts rather than just pointing to the basis for your various assertions within this thread?

Actually, you and I may agree on a lot more than what seems to be the initial impressions. In that regard, you may be correct about everything you are asserting, but it would be nice to see a little more support for your various claims.

(09-30-2013 11:22 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

JJG - don't waste your breath bro!

Hehehe. You may be correct about the futile nature; however, by the time I read your post, I had already drafted my response… maybe a waste of time, and yeah it is getting a little repetitive. Sorry to everyone about the extent to which this posting may be repetitive.

[iknowexactly]

(09-29-2013 07:23 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

....Regarding other aspects of deterioration with age, yes I am in my early 40s and I have noticed that I do not have the energy that I had even 10 years ago..

Not to be dismissive, but if you're in your early 40's you probably haven't experienced much of the more noticeable, irreversible signs of aging yet. It happens bit by bit, you feel a little tired, but no more tired than when you were VERY tired at 35. So you think you will bounce back. But you never really do. Your baseline energy gradually declines, but the zig-zag progress camouflages the overall trend.

Judging by my fairly healthy history, The first irreversible symptoms are just starting. You've experienced 1/20 of what will happen in the future and frankly, are to some degree in the "bargaining" stage of denial. Remember the end point of this is that you don't even exist anymore!! You won't even be here to wonder how well you're aging!!

I was just watching the Vuelta D'Espagna, and Chris Horner, an American pro cyclist who is almost 42 years old WON A MOUNTAIN STAGE. That is an extraordinary achievement, the announcer said he was the oldest stage winner in a Grand Tour in history.

But the key to what I'm saying is there are absolutely NO 46 year old stage winners, and as far as I know not a single 48 year old professional cyclist in a Grand Tour. Not a single one. That is evidence the decline hits EVERYONE, not matter what health help they have.

When I was infatuated at 40, I could have still fucked every day. No way not in mid-fifties without TRT plus viagra.

[MikeCF]

(09-30-2013 08:26 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

I've never shot test nor slapped on a patch. I've never fucked an Eskimo midget in the ass either, but reserve the right to claim that it would likely be a tight fit.

Nah, the difference is that the information you have is all blue pill/lies from society.

It's like saying, "Game doesn't work," without having ever tried game.

Again, I'm the last thing from a "pusher." I make no profit.

But the information being shared in this thread contra testosterone is all false.

The media conspires against men and masculinity. That's why we all found this forum.

And yet guys repeat the media and medical establishment's lies about testosterone without saying, "Maybe they don't want me to be virile, energetic, and masculine. Maybe they want me weak and docile like a sheep."

It makes zero sense from a critical thinking standpoint to reject society's views on gender relations and then to parrot the very same establishment's lies about testosterone replacement therapy.

[MikeCF]

(10-01-2013 12:34 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Not to be dismissive, but if you're in your early 40's you probably haven't experienced much of the more noticeable, irreversible signs of aging yet. It happens bit by bit, you feel a little tired, but no more tired than when you were VERY tired at 35. So you think you will bounce back. But you never really do. Your baseline energy gradually declines, but the zig-zag progress camouflages the overall trend.

Right.

I am in tune with my biology because I played sports/did martial arts and lift.

If I went back on the mats to do BJJ, my body would feel like it was in a car wreck. Ligaments don't heal like they used to. Tendons shrink. I'm less flexible. I'm not nearly as explosive.

My friend trains Muay Thai and said the change in age from 35 to 36 is like night and day.

If you're not doing something that objectively measures performance, then the subjective mind thinks you're doing OK.

Aging is a frog boiling in a pot:
------

The boiling frog story is a widespread anecdote describing a frog slowly being boiled alive. The premise is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for the inability or unwillingness of people to react to significant changes that occur gradually.

[MikeCF]

Put it this way.

35 is not old. It's still the prime of a man's life. It's a great year to be alive.

But 35 is the "master's class" for most sports. A 35 year old body simply is not as good as a 28 year old body.

You can rely on old man wisdom and guile and what not, but even that small age gap - when you look at peak performance - is huge.

Incidentally, some will say, "Look at Randy Couture! He fought until he was 48."

He also received a therapeutic use exemption that allowed him to use testosterone while competing.

And the drug tests don't catch HGH.

So examples like Couture just prove what I and others have been saying about test/hgh.

[AnonymousBosch]

(09-29-2013 10:03 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

I believe us in our 30's and 40's are in a unique position. We are the meat in a shit sanwich. On either side are useless generations.

1. The baby bombers that won't die off quick enough an put us in the socio-economic disaster that will linger for 20+ more years. I'm beginning to think ObamaCare was put in place to expedite their exit.

2. Then you have the younger ones. Useless as tits on a boar hog. Us in the middle need to keep our shit together health wise to stay alive, and on top of everything else. The newer generations won't be able to lead, hold competent positions of office, say no to demands of women, keep a job, engineer even a dog turd.

Because of these two groups of brainiacs, we'll want to retire but be lingering around like Jesse Helms keeping the ship afloat.

So when you get up this morning gents take your vitamins, drink h2o, and hit the gym. Then go for a walk, and when passing by a Starbucks, flip off and mean mug the leeches of society sitting in there typing feminist, gay, hipster, democrat, yolo, and victim blogs on their Macs.

Brilliant observation, and look what it's leading to:

Homes Redesigned For The Sandwich Generation

[Baphomet]

(09-27-2013 05:42 PM)Steve9 Wrote:  

Just wondering if you can share how the aging process has changed your quality of life.

How has the loss of your libido, energy, & attractiveness affected you?

Do you hold many regrets? Dreams or expectations quashed?

I've heard that getting older makes us happier because we give up on our dreams.

The gaining of maturity, wisdom and confidence must offset some of the physical decline.

Sorry to bump this thread. Probably not the best way for a new poster to say hi to the masses here. That said, I wanted respond a bit to this post as a man in his late 40s. I'm going to leave the debate on testosterone aside as I believe it's been well covered by other members more informed than I.

I want to focus a moment on your last two sentences. The gains in maturity and wisdom are utterly priceless. Assuming that one has lived a life centered around self-improvement rather than sloth, these two things compensate for almost everything else.

Youth IS the time for making "stupid" mistakes. I recommend making as many of them as can be made. You have the luxury of time to recover from them, and that recovery time is where one develops "wisdom and maturity." It is from that personal development that dreams can be seen through to their fruition. Dreams that you allow to die, you will learn, are often dreams that you didn't really want. At least, not enough to work for them.

Dreaming is free, but actually HAVING those dreams is not. This is where that wisdom and maturity come in to play. With the development of those two things, you also will develop the means to have your dreams. Again, assuming that you're not lazy, aging and its associated wisdom and maturity brings wealth. Let me assure you, with wisdom, maturity, and money, the only thing keeping you from a hugely enjoyable lifestyle is dwelling on "regrets."

Regrets are the poison of all dreams and desires. "Regretting" mistakes is to dwell chained in the past to an anchor against forward progress and development. Worse, "dwelling in regretland" fosters the biggest poison of dreams (and the whole soul actually) - fear. Fear is where dreams go to die.

Make your mistakes. If they involve others, properly atone for them, LEARN what not to do again, and move on. This is the currency of wisdom and maturity.

[Downunder]

(10-09-2013 02:54 PM)Baphomet Wrote:  

(09-27-2013 05:42 PM)Steve9 Wrote:  

Just wondering if you can share how the aging process has changed your quality of life.

How has the loss of your libido, energy, & attractiveness affected you?

Do you hold many regrets? Dreams or expectations quashed?

I've heard that getting older makes us happier because we give up on our dreams.

The gaining of maturity, wisdom and confidence must offset some of the physical decline.

Sorry to bump this thread. Probably not the best way for a new poster to say hi to the masses here. That said, I wanted respond a bit to this post as a man in his late 40s. I'm going to leave the debate on testosterone aside as I believe it's been well covered by other members more informed than I.

I want to focus a moment on your last two sentences. The gains in maturity and wisdom are utterly priceless. Assuming that one has lived a life centered around self-improvement rather than sloth, these two things compensate for almost everything else.

Youth IS the time for making "stupid" mistakes. I recommend making as many of them as can be made. You have the luxury of time to recover from them, and that recovery time is where one develops "wisdom and maturity." It is from that personal development that dreams can be seen through to their fruition. Dreams that you allow to die, you will learn, are often dreams that you didn't really want. At least, not enough to work for them.

Dreaming is free, but actually HAVING those dreams is not. This is where that wisdom and maturity come in to play. With the development of those two things, you also will develop the means to have your dreams. Again, assuming that you're not lazy, aging and its associated wisdom and maturity brings wealth. Let me assure you, with wisdom, maturity, and money, the only thing keeping you from a hugely enjoyable lifestyle is dwelling on "regrets."

Regrets are the poison of all dreams and desires. "Regretting" mistakes is to dwell chained in the past to an anchor against forward progress and development. Worse, "dwelling in regretland" fosters the biggest poison of dreams (and the whole soul actually) - fear. Fear is where dreams go to die.

Make your mistakes. If they involve others, properly atone for them, LEARN what not to do again, and move on. This is the currency of wisdom and maturity.

Wise words indeed!

Welcome aboard Baphomet