[topdog]

I am about to complete 6 months in my first job after getting my engineering degree. It is a job I really like and has a rather good pay for an entry-level job without experience. I learn a lot and get to travel.

Some days ago the guy I work the closest with asked me to talk in private. He wanted to know how I felt after these 6 months and if there could be something I wanted to give an opinion about.

Well, after that part of the conversation, he stated something that left me speechless: Many of the guys working for the department thought I was too formal for what they are used to and they think I should be "less formal" or "relax" they say. He used arguments like: "Well, you know you are in a group of engineers from X (prestigious popular government college, where I also studied in after all) and you know how we talk and how we do things. So, just relax a bit." This guy also encouraged me to keep on working as well as I have done, telling me that I am easily the fastest learner he has worked with, and he thinks I will match his knowledge about what we do in just a couple months.

Since I joined this company I tried my best to treat everyone respectfully/politely but with assertiveness. Perhaps I learned to behave this way because I worked with engineering doctors for my final thesis in college. Everyday I dress my best (sometimes in jeans, when field work has to be done) and keep a relaxed body language (I am tall, about 6'7") but standing straight. I shake hands with everybody in the department and am willing to help out when asked.

Again, I was left speechless.

Now, please bear with me about the following. I will write some thoughts and I would really appreciate if you helped me find out if it's my hamster or something:

*Could It be that my personality makes them feel threatened because I do not fit the "herd" way of thinking?
*My partner also told me that my formal personality fits perfectly when we do interact with project directors and managers, but it's not as convenient when inside our department (100% male engineers).
*I believe that my formal and assertive way of speaking fits my physical appearance (somehow like a calm elephant), instead of talking loud with slang and jumping around like a kid.

Have you ever faced something like this?

[Gallego2006]

What's the atmosphere like there? Do they "shoot the shit" much? Joke around with each other?

[topdog]

(04-16-2013 08:52 PM)Gallego2006 Wrote:  

What's the atmosphere like there? Do they "shoot the shit" much? Joke around with each other?

Yes, they do often (mostly the "group"). I am younger than them (they are around 28yr old). As I have yet to "fit in completely" I don't make serious jokes at the office, just when we go grab a drink or something.

Other than that, the atmosphere is of somewhat high pressure, often due to things the customer wanted done months ago and aren't done (due to external factors, of course).

[Lemmo]

It is your first job so you should follow the example of those around you to determine what is normal behavior. But considering this guy isn't a supervisor who has a need to critique your behavior, especially about something so minor and innocuous, he may just be an effeminate gossip and busybody. You'll encounter all sorts of dysfunctional personalities in the work place. People like this may get off on trying to control you, tell you what to do, make you a submissive member of his herd - none of which is necessarily in your interest and all of which he may use to screw you over at a later date. If he isn't an authority figure, take it with a grain of salt.

[polymath]

If you trust him, and you think the other guys actually expressed discomfort at how formal you act, then the right move is to pay attention to it and try to be more personable with your team. Engineering is a highly collaborative profession, and it's important to be cooperative and generate personal relationships with the people who work alongside you.

It's also possible that he's wrong, and you're doing just fine. Don't let it get to you, just take the advice into consideration and act how you see fit.

What kind of engineering work are you doing?

[titan22]

(04-16-2013 08:34 PM)topdog Wrote:  

*My partner also told me that my formal personality fits perfectly when we do interact with project directors and managers, but it's not as convenient when inside our department (100% male engineers).

This mixed with the rapid learner aspect almost strikes me as fear and jealously. He, and the team, might be fearful that your ability to relate to directors and managers would have them considering you, the new guy, over them in the event of a promotion opening up in the future. A bit of a self defense mechanism where if you fit in and don't show better qualities and traits than the crowd they have to go with the old standby of seniority.

[topdog]

(04-16-2013 09:34 PM)Lemmo Wrote:  

It is your first job so you should follow the example of those around you to determine what is normal behavior. But considering this guy isn't a supervisor who has a need to critique your behavior, especially about something so minor and innocuous, he may just be an effeminate gossip and busybody.

After the conversation, I figured out that the "healthiest" thing to do was to try and imitate what others do. But that isn't easy for me.

Regarding the guy that talked to me, I didn't describe him fully. I respect and admire him in many dimensions. He is madly good at what he does, he often leads the group (where to go to eat, what plans for the weekend, etc) and for what I've heard he's good with the ladies (besides having his main girlfriend). He's cool and smart. That is why I was surprised to hear this from him.

The next day another coworker, who is bad-ass and older than the others, gave me a piece of advice. Regarding that "group" of guys (4-5 guys, including the cool guy that talked to me): "Just be careful with them, I'm just sayin...".

(04-16-2013 09:34 PM)Lemmo Wrote:  

You'll encounter all sorts of dysfunctional personalities in the work place. People like this may get off on trying to control you, tell you what to do, make you a submissive member of his herd - none of which is necessarily in your interest and all of which he may use to screw you over at a later date. If he isn't an authority figure, take it with a grain of salt.

That's the thing I suspect is happening.

In the end, I just want to enjoy my time while working. Maybe I cannot be everybodies' friend, but rather a likable acquaintance.

[topdog]

(04-16-2013 09:41 PM)polymath Wrote:  

If you trust him, and you think the other guys actually expressed discomfort at how formal you act, then the right move is to pay attention to it and try to be more personable with your team. Engineering is a highly collaborative profession, and it's important to be cooperative and generate personal relationships with the people who work alongside you.

It's also possible that he's wrong, and you're doing just fine. Don't let it get to you, just take the advice into consideration and act how you see fit.

What kind of engineering work are you doing?

RE: Telecommunications.

As I posted in a past reply, I respect and admire him, but I don't know if I can trust him fully.

Anyway, I will make some effort to be more personable -as you say- to the guys. Currently every morning I greet and shake hands with anyone who arrives, and talk relaxed with my partner about the work to do. Maybe It was a self-control mechanism of my mind to not get involved in other's personal lives when at work. With my non-work friends I share a lot of stuff, It's simply not the same.

In my naive mind I thought of buying a box of donuts some friday but that's not the solution at all, heh.

[topdog]

(04-16-2013 09:45 PM)titan22 Wrote:  

(04-16-2013 08:34 PM)topdog Wrote:  

*My partner also told me that my formal personality fits perfectly when we do interact with project directors and managers, but it's not as convenient when inside our department (100% male engineers).

This mixed with the rapid learner aspect almost strikes me as fear and jealously. He, and the team, might be fearful that your ability to relate to directors and managers would have them considering you, the new guy, over them in the event of a promotion opening up in the future. A bit of a self defense mechanism where if you fit in and don't show better qualities and traits than the crowd they have to go with the old standby of seniority.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, maybe. But anyways, there is a very competitive ambience in this company for any promotion.

Now, thinking about it I remember he also shared a story of his time as a newcomer, which sounded way too familiar to mine. He also had conflicts with a particular project manager regarding expenses, tool availability and unrealistic deadlines. It got heavy for what he described.

AAAAAAND, the old lone-wolf who warned me about the "group" also told me that some of the guys thought it wasn't correct that I kindly asked for a ride to the metro station when someone brought one of the company's car. They were used to not asking at all and to take the bus when they just began working here. On the other hand everytime I get a company car I offer everyone a ride to the metro station. I think it is the minimum thing I should do when having the benefit of a paid car. Not surprisingly, the old lone-wolf always accepts the ride (he lives far far away).

[Thomas the Rhymer]

Frankly it sounds like that guy is jealous of your rising star in the company and is shit-testing you.

I say just continue doing what you're doing.

Be a dick.

Assholes finish first.

[guerrilla]

You should be able to "chill" with your colleagues after hours, yeah?

[Hades]

I can't really add anything that hasn't been said already.
A little selective honesty would have gone a long way here because he surely went and reported everything to his buddies. Fulfilling his expectations of being the terrified intern surely could not hurt.

One of the laws of power is about playing the courtier. Basically you should have two different faces for dealing with coworkers compared to how you deal with management, it's more acting than lying. My guess is that you should make some steps to being a little less stiff with your coworkers but it's your call. You want to be a friendly subordinate to management and a human being to your coworkers.

What I usually do is give myself some "humanizing vices" if I ever threaten people with on the job performance (which happens a lot less often these days, haha). A good example would be low level functional alcoholism, smoking, chasing some strange butterfaced sluts, that sort of thing. When you see this humanizing vice done in romantic comedies designed to make the usually hot and privileged older female lead relate-able to ugly trailer park skanks, she's always clumsy.

You might want to pick up the 48 laws of power or something but my guess is that they're feeling a little threatened.

[Dulceácido]

Invoke the Popeye Defense:

"I am what I am and that's all that I am."

[Lights]

Go in the bathroom at work and stand in front of the mirror.

Light up a cigarette.

Make pretend the reflection in the mirror is that PIECE OF SHIT who DARES to tell YOU how FORMAL you should conduct yourself in that GODDAM OFFICE.

You will act as formal as the goddam QUEEN OF ENGLAND if YOU DAMN well please.

You will button your buttons to the tippy top, stay well pressed congenial because YOU

YOU

hold yourself to a higher standard.

YOU WILL CARRY the burden of formality in that office and will CRUSH whoever dares oppose you.

Who the FUCK does that guy think he is. THe ambassador of casual flip flop wishy washyness. Fuck him, fuck them. You will carry the cross of formalism(sic) and the highest standards becAUse you are of the highest order and will lead a formal revolution on their ASSES.

[Dulceácido]

(04-17-2013 02:08 AM)Lights Wrote:  

Go in the bathroom at work and stand in front of the mirror.

Light up a cigarette.

Make pretend the reflection in the mirror is that PIECE OF SHIT who DARES to tell YOU how FORMAL you should conduct yourself in that GODDAM OFFICE.

You will act as formal as the goddam QUEEN OF ENGLAND if YOU DAMN well please.

You will button your buttons to the tippy top, stay well pressed congenial because YOU

YOU

hold yourself to a higher standard.

YOU WILL CARRY the burden of formality in that office and will CRUSH whoever dares oppose you.

Who the FUCK does that guy think he is. THe ambassador of casual flip flop wishy washyness. Fuck him, fuck them. You will carry the cross of formalism and the highest standards becAUse you are of the highest order and will lead a formal revolution on their ASSES.

Rock-solid!

(If the Popeye defense doesn't work out)

[Belize King]

Think about your Username OP. Fuck what they think. Do you see yourself with the company beyond 5 years? I wouldn't worry about co-workers. In and out. Unless you need them for networking purposes, keep them at a distance.

[DVY]

Don't listen to them in heart. Only on face.

Keep up the good-work, don't get involved in work cliques... Make friends w/the people 1 and 2 levels above you and keep calm, good-natured communication w/your colleagues at your level.

As for this guy giving advise, he sounds like a borderline sociopath. Just pay lip-service to him and his clique. Float in and out as you please. Gain everything, lose none of the work-ethic/promotion capabilities.

Don't bounce these types of ideas off the lone-wolf. Hes the last person you should ask about social group dynamics. If anything, just hint at meeting up w/this and this person. Ask him what he thinks about them...

[Lemmo]

(04-16-2013 09:45 PM)topdog Wrote:  

(04-16-2013 09:34 PM)Lemmo Wrote:  

It is your first job so you should follow the example of those around you to determine what is normal behavior. But considering this guy isn't a supervisor who has a need to critique your behavior, especially about something so minor and innocuous, he may just be an effeminate gossip and busybody.

After the conversation, I figured out that the "healthiest" thing to do was to try and imitate what others do. But that isn't easy for me.

Regarding the guy that talked to me, I didn't describe him fully. I respect and admire him in many dimensions. He is madly good at what he does, he often leads the group (where to go to eat, what plans for the weekend, etc) and for what I've heard he's good with the ladies (besides having his main girlfriend). He's cool and smart. That is why I was surprised to hear this from him.

The next day another coworker, who is bad-ass and older than the others, gave me a piece of advice. Regarding that "group" of guys (4-5 guys, including the cool guy that talked to me): "Just be careful with them, I'm just sayin...".

(04-16-2013 09:34 PM)Lemmo Wrote:  

You'll encounter all sorts of dysfunctional personalities in the work place. People like this may get off on trying to control you, tell you what to do, make you a submissive member of his herd - none of which is necessarily in your interest and all of which he may use to screw you over at a later date. If he isn't an authority figure, take it with a grain of salt.

That's the thing I suspect is happening.

In the end, I just want to enjoy my time while working. Maybe I cannot be everybodies' friend, but rather a likable acquaintance.

1. Don't trust anyone at the office until you have reason to do so.
2. Don't assume anyone at the office is a friend unless they've behaved as such for a few years. I've found it is less stressful to keep my social life and work life separate. I have good long time friends from work anyway but this was accidental and they generally weren't people I was actually working closely with on a day-to-day basis.

This guy just sounds like he is full of himself and trying to convey he is the big swinging dick of the group. Most likely, he'll mention in his self-assessment that he took the newbie under his wing. No need to be confrontational but in your mind you can dismiss it and move on. Just make sure your own behavior is within the bounds of what is expected at the office (which is different from becoming his obedient little pet).

[w00t]

[Neo]

I can't be sure exactly what is going on without observing the situation in person, but shaking hands with all of your coworkers every morning to me is a bit much. I'd say this is contributing to the thoughts that you're too formal.

Lots of the advice in this thread is rock solid. Do your best to keep work and personal life separate. Make sure you get a good read on people before you decide to really befriend them.

It may be hard to see this now, but status in a corporate environment is all relative, and in reality mostly everything about working in a corporation is artificial.

When (not if) you get another job you'll never talk to the majority of the people again and you probably won't give a shit about your supervisors or bosses. There are cases where someone takes a genuine interest in your development and becomes a mentor, but these situations are rare. You'll probably look back on the situation and realize you really have nothing in common with the people except the shared goal(you both want to make money). It's similar to looking back at high school, imagine that one of your teachers from HS was telling you to do something now, what would be your reaction? Fuck off? Yeah same here.

Bottom line, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Do your best to fit in, joke around a bit and befriend the people in the levels above you and you'll be fine.

[The Great Basilisk]

Why would you shake hands with someone every morning? You shake hands with someone you meet for the first time or haven't seen in a long time and don't know very well yet.

[topdog]

(04-17-2013 02:08 AM)Lights Wrote:  

Go in the bathroom at work and stand in front of the mirror.

Light up a cigarette.

Make pretend the reflection in the mirror is that PIECE OF SHIT who DARES to tell YOU how FORMAL you should conduct yourself in that GODDAM OFFICE.

You will act as formal as the goddam QUEEN OF ENGLAND if YOU DAMN well please.

You will button your buttons to the tippy top, stay well pressed congenial because YOU

YOU

hold yourself to a higher standard.

YOU WILL CARRY the burden of formality in that office and will CRUSH whoever dares oppose you.

Who the FUCK does that guy think he is. THe ambassador of casual flip flop wishy washyness. Fuck him, fuck them. You will carry the cross of formalism(sic) and the highest standards becAUse you are of the highest order and will lead a formal revolution on their ASSES.

THIS, gentlemen, is what my ears expected to hear.

I think highly of myself and I show it by behaving highly. I dress sharp, I put quality in my work, so I behave in consequence.

There is this stereotype for engineers being less concerned about their appeareance than the managerial, corporate or lawyer kinds. I will not abide to this stereotype. I will be the guy that managers recall by saying: "Yes, this guy in the custom suit was there when things got rough and solved it with his bare hands." No more expectations of a lazy-ass frumpy engineer.

@w00t: I will apply the Robert Downey Jr. method. Listen, Smile, Agree and keep on my tracks.

[topdog]

(04-17-2013 05:06 AM)Neo Wrote:  

I can't be sure exactly what is going on without observing the situation in person, but shaking hands with all of your coworkers every morning to me is a bit much. I'd say this is contributing to the thoughts that you're too formal.

&

(04-17-2013 06:35 AM)The Great Basilisk Wrote:  

Why would you shake hands with someone every morning? You shake hands with someone you meet for the first time or haven't seen in a long time and don't know very well yet.

We share a big office with many desks, so when someone arrives it is the custom that he comes to the place we are sitting and shakes hands with each one. It is what we use to do.

(04-17-2013 05:06 AM)Neo Wrote:  

Lots of the advice in this thread is rock solid. Do your best to keep work and personal life separate. Make sure you get a good read on people before you decide to really befriend them.

I remember many years ago there was some girl who repeatedly called me by phone just to chat (to my naive self this was just curious). Some day when we were with friends, she said she and I were very good friends -which wasn't the case- and said that I trusted her a lot.

I promptly clarified saying that I didn't trust her because it took at least 3 years of knowing someone for me to trust him.

I think I got that thing good since I was younger, luckily.

(04-17-2013 05:06 AM)Neo Wrote:  

It may be hard to see this now, but status in a corporate environment is all relative, and in reality mostly everything about working in a corporation is artificial.

When (not if) you get another job you'll never talk to the majority of the people again and you probably won't give a shit about your supervisors or bosses. There are cases where someone takes a genuine interest in your development and becomes a mentor, but these situations are rare. You'll probably look back on the situation and realize you really have nothing in common with the people except the shared goal(you both want to make money). It's similar to looking back at high school, imagine that one of your teachers from HS was telling you to do something now, what would be your reaction? Fuck off? Yeah same here.

Bottom line, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Do your best to fit in, joke around a bit and befriend the people in the levels above you and you'll be fine.

Yeah when I hit the manager's and director's office for paperwork I always greet them and chat a bit (if they aren't busy or something, of course). It seems to me that I hit it off well with higher levels than mine.

[topdog]

(04-17-2013 03:58 AM)Lemmo Wrote:  

1. Don't trust anyone at the office until you have reason to do so.
2. Don't assume anyone at the office is a friend unless they've behaved as such for a few years. I've found it is less stressful to keep my social life and work life separate. I have good long time friends from work anyway but this was accidental and they generally weren't people I was actually working closely with on a day-to-day basis.

I totally agree with keeping things separate. It is pitiful to me that some guys fish for approval from others by showing pictures of girls they are "expecting to go out with" on their smartphones.

(04-17-2013 03:58 AM)Lemmo Wrote:  

This guy just sounds like he is full of himself and trying to convey he is the big swinging dick of the group. Most likely, he'll mention in his self-assessment that he took the newbie under his wing. No need to be confrontational but in your mind you can dismiss it and move on. Just make sure your own behavior is within the bounds of what is expected at the office (which is different from becoming his obedient little pet).

This is solid.

[topdog]

(04-17-2013 02:13 AM)TexasMade Wrote:  

Think about your Username OP. Fuck what they think. Do you see yourself with the company beyond 5 years? I wouldn't worry about co-workers. In and out. Unless you need them for networking purposes, keep them at a distance.

Now... thinking of it... there was this guy that worked here before me (let's call him Mr. A) who was young and very talented. He also was a total dick.

In the end, he quit the company a month after I joined and today he is in a better position within one of our customer's lines, earning twice the pay. He is 26 yr old.

Talent + Total dick + Networking = BAM!