[Tigre]

Nah, I don't deny what you're saying. But it's not material to me.

It's a big world out there. They even have profitable business and stock markets outside of North America these days!

If you put a bit of creative energy into looking for opportunities, you'd find them.

If the market is rigged to the long side, all the more reason to buy and hold a good business.

There are some successful investors on this forum. But you have to question the quality of the advice given when the prevailing opinion given on stocks is that they're zero sum. I'm not interested in day trading. Investing in stocks is still a huge opportunity to build wealth, and it makes no sense to avoid the entire asset class.

[captaingeneric]

(10-29-2012 03:06 PM)Sherman Wrote:  

I put money into correlated stock pairs. For example, Home Depot is over 90 percent correlated with Lowe, so depending on where the spread is in its range I short one and go long the other. This strategy is almost market neutral. If the market drops 300 points, it won’t affect my portfolio. I don’t care if the market goes up or down because I make or lose money on the variations between the two stocks and not the general market move. It’s more complicated than that, but that is the general idea. Investing is just gambling unless you have deep pockets and can tolerate large drawdowns. I choose to trade and not invest.

I'm still a complete rookie when it comes to investing, but I've never quite understood the point of this strategy and other similar hedging strategies. You've got money coming in on one hand and money coming out of the other. You essentially break even. So what was the point?

[Sherman]

(10-30-2012 01:03 PM)captaingeneric Wrote:  

(10-29-2012 03:06 PM)Sherman Wrote:  

I put money into correlated stock pairs. For example, Home Depot is over 90 percent correlated with Lowe, so depending on where the spread is in its range I short one and go long the other. This strategy is almost market neutral. If the market drops 300 points, it won’t affect my portfolio. I don’t care if the market goes up or down because I make or lose money on the variations between the two stocks and not the general market move. It’s more complicated than that, but that is the general idea. Investing is just gambling unless you have deep pockets and can tolerate large drawdowns. I choose to trade and not invest.

I'm still a complete rookie when it comes to investing, but I've never quite understood the point of this strategy and other similar hedging strategies. You've got money coming in on one hand and money coming out of the other. You essentially break even. So what was the point?

You make money on the pair the same way as you make money on a stock - buy low, sell high. The pair is an investment entity with a price no different than a stock. But, the main difference is that you now don't have to worry about whether the market is going up or down. The volatility comes from the divergence and contraction of the prices of the stocks of the two companies. You make money on the difference price of the pair.

[BIGINJAPAN]

(10-30-2012 12:52 PM)Tigre Wrote:  

Nah, I don't deny what you're saying. But it's not material to me.

It's a big world out there. They even have profitable business and stock markets outside of North America these days!

If you put a bit of creative energy into looking for opportunities, you'd find them.

If the market is rigged to the long side, all the more reason to buy and hold a good business.

There are some successful investors on this forum. But you have to question the quality of the advice given when the prevailing opinion given on stocks is that they're zero sum. I'm not interested in day trading. Investing in stocks is still a huge opportunity to build wealth, and it makes no sense to avoid the entire asset class.

I am not saying don't invest in it. I myself am a trader. But it would be foolish to deny market manipulation. Also with distortions going on around the world and Central banks pumping away, no one knows for sure where the money is going and what it is doing. So even far off markets are having price distortions.

The guys who will get into buy and hold situations are the ones who will get crushed. You have to be quick and nimble. The swing traders are the ones who will make a lot of money in the future.

[SelfPaid]

Stock Trading and Real Estate both are a Skill that you cane learn and Master.
I Personaly make money Trading and have friends that Make Money in Real Estate and since I am going to Invest in Real Estate in America maybe I cane give you some value.

1. Real Estate is much easier to do you baysicly don't need to be a Genius and have such a long Learning Curve like with Trading.

2.Both on the otherhand with Trading you cane start Small and Build up you're Confidence, plus the returns are much higher so it's about you're end goal you have to think about.

If 20k is all you have should Work on Building that Up since ase long ase I know 20 K doesen't go that Far in Real Estate. So I would start with Learning how to trade maybe even investing a few thousand to gain acces to a Proffesional, that cane show you how to do it.

You might want to start with a Demo Account and find out if it is fore you and if it is learn the basics master it and create you're own Strategie. Ase soon ase you feel comfortable you cane start with 1000 and ase you have dobbled that Invest More.

I don't know how much you currently earn with you're Job, but you might need arround 1-2 Million to replace you're income with Real Estate earning arround 10- 15 % Return. With Trading you cane achieve that much much faster if you're smart and not attached to Money that much.

If you want I cane send you some material that you cane Watch since education and the right Mindset is key in Investing. You baysicly have to know what you're doing ore know someone you trust who know's what he is doing in order to be succesful in both erias.

Another Option that maybe might not be available to you with just 20k is letting someone else manage you're money fore 25 % of the Profits.

That's baysicly what I did and still do even though I know what I am doing I have most of my Wealth managed by a good friend of mine who is one of the best forex Traders in the World when it comes to return on you're Money.

If you have acces to hedge fund traders ect maybe that is an option fore you while you learn the skills since money is easly transfered:
from people who don't know what they are doing to people who know what there are doing And I quess you want to be Smart with you're Money.

Eric

[tallglassofmilk]

First let me begin by sharing Mark Cuban's advice :The Stock Market is still for Suckers and why you should put your money in the bank. While I don't completely share his 'stated' view in the article. The truth is that having cash creates opportunity. It creates the opportunity to start your own business or take advantage of crashes in markets (for instance real estate or stocks). The question then becomes, are you the kind of person who wants to watch and wait for an opportunity while your money sits in a bank or do your prefer lower more consistent returns with "more" stability?

I personally have money in stocks, although am a conservative dividend investor (mostly). The bulk of my strategy is to have a bunch of companies which I believe are solid stable companies which provide the goods needed for life, for example Siemens, Johnson and Johnson, and General Electric, wait for bad news to come out about them and buy on the dip with the faith the companies are in long run still going to be around. Remember in the stock market, you gain money slowly and lose it fast.

I started reading this thread because I want to get into real estate, but I don't yet know enough to feel comfortable putting money in it (and my long term situation is unclear--not sure how long I will be living here).

Cheers friends

[SelfPaid]

(11-03-2012 02:02 AM)tallglassofmilk Wrote:  

First let me begin by sharing Mark Cuban's advice :The Stock Market is still for Suckers and why you should put your money in the bank. While I don't completely share his 'stated' view in the article. The truth is that having cash creates opportunity. It creates the opportunity to start your own business or take advantage of crashes in markets (for instance real estate or stocks). The question then becomes, are you the kind of person who wants to watch and wait for an opportunity while your money sits in a bank or do your prefer lower more consistent returns with "more" stability?

I personally have money in stocks, although am a conservative dividend investor (mostly). The bulk of my strategy is to have a bunch of companies which I believe are solid stable companies which provide the goods needed for life, for example Siemens, Johnson and Johnson, and General Electric, wait for bad news to come out about them and buy on the dip with the faith the companies are in long run still going to be around. Remember in the stock market, you gain money slowly and lose it fast.

I started reading this thread because I want to get into real estate, but I don't yet know enough to feel comfortable putting money in it (and my long term situation is unclear--not sure how long I will be living here).

Cheers friends

( I am unfurtunatley not that good at text communication but..I will try to do my best)
____________________________________________________________
I agree that having acces to Cash is important since you don't know which oppertunity's might cross you especialy now with alle the wealth that is beeing transfered you need to be able to take advantage of the oppertunities and buy asset's ase soon ase they are undervalued ore und replacement Value like Real Estate is at the Moment.

I see the Stock Market more ase a Way to Generate Casflow and build up Capital real Wealth is in Real Estate since you actualy cane controll Real Estate more than you cane ever control a share ore the stock market if you don't actualy are the owner of the company that gives out the shares.

It depends on how much Money you have acces to and with Real Estate you just need much more Money to generate the same Income ase with shares. So building up you're Capital is what you need to do and than have some CAsh as a Buffer, maybe 35% depends on you're Risk Profil, 50 % in Real Estate and the rest in High Growth Investments, Like Trading, Business ect that cane increase you're overal Net Worth.

The Point is you need to know what you're doing so Invest in Education first before you do any of that....Going in like the masses without a clue is financial suicide and just Stupid.

I hope you could understand what I am trying to comunicate because I unfurtnatley have a weakness when it comes to text communication .

[Lukecan]

Investing in commercial property is better IMHO, but there are a lot of opportunities in the stock market in developing countries where the local traders are fuckin stupid, e.g Turkey,Malaysia.

Most local traders in developing countries see the stock market as a place to get rich quick, so they take stupid risks and invest in very bad companies where the owner is usually some corrupt fucker. Lots of pump and dump schemes happen in those kind of stocks, and some people put their life savings there in order to become rich, and bitch at the government when they get robbed out of their money.

[SelfPaid]

(11-03-2012 01:03 PM)Lukecan Wrote:  

Investing in commercial property is better IMHO, but there are a lot of opportunities in the stock market in developing countries where the local traders are fuckin stupid, e.g Turkey,Malaysia.

Most local traders in developing countries see the stock market as a place to get rich quick, so they take stupid risks and invest in very bad companies where the owner is usually some corrupt fucker. Lots of pump and dump schemes happen in those kind of stocks, and some people put their life savings there in order to become rich, and bitch at the government when they get robbed out of their money.

Commercial Property might be Better but is Harder to get into in my Opinion I don't know much about commercial Real Estate but have a few friends here in Germany who's Parents Rent to Shop's Cinemas and even night Club's but they have owned that Property fore Generations.. do you have experience in that field ?

Great Idea about the stock market in developing countries Jim Rogers talked about Investing in Russia since he thinks that Putin might change his Politics about taking people's Money fore fun I heared Mongolia hase some oppertunites aswell.

But to me personaly things like that just make sense If you allready have achieved you're Financial Goals with Solid Investments and cane afford to loose abit of play money most People can't actualy do that.

I heared Istanbul is on of the City's which hase alot of oppertunities compared to the rest of Europe do you live there ?

[Lukecan]

(11-03-2012 03:02 PM)SelfPaid Wrote:  

(11-03-2012 01:03 PM)Lukecan Wrote:  

Investing in commercial property is better IMHO, but there are a lot of opportunities in the stock market in developing countries where the local traders are fuckin stupid, e.g Turkey,Malaysia.

Most local traders in developing countries see the stock market as a place to get rich quick, so they take stupid risks and invest in very bad companies where the owner is usually some corrupt fucker. Lots of pump and dump schemes happen in those kind of stocks, and some people put their life savings there in order to become rich, and bitch at the government when they get robbed out of their money.

Commercial Property might be Better but is Harder to get into in my Opinion I don't know much about commercial Real Estate but have a few friends here in Germany who's Parents Rent to Shop's Cinemas and even night Club's but they have owned that Property fore Generations.. do you have experience in that field ?

Great Idea about the stock market in developing countries Jim Rogers talked about Investing in Russia since he thinks that Putin might change his Politics about taking people's Money fore fun I heared Mongolia hase some oppertunites aswell.

But to me personaly things like that just make sense If you allready have achieved you're Financial Goals with Solid Investments and cane afford to loose abit of play money most People can't actualy do that.

I heared Istanbul is on of the City's which hase alot of oppertunities compared to the rest of Europe do you live there ?

I heard about the great opportunities in Mongolia as well, the banks pay a pretty good interest rate there.

I live in Ankara, my family owns like 6 big/small commercial properties here, thats our main source of income. There are some opportunities but you have to be really careful when buying a commercial property. You gotta analyze the market really well, some guy who tried to sell us the commercial property claimed that it reeked in 6000tl a month in rent, when we analyzed the real return prices , it turned out that it could bring in 2500-3000tl at most.

Sometimes the guy who rents your property turns out to be a total douche and doesn't pay the rent.

For me a stock paying a steady 8%-10% dividend is better, that way you dont have to deal with stupid tenants.

One of the companies I'm looking at investing now is Turk Telekom, has a pretty good dividend yield, and its a huge monopoly, even other ISP's use their infrastructure to provide internet

[Way Cool Jr]

(11-03-2012 03:34 PM)Lukecan Wrote:  

One of the companies I'm looking at investing now is Turk Telekom, has a pretty good dividend yield, and its a huge monopoly, even other ISP's use their infrastructure to provide internet

Are you talking about Turkcell?
Do you think that Avea has the potential to grow as a company?

[Lukecan]

(11-03-2012 03:46 PM)Way Cool Jr Wrote:  

(11-03-2012 03:34 PM)Lukecan Wrote:  

One of the companies I'm looking at investing now is Turk Telekom, has a pretty good dividend yield, and its a huge monopoly, even other ISP's use their infrastructure to provide internet

Are you talking about Turkcell?
Do you think that Avea has the potential to grow as a company?

Nope, Turkcell and Turk telekom are completely different. Turk Telekom owns %81 of AVEA, so we can say it controls avea

I dont see a great future in AVEA TBH, it provides shit service, however I see a good future in Turk telekoms internet company TTNET, they own all the infrastructure and are a outright monopoly.

[Way Cool Jr]

(11-03-2012 04:04 PM)Lukecan Wrote:  

(11-03-2012 03:46 PM)Way Cool Jr Wrote:  

(11-03-2012 03:34 PM)Lukecan Wrote:  

One of the companies I'm looking at investing now is Turk Telekom, has a pretty good dividend yield, and its a huge monopoly, even other ISP's use their infrastructure to provide internet

Are you talking about Turkcell?
Do you think that Avea has the potential to grow as a company?

Nope, Turkcell and Turk telekom are completely different. Turk Telekom owns %81 of AVEA, so we can say it controls avea

I dont see a great future in AVEA TBH, it provides shit service, however I see a good future in Turk telekoms internet company TTNET, they own all the infrastructure and are a outright monopoly.

Ok, thanks for making it easier.

Actually hearing of TTNET makes me remember all their shitty service that I had with them. xD
Everybody in Turkey was complaining about them, but yes, they are a very powerful company and have a monopoly.

[SelfPaid]

(11-03-2012 04:04 PM)Lukecan Wrote:  

(11-03-2012 03:46 PM)Way Cool Jr Wrote:  

(11-03-2012 03:34 PM)Lukecan Wrote:  

One of the companies I'm looking at investing now is Turk Telekom, has a pretty good dividend yield, and its a huge monopoly, even other ISP's use their infrastructure to provide internet

Are you talking about Turkcell?
Do you think that Avea has the potential to grow as a company?

Nope, Turkcell and Turk telekom are completely different. Turk Telekom owns %81 of AVEA, so we can say it controls avea

I dont see a great future in AVEA TBH, it provides shit service, however I see a good future in Turk telekoms internet company TTNET, they own all the infrastructure and are a outright monopoly.

Hehe that is Why I Trade and if I Buy Real Estate I have a trusted Company ho Manages that. I am Not going to fly to America just because a tenant needs a New lightbulb cool that you're Family Makes Commercial Property Work fore them. I Stick with residential that's Fine fore me....
By the Way my uncle who Moved to Dubai and invested in African Real Estate had alot of tenants calling his phone before he Paid a Company to Deal with that Stuff. Know all he sees is the Money comming in so if you do it Smart you don't realy have to Deal with tenants you'reself at least in Residential in Commercial it might be different. A School friend of mine who's Family owns alot of Property in the Place I live actualy no there Tenants and just Rent to High Quality Shops.

That is how they make there living other than that they have a Property Managment Company who does the Rest and my friend just Started Working there so He learnes the skilss and cane Support the Family.

Cool that you live in Ankara I have only been tho Antalya once I was 13 more a Tourist Destination but me and siblings had Great Fun ... i didn't Bang haha but got to know a cute englisch Girl which made the holidays Even more Fun.

I think Istanbul is realy interresting City I should go and See it.
You Guy's made alot of Things right compared to the Rest of Europe
Peace Eric ( I know what that means in Turkey )

[_DC_]

I'm basically sold on Section 8, but have my worries about being a absentee landlord. Miami used to have a great buy to rent ratio but its gone up 100% in the past year or two from 9 to 17 (still under the "buy" margin of 20). It would be my one and only property for a while, so I feel very obligated to get something in a good market like Ohio were the buy to rent ratios are very low and I can get a nice 3 bedroom brick property for ~100k (20k down). My goal would be a getting 2x in rent what I owe on a 10 or 15 year mortgage payment.

As I mentioned before I have a secure well paying job, so if I couldn't find a good tenant family for a few months it would be fine. The way I see it is mortgaging a nice 100k home is a much safer longer term investment then throwing down 20k cash for a shit house in the hood. I have no intentions of flipping the home, but want to buy one in good shape as it stands (i dont have the time or skills for renovation).

The two obvious caveats are finding a quality tenant and maintaining the property while 1000 miles away. Has anyone had experience finding a tenant from afar? I believe some companies will do upkeep for 10% of the rent (though obviously I would pay for repair materials etc). My goal is a quality residence and thus quality and long standing tenants (families, not hoodrats).

The grand plan would be saving the rent income and in a few years buying another property. Rinse and repeat. I have a fantastic job but I'm near the salary ceiling and this is a chance to increase income down the road.

[pittsburghkid]

I've been looking into real estate investment for some time. I'm currently a junior on college and am learning about REIT's. It seems to me that after the initial startup process, legalitys and gathering your 100 investors this is a way to get rich, like your own island rich. And while Im sure that its not easy to start one of these complicated endeavors, every community has like minded professionals with expertise in these areas, and a wallet to invest. So, my question would be is it realistic to expect a kid with a state university degree and 4 years of sales experience to be able to start a trust out of college. I suspect Im being naive. What do you

[pittsburghkid]

I've been looking into real estate investment for some time. I'm currently a junior on college and am learning about REIT's. It seems to me that after the initial startup process, legalitys and gathering your 100 investors this is a way to get rich, like your own island rich. And while Im sure that its not easy to start one of these complicated endeavors, every community has like minded professionals with expertise in these areas, and a wallet to invest. So, my question would be is it realistic to expect a kid with a state university degree and 4 years of sales experience to be able to start a trust out of college. I suspect Im being naive. What do you guys think?

[_DC_]

Yes you're being naive. How do you plan on getting "100 investors" to invest in someone who has no idea what they're doing? If you started with your own money (like im trying to do above), expand to several houses and develop a business model with factual proven success, then you might get people to invest.

Even then its just like any other business. I have no idea where you're getting the private island rich idea from.

[Menace]

DC I have property rented out in NC. I have a property manager that takes 8% of collected rent. Highly recommended because I guarantee things will go wrong. Finding renters is not hard for a SFH. He found them for me through a real estate company and charged $250 for agdnt commission.

[Lothario]

Great Posts WIA and DC, What's your take on

1. Student housing: Some say they are bad tenants, I live in a town with two universities in the Mid-West and see a lot of housing being built for students. There are some quality Post Grad students that can be good tenants. Any Experience ?

2. How about just getting a 15 year Mortagage an not 30 yr, isn't it cheaper in the long run, paying less interest to banks ?

[pittsburghkid]

I quoted 100 investors because this is the required amount to be legally considered an REIT. Also the plan wasn't to simply go around asking people for money to invest in this new business, like I mentioned I'm sure there are other like-minded individuals who would be willing to come on board at the ground floor. I personally have a few personal friends who are landlords and Im certain that if they saw an opportunity to invest these ppl would instantly jump on it.

[pittsburghkid]

Also, I'm not interested in investing in rental properties. My interests lie in commercial real estate, which clearly I cannot finance myself.

[pittsburghkid]

The own island rich thing comes from my professor in college, who is a commercial real estate mogul and is the one who first mentioned these trusts. He's a multi-millionaire.

[_DC_]

Lothario, I wouldn't recommend college students because there is a high probability that they'll destroy the place. We totalled the shit out of a house in college one year.

Menace, 8% collected rent doesnt seem bad at all. I'm guessing you flew outtoseethe place? im also considering buying in my home town for an excuse to drop by a couple times a year. do the tenants stick around. Is it paying off?

As for mortgage, the answer is crystal clear. Heres the results for 100k, 20% down, $3500 a year for tax and insurance, and 3.2% rate: 15yr is $851/month and 30yr is $637/month. 15yr total interest of $20,800, 30yr is $44,500. Seems easy to pick the 15yr. Only 200 more a month, you own the proprty twice as fast, and save $24,000 in interest.

if I was paying $851 a month I'd probably ask for at least $1,700.

[Menace]

(11-17-2012 03:26 PM)_DC_ Wrote:  

Menace, 8% collected rent doesnt seem bad at all. I'm guessing you flew outtoseethe place? im also considering buying in my home town for an excuse to drop by a couple times a year. do the tenants stick around. Is it paying off?

Yes I have seen the place. My current tenants are a family. I would never rent to students. They just signed a 2 year lease actually. My rent covers the mortgage (30 yr fixed) and the property tax. This year had to replace coil in the AC unit, which cost effectively one months rent. Generally you also have to shell out cash every time a tenant turns over to replace carpet or repaint, etc. NC is actually a good market for investment. Lots of cheap housing stock and people are always moving there.