[joehoya]

(02-21-2012 04:14 PM)MiXX Wrote:  

...So, what do you suggest I start practicing (as tough as that will be) to tone my cocky-asshole game down for Poland? How far toned-down do I have to go? My trip is April 15th to get ready.


Should I start practicing complimenting girls on how pretty they are up front, pretending I care what they have to say, buying flowers (good g** this is going to be difficult), and holding doors open?

It's almost as if I am unlearning game

Mixx

MiXX,

Is your game really cocky-asshole, or just confident-aggressive? IMHO, there is a difference. I have had to adjust my level of aggressiveness with women, depending on where I am. In some situations, the level of aggressiveness I display with a Costa Rican or Dominican chica would actually be considered threatening to some American girls.

[Greek kamaki]

Basically they want to beat you up it is the EU that does not allow them.

[pitt]

(02-21-2012 03:42 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

When in Rome, do as the Romans. The Roman alphas that is!

I don't care if my actions are considered "alpha" or "beta". That's a debate about words, language, and semantics.

I only care if my actions bring money, women, and happiness.

I can get those things Bill Gates style.

I can get those things Jay-Z style.

I can get them loud and flashy or I can get them quiet and reserved.

I'm only concerned with getting them.

I'll leave the "alpha/beta" debates for internet forums.

Thats whats up.

[Roosh]

Kamaki is sometimes 100% accurate, and other times like now he is just about 100% wrong. Sometimes I want to +1 rep him, and other times I want to ban him. He's a contradiction.

Anyway, I "unlearned" a bit of game in Denmark so when I got to Poland I was succeeding right off the bat. Yes, give sincere compliments. You can even open with them. Yes buy a drink or two in the club. Don't need to buy flowers though. Seriously, no game, just be chatty and dance and escalate. You'll figure it out quickly... once you meet the girls your instinct will be to tone it down.

Only exception is Polish girls who lived outside of Poland, especially in USA/Britain. Then you can ramp it up.

[Greek kamaki]

Where am I wrong?Polish guys want to beat but they do not dare.It is another thing what they want and another what they do.How do I know what they want?

Many polish guys are soft and very intellectual looking and also many look like workers of hard manual labor.In clubs in Poland you will not find many of the dresiarz and manual labor guys.They frequent pubs where they get cheap drinks.In clubs you will find a bit more presentable Poles.(many drunks as well but definitely not the type you meet outside the churches drinking from day till night watching people and women as they pass by).

[Greek kamaki]

Polish girls like compliments for sure.Even usual ones like you have very beautiful eyes work.The reason is that Slavs generally do not make many compliments and girls have a fragile ego.

I also make other compliments like ''you look very polish'' or you have ''very shapely slavic legs'' which they like.Compliments on bizuteria like ''you have very nice earrings'' do not work so good though because their cosmetics are cheap and they are ashamed of them(ulike Russian and Ukrainian women who got them from sponsors and are proud of them.I got it from my mother they will say).

Your tatoo is very nice also works polish women have an esthetics talent and manage to create flamboyant appearance with good result.

[Duke Castile]

It doesn't sound to me like Roosh stopped being an Alpha so much as adjusted his game. It probably felt very nice to have real talk with women that were not so damaged in their outlooks/philosophy. It sounds almost like Roosh was going direct with his game. Buying drinks for a girl that doesn't take it for granted isn't beta in my opinion.

And I have no experience in Poland but I think Roosh is very right Mixx, you know women, you will naturally adjust, just like when you know it's cold outside you will put on a coat rather than acting as if it's sunny even though you live in Miami.

[Tuthmosis]

(02-21-2012 05:11 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Kamaki is sometimes 100% accurate, and other times like now he is just about 100% wrong. Sometimes I want to +1 rep him, and other times I want to ban him. He's a contradiction.

Maybe "kamaki" means siamese twins in Greek. He's actually two people. One has mad game, dresses tight, and pays attention when they travel. The other one is full of shit. You never know. It's possible.

[bengalltigerr]

Mixx, You're a true player, you will never have to tone down your game, no matter where you go.
Women like men who like to lead, but feminists are the other way around.

[Moma]

(02-21-2012 09:32 AM)MiXX Wrote:  

See, this can be a problem for guys like me. Not because I do not want to adjust my game, but because our upbringing made us "hard and tough". Along with my mother raising me to "be a man" and get used to pain, and demonstrate leadership at all costs.


The making of a true alpha is not because he read countless books on how to be an Alpha. It's because he was raised in an environment that MADE HIM AN ALPHA, both at home and on the streets.

Asking me to be very shy, is like asking Diddy to buy his clothes at Walmart.

(02-21-2012 04:03 AM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  

As I have written before in slavic countries women run the game and if guys attempt to do it they seem strange and unreliable and get disqualified.

What? This seems stupid, but I see what you mean. I was talking to a FOB polish girl tourists about 2 months ago, and she told me she did not like American men because they were too arrogant. I then asked her what she meant, and she said one guy she was with told her he only wanted her for sex to her face (an alpha trait, no shame in just wanting sex and being up-fron about it), and she said that he then had sex with her best friend and kicked her out of the house. Polish men would never do that.

(02-21-2012 04:03 AM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  

It is good to appear weak and vulnerable.

My upbringing will not allow this. Asking me to appear WEAK AND VULNERABLE like asking Obama to vote Republican, or asking one of the soldiers of the 300 to kneel to an opponent.

I seriously need to rethink my strategy in Poland, based on what you and Roosh are posting, I am being set-up for failure.


Mixx

Mixx, the fact that we are travelled men and are open minded, hence learning from our travels, means that we have to be flexible in our dealings.
If you cannot switch your style to get what you want, means that you should just stay put where you are at.
If you do some sort of business (which I think you do), you know that you have to modify how you interact with different clients in order to get what you need/want. If you want to close a million dollar contract with a French client one day and then another million dollar contract with a German the next day, it would be asinine to approach both in the same way.

We all want to be able to do things our way and get things we want but that's not the way the world works.

Remember your intent is to get some cutty. As long as your values aren't being compromised too much, you should be as flexible as a senator to get your votes (the azz).

If your environment is changing or you are in a different environment (travel) and you cannot compromise your values, then you will surely compromise your lifestyle since you won't be getting any and you will be watching betas bugger the sweetie pie's that elude you.

Alpha is about surviving and being dominant (succeeding) in the environment you are in. It's not about sticking to a rigid principle just for the sake of a label. You know who you are. Fcuk a need to prove it to the peasants.

[oldnemesis]

(02-21-2012 09:32 AM)MiXX Wrote:  

See, this can be a problem for guys like me. Not because I do not want to adjust my game, but because our upbringing made us "hard and tough". Along with my mother raising me to "be a man" and get used to pain, and demonstrate leadership at all costs.

When an American dude says that women outside the USA do not want the alpha male, they are often talking about American-media-representation of alpha male, which could be briefly described as a "loud asshole frat boy". Roissy in particular popularizes this kind of "alpha male" behavior, and this always makes me wonder what kind of chicks he's dealing with.

However this is not what the alpha male is for. The main and obvious traits in alphas is leadership. It is acting AND taking the responsibilities for his actions everywhere. It is not possible to "play alpha" when you pick up chicks and be a passive pussy with your boss, family, parents or friends. You are in a car with a group of friends, and the car is broken - if you're their leader, they will basically expect you to fix this situation, i.e. to take an action and accept the responsibility for it. And you're not likely even get a "thank you" once you resolved the situation. This is why there are so few of them - it is a tough job in a tough world, and personally I'd consider it is stupid trying to get there just to fuck chicks as no chick is worth it.

And from the leadership do come other traits which women find attractive, such as confidence (surely you gonna have it after you've been taking the responsibility your whole life), aloofness (you know what REAL problems are; that some chick calls you weird is not worth even a second of your thought) and so on. Those traits are universally attractive, but only if there is a leadership substance behind them. No body language training will help.

AFAIR you did martial arts, so you understand the example. Remember those guys who have practiced MA for 6-18 months and feel and behave like they're invincible Bruce Lee basically trying to find a way to get into fight? And compare them with those who studied MA for years. They behave very differently - they're calm, confident, and they are not trying to get into the fight. And nobody wants to fight them.

That's what we're ending with:

Quote:

The making of a true alpha is not because he read countless books on how to be an Alpha. It's because he was raised in an environment that MADE HIM AN ALPHA, both at home and on the streets.

And that's what I'd say about the subject:

- If you're true alpha, you'd be fine everywhere - because you take the leadership and responsibility.

- If you read too much Roissy and play alpha just to get laid, it will get you some lays in US because the chicks are both more shallow AND more forgiving, but not outside the US (i.e. if you put good performance, an American chick may suck your dick; a Polish chick will not).

For an average dude, however, you'd still be much better in a long term by making your life more interesting instead of learning routines and practicing body language in front of a mirror though. You don't need to be alpha at all. You just need to LIVE an interesting life most people would like to be part of - and do it for YOURSELF, not for the chicks you'd be picking up. Especially American chicks.

And Mixx you'll be fine in Poland. Just be yourself buddy.

[MiXX]

(02-21-2012 04:47 PM)joehoya Wrote:  

(02-21-2012 04:14 PM)MiXX Wrote:  

...So, what do you suggest I start practicing (as tough as that will be) to tone my cocky-asshole game down for Poland? How far toned-down do I have to go? My trip is April 15th to get ready.


Should I start practicing complimenting girls on how pretty they are up front, pretending I care what they have to say, buying flowers (good g** this is going to be difficult), and holding doors open?

It's almost as if I am unlearning game

Mixx

MiXX,

Is your game really cocky-asshole, or just confident-aggressive? IMHO, there is a difference. I have had to adjust my level of aggressiveness with women, depending on where I am. In some situations, the level of aggressiveness I display with a Costa Rican or Dominican chica would actually be considered threatening to some American girls.

Humm....I think it's:

15% asshole, 35%playful, 30% aggressive 20% cocky.

You are dead-on with some American white girls think it's too aggressive. Many have told me to slow down......after my tongue is in their mouth.

Mixx

[Cookie]

I think the Alpha/Beta thing is way to black and white.

I'm always in charge of stuff (in fact I've been working for my college's T.V. Station for a month and am already running half it's news program), really confident, and work insanely hard (I live in the 3rd poorest part of Iowa, and have still managed to make enough to help pay for college, travel abroad, and still have normal spending money).

On the other hand: I've been called the nicest guy alive both dozens of men and women, I'm never a jerk to women (although I do use negs, just to keep the conversation dynamic and snarky), and I'd describe my game as "nice guy who still builds sexual tension, and escalates".

To me the whole argument of what makes an alpha is based way too much around "bad boy, thug, ice cold player" type ideals.

In my opinion the whole thing comes down to ambition: The Alphas have it (they make an effort to master the seduction women, make bankroll, and live the good life). Betas always think they're "good enough".

[rudebwoy]

Mixx - I cannot believe for one second you are sweating this, the only thing I would say to you is do not come across as the obnoxious loud mouth American I have witnessed too many times in Europe.

Other than that, Polish men are a joke (Roosh wrote about this I believe). They have no fashion sense and are super macho, some may call it Alpha I call it trying to compensate. You have too many weapons in your arsenal, just don't go with high expectations. Greek Kamaki is not you, so his view points will apply to him. I mean just saying you are from sunny Miami compared to gloomy Poland should get the panties wet.

One thing we can agree on is that there women are sexy and there will be more than enough that will like you. I would say they like confident men but not cocky.

[Greek kamaki]

It is about calibration.You have to calibrate quickly.You Americans will likely get away with some stuff because they will attribute it to cultural difference so you will be excused at least in the beginning.They expect from us Mediteraneans to be more adapted.

For example I cannot go to Poland and play the absolute Greek boy with komboloi and stuff.I remember I was in the car of my polish girlfriend in Wroclaw and it was so quiet it started making me nervous.So as typical Greek I opened the window and increased the volume of music so everyone would hear us.

Immediately the polish girl shut the window down and stopped the music.She told me such behavior is not tolerated in Poland.Here in Greece is good to make some noise to light the blood as we say here in Poland is not accepted.You have to keep more quiet.So you have to adjust.

[Entropy]

roissy wept......

[Excelsior]

I think this debate is missing some important context.

What we've all observed is a disturbing trend: the mating game in the USA seems to favor dysfunction. As Roosh said:

(01-31-2012 11:33 PM)Rooshv Wrote:  

I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that something is wrong with a culture if the women explicitly prefer alpha males. It makes illogical sense from a biological and humanitarian standpoint that a woman would go after men who will not provide or take care of them. Consider that women in America are mindlessly rushing to be used as cum buckets, which is being further encouraged by the media and Hollywood that makes fun of beta men for being boring, dopey, or unromantic.

Roosh is right, something is definitely up. But what could it be?

Refer back to a thread I started earlier this month regarding the mental health of the average American, particularly the American female.

The thread title and the first article linked show that, on the whole, around a quarter of American women are mentally ill. This represents a significant jump over men (whose percentage of mentally ill is significantly lower).
What this means: one out of every four women you meet will be off mentally.

This is merely an introductory conclusion-things become much more interesting when you break this down by age, as later posts in the thread (cibo uses some charts and statistics to break it down further here) make clear.



(again, credit to cibo for making these)

A quarter of ALL American women are mentally ill, but there is much variation by generation. Older women (who we can suspect grew up slightly more sane times) have rates of illness at roughly half of what we're used to from young girls now. When you go down to talk about young women in the 18-21 range, and you're looking at a nearly 40% rate of reported illness.

In other words: nearly HALF of the 18-21 year old women you run into day to day are not alright upstairs. Those are only official, reported numbers-we are not counting the legions of women who, either shy or fearing ostracization, will not report their status and go undiagnosed for periods of time (with some never seeking treatment).
It is likely that the actual, total rate of illness for girls in the 18-25 range (the one we guys, young and old, tend pursue the most) is close to 50%, and almost certainly over 40%. This is by far the highest rate in the developed world, making the USA a fairly unique case.

We've also all seen how the dynamic Roosh outlined (female obsession with becoming cumbuckets for distant men and female hatred for more laidback/respectful dudes) is also most common among younger girls. Younger girls just so happen to be the craziest ones in our society.

What I'm positing here is that there is a strong correlation between mental health and dysfunctional mate preference. American women are more susceptible to these loud, rude, dismissive, aggressive and seemingly insane fratboy/bet/thug/jersey-shore and just all around asshole mating tactics from guys because they're actually significantly crazier than other women across the world (younger American girls even more so). There is no method to their madness and they really cannot be reasoned with about it either-they're too far gone.

Bottomline: We are seeing crazy female mate choice because many of our females actually are crazy. Simple as that.

Roissy-type tactics are built for women like this (who I suspect are particularly common in places like DC), and will work wonders on them. They won't be needed for many other women (ex: Poles, Scandinavians) simply because those women are more mentally stable on average.

[MiXX]

(02-22-2012 12:35 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Mixx- do not come across as the obnoxious loud mouth American I have witnessed too many times in Europe.

That is definitely not me.

I'm more of the mysterious, walk with my head up/chest-out full of pride, and glance and smile at females and make them think if I was checking them out type of guy.


Mixx

[Pilgrim37]

(02-21-2012 04:29 PM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  

In Poland a lot also depends on how much ground polish men will give you.If you try to extract the alpha class of women they will come to block you.It is slavic pride.Generally they took me for a Slav in Poland(usually Czech or Ukrainian) so the suggestions were relatively friendly.I am not sure what will happen if you have the wrong color of skin.

Anyway I remember I was in Berlin in a trip and came for one day excursion to Poznan.After doing every perversion possible(hardcore stuff) with a girl who came to visit me from province I locked her in hotel room and stromed to Budha Bar club.There I was totally dominating the guys there could not believe their eyes how easily I extracted phone numbers,hugs,kiss closes.What destriyed me was the dance floor polish girls call you to dance with them and I am bad at dancing I simply do not get the rhythm.So at this point my power collapsed and I had to go back to the hotel and fuck the girl I locked there.Next day morning I got back to Berlin and got some phone numbers in the train to there as well.

Of course confrontations with Polaci did not miss but as I explained always in a friendly mode respect the Slavs they are considered friends here.

"I am bad at dancing I simply do not get the rhythm.So at this point my power collapsed"

Another corker from Kamaki to help me spew my drink

[oldnemesis]

(02-21-2012 09:56 PM)Cookie Wrote:  

On the other hand: I've been called the nicest guy alive both dozens of men and women, I'm never a jerk to women (although I do use negs, just to keep the conversation dynamic and snarky), and I'd describe my game as "nice guy who still builds sexual tension, and escalates".

This is fine. There is nothing wrong with being (and being called) a nice guy. You can do everything frown upon - open the doors, buy people drinks and bring them to the dinner - as long as you're doing it for yourself, just because you're this kind of person, and not because you want something in return.

Quote:

To me the whole argument of what makes an alpha is based way too much around "bad boy, thug, ice cold player" type ideals.

Correct. People see the behavior and make a conclusion that this is the behavior which brings the results. A thug is getting laid because he's a leader (which implies confidence and social status), not just because he is a thug. And not every thug is getting laid.

Quote:

In my opinion the whole thing comes down to ambition: The Alphas have it (they make an effort to master the seduction women, make bankroll, and live the good life). Betas always think they're "good enough".

Just having the ambitions is not enough. One needs to put effort - i.e. take the risks and accept the responsibility for them. This is the difference between a keyboard jockey with ambitions and a real thing.

[xmlenigma]

They way I see it the more mentally FIDGETY UNSTABLE they are they more STRAIGHT up TOUGH LOVE ..DADDY DISCIPLINE. FATHER FIGURE .. BREAKING DOWN they need. The less mentally dramatic they are .. and more straight up.. the less BREAKING them down you need to do.

[Excelsior]

(02-27-2012 05:22 AM)xmlenigma Wrote:  

They way I see it the more mentally FIDGETY UNSTABLE they are they more STRAIGHT up TOUGH LOVE ..DADDY DISCIPLINE. FATHER FIGURE .. BREAKING DOWN they need. The less mentally dramatic they are .. and more straight up.. the less BREAKING them down you need to do.

As I said above: nearly half of young American women are off upstairs. This is why so many American guys see straight up asshole-game working so effectively. Only nutty women would accept such an approach, and American women just happen to be crazier than most.

[Laner]

Great post Athlone. Do you ever date older women (around 30)?

When I was around 20 years old I did not notice the crazy factor so much as I was still figuring out the ways of the mating game. Things that would raised red flags now, were only just a bit of a head scratcher and not really something to put too much thought into as I chalked it up to the game.

When I hit about 30yo I started to see girls again in their early 20's. For most of my 20's I hooked up with women my age, or older. So, while the level of crazy was just a tequila shot away I really couldn't complain too much about the average woman being nuts.

So here I am at 32 and I have not been seeing girls my age much. I am starting to see girls who are mostly in their early 20's. The level of bullshit is quite staggering. I try to see people as equals and give everyone a fair shot. I let people speak their mind, and if they have something to say I generally let them get on a roll. But I am very hesitant to hear what these girls have to say. Their arrogance is at least 15 years beyond their intelligence.

The actions of these young girls are hard to deal with. As much as I love being with a young beautiful girl, I get very anxious to leave after sex. At least with women in their late 20's and early 30's I like to spend time with them. Again, I feel I am among "equals" if that makes any sense. After sex I dont mind hanging out, having a glass of wine and talking for a while. Most women I hook up with at this age have interesting stories and hobbies and don't get judgmental when I step outside for a smoke. They also know how to cook, fuck and dress.

[MiXX]

(02-27-2012 08:13 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

As I said above: nearly half of young American women are off upstairs. This is why so many American guys see straight up asshole-game working so effectively. Only nutty women would accept such an approach, and American women just happen to be crazier than most.

Hummm...That's some Ivy League philosophy as usual from you Athlone. Very interesting post.


Mixx

[Excelsior]

(02-27-2012 08:46 AM)Laner Wrote:  

Great post Athlone. Do you ever date older women (around 30)?

Nope. My dealings thus far in life have been exclusively with women in the 16-23 range.

Quote:

So here I am at 32 and I have not been seeing girls my age much. I am starting to see girls who are mostly in their early 20's. The level of bullshit is quite staggering. I try to see people as equals and give everyone a fair shot. I let people speak their mind, and if they have something to say I generally let them get on a roll. But I am very hesitant to hear what these girls have to say. Their arrogance is at least 15 years beyond their intelligence.

The actions of these young girls are hard to deal with. As much as I love being with a young beautiful girl, I get very anxious to leave after sex. At least with women in their late 20's and early 30's I like to spend time with them. Again, I feel I am among "equals" if that makes any sense. After sex I dont mind hanging out, having a glass of wine and talking for a while. Most women I hook up with at this age have interesting stories and hobbies and don't get judgmental when I step outside for a smoke. They also know how to cook, fuck and dress.

You've hit on a big concern for me. The older I've gotten and the more aware I've become of female insanity in this society, the more likely I've been to just lay back and let some prospects go by. I just can't be bothered with the crazy-sometimes, not even the prospect of sex can justify it (especially where I am-lots of girls here actually believe that consensual sex = rape).

What you're seeing is a function of the age-gap in female craziness.

The rate of mental illness for women at around 32 years of age is just over 25%-still pretty high, but not a whole lot when you compare it to women in my age range (18-21) whose rates approach 40%. If you're surrounded by average college chicks, you're quite likely actually surrounded by varying degrees of crazy.

Understanding this is important for inner game, I believe. A lot of young guys get pretty hard on themselves when it comes to approaching and trying to get somewhere with their female peers. The thing is that half of the women they are dealing with are actually insane, so many of the failures/rejections they have could very well not even be their fault.

Let's say you're a young dude, an objectively good looking, fit guy. You get shot down by a girl. You look back on it, and your training from the Roissy school shows your mistakes: you were too nice, too interested, too boring, too romantic, etc, all too early. You made it too easy for her, didn't show enough social dominance, weren't cocky/funny/selfish enough. She lost interest.
You look to yourself and say "Damn, I fucked up. Gotta work on my game, I was wrong this time!"

But were you really? Is your merely being a decent guy (read: not treating her like a sex toy) truly a fundamental flaw as her rejection would seem to indicate, or is her repulsion to such respectful behavior the real problem here? Roosh's post has brought this issue to light and I'm glad for it, because it doesn't get a lot of attention in the manosphere: we beat ourselves up for not reaching these womens' standards, when many of those standards are insane to begin with.

When dealing with crazy people, even the right moves can be wrong.

We sit here trying to figure out why women do the things they do these days (the thug worship, the attention whoring, the cock-carousel riding, absolute hatred of genuinely nice guys, etc, etc). We're beating ourselves up trying to understand what is going on, when in at least half of the cases the answer is clear and simple:

Bitches be crazy (literally).