[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

I think there is value in 5x5, but I also think that people get very dogmatic about how they lift. It's not like there have been randomized double blind studies with controls scientifically comparing how people gain differently on different programs.
I've listened to countless debates on whether it's better to lift in the morning or afternoon, whether its best to split or do full body, how much cardio, when etc etc.
In the end, I can say that the most important thing is consistency - get your ass moving and results follow.
Never forget that after a workout you will ALWAYS feel good, don't let internal LMR convince you to skip or put off a workout.
Also, focus on form, and PAY ATTENTION to pain signals - there is a huge difference between muscle soreness and actual pain where pushing harder leads to injury. And injury prevents consistency, which is the most important thing.
The human body is highly adaptable to benefit from different types of workouts, but injury and poor nutrition are enemies of this.
Lastly, don't put crap in your body. Natural protein from organic eggs or meat and vitamins from vegetables and fruit are superior to any manmade powder or pill. Eggs in particular are my favorite and give me fantastic results when I'm bulking up. It took millions of years of evolution for nature to create this perfect mixture of super nutrients designed to nourish an embryo at the highest growth stage of life.

[Switch]

(01-13-2015 03:48 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

Switch, throw a max, or close to max, set of 3-5 rep deadlift on your squat day.

I don't like the way traps look on my body. I'm not very tall and I feel that big traps make me look even shorter. I have a few uncles that lift, and assuming I have similar genes, I have the potential to get huge traps, which I don't want. So I avoid exercises that hit them too hard. I figure OHP and pullups will hit them enough. Do you think this will create muscle imbalances that could lead to injury?

Edit: I don't like the look of traps like the set below, so I don't deadlift because I fear it will make my traps too big.

Is this a legitimate fear? Or am I being irrational? I'd rather have big traps than an unhealthy body, so if I have to start deadlifting I will, I just don't see the need personally.

[WanderingSoul]

Irrational fear lol.

You're not going to get traps like Goldberg anytime in the foreseeable future, so don't worry about that. And he's pumped and flexing there. Your traps won't look anything like that.

You don't HAVE to deadlift, but it's a great lift for strength and building a good back, so I'd definitely do them if I were you.

[Saweeep]

He is right though that larger traps can make one look more boxy.

Plenty of guys training for aesthetics don't do shrugs for this reason.

[PainPositive]

(02-11-2012 06:34 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

Don't listen to anyone in here telling you not to squat three times a week and to modify the program. They have absolutely no clue what they are talking about and are talking from their asses. Do the program as is for great results.

I agree with this. Most of the comments here are so far off base. One guy was saying he was in week 2 while squatting 150. The program tells you to start with the bar (45lbs.) for all exercises besides deadlifts. This helps your form and prevents injury. If you've already been working out it tells you to start with half of your max for 5 reps.

Some people telling others to stay away from stronglifts after not reading it or understanding the basics. It's hard to get injured when added so little weight (5lbs) and starting from just the bar.

I had a knee injury 6mo. ago and have read about rehabilitation using squats. My knee has its full range of motion back and feels stronger than ever and I've been doing stronglifts for only 4 weeks. Starting from scratch and adding 5 lbs. a session has been tested my patience but has also given me great results. I don't think you can judge a program until you follow it to a T.

[Mess O.]

Didn't know there was a Mehdi thread. Backtracking through it now. Looks like Rio's taken the lead on it. One thing I can say for sure is that Mehdi's texts provide a solid inspiration, and sound well-grounded.

[Denzel]

Medhi's stronglift 5x5 program delivers what it promises... STRENGTH. Sure you will gain some muscles and body definition but if you want more muscles, this program is not optimal for muscle gain in my experience. Well, with the exception of leg muscles. Regardless, I recommend the program.

If you cannot complete 5 rep in a set, make sure that your form is correct, especially if you run iinto this problem in the first six weeks. OHP will probably be the first lift that you may not complete a 5 rep in a set. There wil be days, you can only lift 4 or 3 rep in a set but in your next try you can successfully complete 5x5. This is not considered as stall in stronglift by the way. Stalling is not being able to lift the same weight 5x5 three times consecutively.

The first four weeks of the program will be easy with the rest time 1 minute or so. You will be done in 40 minutes. In the fourth-sixth weeks, you might need 3 minutes rest for some of the lifts. In the sixth week and after, you might need 5 minutes rest so you will stay in the gym for 90 minutes or more. This may be a bit boring but you are also close to stalling. You might have reset some lifts by the ninth week and after. On some days, you will say "there is no way I can lift 5x5 next workout" but don't get surprised if you do it with ease.

I would like to recommend not to change the program but I am guilty of adding arm work on Fridays becasue of two days rest period. It worked for me. Compared to what I was lifting before, my squat went up by 60 pounds, my bench 35 pounds, DL 45 pounds in 11 weeks. The numbers are approximate guesses since I have never tried my one rep max before or after. Before stronglift, I was doing a 3x8-12 upper/lower body (which is better for muscles but not for strength in my view). 5 minutes rest time for almost all lifts was too much so I quit in the 11the week. I reset Squat once in my 9th week. I reset Pendlay row once since I thought my form was not good.

Congratulations, after the program, you are an intermediate lifter so move to an intermediate program or a body-building program to gain muscles, depending on what your aim is.

[ball dont lie]

I did stronglifts twice with some time off in between for focusing on basketball. Its hard to lift 3 days a week and play basketball on off days. Or at least, it didn't work for me. Was completely off lifting and would rather keep my legs free.

For me I didn't gain much weight. In fact I was eating 4-5 times a day, huge meals, lifting three days a week, three days a week foam rolling and stretching to rehab in between. I gained 4-5 lbs. No matter what I did.

For hard gainers, small boned guys with high metabolism, probably focusing on higher rep would be better for muscle/weight gain.

I loved stronglifts though. I got MUCH stronger, especially for my weight.

[YardDog]

(12-24-2015 12:57 AM)ball dont lie Wrote:  

I did stronglifts twice with some time off in between for focusing on basketball. Its hard to lift 3 days a week and play basketball on off days. Or at least, it didn't work for me. Was completely off lifting and would rather keep my legs free.

For me I didn't gain much weight. In fact I was eating 4-5 times a day, huge meals, lifting three days a week, three days a week foam rolling and stretching to rehab in between. I gained 4-5 lbs. No matter what I did.

For hard gainers, small boned guys with high metabolism, probably focusing on higher rep would be better for muscle/weight gain.

I loved stronglifts though. I got MUCH stronger, especially for my weight.

Why do you say that? I'm not doubting, just interested as I somewhat fall into this category. Can you provide some evidence of this?

I put on 10 pounds in about 9 months with no fat gain (visible abs) on 5x5 but I'm open to new ideas.

Edit - I've been squatting 3x a week but recently I've had to skip some squat days. Week B, where it's 2x DL and 3x squats makes my legs so sore it wakes me up at night. Anyone have advice on getting legs to recover faster? I foam roll and stretch the fuck out of them, but it doesn't seem to work much. I eat loads of magnesium and other minerals too. I'm very hydrated. I don't know, I feel like I might have to cut back on squatting. Shit is affecting my sleep lol.

[NewMeta]

(12-24-2015 05:39 AM)YardDog Wrote:  

(12-24-2015 12:57 AM)ball dont lie Wrote:  

I did stronglifts twice with some time off in between for focusing on basketball. Its hard to lift 3 days a week and play basketball on off days. Or at least, it didn't work for me. Was completely off lifting and would rather keep my legs free.

For me I didn't gain much weight. In fact I was eating 4-5 times a day, huge meals, lifting three days a week, three days a week foam rolling and stretching to rehab in between. I gained 4-5 lbs. No matter what I did.

For hard gainers, small boned guys with high metabolism, probably focusing on higher rep would be better for muscle/weight gain.

I loved stronglifts though. I got MUCH stronger, especially for my weight.

Edit - I've been squatting 3x a week but recently I've had to skip some squat days. Week B, where it's 2x DL and 3x squats makes my legs so sore it wakes me up at night. Anyone have advice on getting legs to recover faster? I foam roll and stretch the fuck out of them, but it doesn't seem to work much. I eat loads of magnesium and other minerals too. I'm very hydrated. I don't know, I feel like I might have to cut back on squatting. Shit is affecting my sleep lol.

I do a lot of sports that require the use of my legs, doing 5x5 ruined me for them.

Stick with it till your beginner gains start reaching plateau then look into doing Wendler's 5 3 1. I went for this because I was still making strength gains on account of it training my CNS but I didn't have 5-7 day long recovery periods.

So when I'll be needing the use of my legs I just do the 5 3 1 on it's own and leave my day at that, if not I add in some extra assistance work. So far it's worked into my schedule nicely (6 months in or so).

[CanadianCocaCola]

I did the 5x5 workout last year and I'm just back to starting it again. I think it's great.

As others have already mentioned, proper form is key. Especially when you start getting deeper into the program.

I didn't really keep track of my results the first time around but will be noting them this time. I'll post them here once I'm about a month in and keep on doing that.

[PhDre]

(12-24-2015 05:39 AM)YardDog Wrote:  

(12-24-2015 12:57 AM)ball dont lie Wrote:  

I did stronglifts twice with some time off in between for focusing on basketball. Its hard to lift 3 days a week and play basketball on off days. Or at least, it didn't work for me. Was completely off lifting and would rather keep my legs free.

For me I didn't gain much weight. In fact I was eating 4-5 times a day, huge meals, lifting three days a week, three days a week foam rolling and stretching to rehab in between. I gained 4-5 lbs. No matter what I did.

For hard gainers, small boned guys with high metabolism, probably focusing on higher rep would be better for muscle/weight gain.

I loved stronglifts though. I got MUCH stronger, especially for my weight.

Why do you say that? I'm not doubting, just interested as I somewhat fall into this category. Can you provide some evidence of this?

I'm a small boned guy with high metabolism and I did Stronglifts 5x5. In my opinion, it doesn't work well for us because the weight jumps are too big.
As a small boned guy, your joints and tendons are far weaker than those of a guy with 8 inch wrists and they need time to catch up. If I would do it again, I would take 2.5 lbs jumps on all exercices except the deadlift where I would do 5lbs increases.

As for the muscle gains, I think that noone, big or small boned, fast or slow metabolism, gains upper body muscle on the program. The total volume for the upper body is just too small.

[PhDre]

(12-24-2015 05:39 AM)YardDog Wrote:  

Edit - I've been squatting 3x a week but recently I've had to skip some squat days. Week B, where it's 2x DL and 3x squats makes my legs so sore it wakes me up at night. Anyone have advice on getting legs to recover faster? I foam roll and stretch the fuck out of them, but it doesn't seem to work much. I eat loads of magnesium and other minerals too. I'm very hydrated. I don't know, I feel like I might have to cut back on squatting. Shit is affecting my sleep lol.

Testosterone will do that.
For the short period I was on T, my total and free T went to slightly above the maximum reference range values. This cut my recovery time roughly by a factor 3.
Not a way you want to go if your body still functions properly.

Also, in my experience, the better your liver functions, the faster your recovery.

[kinnikinik]

Been doing 5x5 for about 6 months with a few weeks off in Oct followed by a big de-load. Which I thought was actually a major positive as I felt that my form and sloppy and because of that I was worried about injury. Overall, I've been quite happy with the program. I'm much stronger now than I was and am younger now than I was a few years ago, without doubt. Also, the app is excellent.

That being said. I DO have a question. With the 5 standard lifts, I'm liking the changes to my body but, while my triceps are growing, I don't see much bicep growth. I'm considering adding Barbell Curls on one day. Any thoughts? Alternatives?

[Ostermann]

(12-29-2015 11:01 PM)kinnikinik Wrote:  

That being said. I DO have a question. With the 5 standard lifts, I'm liking the changes to my body but, while my triceps are growing, I don't see much bicep growth. I'm considering adding Barbell Curls on one day. Any thoughts? Alternatives?

I would try close grip chin-ups first. If you can do 8-10 or more, add weight and do them in sets of 4-6. But whatever you do, triceps is going to be much bigger than biceps for most people.

[Anabasis to Desta]

(12-29-2015 11:01 PM)kinnikinik Wrote:  

Been doing 5x5 for about 6 months with a few weeks off in Oct followed by a big de-load. Which I thought was actually a major positive as I felt that my form and sloppy and because of that I was worried about injury. Overall, I've been quite happy with the program. I'm much stronger now than I was and am younger now than I was a few years ago, without doubt. Also, the app is excellent.

That being said. I DO have a question. With the 5 standard lifts, I'm liking the changes to my body but, while my triceps are growing, I don't see much bicep growth. I'm considering adding Barbell Curls on one day. Any thoughts? Alternatives?

Do it.

I never did Stronglifts 5x5, but started out with Starting Strength which is pretty much the same program. After about half a year on that program my muscle imbalances became palpable. Ended up looking like a T-Rex with huge quads while my biceps remained the same size. I would fill out a medium slim fit V-neck except around the arms.

Mehdi looks down on bodybuilding routines and admits he's been doing his Stronglifts routine with no modification for years. This is what he looks like ...



Not a bad physique by any means but his arms are tiny. He points out that BB rows are sufficient for back development which is clearly not the case. His lats are non-existent due to the lack of vertical pulling exercises like Lat pulldowns which gives him that blocky look. His glutes and quads are huge while his hamstrings are lagging.

Instead of barbell curls do 3 sets of hammer curls and 3 sets of 45 degree incline dumbell supinated grip curls so you hit each bicep head separately. Throw in some pullups/lat pulldowns twice a week. I'd also add facepulls to the routine to bring out your rear delts but most importantly help with your posture which tends to get worse on 5x5 programs.

Also if you tend to be on the taller side with a thin, wire like physique with long limbs and small joints ... i wouldn't do a traditional strength routine like 5x5. Guys with naturally broad shoulders, shorter limbs and thicker wrist sizes however have done very well on this program.

[Thomas the Rhymer]

(12-29-2015 11:01 PM)kinnikinik Wrote:  

That being said. I DO have a question. With the 5 standard lifts, I'm liking the changes to my body but, while my triceps are growing, I don't see much bicep growth. I'm considering adding Barbell Curls on one day. Any thoughts? Alternatives?

I had the same problem. And just like you are thinking, I did in fact add some curls for the girls.

I was quiet disappointed, I didn't get that much arm development.

I eventually switched to reverse curls and hammer curls, using dumbbells. This gave me much better results. (I just noticed that Anabasis made a post just before me where he gives the same advice.)

[Khan]

(12-30-2015 10:15 AM)Anabasis to Desta Wrote:  

Ended up looking like a T-Rex with huge quads while my biceps remained the same size. I would fill out a medium slim fit V-neck except around the arms.

The same thing is currently happening to me. My situation is somewhat worse as I have genetically strong quads, so my arms look like toothpicks compared to my thighs. That's the problem with Stronglifts, it's a great beginners program but it has no direct arm work.

By the way, did anyone try Madcow's 5x5?

http://stronglifts.com/madcow-5x5-training-programs/

I'm starting a 7-month cut from January and I intended to try out this routine. It's similar to Stronglifts, but it has ramped up sets and a lighter squat day on Wednesday.

[WanderingSoul]

I did MadCow after Starting Strength. It took me to a 225x5 bench, 365x3 squat and 365x5 deadlift after the first cycle.

Though, I'm not sure it'll be a good choice while cutting because it's a pretty aggressive strength program.

For those of you who are getting huge legs but not so big upper bodies, check out Lyle McDoanlds generic bulking program.

[RexImperator]

Squats are the overall strength/mass builder. They don't just add size in quads/ass but they thicken your torso/core as well.

Now, if you increase the size of what muscles you do have with a full body routine, legs are going to grow faster since they are already larger. Kind of like the expansion of the universe, the larger the cross-section (distance between galaxies), the more muscle fibers there are (the more space there is) to expand if it all expands at the same rate.

[Anabasis to Desta]

I'd like to add to my previous post.

For any of you who want a strength routine that won't have you squatting 3x a week while giving you that T-Rex look, I recommend Greyskull LP with arm plug-in. The goal is to deadlift, squat and bench your own bodyweight in a 2:1.5:1 ratio respectively for 3 reps. Once reach get that level of strength, switch to a bodybuilding program of your choice. Preferably one that will have you hit each body part twice a week instead of just once.

http://www.powerliftingtowin.com/greyskull-lp/

Greyskull LP is technically a Powerlifting program. But what i like about it is that you get to bench 3 times a week, squat twice a week and deadlift only once a week. As it should be. The Squat Nazis on the bodybuilding forums might try to crucify me for recommending this but i just see no utility in squatting that often. Especially if all you lift for is for aesthetics like most of us.

[RexImperator]

That program is generally well-regarded on the Starting Strength forums. It has some auto-regulation built in with the AMRAP sets which is nice.

[kinnikinik]

(12-30-2015 10:15 AM)Anabasis to Desta Wrote:  

Do it.
...

Instead of barbell curls do 3 sets of hammer curls and 3 sets of 45 degree incline dumbell supinated grip curls so you hit each bicep head separately. Throw in some pullups/lat pulldowns twice a week. I'd also add facepulls to the routine to bring out your rear delts but most importantly help with your posture which tends to get worse on 5x5 programs.

Also if you tend to be on the taller side with a thin, wire like physique with long limbs and small joints ... i wouldn't do a traditional strength routine like 5x5. Guys with naturally broad shoulders, shorter limbs and thicker wrist sizes however have done very well on this program.

Excellent advice. Thanks All. I'll be adding in:
Close grip pullups
Hammer curls
45 degree incline Dumbell supinated grip curls (had to look up what the hell THAT was!)
Facepulls (cool name!)

I'm 6'1" with short arms and thick legs and torso.

Since I'll be cutting for the next couple months, I'm gonna plateau myself at 225 on squats, but keep pushing on bench, deadlift and OP.

[kinnikinik]

One more related question on this thread, Does it make any sense that I would have trouble sleeping on nights after 5x5 workouts? Seems to be developing into a pattern.

And a random question: Has anyone ever heard of an allergy to working out? My 14 year old son seems to break out in hives every time we go to the gym lately. It doesn't seem to be food related, nor environmental. The only common trait is the gym... Ideas?

[Anabasis to Desta]

^ How old are you?

My Dad had the exact same problem. I got him into strength training 2 years ago and remember him telling me that he's been having trouble sleeping after heavy lifting sessions.

He usually lifted evenings after work and dinner. You know that euphoric feeling you get after a hard lifting session? Alert as fuck and feeling like a champion? Having to go to sleep just 2 hours later while your energy levels are still up might have something to do with it. When he switched to working out in the morning before work the sleep problems went away.

I have no scientific evidence. Just pure broscience and speculation on my part but it's worth a try of you tend to work out later during the day.