[Moma]

(09-19-2011 01:51 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Don't know if you're here already, but I'd suggest you avoid settling down in the US. The situation is worse here than anywhere in Western Europe, and that isn't even debatable.

There is more to life than moving to a country for hot women. And not all of the US is like that.

The US is like a continent. I lived in Miami and then I visited Boston. The lizards in Miami shat all over the Boston ones. Yet, it's the same country.

Thus, it's inaccurate to rope the entire US based on the bloated reptiles inhabiting some of the cities.

[Amour Fou]

Do you guys think these commentaries also apply to Scotland? I've been there in my pre-sarging era and fell in love with Edingburgh, and I liked their accent. I think it's the only place in the UK that I could actually spend some time and return for a longer stay.

I overall had a better impression of scottish girls, but didn't interact much with them.

[Mace]

Apart from obesity, there are other significant differences between America and Europe (excluding the UK):

- The lack of a man-hating culture. European feminism is about women having equal rights and opportunities as men (something we all agree with). There's none of that Third Wave man-hating BS. This manifests itself in pickup. European women take more kindly to compliments on their appearance. Many American women will scowl and walk away ("don't objectify me!"). Direct day game that works there will get you blown out quickly here.

- Healthy gender relations. In America, the default assumption of a random man is that he's a creep, a potential serial killer and rapist, and you have to go out of your way to prove you're normal. In Europe the default perception is neutral, and if you're a foreigner net positive. In Europe - esspecially EE - you can be open and upfront about your intentions as a man. In North America you're a creep.

- There is less of a douchebag/frat boy presence because there is a more intellectual/less jock culture there. European women dig the stylish, cultured well-mannered gentleman. Many are outright repelled by the loud musclehead jocks that are popular over here.

- You can get away with behaviour that would be construed as 'beta" over here. I was in Amsterdam recently and was blown away by the public displays of affection and handholding couples walking. It's rare to see a couple holding hands in North America - they're put off by men who are overly romantic or affectionate.

In Spain I watched as three Italian pretty boys tried to pick up a few American tourist chicks from my hostel. The American girls were openly repulsed by their forwardness. The mismash brought about by cultural differences was tragically hilarious to observe.

Interesting to note that American guys clean up with foreign girls, but foreign guys have huge problems with American lizards.

[Excelsior]

(09-19-2011 02:55 PM)Moma Wrote:  

There is more to life than moving to a country for hot women. And not all of the US is like that.

It is fair to say that there are other good reasons for coming to the US that do not involve women. That being said, he is a guy who has made it clear that extra weight on women is unattractive to him. Meanwhile, he has migrated to the fattest nation in the developed world, one with an obesity rate close to three times greater than that of his home country.

Doesn't sound like a good recipe to me, so I pointed that out. If you don't like fatties, the USA isn't the greatest place to be.

Quote:

Thus, it's inaccurate to rope the entire US based on the bloated reptiles inhabiting some of the cities.

Sure, the USA is a big place. The state of Colorado has an obesity rate of about 19.8%, which puts it on par with a couple of European nations.
That being said, Colorado is the only state in this country under 20%.

The United States is dealing with an obesity epidemic more severe than that of any developed nation on Earth. This epidemic is touching the entire country, which is how the USA has managed to move so far ahead of the rest of the world (outside of Kuwait and nations of the Pacific rim, which are the only fatter countries) in the fattie sweepstakes. "Bloated reptiles" do not frequent just "some cities" in the US-they are almost everywhere. Area that are relatively free of such creatures in the US are the exception here, not the rule, which is why they get hyped up. They are the norm in most of Europe, Asia and Latin America.

You are free to try and cherry pick all you like(I almost admire the undying optimism), but the general trend (hungry hungry hippos) remains what it is. The USA is a fat country.

[Geronimo]

"In America, the default assumption of a random man is that he's a creep, a potential serial killer and rapist, and you have to go out of your way to prove you're normal. In Europe the default perception is neutral, and if you're a foreigner net positive."

What do you mean with this? WE girls generally aren't into foreigners (especially immigrants) of course if you have game you can get them, if a WE girl dates a foreign guy, it's mostly going to be from the 'cool' countries that are hyped up in the media, australia, france, etc. I think the US (liberal cities) are much more open to things like that.

[Mace]

(09-19-2011 05:44 PM)Geronimo Wrote:  

"In America, the default assumption of a random man is that he's a creep, a potential serial killer and rapist, and you have to go out of your way to prove you're normal. In Europe the default perception is neutral, and if you're a foreigner net positive."

What do you mean with this? WE girls generally aren't into foreigners (especially immigrants) of course if you have game you can get them, if a WE girl dates a foreign guy, it's mostly going to be from the 'cool' countries that are hyped up in the media, australia, france, etc. I think the US (liberal cities) are much more open to things like that.

Yes, I meant Anglo/American guys. And ethnic minorities from Anglosphere will do well, provided they're assimilated not FOB. Many have never encountered an Indian guy with an American accent for example so it messes with their reality for a bit - there's an added exoticism there.

[thegmanifesto]

"Sure, the USA is a big place. The state of Colorado has an obesity rate of about 19.8%, which puts it on par with a couple of European nations.
That being said, Colorado is the only state in this country under 20%. "

These "obesity rates" don't really seem to correlate with "good places to swoop" either.

Colorado doesn't make my US short list.

Or medium list (I don't have a long list).

I think DC is one of the better cities on obesity rates and we all know how good that place is.

[iknowexactly]

Whale-ism is probably more [negatively] correlated with socio-economic status than country or state.

I know when I visited a friend whose job was video-taping Harvard classes the chicks were way, way hotter than American average.

I thought to myself, "There must be a photo required with applications here" and I think there is. There was like one token homely girl who was probably so freaking smart they couldn't rationalize not letting her in.

[Moma]

(09-20-2011 12:38 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Whale-ism is probably more [negatively] correlated with socio-economic status than country or state.

I know when I visited a friend whose job was video-taping Harvard classes the chicks were way, way hotter than American average.

I thought to myself, "There must be a photo required with applications here" and I think there is. There was like one token homely girl who was probably so freaking smart they couldn't rationalize not letting her in.

It is. And all this moaning about US, I don't think is true. For instance, my compadres in Florida NEVER complain about the low quality of lizards nor my peeps in Boston.

To all the members on the forum, all over the United States, do you see overweight women AS A MAJORITY in every single club or lounge you go to?

When I was in Miami, I saw nothing but dimes in the clubs. When I did encounter a fatty, I merely ignored her.

But if you stay in the same area all the time and you happen to be in a fat infested area, of course, you are going to colour your whole experience of the entire country based on the small snapshot you have.

Here is another thing that US has: Accessible diversity.

I never knew what the big hype about latinas was until I came to North America. Why? Because there aren't that many in UK (can't speak about the entire Europe).

The mixes that you get from America are very special. Very pretty black lizards. Pretty white lizards. Pretty latin lizards. Pretty asian lizards. Combo lizards mixed with native blood, from Europe, from Latin America and well fed.

Asian lizards from California shyt all over Toronto ones (and trust me, Toronto is TEEMING with Asian lizards).

Start mingling with people who have money and you'll see shapely lizards.

There is a direct correlation these days with socio economic status and shape. Back in the days, it used to be the rich that were heavy (having food was associated with wealth) and it was the poor that used be underfed (peasants who subsisted on cheap foods such as vegetables etc).

Nowadays, the cheap food is fattening (and the fat these days is not a good fat, see a third world fat person and compare them to a North American fat person, it's totally different), and thus the poor are fat and the rich are slim.

[pitt]

I thought the discussion was about who were the easiest (american or western european girls). I truly dont care about that obesity problem because 95% of the time, i think that obesity shit is just exageratted.

[SVK]

(09-20-2011 12:38 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Whale-ism is probably more [negatively] correlated with socio-economic status than country or state.

I know when I visited a friend whose job was video-taping Harvard classes the chicks were way, way hotter than American average.

I thought to myself, "There must be a photo required with applications here" and I think there is. There was like one token homely girl who was probably so freaking smart they couldn't rationalize not letting her in.

Yes exactly. There are geographical differences (e.g. white west coast girls are on average more slender than white midwest girls) , but socio-economic status is the biggest factor. I live in Scottsdale, Arizona, a relatively affluent neighborhood, and when I go out at night 90% chicks are actually pretty hot, fatties are quite rare. But just a few miles away in the suburbs it's a sea of whales in flip flops.
And not only nightlife, but daytime places like malls as well. Hotness of women is proportional to the affluence of the nighborhood.

[Aliblahba]

(09-19-2011 05:09 AM)sheesh Wrote:  

(09-19-2011 03:24 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

(09-19-2011 01:10 AM)Geronimo Wrote:  

Well the point I was trying to make that was WE women (excluding spain/portugal) are no different when it comes to behavior to American girls. The only difference might be that Am girls may be more fatter because in Europe they are all active due to public transport options etc.

For me the ROI was much lower in WE women compared to American girls. I talked to enough of them in London to not travel to Greece, Spain, France, ect. Some were just downright arrogant. Like mycleverid stated, listening to how fucked up America is and how to fix it gets old. Especially from a 20 y.o.

Seems to be a typical Western (continental) European problem. People go out and end up talking about pseudointellectual shit the whole evening because they can't relax and just have fun for an evening.

I guess not knowing how to "small talk" and flirt makes a lot of people tense and nervous.
Happens a lot in Germany.

Do any of you Euro pro's know how to counter this? Feel free to start another thread. This became a big sticking point when I was in Europe.

[Ohiogang]

(09-20-2011 12:38 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Whale-ism is probably more [negatively] correlated with socio-economic status than country or state.

I know when I visited a friend whose job was video-taping Harvard classes the chicks were way, way hotter than American average.

I thought to myself, "There must be a photo required with applications here" and I think there is. There was like one token homely girl who was probably so freaking smart they couldn't rationalize not letting her in.

I thought Harvard wasn't known for having hot girls?

[Basil Ransom]

The US is an improvement over the UK, and no other European country. In Europe generally, I was surprised to see such herb-ish guys with attractive women. It does seem like monogamy is much more common there, and is actually taken seriously. Real monogamy + skinny population = herbs dating cute girls.

Mace suggested that obesity is fueling the gym craze in America. Ironic, and possibly true.

(09-20-2011 03:09 PM)SVK Wrote:  

There are geographical differences (e.g. white west coast girls are on average more slender than white midwest girls) , but socio-economic status is the biggest factor. I live in Scottsdale, Arizona, a relatively affluent neighborhood, and when I go out at night 90% chicks are actually pretty hot, fatties are quite rare. But just a few miles away in the suburbs it's a sea of whales in flip flops.
And not only nightlife, but daytime places like malls as well. Hotness of women is proportional to the affluence of the nighborhood.

Bingo. I live in LA, and the correlation between geographic snob factor and obesity is very negative. The trendier an area, the hotter and thinner the girls. They aren't necessarily rich, but hot girls *always* want to be where the party is. When they aren't there, they start slipping and getting sloppy. To truly be free of fatties, it must have a 1 mile fattie free radius, else the fatties will swoop in like vultures at night.

Hell, in college in the library, the hot chicks always sat at the center, near the main flow of traffic and the library cafe, while the uglier girls would sit at the quiet outskirts.

[1bliss]

(09-19-2011 02:55 PM)Moma Wrote:  

(09-19-2011 01:51 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Don't know if you're here already, but I'd suggest you avoid settling down in the US. The situation is worse here than anywhere in Western Europe, and that isn't even debatable.

There is more to life than moving to a country for hot women. And not all of the US is like that.

The US is like a continent. I lived in Miami and then I visited Boston. The lizards in Miami shat all over the Boston ones. Yet, it's the same country.

Thus, it's inaccurate to rope the entire US based on the bloated reptiles inhabiting some of the cities.

I agree with this. Moving and living in a country/city based on the women is beyond me. And saying one can't settle down in the USA is very vague. That's like saying an individual shouldn't visit Europe in general. The US is massive, and almost every state has its own culture and its own characteristics.

As much as I love foreign women who are the ideal wives, I personally would still live in NYC, Miami or Los Angeles over 99% of the other cities in the world. You can't forget, NYC for example is so multicultural. Every girl you meet, you gotta ask her where she's from and what her background is. There is wifey material everywhere in the world including the USA, and american cities in my opinion just seem to offer much much more on top of that than any other cities in the world. They are just more advanced, more developed.

[Mighty Mouse]

(09-20-2011 04:56 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

In Europe generally, I was surprised to see such herb-ish guys with attractive women. It does seem like monogamy is much more common there, and is actually taken seriously. Real monogamy + skinny population = herbs dating cute girls.

?

Especially northern Euro women are strict, often VERY strict when it comes to a man's looks/height.

However, a man who's dressed like a herb, wears glasses, and has a shitty haircut, can still have a model face and be 6ft3. I work together with such a guy. Women love him. Genetics beat swagger.

Please specify where exactly you have been.

[Excelsior]

(09-20-2011 10:37 AM)Moma Wrote:  

It is. And all this moaning about US, I don't think is true. For instance, my compadres in Florida NEVER complain about the low quality of lizards nor my peeps in Boston.

To all the members on the forum, all over the United States, do you see overweight women AS A MAJORITY in every single club or lounge you go to?

When I was in Miami, I saw nothing but dimes in the clubs. When I did encounter a fatty, I merely ignored her.

But if you stay in the same area all the time and you happen to be in a fat infested area, of course, you are going to colour your whole experience of the entire country based on the small snapshot you have.

(09-20-2011 04:56 PM)1bliss Wrote:  

I agree with this. Moving and living in a country/city based on the women is beyond me. And saying one can't settle down in the USA is very vague. That's like saying an individual shouldn't visit Europe in general. The US is massive, and almost every state has its own culture and its own characteristics.

As much as I love foreign women who are the ideal wives, I personally would still live in NYC, Miami or Los Angeles over 99% of the other cities in the world. You can't forget, NYC for example is so multicultural. Every girl you meet, you gotta ask her where she's from and what her background is. There is wifey material everywhere in the world including the USA, and american cities in my opinion just seem to offer much much more on top of that than any other cities in the world. They are just more advanced, more developed.

To each their own.

(09-20-2011 04:35 PM)Ohiogang Wrote:  

(09-20-2011 12:38 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Whale-ism is probably more [negatively] correlated with socio-economic status than country or state.

I know when I visited a friend whose job was video-taping Harvard classes the chicks were way, way hotter than American average.

I thought to myself, "There must be a photo required with applications here" and I think there is. There was like one token homely girl who was probably so freaking smart they couldn't rationalize not letting her in.

I thought Harvard wasn't known for having hot girls?

It isn't. The Ivy League is generally a very poor place for game, and the quality of women is usually well below what you find at typical state schools. Of course, there is some variation (ex: Some will argue that Yale girls are hotter than Dartmouth chicks, Columbia chicks hotter than Cornellians, etc.), but this rule generally holds. The girls here are also not not very easy to game, especially if you look a certain way.

Don't get me wrong, there are hot girls at these schools. The problem is that a) the hottest girl at Penn/Cornell/Harvard/etc is usually not as hot as the top tier at other schools, b) these hot girls are a lower percentage of the population than at other schools and c) these few hot girls are very hard to get to due to a combination of their relative scarcity within their college environments, their smarts, and their socio-economic status (read: they are almost uniformly solid upper-middle class or above-socio-economic diversity is not that common at many Ivies, though some, like Harvard, do it slightly better than others).

I should especially focus on the class argument, because that is huge. These girls aren't going to fuck with just anybody. They have plans, and they live in a very different world than what you and I are likely used to. In this world, "facetime" is god, and perception is everything. They will not link up with men below their station, even casually.

If you are a black male (as I understand Moma is) and you a) did not attend a prep school/elite private school, b) don't come from a household income in the top 2% or higher and c) haven't been exposed to this society for much of your early life (enough to seamlessly blend into it), expect an uphill battle. Girls here will avoid you even if they like you.
Exceptions to this rule usually meet at least one (usually more) of the criteria above or have absolutely air-tight game (not just good, I'm talking elite-only 1-2 guys I've seen here have this, and even they complain of difficulty) and/or status (example: all-conference linebacker or something).

I am currently an Ivy Leaguer...I should know all of this. Don't want to de-rail this thread any further, so if you want more in-depth detail about dating in the Ivies you can check this thread. I wrote all you need to know in there.

I challenge anyone who disagrees with me to come to one of these schools and live the life of a normal student. Give him a few months here and he'll see things my way.

If you want meet/date/bang hot young college chicks, go to The College of Charleston, James Madison, Villanova, UC-Santa Barbara, Chico State, ASU or NYU (with its 70-30 male/female ratio). If you're a black or hispanic guy, pull a MiXX and head up to schools out in the northern American plains(North Dakota State, South Dakota State, UND, USD, Bemidji State, etc) where you might just get raped.

Ivies should be your second to last choices, coming just before engineering schools like MIT or Caltech, and maybe West Point (sausagefest).

[Ohiogang]

Athlone what if your brown but you kind of look like this guy

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=Mrad+Moua...5&hovw=183

I understand these girls would be snobbish, somewhat racist, and self-absorbed, but who is generally most successful with these types of women? (The hot ivy league ones), assuming you are not white.

[Clockwork_Orange]

Its always surprise me how American culture and also partially anglosphere culture differs so much from other cultures of the world, people in the US (without the intention to offend anybody here) can be sometimes so damn shallow and annoying.

[iknowexactly]

(09-20-2011 06:12 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

I thought Harvard wasn't known for having hot girls?
...

These girls aren't going to fuck with just anybody.

Oh, I agree-- they're hard to get-- it's like they're from a different planet--everyone they know has beach houses, elite jobs in elite institutions, it's a world you just don't hear about because you never were, and never will be invited. The screening starts, literally, in nursery schools. It' s not just "do YOU go to Harvard?", it's "Where did your Parents go to school?"

. I just think they looked good. No chance of working class me/ anyone not preppy getting them. You're spot on there. Different gene pool with no desire to mix.

[amity]

(09-20-2011 03:15 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

(09-19-2011 05:09 AM)sheesh Wrote:  

(09-19-2011 03:24 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

(09-19-2011 01:10 AM)Geronimo Wrote:  

Well the point I was trying to make that was WE women (excluding spain/portugal) are no different when it comes to behavior to American girls. The only difference might be that Am girls may be more fatter because in Europe they are all active due to public transport options etc.

For me the ROI was much lower in WE women compared to American girls. I talked to enough of them in London to not travel to Greece, Spain, France, ect. Some were just downright arrogant. Like mycleverid stated, listening to how fucked up America is and how to fix it gets old. Especially from a 20 y.o.

Seems to be a typical Western (continental) European problem. People go out and end up talking about pseudointellectual shit the whole evening because they can't relax and just have fun for an evening.

I guess not knowing how to "small talk" and flirt makes a lot of people tense and nervous.
Happens a lot in Germany.

Do any of you Euro pro's know how to counter this? Feel free to start another thread. This became a big sticking point when I was in Europe.

i'm far from a euro-pro, but how i got around this was gaming at 'events' like gigs or poetry slams(popular in germany), where you still have alcohol but there's something common for you to chat about, so it's more natural - having a german social circle can help here, but i've also had success rolling solo in these kind of environments, chatting to several people in the venue to get myself in a social mood in the earlier stages, then focussing more on the frauleins as the night progresses - SNLs are not so common in these circumstances i find, so the follow-up via email/online helps to build attraction and makes closing the deal more likely next time you meet

[Kish]

(09-20-2011 06:12 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

If you are a black male (as I understand Moma is) and you a) did not attend a prep school/elite private school, b) don't come from a household income in the top 2% or higher and c) haven't been exposed to this society for much of your early life (enough to seamlessly blend into it), expect an uphill battle. Girls here will avoid you even if they like you.

I've experienced this in DC.

[Basil Ransom]

(09-20-2011 06:12 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

I challenge anyone who disagrees with me to come to one of these schools and live the life of a normal student. Give him a few months here and he'll see things my way.

I lived the life. I don't see it your way. I'm living in LA and still not getting the quality I got in college, despite my school's supposed surfeit of ugly girls.

I'm white and upper middle class, but not a WASP. The girls definitely do respond to game, they aren't some superior form of being. But the hottest ones often fall into strictly circumscribed social circles: Greek life, sports teams, even a capella groups. If you get into these social circles, or you have a prior reputation, you will have a huge advantage, not to mention access to parties and such. It can be very tribal.

If you're emotionally bothered by people richer than you, sure you may have trouble. But I honestly didn't find people that judgmental about it. If you're in the social circle, it's not really going to matter much.

I used to monitor a campus gossip site, and money rarely came up. If money mattered in who girls banged, it'd be evident there. I did see one long discussion on people's attitudes towards money. And there was a thread or two about the billionaires on campus. But as far as banging girls, it wasn't really a factor. Connections, status, game, looks, style was the currency. As you wrote in another thread, young girls aren't interested in relationships. They want someone for *right now.* And that's why money didn't matter much. I can't really recall ever being asked questions probing at my wealth. It was always, "what frat are you in?" "Who do you live with?" "Where are you from?" etc.

The one thing I did notice was that the rich kids were way more likely to be cool. My theory is that if you're rich and very intelligent, you end up going to elementary and high schools where people of your intelligence are more common, so you'll be more socially well adjusted. These are the kids who are fairly smart, and they partied in high school. Or you're rich but not very intelligent, and you took all the steps necessary to ensure you'd get in.

The less formal her circle is, the easier it is to mack her if you're not in it. You could be talking to a hottie in class, and she would have this wall that just wouldn't be there if you met her at an intimate house party. These chicks walk around the school thinking they and their 150 friends are the shit, and every other guy is assumed to be a loser, unless they'd heard of him before. And there are lots of losers at these schools. But I'm not sure it'd be different at say, a fratty Southern school.

The times I did have success with girls in top sororities were either the girl was a little nutty, not active in her sorority, or was turned on for the moment, but wouldn't dream of talking to me afterwards. Even the girls who claimed to have grown out of their sororities would seethe with anger if, as I would, wrongly guess they were in a merely mid-tier sorority. On the other hand, I could pick out two comparable guys with vastly different results, because of their different sets of friends.

If you are cool, then you'd probably make it into upper middle frats, which still provide a huge advantage. To get into the top shelf frats, you might have to be a member of a specific sports team, come from serious riches or have legit pre-college connections to a frat brother.

[Dash Global]

European girls seem to put out much more than american chicks imo

I have yet to see an american girl getting fucked in a hostel dorm but ive seen plenty of Scandinavia bitches getting it in!

Freaks

Then meet two Danish girls that were having a contest to see who could fuck the most guys on their trip. I was like wtf lol

[portofmanteau]

(09-21-2011 07:31 AM)amity Wrote:  

(09-20-2011 03:15 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

(09-19-2011 05:09 AM)sheesh Wrote:  

(09-19-2011 03:24 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

(09-19-2011 01:10 AM)Geronimo Wrote:  

Well the point I was trying to make that was WE women (excluding spain/portugal) are no different when it comes to behavior to American girls. The only difference might be that Am girls may be more fatter because in Europe they are all active due to public transport options etc.

For me the ROI was much lower in WE women compared to American girls. I talked to enough of them in London to not travel to Greece, Spain, France, ect. Some were just downright arrogant. Like mycleverid stated, listening to how fucked up America is and how to fix it gets old. Especially from a 20 y.o.

Seems to be a typical Western (continental) European problem. People go out and end up talking about pseudointellectual shit the whole evening because they can't relax and just have fun for an evening.

I guess not knowing how to "small talk" and flirt makes a lot of people tense and nervous.
Happens a lot in Germany.

Do any of you Euro pro's know how to counter this? Feel free to start another thread. This became a big sticking point when I was in Europe.

i'm far from a euro-pro, but how i got around this was gaming at 'events' like gigs or poetry slams(popular in germany), where you still have alcohol but there's something common for you to chat about, so it's more natural - having a german social circle can help here, but i've also had success rolling solo in these kind of environments, chatting to several people in the venue to get myself in a social mood in the earlier stages, then focussing more on the frauleins as the night progresses - SNLs are not so common in these circumstances i find, so the follow-up via email/online helps to build attraction and makes closing the deal more likely next time you meet

Germans as a whole are obsessed with the "Freundeskreis" (lifelong tight-knit circle of friends) concept and are relatively cold to newcomers rolling in to have a good time and be social, excluding a few cities, like Berlin, and when they're on vacation outside of Germany. I don't have much experience with the rest of northern Europe but I imagine it is similar... I think southern europe is significantly different, excluding black holes like Catalunya - Spanish, southern French, southern Italian, Portuguese society is far more open to shooting the shit with strangers. Here in Porto strangers regularly joke around with each other just passing each other on the street.