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Job offer dilemma
#1

Job offer dilemma

I've been offered a job with my current company in the Southwest market and I currently live in the Mountain West. The position would raise my base salary but my total compensation (salary + bonus) would probably remain the same. My company will not offer a dime of relocation (my VP tried) and I would have a lease break fee of over 4k. On top of this, the cost of living in the metro area I'd move to is substantially higher. You may be asking why I'm even considering this and the answer is that my current position will probably be eliminated soon( restructuring) and I really love my job and company. Not sure I love it enough to shell out a self relo though.

So, with the lease break of 4k and lets say 2k to move into a new place we're talking some coin here! The bright side is that I'm being recruited for a higher paying job here with tremendous opportunity, but I have not had an offer yet. The clock is ticking and I need to decide. Thus, I throw this out to my brothers on the forum as I knowest thy wisdom!

Thanks
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#2

Job offer dilemma

1) How much do you get for severance?
2) How in demand are your job skills? Can you easily find a new job within 3 months of heavy searching in the area you currently live in?
3) What are the cost trade offs, is it cheaper to maintain the same lifestyle in the new area?
4) Do you think you would like living in the new area?
5) Have you thought of maybe using this very explainable job loss to take some time to travel?

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone

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#3

Job offer dilemma

6) When do you have to make a final decision?
7) How far along are you in the interview process for the new job?
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#4

Job offer dilemma

1. No word on severance package yet. I'm assuming 1-3 months salary plus I'll receive my quarterly bonus, which would all easily get me through the year by itself.

2. My skill set for the particular sales I'm in is in high demand and I'm in one of the best job markets in the country. High growth, employment and housing market here. Plus I live 15 minutes from 4 major ski resorts and have a great condo here. It's a perfect setup for game and career (if I can get this figd out) and I love the life of hiking, fishing, biking in the mountains the same day I can be in the city meeting hot women. I should be able to find a job within 3 months no problem.

3. It's much higher COL in the metro area I'd have to move to. The condo I'm in here would double there. I was shocked. Housing is going through the roof there.

4. It's hot in the Southwest. Ive always lived in the Mountain West or Pacific Northwest so I just don't know if I'd like it. I like visiting there in the winter when it's 66 degrees and it's loaded with hot women from the local universities and just in general. Game would prob be great down there, but it is for me up here as well. I just don't know for sure. I hate super hot weather though.

5. Travel is a thought provoking idea. I'd love to get out of the country for a while and meet some EE women and just visit other countries. This is a definite possibility. Thanks for the inspiration on that. It also depends on this other possible job offer.

6. The decision needs to happen by mid August.

7. I've finished all interviews/presentaitions and am awaiting word. It's a great position from all I've seen this far with tremendous opportunities.
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#5

Job offer dilemma

Points 1 - 7 make it clear to me that you want to stay in your current location. If all of your points are accurate, don't finance a relocation (it's never a good sign when they won't pay for it). Let them lay you off with severance and grab a new job.
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#6

Job offer dilemma

You may know this already, but just in case someone else stumbles across this thread, these are some of the lessons I have learned.

I have recently done a complete overhaul of my career to stay in my current location, so I'd add a couple things:

1. Do not indicate to your current company that you are not going to relocate or stay with them. Even if you have already made up your mind. Just act natural. Make it sound like you are working, even if you aren't. Delay as long as you can until you have everything in order. If you like your company and boss, there will be a time to tell them honestly what is going on. Just wait. They won't be as nice as you thought they were when you tell them you're out.

2. Check your company policy on Vacation/ PTO that is owed to you. If you put in your 2 weeks, many times it will cause you to forfeit this financial benefit you have earned. If you are in good standing, and have some days, just take all your vacation. If it is PTO, they usually can't ask why, even if your sales manager is not happy about it or suspects something is up. If anything, just tell your HR department it is for family reasons and give no detail. I am sure it would be looked at poorly if they fired a man who needed to take some personal days...

3. Always have an offer in writing from a new company before making any communication to your current company. If you get terminated, you won't get a severance as if your position was eliminated. Also, many companies want you to start on the 1st or 15th. Sounds good. However, if you put in notice on the 15th thinking you will work and be paid through that pay period, your manager may say not to bother and you lose 2 weeks of money you may have budgeted to use for bills/travel (unless you are under a contract of some sort, but I am speaking of at-will employment states).

4. Depending on how your commissions and/or salary are paid (2nd Friday/ End of month), choose to put in your notice so you get the most income out of that time. Often, if you put in a 2 weeks notice, not only will you be let go at the end of a pay period/ following Friday-Monday (or immediately!) but there is no need to work for dollars you will not receive. Chances are you will leave some money on the table, but if you plan ahead you can minimize your loss.

5. Be mindful of your health insurance. If you do want to travel after receiving your written offer from the new company, I would suggest you put in your two weeks soon after the 1st of the month, if possible. You may not receive as much income if you are terminated immediately, but your health insurance will usually be covered through the end of the month inclusive of the duration of your employment because it has already been paid. So even if you get let go, you can still travel and be covered in case of injury, illness, etc., until the 1st of the next month. This also gives you some time to make one last visit to your GP/FM doctor, dentist, etc., so you don't have to use COBRA between the jump (unless you have small children that you are supporting).

6. I am going to say this one more time, because it is the most important lesson to be learned... a VERBAL OFFER is not an offer. Until you get a WRITTEN OFFER, you have exactly jack shit and no guarantee of employment. Even if a hiring manager says the job is yours, it may take days to know for sure.

Good Luck
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#7

Job offer dilemma

The support offered here reminds me of why I am such a fan of this forum. When it gets serious, guys pitch in and no one is fucking around because it sounds like a serious situation. Of course once the OP decides and he is at peace with it all, expect a bunch of dick pics on this thread.

Slight tangent, but the thread with the whore and the pua thing, was just a contained thread of nonsense and fuck around. Lessons were in there but I know I just wanted to have some fun.

But threads like these make me remind me of how powerful the collective experience of the community is and how people jump in to share knowledge and perspective.

Gustavus Adolphus dropped some serious knowledge on covering your ass on the way out.

Best of luck OP, I am sure you will make the right choice.

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone

Great RVF Comments | Where Evil Resides | How to upload, etc. | New Members Read This 1 | New Members Read This 2
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#8

Job offer dilemma

Is there any negotiating on the 4k? From my experience, at least where I'm at, if they get a new tenant they typically can't also charge you, they can't "double up" in essence. Meaning they'd have to either leave it unrented or end up returning a portion of the 4k if they got a new tenant. I've successfully negotiated early termination of leases a couple time. If you tell then your job situation they may be sympathetic.

Americans are dreamers too
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#9

Job offer dilemma

Quote: (07-31-2015 08:50 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Points 1 - 7 make it clear to me that you want to stay in your current location. If all of your points are accurate, don't finance a relocation (it's never a good sign when they won't pay for it). Let them lay you off with severance and grab a new job.


I concur and am leaning toward the severance and a new career. Forking over close to 6k for a relo is just too much even though I love my current position. If I was out of my lease and could weasel some sort of deal out of my condo (these guys won't budge), I could see a path toward the move. I'm all for exploring a new area and expanding horizons, but I've never paid a dime (in the past) to move for a company I'm currently with and this just seems ridiculous. Most Fortune 500 companies seem to have gotten out of the "pay for relocation" business since 2008 unless it's a VP level position and I've always raised an eyebrow at anyone who paid for their own. I would, however, leave my current location if the pay was just so outstanding, it made up for any extraneous cost! In this case, it's a lateral move with a 6k loss...

Thanks for the insight. This forum is priceless!
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#10

Job offer dilemma

Quote: (07-31-2015 10:31 PM)Gustavus Adolphus Wrote:  

You may know this already, but just in case someone else stumbles across this thread, these are some of the lessons I have learned.

I have recently done a complete overhaul of my career to stay in my current location, so I'd add a couple things:

1. Do not indicate to your current company that you are not going to relocate or stay with them. Even if you have already made up your mind. Just act natural. Make it sound like you are working, even if you aren't. Delay as long as you can until you have everything in order. If you like your company and boss, there will be a time to tell them honestly what is going on. Just wait. They won't be as nice as you thought they were when you tell them you're out.

2. Check your company policy on Vacation/ PTO that is owed to you. If you put in your 2 weeks, many times it will cause you to forfeit this financial benefit you have earned. If you are in good standing, and have some days, just take all your vacation. If it is PTO, they usually can't ask why, even if your sales manager is not happy about it or suspects something is up. If anything, just tell your HR department it is for family reasons and give no detail. I am sure it would be looked at poorly if they fired a man who needed to take some personal days...

3. Always have an offer in writing from a new company before making any communication to your current company. If you get terminated, you won't get a severance as if your position was eliminated. Also, many companies want you to start on the 1st or 15th. Sounds good. However, if you put in notice on the 15th thinking you will work and be paid through that pay period, your manager may say not to bother and you lose 2 weeks of money you may have budgeted to use for bills/travel (unless you are under a contract of some sort, but I am speaking of at-will employment states).

4. Depending on how your commissions and/or salary are paid (2nd Friday/ End of month), choose to put in your notice so you get the most income out of that time. Often, if you put in a 2 weeks notice, not only will you be let go at the end of a pay period/ following Friday-Monday (or immediately!) but there is no need to work for dollars you will not receive. Chances are you will leave some money on the table, but if you plan ahead you can minimize your loss.

5. Be mindful of your health insurance. If you do want to travel after receiving your written offer from the new company, I would suggest you put in your two weeks soon after the 1st of the month, if possible. You may not receive as much income if you are terminated immediately, but your health insurance will usually be covered through the end of the month inclusive of the duration of your employment because it has already been paid. So even if you get let go, you can still travel and be covered in case of injury, illness, etc., until the 1st of the next month. This also gives you some time to make one last visit to your GP/FM doctor, dentist, etc., so you don't have to use COBRA between the jump (unless you have small children that you are supporting).

6. I am going to say this one more time, because it is the most important lesson to be learned... a VERBAL OFFER is not an offer. Until you get a WRITTEN OFFER, you have exactly jack shit and no guarantee of employment. Even if a hiring manager says the job is yours, it may take days to know for sure.

Good Luck

Thank you for those excellent points! I appreciate all the time you put into writing this.

I completely agree that I need to keep acting as though I'm ready to relocate when the shoe drops. Business is business and manager's aren't friends. I'll keep the process (with the local company I'm interviewing with) close to the vest and only spring the news with written offer in hand.

Those are all salient and well thought out points on PTO, Health Insurance, and pay. I'm hoping that I'll get the offer from the other company with a 2 week start date, then have the layoff/severance hit somewhere in that time frame and tell my current company no go on the self relocation (perfect world scenario). This whole thing has a lot of moving parts so I need to remain Machiavellian to ensure I'm not getting worked over. Corporations can be great to work for, but at the end of the day, they exist to maximize shareholder value and turn a profit so you always have to make sure you're getting market value pay/benefits for the hard work they are extracting from you. This episode looks like they're extracting a little much.

If you care to share, what kind of changes in career did you need to make to remain at your location? Did you start a business or learn a new trade?
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#11

Job offer dilemma

Quote: (08-01-2015 01:09 AM)GlobalMan Wrote:  

Is there any negotiating on the 4k? From my experience, at least where I'm at, if they get a new tenant they typically can't also charge you, they can't "double up" in essence. Meaning they'd have to either leave it unrented or end up returning a portion of the 4k if they got a new tenant. I've successfully negotiated early termination of leases a couple time. If you tell then your job situation they may be sympathetic.

They're not negotiating and it's just a flat fee (vs. months remaining) in the lease agreement based on my monthly rent in a funky matrix they use. They do not allow any sort of a sub-lease either as I've pulled that stunt before with an old apartment I lived in.

My only recourse, if I have to relo, could be to have an attorney take a look at the lease and see if there's a loophole.

Thanks for the helpful insight!
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#12

Job offer dilemma

Quote: (08-01-2015 12:02 PM)amusedmastery Wrote:  

If you care to share, what kind of changes in career did you need to make to remain at your location? Did you start a business or learn a new trade?

I guess you could say I am learning a new trade, in the sense that I simply changed my industry to a product and clientele that I have never worked with in the past. But it doesn't matter, really. I started on this path about 5 years ago, failing several times along the way. I got tired of creating a lot of revenue for C-level people who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. I am about halfway to where I want to be, right now. You just have to figure out the system. Once you do, you will be doing job applications on the "Online Portal" of the company website after you know you have the job. They will just need you to do it for HR and EEO because the posting needs to be up for a week or something to let all the other people who aren't getting the job waste their time filling out paperwork.

The System

One of the best things about being in sales is that all companies want top performing salesmen pushing their product or service. They also want to know how you did it. Most HR and recruiters will encourage you to bring a brag book, filled with pictures of your awards and other nonsense. Everyone has this now. If you were hiring someone, do you care if they have a picture of their "MVP" trophy? Not likely. I have found it better to leave behind (to EVERYONE you interview with) a small, professional binder or folder (with tabs if necessary...) with your resume, copies of your manager evaluations, case study/studies detailing the best examples of your skill set from prospecting to close of sale, copies of customer appreciation emails for how you handled a situation, leadership, showed value, etc, and a printout of your LINKEDIN PEER RECOMMENDATIONS and 3 References they can call (which they won't if they read positive reviews from previous managers and co-workers... you already have the social proof that people like working with you). All real examples of you being who they need to hire right now before someone else does.

Other helpful attributes for getting the career you want, where you want it:

Marketability

How easily can you sell yourself? Have you taken any sales training programs, i.e. Professional Selling Skills or Strategic Selling? Have you read any basic sales literature or business development books? Even relating something from Jeffrey Gitomer's Little Red Book of Selling or Dale Carnegie's How To Win Friends And Influence People in the interview could help you stand out.

Networking

Are you using your personal and professional network effectively? In my case, my field started to become very gynocentric, so about two years ago I started looking for something that needed sales skills and a certain level of strength. I landed on a position that requires you to be able to lift and move 50-lb boxes multiple times per week. There were very few women interested in doing this because you can't get out of actually doing work. Once I figured this out, I started seeing who I knew in this industry, found a friend that could give me the inside track when a position opened, if I liked it I sent my resume to him and he put it on the desk of a VP. The first time I lost out to an internal candidate. The second time (last month) I accepted one of the top paying positions on the sales force.

The Financial Paradox

Ideally, you will not only be able to dictate your desired location, but you will also have input into successfully avoiding the dreaded "lateral" job switch. You want to somehow make more money in the new career than your previous- not the same or less. This is how you will command more money in future negotiations. One of the benefits to a sales position is that no one can truly predict what you would have made this upcoming year with any amount of certainty. Inevitably, you will be asked how much you are making, or what compensation you are requesting. This is usually a clandestine question when concerning sales professionals and you should not answer it 100% truth. They want to know what the minimum amount they can pay you to come work for them. If you answer honestly, it is a mistake. Obviously, you can't say you were making $250k as a Marketing Intern. But Sales is different. As long as it is believable, it's fine. Maybe you can take what you W-2 the previous year and "forecast" more for yourself and then add another $10k to your offer request. So, let's say you made $60k in 2014, I would put down that you are currently making $70k and ask for $80k to make the switch "from the job and company you could really see yourself working for long term." Most likely they will come back and say, "We can't pay your $80k. Would you be happy at $73k? Here's how your base+commissions would break down based on the results of the territory last year." Now you are looking at almost 22% more money. You should be interested because you aren't getting low-balled, and they think they talked you down.

Then if you think that is their best offer, you just tell them it sounds competitive and to put it in writing and email it to you, along with all the other 401k, Health Insurance, and Benefits info for your review. Then ask what day you should expect to receive it, and what day do they want a reply whether it is acceptable or not. Then just send a SHORT Thank-You Email to everyone you interviewed with or met along the way within 24 hours. Always include one highlight of the conversation that went well so they remember you... "Thanks for your time today, Dan. You mentioned that this territory has a lot of potential. Like I said in the interview, if I can grow my current business at ABC 17% year over year, I know I can do it for XYZ, inc. If you give me a chance to work on your team, I won't let you down. I look forward to hearing from you regarding the next step."


Does this answer your question? I really couldn't put together a quick reply that expresses the amount of work and detail necessary to make a solid impact on a highly competitive part of life, so you get the full explanation.

Best,

Gus
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#13

Job offer dilemma

There is already some great advice in this thread. I agree that it isn't a good sign when your company wants you to relocate but won't pay for it. You could move and within a year the company might reduce your commission/bonuses or have another round of layoffs.

Unless you are expecting an answer on the new job offer in the next couple of days I suggest applying for other jobs as soon as possible.

As Gustavus mentioned, review all the various policies in regards to PTO, 401k plans, health insurance, and payment of commission/bonuses. Some commission plans are setup so that salespeople don't get paid until months after a deal is closed and they forfeit all those commissions if they are no longer employed by the company. Example - you close a deal on August 5th but the customer doesn't pay until September 3rd and commissions are paid monthly so you don't get that commission until your October 1 check. If you are no longer employed by the company on October 1 then you forfeit that commission.

If your company pays you for any unused PTO then I would not recommend putting in a 2 weeks notice and telling them you want to use your PTO for your last couple of weeks. They might let you go within a couple days of receiving your notice and pay you for that 2 weeks and your unused PTO. If you are in a Sales position and they think you are going to a competing company then it is very likely they will let you go within a couple days of receiving your notice but they will probably pay you as if you stayed for the entire 2 weeks.

NDAs and non-compete agreements might be a minor concern but as long as you aren't in management it is unlikely that your company would try to enforce anything unless you really pissed them off with how you left.

Taking time off:
This could be a good option especially if your skills are in high demand and you can find another job easily. As you leave your current job, make sure you are on the best terms possible with people who you might ask to be references. These references will be important because they can confirm that the company wanted to keep you but you weren't willing to move. You will have less negotiating power with new offers unless you get multiple offers at the same time. Another option could be to lie and tell new companies that you are still employed at your old job. I usually don't condone lying but corporations will lie to you so it is part of the game.

If you don't get an offer for the job you interviewed for:
Apply for other jobs as soon as possible. Do not tell the new companies that you expect to have to relocate to keep your current job as that could reduce your leverage in a salary negotiation.

Try to delay things as long as possible with your current company. Suggest that you could relocate after your apartment lease is over and during the next 4 months you will work from home and/or travel frequently to the new city. If they decline, you could agree to move to get a few extra weeks and then put in your notice on the day you are supposed to move.

If you do get an offer for the job you interviewed for:
The new company will probably want you to start as soon as possible to avoid you reconsidering or renegotiating with your current company.

Without knowing more about your current company it is hard to say how you could try to influence them into quickly offering you a severance package. As soon as you get the new offer you could tell your current company that you aren't willing to relocate and that could speed up the process; however, it might not affect anything if the company plans to layoff many employees at the same time. Perhaps you don't give them 2 weeks notice and plan to give them notice on your last day. There are obvious drawbacks to doing this but you could get the severance package during that 2 weeks.

I would probably not give 2 weeks notice if the payout of commissions is similar to the example I mentioned before and you think you could get a severance package in that time. Give your notice after receiving your last commission check. In the future you can explain to your boss, or anyone else that you might ask to be a reference, that you wanted to give 2 weeks notice but you thought you would get screwed on your commissions.
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#14

Job offer dilemma

OP, if you haven't heard from the other organization at this point, you may to to bluff a bit and force their hand. You need clarity to move this forward. It sounds like you want to stay in the Mountain West so I'd suggest doing this.

E-mail the HM of the external position and tell them that your current org is looking for an answer on x date as to your relocation to the southwest. Your first preference is to join his team, learn the role quickly, and start cashing checks and snapping necks. However, you have to be prudent and weigh all options so it would be helpful if they could provide some feedback on where things stand.

This is a lie, sure, but corporations, especially when it comes to hiring, lie like a married women with the mailman's baby in her stomach. They DGAF.

Time kills all deals and your ping will reassert your interest and force feedback in a respectful way.

On an unrelated note, if your current org won't give you relo and is asking you to relo, move on in general. No skin in the game for someone that brings revenue in the door? GTFO with that. It sounds like you do well so know your worth and cut the cord first chance you get.

Additionally, almost every org that brings you on will be cool with you maximizing your dollars upon exit. If not, phrase it as such "well, I'm walking away from XXXX in comms so would you be willing to give me a sign on bonus to do so? No, okay then I'll sign the offer now with this day as the start date and start playing with product demo's in the meantime to save time once I'm officially here."

Hope it works out for ya.
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