[Neo]

(05-07-2018 08:30 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

So is The Secret (a chick flick really) a bastardized version of Prometheus Rising?

Edit:
Downloaded the book, read the wikipedia description and skimmed through the pages. I have initial very positive expectations of this book. From what I see, author has pretty good understanding of malleability of reality, which is a foundation on which further understanding of these themes must be built. I will read the book as soon as possible, but I am not sure if I will do the exercises.

There's definitely more to the book. I read it when I was in a self help phase of my life and was reading other books like "Think and Grow Rich" etc. so I remember specific exercises related to that.

Some of the themes overlap, but this book goes into much greater detail and depth about several different theories of reality and consciousness.

You can really go down the rabbit hole with this one if you choose, as it can really challenge you to reevaluate what you believe about the world. Of course take some of it with a grain of salt as some of the stuff seems psychedelically induced.

[debeguiled]

(05-06-2018 08:13 PM)Super_Fire Wrote:  

There's a reason we used to burn witches; because this sort of thing attracts feminists, omegas, loonies, and vengeful losers who attempt to use sexual liberation as a form of thought control.

Yeah, most of the people I know who are into this stuff, and there may be others that I don't know are into it, are pretty vengeful and pretty loserly.

There is something odd about going off into a room and thinking bad thoughts about people (curses and spells) instead of dealing with them directly.

It's kind of like hypnosis, which seems weird and cool, until you meet the people who are really into it.

This stuff can almost be like an unresolved childhood wish to have superpowers.

(Which I still have by the way, it is the acting on it that is weird.)

By the way, the last few posts about disciplining your mind still seem like positive thinking to me and not magick.

Where is the supernatural aspect?

[sterling_archer]

(05-07-2018 08:53 AM)Neo Wrote:  

(05-07-2018 08:30 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

So is The Secret (a chick flick really) a bastardized version of Prometheus Rising?

Edit:
Downloaded the book, read the wikipedia description and skimmed through the pages. I have initial very positive expectations of this book. From what I see, author has pretty good understanding of malleability of reality, which is a foundation on which further understanding of these themes must be built. I will read the book as soon as possible, but I am not sure if I will do the exercises.

There's definitely more to the book. I read it when I was in a self help phase of my life and was reading other books like "Think and Grow Rich" etc. so I remember specific exercises related to that.

Some of the themes overlap, but this book goes into much greater detail and depth about several different theories of reality and consciousness.

You can really go down the rabbit hole with this one if you choose, as it can really challenge you to reevaluate what you believe about the world. Of course take some of it with a grain of salt as some of the stuff seems psychedelically induced.

Believe me, I am already in that rabbit hole. This book seems to be a mild take on magick so I am interested, as opposed to hard literary work of 19th century occultists. Interesting thing is that Israel Regardie wrote the introduction!

[sterling_archer]

(05-07-2018 11:22 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  

By the way, the last few posts about disciplining your mind still seem like positive thinking to me and not magick.

Where is the supernatural aspect?

Isn't the malleability of reality through positive and active thinking not an magick act by itself? Supernatural is a bit weird term to me so I don't really use it, same as paranormal.
Like I said, me, Styx and some others don't consider magick to be always be something hidden, weird and dark (it can be sometimes though), but in fact an approach to dealing with others/reality that has in recent times grown to be a really big part of our lives. Shaping opinions through memes (see winning of DJT) and self help is one of the two most famous examples. Internet is spreading magick, literally. We could even say that science and magick not only do not exclude each other, but are in fact two complementary systems.

[debeguiled]

(05-07-2018 11:54 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

(05-07-2018 11:22 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  

By the way, the last few posts about disciplining your mind still seem like positive thinking to me and not magick.

Where is the supernatural aspect?

Isn't the malleability of reality through positive and active thinking not an magick act by itself? Supernatural is a bit weird term to me so I don't really use it, same as paranormal.
Like I said, me, Styx and some others don't consider magick to be always be something hidden, weird and dark (it can be sometimes though), but in fact an approach to dealing with others/reality that has in recent times grown to be a really big part of our lives. Shaping opinions through memes (see winning of DJT) and self help is one of the two most famous examples. Internet is spreading magick, literally. We could even say that science and magick not only do not exclude each other, but are in fact two complementary systems.

It's okay, it is just changing the definition to encompass everyday, normal stuff.

It's one thing to say you create your own reality, concentrate real hard, and materialize some gold, like Sai Baba did.

Either he is a faker, a sleight of hand artist, or he has some extraordinary power.

It is something else to spend all day looking on the ground, find a quarter, and call it magick.

Meme magick, without a supernatural element, is just persuasion, which is easily explained by psychology.

It seems to me that you can prove there is magick by verifiable evidence of results that are inexplicable by natural means.

Or you can change the definition of magick to encompass almost anything, and prove it because it now means something else, something easily provable.

We used to consider rape to be either forcible sexual intercourse or having sex with someone below the age of consent.

We had to have specific evidence to call it rape.

Now it is rape, in some places, if the woman doesn't say the word 'yes,' each step of the way through the seduction and the act itself.

We know why this is so. Because feminists WANT there to be rape to keep themselves and their industry going, so they have had to lower the standards of definition of rape.

All I am saying is that you don't want to be like the feminists, wanting something to be true to the extent that you are willing to diddle with the evidence to make it true.

[sterling_archer]

I wouldn't necessary equate argument of what I consider magick with the example about rape, but ok, we'll agree to disagree.
What I will say is since you mention Sai Baba, is an interesting opinion about him. One yogi says that man is pure evil. Very stark contrast in what we usually hear about him. He says Sai Baba's siddhis are real but that he has an "manipulative field" around him which binds people to him and through which evil intelligence that rules the world can be felt. Weird stuff.

[Fortis]

I don't really have much to contribute to this thread in terms of knowledge. I'm not particularly well-read on this stuff, but I do find it fascinating.

I wonder if there really is something to it all now. 10 years ago I would have smugly looked down on this thread, but now I realize I have "not been taking the question seriously enough" as Jordan Peterson might say. Part of me likes to write off all religion as some sort of vestigial part of the human brain, but I really can't even back up that assertion. As I get older, I start to lean more towards the idea that this stuff is significant in some way. It can't be a coincidence that nearly every culture has some "sub-religion" that addresses the occult directly and on its own terms. By "sub-religion" I'm thinking of stuff like Santaria, Hoodoo and other things that seem to have grown contemporeanously with Christianity whenever it sprang up in a new location. I find that very interesting. You would think that one religion would just usurp the other but they just stack and merge instead.you would think that if one were just completely false that it would have been envoloped and destroyed by the encroachment of a bigger more poweful religion, but that doesn't happen. It makes me consider the idea that there are some bedrock spiritual principles at play that are accounted for in all religious structures. Maybe that's the magic?

Anyway, I'm rambling now, but I've found this thread very interesting.

[Neo]

I've written this elsewhere in this thread, but to me magick seems like an elaborate form of goal setting. In terms of it being supernatural, well there needs to be proof of that. I've had some interesting experiences that I've documented in other threads on the forum, like sleep paralysis and glitches in the matrix. Strange? Sure. Unexplained? Not really.

I've never been a magick practitioner (in the traditional sense of the word) in that I've never done a real ritual. I've applied several psychological principles for life improvement, set goals, and I like to experiment on how I can alter and live in my own reality though.

I've always been very interested in psychology, so I tend to read anything that gives me insight into how the brain works.

None the less whatever you believe or whatever you want to call it, it's important stuff...because the 'malleability' of reality as sterling_archer put it is very real.

What I mean is how our perceptions, beliefs, and actions shape the world around us in a vastly profound way. Sounds simple and obvious especially in our part of the internet, but it takes a lifetime to master. I mean just look around the forum.

How many guys are stuck in the 'all women are sluts and I'm going to get screwed over' paradigm?

How many guys are looking for a long term relationship, but all those years of hook ups have jaded them to the point where they can't have a real relationship?

How many guys continually make excuses for years about why they CAN'T accomplish something?

The list goes on. Successfully overcoming these and other problems can definitely be a magical experience in itself.

[sterling_archer]

(05-07-2018 10:51 PM)Neo Wrote:  

The list goes on. Successfully overcoming these and other problems can definitely be a magical experience in itself.

Not only that, sometimes it can be a truly enlightening experience.

[Fortis]

(05-07-2018 10:51 PM)Neo Wrote:  

snip

That's quite interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way. I wrote in another thread how now that I've been really focused on my goal, it seems as though the universe is moving out of my way. I've got a yearly goal and, barring my vacation months, I'm set to blow it out of the water. I was explaining to a friend that I almost feel invigorated by the drudgery instead of viewing it as drudgery. I'm finding new ways to optimize the work I'm doing so that it's seamless and lucrative as possible. It reminds me of the first time I got into weight lifting and how much fun I had counting up macros, planning my diet and tracking my progress.

The silly thing is that I could have started on this goal 6 years ago and chose not to. I suppose there is something magical about suddenly pushing through a resistance point and seeing growth, mentally and physically.

[sterling_archer]

(05-08-2018 02:42 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

(05-07-2018 10:51 PM)Neo Wrote:  

snip

That's quite interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way. I wrote in another thread how now that I've been really focused on my goal, it seems as though the universe is moving out of my way. I've got a yearly goal and, barring my vacation months, I'm set to blow it out of the water. I was explaining to a friend that I almost feel invigorated by the drudgery instead of viewing it as drudgery. I'm finding new ways to optimize the work I'm doing so that it's seamless and lucrative as possible. It reminds me of the first time I got into weight lifting and how much fun I had counting up macros, planning my diet and tracking my progress.

The silly thing is that I could have started on this goal 6 years ago and chose not to. I suppose there is something magical about suddenly pushing through a resistance point and seeing growth, mentally and physically.

It's like you are on a winning streak and stuff sometimes seems to work itself out and push you forward instead of holding you down, isn't it?

[Andreas]

I read some books on magick but I never got sucked into religious/occult side of it if there is any.

I would go by Christopher Hyatt's definition of magick, which is: Willful change.
Basically, a fancy term for self improvement. As far as, people who claim that they know the hidden secrets that could give any person power over others, it's not Satanism. It's just cheesy marketing. No different than PUA who claims 100% rejection proof, so don't take these words too seriously.

If the OP wants to know more about the self improvement side of it, I would suggest that you start with 'Undoing Yourself with Energized Meditation and Other Devices' by Christopher Hyatt and 'Prometheus rising' by Robert Anton Wilson. The book authors from Falcon Publications tend to put some really strange titles on their books, but don't let that discourage you from delving into it.

Be aware that magick ritual exercises are very similar with NLP/Hypnosis and a lot of other philosophies/practices around the world. For example, those who believe in chakras and flow of negative/positive energy are not so different from a psychiatrist who believes that if you keep flooding your body with anxiety, you will fuck up yourself eventually. It's just different terms for the same phenomena.

I'm not equating psychiatry with yoga in this example, but if you start getting into this stuff and just put aside any notions about religion aside, you start seeing similarities in philosophies and suddenly, a lot of different reading material seems oddly familiar, even though the name of the practice is different.

As far as Aleister Crowley goes, I'm very curious to know how people managed to reach the conclusion that he is a satanist pedophile, without posting any sources with undeniable evidence.

I think he was just a very smart guy who wanted to piss off and troll the government, the elites and the church that keeps interfering with people's lives every time someone claims that as humans we are much more powerful than we think we are. I'm not talking about comic book hero powers.

If you are a religious person and you feel discouraged by what people are saying about these books, then stop listening to these people, open up a few books, do the exercises in the books and take what works for you and throw away the rest.

[sterling_archer]

(05-08-2018 11:04 PM)Andreas Wrote:  

As far as Aleister Crowley goes, I'm very curious to know how people managed to reach the conclusion that he is a satanist pedophile, without posting any sources with undeniable evidence.

I think he was just a very smart guy who wanted to piss off and troll the government, the elites and the church that keeps interfering with people's lives every time someone claims that as humans we are much more powerful than we think we are. I'm not talking about comic book hero powers.

If you are a religious person and you feel discouraged by what people are saying about these books, then stop listening to these people, open up a few books, do the exercises in the books and take what works for you and throw away the rest.

I have something of a non biased opinion regarding him, since I don't really care about thelema, but am familiar with his work.

Regarding his work, he was a real deal. I mean whatever he said, either about forces around us, or entities or what lies where and such is true. People should read his work and his experiences. He even wrote poetry and some people really dig his style (bit sarcastic and dark).

Regarding his personality, here we are entering into disputed territory. I think that everyone can acknowledge that he was an high IQ individual, that is for sure, but they are repulsed by some of the things he said. He proclaimed himself Beast, gave himself weird names and sometimes talked about stuff other people in his time could consider "satanic". You know probably that this term is BS and people throw it constantly at things they don't understand, but in his case, his insisting on some claims made him very hated.
He was made by establishment the most wicked man that lives. I think that is unfair and like you said it all comes down from meddling Church and government. At the same time, that UK government consisted of a bunch of real satanic individuals and occultists but of course no one said a word against them.

His life changed after a botched ritual in the Sahara desert and I think because of this his personality went in shift from a mountaineering yogi to a hard core occultist.

Btw, he was also a real troll who enjoyed pranking others with his sayings. Look at quote below.

Quote:

The case was widely reported in the press, with Crowley gaining wider fame.[95] Crowley enjoyed this, and played up to the sensationalist stereotype of being a Satanist and advocate of human sacrifice, despite being neither.

[sterling_archer]

This is an interesting video. I recommend to everyone interested in occult. I watched it just an half hour ago after I stumbled accidentally on it. Basically, some guy named Al narrates a story to channel owner (apparently his friend) about how he met in Ireland woman that was at least 150 years old.
Now, hear me out on this. When researching occult one can come across similar kinds of stories. Even my colleague has a story of his own (but in his case its a guy at least 200 years old). I will not get into explaining human longevity (this is not immortality!) but will say that story presented in video has interesting elements which I came across multiple times.

I am not claiming that this story is real, because we can't know that (if you are a skeptic for this stuff, then it is of course fake for you) but it has all the elements that point to me that it might be real.

[Malone]

I'll try to watch that a bit later. Can you give us a TL;DR of what you thought makes his story real?

[sterling_archer]

In short:

+ shifting appearance of the crone - can't be explained with just clothing/makeup, that element is prevalent in the far East and in the Caucasus region
+ brews - made from herbs that display clear psychedelic properties
+ weird size/appearance of the crone's house - Al describes it similar to Doctor Who's Tardis, meaning bigger on the inside than outside
+ longevity of woman in story - like I said, a common story that always involves some kind of spiritual experiences, not really secret knowledge about medicine

[Neo]

The guy in the story seems sincere, but I really had to laugh at several parts...dude may have hooked up with a centenarian!

Anyway, guy goes to an old university (Trinity) to study in Ireland and meets an old woman who has knowledge of alchemy and other ancient disciplines. He develops some sort of mentor/mentee relationship with her. At one point she gives him some sort concoction and they become intimate.

He claims that her appearance changes throughout the relationship...when they first met she looked like an old homeless woman, and as time went on she would look somewhere between 19 and 45 or so. He claimed she was a medical doctor in WW1 and born in the 1880s or before (story takes place in the 70s)

Definitely an entertaining watch, but farfetched. The real question what was in that brew?

[sterling_archer]

(05-09-2018 08:19 AM)Neo Wrote:  

Definitely an entertaining watch, but farfetched. The real question what was in that brew?

Believe me, I would like to find that out.

Yes, it is far fetched but like I said, some elements of the story are familiar to me, i.e. I have came across them before in other stories. Sure, he could have read the same things and made whole thing up. Btw, his storytelling ways are interesting too, he makes you pay attention with his jokes, mannerisms and such.

[SamuelBRoberts]

I was into magick and Wicca in high school and early college. I remember it very well because it was the only time in my life that God spoke to me.

I'd grown up as a Christian, but I started getting really into Wicca around high school. I think I thought magick was cool, 'cause it was like a video game and I was a big video gamer. I was spending a lot of time in libraries, which were well stocked with books on the occult, and I read everything I could get my hands on. I learned all about the great horned god, and the goddess, and all the various spells, and the persucution of witches by malicious Christians, and all that stuff. I was big into it too. I had a book called "Psychic Self-Defense", which was actually really cool, and a neat read if you ever get your hands on a copy. I was still going to church, because my family expected me to, but in my mind I was calling myself a wiccan and feeling pretty cool. I even did some spells, and had some weird stuff happen (A stuffed bear my girlfriend had given me for valentines day flew across the room one time, almost whacked me in the head. It had been sitting on my dresser on the other side of the room, about 6 feet away.)

Then I got to college, and the first thing I did was sign up for the local wicca club. I kept this a secret from my parents, of course. I remember excitedly going to the first meeting, which was held fairly late at night in an isolated classroom on campus. I was all ready to deepen my understanding of the world of witchcraft!

...Then I got there, and it was some flamboyantly gay guys and obvious social rejects crowding around a couple chubby women who were "witches". I believe we spent the evening sowing readily available seasoning herbs (Thyme, parsley, maybe some sage) into pouches. This was supposed to bring us luck, or ward off evil, or maybe help us with tests or something. I had expected dark rituals, or access to deeply hidden secrets long forgotten by the vast majority of mankind, and instead I was doing arts and crafts with a bunch of losers. They were all very nice people, and very welcoming, though, so I stayed until the end of the meeting, wished everyone a pleasant night, and headed home in the darkness.

On the way back, I heard a voice in my head, clearly not my own. This was the first time in my life that anything like this had happened, and it's never happened since. I can only assume that it was the voice of god.
The voice said, "Sam, that was really stupid, wasn't it?"

And I said, "Yes, yes it was."

I never had anything to do with Wicca again, and I've been a Christian ever since.

Totally true story.

[Neo]

(05-10-2018 03:58 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

On the way back, I heard a voice in my head, clearly not my own. This was the first time in my life that anything like this had happened, and it's never happened since. I can only assume that it was the voice of god.
The voice said, "Sam, that was really stupid, wasn't it?"

And I said, "Yes, yes it was."

I never had anything to do with Wicca again, and I've been a Christian ever since.

Totally true story.

About a month ago I was driving back from a meaningless sexual encounter with this chick. On the ride home I was in a very strange emotional and mental state, one that I haven't been in for a very very long time.

It was like it was the last straw, finally dawning on me that what I was doing was just not satisfying me on a deeper level. Now I've known this intellectually, but not completely.

I remained in this state for the entire drive and about 15 minutes away from home, I heard the same voice...and it said nearly the same thing...

"Neo, that was pointless wasn't it?"

"Yes, I finally understand now."

The more spiritually in tune I've become to stronger this voice has gotten.

[sterling_archer]

But why would God care about Wicca or meaningless flings with women? What makes you think that you heard God's voice and not for example of your higher self? God is Supreme Reality, origin of existence and hardware on which existence runs (software) and not some being that concerns himself/herself (no gender here really) with the matters of mortals.

See, what I just wrote and what you two wrote are examples of Thinker/Prover brain mechanism. Neo, thank you wholeheartedly for the mentioning of Prometheus Rising. I started reading it yesterday and chapter 2 completely blew my mind. I will not attempt exercise from that chapter because I don't want to end up insane. Author is completely right, reality is completely bent and shaped by our will.
All my experiences and knowledge "prove" to me that I am right regarding occult, magick, etc. and experiences of atheists (or better said non-experiences) "prove" to him/her that he/she are right. Same is with you two guys.

What is even real or true anymore, I might never find out...

[Neo]

^

I think Mage mentioned it first

I wonder if anyone has done all the exercises because some of them are quite bizarre as in he recommends psychedelics and other things.

One thing's for sure, the guy really took his own advice in challenging his beliefs and worldview.

Not to derail, but there's definitely some red pill material in the book considering it was originally published in 1983. My guess would be the author is/was a liberal, but some of the passages make me think twice.

Examples:

"Concretely, a modern man or woman doesn't look for bio-survival security in the gene-pool, the pack, the extended family. Bio-survival depends on getting the tickets (cash). "You can't live without money," as the Living Theatre troop used to cry out in anguish. If the tickets are withdrawn, acute bio-survival anxiety appears at once..."

"Welfare-ism, socialism, totalitarianism, etc. represent attempts, in varying degrees of rationality and hysteria, to re-create the tribal bond by making the State stand-in for the gene-pool..."

"On the other hand, the State is not a gene-pool or a tribe, and cannot really play the bio-survival unit convincingly."

"..if the universe in general and other humans in particular are imprinted as dangerous, hostile and frightening—the Prover will go on throughout life adjusting all perceptions to fit this map. This is what is known as the "Injustice Collector" syndrome (in the language of Dr. Edmund Bergler). The female members of this imprint group become Radical Feminists;..."

We've been saying similar things on RVF for years...especially concerning Western women's lack of need for a man. The state has stepped in to give them that needed security.

Interesting stuff.

[debeguiled]

(05-11-2018 04:02 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

But why would God care about Wicca or meaningless flings with women? What makes you think that you heard God's voice and not for example of your higher self? God is Supreme Reality, origin of existence and hardware on which existence runs (software) and not some being that concerns himself/herself (no gender here really) with the matters of mortals.

These two guys were sharing personal experiences, and you are issuing global statements that are designed to invalidate those experiences.

I could turn your question around and ask, why is it so important to you to tell them that God didn't speak to them because if there is a God, he has better things to do?

I have found that when the conversation turns to magick or the esoteric, despite the avowal of objectivity among the practitioners, there is a clear tendency to degrade, diminish, and explain away any traditional experiences of a traditional god.

Now why do you think that is?

To take your question at face value though, there is a spiritual gift/charism/quality that is very well known to Christians no matter the denomination called discernment.

Some have the gift of discernment and some don't, and some, through hard work and patience over the years learn to cultivate it. Some people just get flashes of it when they need it.

Discernment is a kind of spiritual knowing that allows people to be able to identify whether or not they are hearing their own voice, or the voice of God, or the voice of some other spiritual entity.

An earthly equivalent might be good threat detection and situational awareness. As in, two guys might be walking along and come across some strangers in the street. They deal with them and move on, and afterward, one of the two is relieved, because he had to engage in some quick verbal judo to keep the strangers from attacking them. The other, is completely oblivious to threat, and felt nothing during the entire tense moment.

If you have explored one of the more traditional religions, you know that when you pray, it is very hard to discern whether or not God has answered, or whether you are just following your own inclinations and calling it God, or whether you are in the presence of some other less than positive spiritual entity.

It takes a kind of internal puzzling which may even take hours or days to figure this all out.

(Luke 2:19: But Mary kept all these words, pondering them in her heart. )

Long story short: You can feel the difference.

Usually, but not always, when it is God, it goes against your preferences and inclinations, and when it is something spiritually negative, you get a kind of a warning chill that you can either listen to or hamster away. If you have taken the time to know yourself, you can usually tell when it is your own voice telling yourself what you want to hear.

It goes without say that this sort of spiritual learning is a world away from the occult which focuses on the will and the world.

As to your question about why would God care. Why would a parent care about their children? Why not just let them do their own thing no matter how dire the consequences?

If you can even ask that question, you are pretty far away from the spiritual reality that is God. You are in a world focused in an entirely different way.

It has been my experience, despite so much propaganda to the contrary, that it is in fact the followers of magick and the esoteric who seem to have a vested interest in running down the traditional conception of a deity.

Why would that be the case if magick is just objective self help?

[YoungBlade]

^

TL;DR

Because I FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL it's Jebus

[debeguiled]

Touche, great beast.