[scorpion]

(04-15-2016 12:04 PM)ColSpanker Wrote:  

So let me get this straight scorpion, you are saying the Freemasons are the minions of Satan?

Go read my posts on the first page of this thread. I'm saying that all of these secret societies, doctrines of magick, occultism, mystery religions, etc... ultimately all lead to Satan/Lucifer. That's what's at the bottom of the rabbit hole. Don't take my word for it. If you do the research yourself you will inevitably reach the same conclusion.

The fact that the vast majority of people who are actively engaged in these organizations and practices don't believe and/or realize they are Satanic is totally irrelevant. Their motivations aren't what counts; it's their actions that matter. However, it is incredibly ironic that so many people get into these practices in order to gain personal power and "enlightenment" and yet are totally oblivious to the reality of what they're doing. In trying to gain hidden knowledge they end up totally hoodwinked and exploited (Rom. 1:22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.")

[thoughtgypsy]

(04-15-2016 12:04 PM)ColSpanker Wrote:  

So let me get this straight scorpion, you are saying the Freemasons are the minions of Satan?

The freemasons make no secret of their association with lucifer. If you take the time to read "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike, a 33rd degree mason, he states it openly.

Where it becomes more complicated is what lucifer represents to them. Many will deny that lucifer and the biblical satan are the same thing. A lot of the biblical symbols associated with lucifer/satan are used by freemasons: i.e. the baphomet, serpents, etc.

Where it becomes even more unusual is when these symbols, such as serprent worship, appear in pre Christian times. The ancient egyptians often used the twin serpent caduceus symbol (which is often seen in the American medical field, and arising from the crotch in baphomet depictions) in their inscriptions. Serpent worship appears in many other ancient religions, particularly among the priestly caste.

Even further back, the oldest known complex human ritual involved python worship. This was over 70,000 years ago and involved complex stone tools from hundreds of kilometers away. https://www.apollon.uio.no/english/artic...glish.html

[ColSpanker]

^^^I see. How does this tie in with the Supersonic Nazi Hell Creatures From Beneath The Earth?

You see, I believe in the power of Bob!

[Neo]

Most of the stuff about freemasonry on the web is rubbish. For the record I'm not a mason, I've just read about them and as mentioned above visited two lodges on off nights. I grew up with some guys who were masons, and they were fine as I'm sure decent moral men make up a large percentage of most lodges.

As for Albert Pike, he's a controversial figure in Freemasonry and his references to Lucifer being the 'god' of freemasonry are completely false. First the following quote:

"...Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay is also god. For the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods; darkness being necessary for light to serve as its foil as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive...."

This quote is a complete fabrication and part of the Leo Taxil hoax:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxil_hoax. The man held a press conference and admitted that he made up his allegations against the church and the freemasons. He was a writer looking for fame. Anyway let's go on.

Second the other quote used on anti-masonic sites from Pike.

"“Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable, blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish souls? Doubt it not!”

Sounds odd until you put into context. Here's some parts they conveniently left out:

"The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apothesis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, for traditions are full of sensual or selfish Souls ? Doubt it not! Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired..."

It's clear here that Pike is simply mentioning that naming Satan 'Lucifer' is strange because 'Lucifer' means 'light-bearer' in Latin, which is derived from the latin lux meaning light.

The second part I bolded is Pike mentioning that Satan's 'light' can blind feeble souls.

But of course people post things out of context and use what I mentioned above as 'proof' that freemasonry is Satanic. It's hogwash.

[hydrogonian]

Personally, I would never say with absolute certainty what Freemasons believe or do not believe except when it comes to recognizing explicit beliefs such as those of the Kabbalah.

I assume that there are myriad of mythological mini-dramas and their associated theologies that are also a part of their system. In fact, to a point, I know that there are and that there is significant doctrine that is not on the web nor in any book of which I know except in the most passing of indirect allusions in publications that you can probably only access in scanned form on google books. I would never assume to be aware of all mythologies or theologies of their system and thus to be able to make definitive statements about any of it; Kabbalah excluded.

What I will say is that all of the talk about Satanism and Luciferianism tends to be accomplished from a pre-judged perspective of what mainstream Christianity says about these two categories.

In reality, either concept is merely a word attached to a definition.

The key is that the definition itself might change between mainstream Christianity and whatever esoteric system is under discussion.

Thus "Satanism" or "Luciferianism" simply might not refer to the same thing across religions, though the adherents viewing it from the perspective of mainstream Christianity assume that it does.

A better way to approach it might be to look at the definitions of either concept and compare them across religions. I think that you will be dissapointed in the overall accuracy of your assumption, though, if you assume that a worship of an anthropomorphic entity is taking place rather than acceptance of a concept.

For instance, if you were to assume "Satanism=bestiality in a theological context (in part)" for instance, and found theologically inspired bestiality to be occurring, then I would agree with you that, by your definition of Satanist, whoever is engaging in this bestiality is Satanist and fucked up.

However, let's say that their definition of Lucifer essentially matched mainstream Christianity's description of Christ but they merely called the concept "Lucifer". At that point, would I agree that they are "Luciferian" in the mainstream Christian context of being evil? Probably not. I would only agree that they are Luciferian in the context of what they choose to name a specific theological concept. Whether or not that concept is good or evil has to be judged separately and, as I before offered, it's hard to know what their final beliefs entail. I can guess, engage in pattern recognition, make theological comparisons and resulting judgements, derive conclusions from statements in books, but in the end it's hard to say what the overall picture is without being above it.

[The Beast1]

I have a weakly linked theory on Freemasonry that links in with a legend held in Islamic circles about King Solomon.

According to legend, King Solomon became powerful by controlling genies (jinn). The Jinn are actually maleficent beings who give you what you need but take something greater in return. King Solomon being wise learned how to control these creatures to do his bidding and as such built the 1st great temple of Jerusalem. When I did some research into freemasonry I found that their beliefs were centered on the architect of Solomon's temple amongst other moral lessons.

Could it be possible that Freemasonry is an adapted version of the ritualist magick that Solomon used in order to control the Jinn to do his bidding?

[Neo]

Sure, nobody will ever know exactly what they believe although they are not a religion. Considering that the volume of sacred law that is open in lodges can be literally any holy book depending on the belief of the members. It could be a Bible, the Koran, the Vedas, etc. Can someone claim that the supreme being they believe in is satan and join? I guess. From what I gather, once the person declares his belief in a supreme being no further questions are asked. Discussion of religion and politics is also forbidden in the lodge.

My point on freemasonry is that most of the allegations against them being 'satanic' are based on out of context quotations or documented hoaxes which are still being believed more than 100 years later.

Further, the allegations regarding satanic symbolism is attributed to the use of the pentagram used in some masonic organizations(The order of the eastern star.)

This symbol being attributed to witchcraft or evil is a modern invention. It can also be found on medieval churches in Europe where the five pointed star stood for the five wounds of Jesus on the cross. The Medal of Honor is also a pentagram, is that also satanic?

Do the freemasons have an agenda? Probably, so do most large groups. Do they network by helping their fellow brothers get into positions of power? Most likely yes. I see that as no different than a business owner on RVF hiring a forum member instead of someone else. Did/does a group of men of different religious and socioeconomic backgrounds breaking bread and meeting scare the establishment and religious authority? Definitely, hence their persecution over the years and to this day.

I find it funny that we have RVF which is being attacked because we're anti-establishment and challenging authority in the same way that freemasons have been for the past 300 years. Yet, it seems many members of this board believe the conspiracy websites about freemasonry without digging deeper.

It's no different than when the mass media labeled Roosh and everyone associated with him as a rapist and it was believed by the populace. Or just like the smear campaign against Trump.

[hydrogonian]

(04-16-2016 12:10 PM)Neo Wrote:  

Sure, nobody will ever know exactly what they believe although they are not a religion.

This is an unfounded assertion. They have all of the markings of religion. Kabbalah is religion. For the record, there are other materialist religions, primarily focused on utopian results, that can get away with atheistic trappings as well. When your religion primarily concerns what occurs on Earth, it's trivial to paint yourself as non-religion to no effect on whatever your philosophy and agenda is.

Quote:

Discussion of religion and politics is also forbidden in the lodge.

But not Freemasonic mythology. Calling something "not religion" doesn't mean that it isn't. When is the molten sea going to be forged, anyway?

Quote:

My point on freemasonry is that most of the allegations against them being 'satanic' are based on out of context quotations or documented hoaxes which are still being believed more than 100 years later.

Every shady group under the sun appeals to "documented hoaxes" to excuse leaks, which are usually "documented" primarily by them.

Quote:

Further, the allegations regarding satanic symbolism is attributed to the use of the pentagram used in some masonic organizations(The order of the eastern star.)

The pentagram is astrological. Using the Christian "Satanist" straw-man to specifically disprove any mention of ill intention isn't exactly convincing. Not being specifically "Satanist" (whatever that means to you) doesn't imply innocence.

Quote:

Do the freemasons have an agenda? Probably, so do most large groups.

That's not an excuse for ignoring any particular agenda. One agenda is not like the other.

Quote:

Do they network by helping their fellow brothers get into positions of power? Most likely yes. I see that as no different than a business owner on RVF hiring a forum member instead of someone else.

It is different because we are talking about a private, secretive, quasi-religious or religious organization, with deep penetration into politics and police (and likely higher), influencing mechanisms of power. At those levels, it's not the same as Johnny hiring Chuckie to totes kill it in automotive sales with him.

Quote:

Did/does a group of men of different religious and socioeconomic backgrounds breaking bread and meeting scare the establishment and religious authority? Definitely, hence their persecution over the years and to this day.

That's uncritical reasoning.

(04-16-2016 12:10 PM)Neo Wrote:  

I find it funny that we have RVF which is being attacked because we're anti-establishment and challenging authority in the same way that freemasons have been for the past 300 years.

Assuming the historical authority-challenging charges against the Freemasons or associated societies are true (such as having a hand in the French Revolution for example), I don't remotely see it as a similar thing that would mandate empathy for the Freemasons. The Freemasons keep their doctrines secret and RVF does not.

Quote:

Yet, it seems many members of this board believe the conspiracy websites about freemasonry without digging deeper.

There's been some relatively deep digging on the forum, insofar as can be dug. I offer that secret societies and religions dig their own metaphorical graves with the secrecy. If people assume things that aren't true, and at that time full disclosure is not made then it isn't the fault of the populace if they don't want and act on what they perceive to be a subversive force in their midst.

Quote:

It's no different than when the mass media labeled Roosh and everyone associated with him as a rapist and it was believed by the populace. Or just like the smear campaign against Trump.

I see it as 100% different. Again, I refer you to the secrecy combined with the obvious influence.

Not to get into a pissing match over this. This is merely my opinion.

[Paracelsus]

(04-16-2016 10:23 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

There's been some relatively deep digging on the forum, insofar as can be dug. I offer that secret societies and religions dig their own metaphorical graves with the secrecy. If people assume things that aren't true, and at that time full disclosure is not made then it isn't the fault of the populace if they don't want and act on what they perceive to be a subversive force in their midst.

That, indeed, was part of the rationale for the original condemnation of Freemasonry in Catholicism. In 1736 the Inquisition broke up a Freemason cell in Florence - it had been based on English Freemasonry under Sackville. Part of Clement XII's prohibition, In eminenti apostolatus, said:

Quote:

Now it has come to Our ears, and common gossip has made clear, that certain Societies, Companies, Assemblies, Meetings, Congregations or Conventicles called in the popular tongue Liberi Muratori or Francs Massons or by other names according to the various languages, are spreading far and wide and daily growing in strength; and men of any Religion or sect, satisfied with the appearance of natural probity, are joined together, according to their laws and the statutes laid down for them, by a strict and unbreakable bond which obliges them, both by an oath upon the Holy Bible and by a host of grievous punishment, to an inviolable silence about all that they do in secret together. But it is in the nature of crime to betray itself and to show itself by its attendant clamor. Thus these aforesaid Societies or Conventicles have caused in the minds of the faithful the greatest suspicion, and all prudent and upright men have passed the same judgment on them as being depraved and perverted. For if they were not doing evil they would not have so great a hatred of the light. Indeed, this rumor has grown to such proportions that in several countries these societies have been forbidden by the civil authorities as being against the public security, and for some time past have appeared to be prudently eliminated.

Note the reference to earlier civil prohibitions on Freemasonry. This was in a period pretty well past the point where the church was a part of the secular authorities anymore. As for the suggestion the prejudice is based on rumours more than 100 years old - as late as 1913, the Grand Orient school of Freemasonry in France -- a distinct school from English Freemasonry, which had already been condemned -- had openly said it was out to destroy Roman Catholicism, first in France, then worldwide.

In 1980, and after a dialogue with Freemasons themselves, the German Bishops' Conference still held the prohibition was appropriate for Catholics. Reasons being: Freemasonry denies revelation and objective truth. They also alleged that religious indifference is fundamental to Freemasonry, that Freemasonry is Deist, and that it denies the possibility of divine revelation, so threatening the respect due to the Church's teaching office. The sacramental character of Masonic rituals was seen as signifying an individual transformation, offering an alternative path to perfection and having a total claim on the life of a member. These are doctrines which are not compatible with Catholicism at least, and probably not with Christianity full stop.

[Nitro]

I've been in/out of The Occult pretty much my entire life. I grew up in Santeria. I've since dabbled in a whole lot of things, believed/disbelieved in mostly everything. I don't believe Magick, rituals, or that stuff do anything in our realm of existence which we can actually experience. My interests in occult/supernatural/etc is more so allegorical, if anything at this point, but still, I often times wander into my own head and wonder what if all this were to be "real".

[Aurini]

(04-14-2016 09:53 PM)ColSpanker Wrote:  

Are you advocating demonology as an answer to psychology? I would find that odd since you have lectured about psychology on your podcast.

Not demonology per se, but evil. As I continue to study mental illness, it becomes increasingly clear that at the heart of mental disorders - at the heart of the disordered mind - there lies a moral fault.

The Cluster Bs are truly demoniac in nature, at their core is a singularity of shame and rage. There are matters of degree with these disorders - it can be induced through abuse - but at a certain point it becomes fixed, and the result is someone who is a perfectly destructive as any human can be. They weaponize your own sympathy and charity, and should be avoided as thoroughly as demons.

There are other disorders which result from a great evil being perpetuated on a person. I'm a subscriber to the Refrigerator Mother theory of Schizophrenia, for instance. Some months back I was at a coffee shop when a schizophrenic man sat down with me. He'd suffered incredible abuse as a child, and as a result he heard voices yelling at him that his was a child molester, and that people were going to kill him. He'd split his personality into "Tom" and "Tommy", one of them being a naive 8 year old boy who's afraid of the voices, and the other one a fifteen year old bully who lashes out at the world. No signs of demonic possession; this was the result of him refusing to re-enact the evil that had been done to him.

One of the worst things about trauma is that the victim winds up with the desire to relive it. This is why child abuse victims grow into child molesters, and why rape victims have a schizoid relationship with sex (alternatively provocative and conservative with their sexuality). By refusing to become an abuser like his parents were, this man compartmentalized his abuse into one area of his mind, which became it's own node of personality. The poor bastard needed therapy, but all that the medical establishment would do was give him drugs.

Modern Psychology has thrown out the entire concept of Good, Justice, and Morality, to the point where they refuse to recognize the obvious. I was recently reading an article about how the modern world leaves women depressed, used up, et cetera, et cetera - but they still managed to walk past the obvious conclusion that wasting your most fertile years sleeping with assholes, and pursuing empty egoism through a career, is morally wrong. The truth was staring them in the face, but instead of admitting "We're encouraging people to lead a life of sin and misery," they instead tried to mitigate the sin; gay marriage is similar, in that we're trying to 'fix' a naturally disordered lifestyle by giving it the trappings of normality, without any acknowledgement of what normality actually means.

Stefan Molyneux posted an hour-long analysis of Frozen a while back, where he interpreted the magic as mental illness, as a cover-up for trauma from one's past. This is bang-on, both looking backwards to explain delusion and dissociation, as well as looking forward to actually performing ritual magic. The reason there is so little of the evidence that scientists might demand, is that the goal of magic is ultimately psychological in nature; it isn't the sort of thing that can be double-blind studied or proven statistically.

Without an understanding of evil, an understanding of ordered living, we cannot truly understand mental illness; we can only manage and, at best, exploit it for some sort of productive end - how productive will vary, however. Hollywood, for instances, seems to use extensive narcissism and abuse to manipulate everyone in it to produce fun movies, that are incredibly toxic. Wallstreet appeals to psychopaths who wind up killing the goose that lays the golden egg (in that case, there is no understanding of usury).

Actual demonic possession is extremely rare, and if you believe M. Scott Peck the targets are generally those who have something unique and powerful they could have brought to the world. Personally I have a sneaking suspicion that rates of possession are down, while general demonic activity is going up.

They no longer need possession; people are choosing to follow them willingly.

Quote:

Everyone else I knew who was involved with the Freemasons were in it for the business connections. If this is a secret society that controls human history, the Men In Black should cash in their stocks.

My grandfather was a high level Mason, and a deeply religious man; I hope that I can be as kind and loving as he was in his old age. So certainly not all Masons.

For that matter one of the most evil radio shows I've listened to was from a "Christian" preacher. It took me a couple months of listening before I spotted the perversion he'd introduced.

The difference between Good and Evil in these cases is whether it accepts an order coming down from God. Each of us has a role to play, some spot in a hierarchy, there are times when we are called to lead and times when we are called to follow. The Luciferian rejects that natural order, and wishes to place themselves as God, to make themselves the ultimate arbiter of what is right, of what is true. Both Kabbalah and Free Masonry have occult (hidden) practices and hierarchies, and in some quarters an extreme arrogance about how the world should work. While a great deal of our present societal sickness can be explained by flocking narcissists, active and organized subversion plays a role too.

Mind you, this is all very speculative with me. On the one hand, there are too many coincidences about which tribe is behind the most toxic memes being propagated; but at the same time, blaming all Jews for the actions of a few is absurd, and I am fully confident that we'd still have the porn industry running rampant even if they all moved to Israel. Unfortunately with all of this the answer is never as simple as some of the wags out there would like.

As an aside, if you need some motivation to quit using porn, there was a line from the girl in The Last Man on Earth that might help you: "You know all those girls were molested, right?"

[debeguiled]

Aurini, you are probably already aware of this dude, but the late Father Malachi Martin, Jesuit and exorcist, has a lot to say about the connection between the moral and mental dysfunction. His books and his interviews have a lot of food for thought.

I will probably follow up on this later, as I am just now listening to all his interviews with Art Bell on Coast to Coast.

Playlist here:

Malachi Martin on Coast to Coast

[Nitro]

I've heard two opinions on Freemasons - 1. Evil and worship Lucifer as their real God 2. Really just a boy's club that comes with a lot of expenses via fees and donations.

[DamienCasanova]

(07-12-2015 02:05 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

At the bottom of the rabbit hole, Freemasonry, Occultism, Kabbalah, Theosophy, New Age teachings, Magick, etc... are simply Satanic in nature. If you read the works of Helena Blavatsky and Manly P. Hall they make it very clear that their ultimate spiritual enlightenment comes from a being called Lucifer. They claim that this Lucifer is some sort of spirit or angel of light who seeks to enlighten mankind and teach us to essentially become gods. They deny that Lucifer and the Biblical Satan are the same being, which would be a rather strange coincidence in and of itself, and which is made even more unbelievable by the fact that Satan used the exact same technique to trick Adam and Eve that Lucifer uses today (the offer of secret knowledge which will make men into gods).

Genesis 3:1-7 Wrote:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Lucifer and Satan are quite clearly the same being: http://www.gotquestions.org/Lucifer-Satan.html

The Bible says flat out that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

A good, short introduction to the connection between Lucifer/Satan and Occultism: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2002/c...ucifer.htm

These occultist beliefs date back millennia to the ancient mystery schools and are preserved in the highest level teachings of occultism and within today's secret societies. No one suddenly decides, "Hey, let's worship the Devil!" Rather, the process is a slow and gradual one, initiated through deception and flattery, where the victim is convinced that he can unlock his potential through some secret knowledge. This is the great lie of Satan. There is no hidden knowledge. The truth has no reason to hide. The truth is out in the open and available to all men. The only thing that can prevent men from coming to full knowledge of the truth is their own hubris.

[thoughtgypsy]

(04-18-2016 04:24 PM)Nitro Wrote:  

I've heard two opinions on Freemasons - 1. Evil and worship Lucifer as their real God 2. Really just a boy's club that comes with a lot of expenses via fees and donations.

Come on, your motives are laughably obvious here. You're attempting to discredit rational discussion of their (freemasons) stated religious affiliation, while trumpeting their public relations front as their only design.

You can do this with almost any conspiracy you wish to paint it the way you'd like.

I've heard two opinions on feminism - 1. Evil and want to kill all men 2. Really just a group of women who want equality.

I've heard two opinions on the NSA - 1. Evil and wants to monitor everything everyone does 2. Really just a group of patriots protecting us against terrorism.

And so on.

Freemasonry, in one form or another (Priests of ancient egypt [Origin for the eye of horus/all seeing eye], Magi, Brahmins, Ptolemaic Schools, Dionysia, Bacchanalia, Orphici, Rosicrucians, Knights Templar, Priory of Sion, etc) has existed for millenia as an esoteric society based on symbolism and secrecy whose motives are hidden to the population at large, including the lower degrees of it's own order. If that doesn't raise an eye brow over their motives, I don't know what will.

One of the earliest recorded men to break from the order was the Egyptian Pharoah Akhenaten. As was tradition, upon becoming Pharoah, the priest class inducted him into their true religious beliefs, a reverence for the light bringing sun god Aten. The priest class regarded the majority of common people as "profane", and concealed their true religious beliefs to the masses while encouraging a polythiestic worship they believed was heretical to their true god. Akhenaten felt this secrecy was unjust, and sought to encourage worship of Aten amongst his citizens while reigning in the power of the priest class, which he believed to be deceptive.

Upon his death, the priest class quickly reinstated polythiesm and sought to defame the actions of Akhenaten during his rule. Akhenaten, and some of his lineage were erased from the official lists of Pharaohs. Some believe this was an attempt to destroy any homage to Atenism from the historical record.

For a more modern, and perhaps more gruesome example of what freemasons due to their lapsed brethren, look into the history of William Morgan and the Anti-masonic movement it spawned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mo...nti-Mason)

There is a primary source from the time period written by Former president John Quincy Adams called "Letters on the Masonic Institution" (1847) that is highly recommended.

Would a mere fraternal organization resort to assassination of its members? Perhaps what they wish to remain hidden could have serious ramifications if revealed.

[Orion]

(04-19-2016 12:05 PM)DamienCasanova Wrote:  

(07-12-2015 02:05 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

At the bottom of the rabbit hole, Freemasonry, Occultism, Kabbalah, Theosophy, New Age teachings, Magick, etc... are simply Satanic in nature. If you read the works of Helena Blavatsky and Manly P. Hall they make it very clear that their ultimate spiritual enlightenment comes from a being called Lucifer. They claim that this Lucifer is some sort of spirit or angel of light who seeks to enlighten mankind and teach us to essentially become gods. They deny that Lucifer and the Biblical Satan are the same being, which would be a rather strange coincidence in and of itself, and which is made even more unbelievable by the fact that Satan used the exact same technique to trick Adam and Eve that Lucifer uses today (the offer of secret knowledge which will make men into gods).

Genesis 3:1-7 Wrote:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it [b]your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”[/b]

Lucifer and Satan are quite clearly the same being: http://www.gotquestions.org/Lucifer-Satan.html

The Bible says flat out that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

A good, short introduction to the connection between Lucifer/Satan and Occultism: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2002/c...ucifer.htm

These occultist beliefs date back millennia to the ancient mystery schools and are preserved in the highest level teachings of occultism and within today's secret societies. No one suddenly decides, "Hey, let's worship the Devil!" Rather, the process is a slow and gradual one, initiated through deception and flattery, where the victim is convinced that he can unlock his potential through some secret knowledge. This is the great lie of Satan. There is no hidden knowledge. The truth has no reason to hide. The truth is out in the open and available to all men. The only thing that can prevent men from coming to full knowledge of the truth is their own hubris.

Hate to bring up old posts but since you quoted it:

I can' believe author of this post didn't see the obvious refutation of his own claim.

The bolded parts: Serpent didn't initially lie. Adam and Eve DID actually gain knowledge. It wasn't a lie. They did gain knowledge of good and evil as promised, that's why they put up clothing. Serpent didn't even lie when it said they won't die, because they did not. Where Serpent did lie, is when it said they will become like God himself, which they obviously didn't.

Hence if Serpent didn't lie, so don't Serpents followers, which you recognize in followers of modern cults and secret societies, at least about knowledge. However, when it comes to Promethean quests, if they were true to Serpent, then they should also lie.

Genesis 3:22

"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"

See. Man did become as God. However, God did posses powers that Adam and Eve obviously did not. We could speculate about which powers those are.

Of course, this is if those passages are to be taken literally, as a precise chronological description of events, which i certainly don't see that way. Obviously, Genesis is written in a rather poetic language (well, translated at least), and purpose was not to describe exactly how and using which powers God cast out Adam, what can God do and what is nature of Universe. Genesis tells us a simple and meaningful story of man's disobedience to God, and it takes only couple of Calvinist apologists to make this beautiful story into a theological nightmare.

[Neo]

(04-16-2016 10:23 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

This is an unfounded assertion. They have all of the markings of religion. Kabbalah is religion. For the record, there are other materialist religions, primarily focused on utopian results, that can get away with atheistic trappings as well. When your religion primarily concerns what occurs on Earth, it's trivial to paint yourself as non-religion to no effect on whatever your philosophy and agenda is.

Freemasonry does have religious aspects, yet I still don't consider it a religion. The masons that I grew up with were told to put the responsibilities of their church/community ahead of those to the fraternity. I witnessed this not just by words, but through their actions. Masonry does talk about a journey to 'light', yet this is a personal endeavor and it is up to the individual to choose his pathway towards it. I've never heard of a religion operate like this as they are much more dogmatic.

Could the guys I know be lying? It's possible, I consider it very unlikely considering knowing them and their families for 10+ years.

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But not Freemasonic mythology. Calling something "not religion" doesn't mean that it isn't. When is the molten sea going to be forged, anyway?

Lodges have book clubs and they discuss esotericism yes, again it's up to the member to decide his involvement in whether or not he wants to pursue these studies. When I visited a lodge I asked this question point blank, the master of the lodge responded that for the rituals to make sense, a man must believe in a supreme being and be of a good moral character. No study of esoteric philosophy is necessary now or in the future. He may have just been referring to the first three degrees, it may be different with the Scottish and York Rites, and I didn't get into the subject deeper.

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Every shady group under the sun appeals to "documented hoaxes" to excuse leaks, which are usually "documented" primarily by them.

Except that this one was documented by the press and the Roman Catholic church, the other group that Taxil slandered, and a group that historically has been extremely critical towards Freemasonry.

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The pentagram is astrological. Using the Christian "Satanist" straw-man to specifically disprove any mention of ill intention isn't exactly convincing. Not being specifically "Satanist" (whatever that means to you) doesn't imply innocence.

My goal was mainly to dispute that the 'evidence' that they are devil worshipers and luciferian is bunk.

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That's not an excuse for ignoring any particular agenda. One agenda is not like the other.

We can only speculate what their agenda is if any. I just don't see evidence for a grand conspiracy here. I will concede that the organization has been alleged to be involved in some nefarious deeds over the years, I'll have to do more research to separate fact from fiction.

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It is different because we are talking about a private, secretive, quasi-religious or religious organization, with deep penetration into politics and police (and likely higher), influencing mechanisms of power. At those levels, it's not the same as Johnny hiring Chuckie to totes kill it in automotive sales with him.

Again I just don't see the grand conspiracy. The last Freemason president was Gerald Ford and membership numbers have been decreasing from their peak which was in the 1950s. But just by having worked in large organizations, there are disagreements on every level, every day, going on constantly. It's just human nature. It's hard to fathom that all the lodges and their leadership will somehow agree to band together and use their might to influence the world.

In fact, after the Morgan incident (cited above by thoughtgypsy) in 1843 an attempt to build unity between grand lodges failed since at that time there was no way which lodges could contact all others at the same time. Further, there was splintering between American lodges and European ones, hence differences that have been carried on to this day(some European lodges accept atheists)

Point being that what people call Freemasonry consists of many different types of Masonries of which many choose to ignore or even disavow each other.

I just find it hard to believe, that a shrinking group like the masons which is having trouble maintaining it's membership is conspiring with the power elite. It does seem that lodges seem like a network of conspiracy cells, the practical reality is that most lodges don't like taking orders even from their own grand lodge.

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I see it as 100% different. Again, I refer you to the secrecy combined with the obvious influence.

Not to get into a pissing match over this. This is merely my opinion.

Not at all, we're just debating respectfully. This has been an interesting thread and discussion and I value your posts and opinion.

[Saga]

(04-19-2016 01:25 PM)thoughtgypsy Wrote:  

One of the earliest recorded men to break from the order was the Egyptian Pharoah Akhenaten. As was tradition, upon becoming Pharoah, the priest class inducted him into their true religious beliefs, a reverence for the light bringing sun god Aten. The priest class regarded the majority of common people as "profane", and concealed their true religious beliefs to the masses while encouraging a polythiestic worship they believed was heretical to their true god. Akhenaten felt this secrecy was unjust, and sought to encourage worship of Aten amongst his citizens while reigning in the power of the priest class, which he believed to be deceptive.

Upon his death, the priest class quickly reinstated polythiesm and sought to defame the actions of Akhenaten during his rule. Akhenaten, and some of his lineage were erased from the official lists of Pharaohs. Some believe this was an attempt to destroy any homage to Atenism from the historical record.

What evidence is there to support the assertion that Aten worship was the priesthood's "true religious beliefs"?

Aten had been a deity in the Egyptian pantheon for some time prior to Akhenaten, but he was treated as one of many others, definitely not as a "one true god". There's no evidence of this kind of monotheistic Aten worship before Akhenaten, and it's most likely that that particular philosophy originated with Akhenaten himself or those closest to him (including Nefertiti who appears to have strongly encouraged him in this). The appearance of Aten before Akhenaten was also more in line with other Egyptian deities, but this suddenly changed at around the time of his reign, likely another of Akhenaten's own innovations. His promotion of a radically new and unparalleled artistic style and the building of a completely new capital city, Amarna, and the abandonment of it soon after his rule ended supports this. Likewise, there's no evidence that he based his religious policy on the grounds of anything other than his own inclinations, and certainly not some idea of social justice (which, if the layout of Amarna is anything to go by, he clearly didn't believe in).

As for Akhenaten breaking from "the order", that doesn't match with what we know about him. His reign was autocratic, even by the standards of the day.

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Where it becomes even more unusual is when these symbols, such as serprent worship, appear in pre Christian times. The ancient egyptians often used the twin serpent caduceus symbol (which is often seen in the American medical field, and arising from the crotch in baphomet depictions) in their inscriptions. Serpent worship appears in many other ancient religions, particularly among the priestly caste.

The caduceus was a Greek symbol associated with Hermes, it wasn't an attribute of serpent worship. Its use in the American medical field is the result of a confusion with the more appropriate Rod of Asclepius (which unlike the caduceus was actually a symbol of healing). The Greeks and Romans didn't worship snakes but instead employed them in their religious iconography along with many other animals. What you're asserting would be like saying that because they worshiped Artemis or Diana, they also worshiped deer, which they didn't.

[Four_Strong_Winds]

Magick, the esoteric, and the occult - it's better to make 3 separate threads i think, otherwise you're going to have ritual magicians here talking to general people who are interested in occult topics, secret societies etc (as has been seen)

secret societies i dont know much about (freemasonry etc) nor general esotericism , but i used to practice "magick"
i would say make a thread just for magick

[Nitro]

(04-19-2016 01:25 PM)thoughtgypsy Wrote:  

(04-18-2016 04:24 PM)Nitro Wrote:  

I've heard two opinions on Freemasons - 1. Evil and worship Lucifer as their real God 2. Really just a boy's club that comes with a lot of expenses via fees and donations.

Come on, your motives are laughably obvious here. You're attempting to discredit rational discussion of their (freemasons) stated religious affiliation, while trumpeting their public relations front as their only design.

I'm coming to discredit rational discussion? Dude, why are you offended? I just came to this thread finding it a "refresher" from the norm typically discussed here, and made a post of the main summaries I've found of Freemasonry from all that I've seen on it. That's all. It seems like you really just made the false assumption that cause I'm a new member with just one rep point that I must be a troll.

I'm not.

[thoughtgypsy]

Late President John F. Kennedy, April 27, 1961:

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The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it. Even today, there is little value in opposing the threat of a closed society by imitating its arbitrary restrictions. Even today, there is little value in insuring the survival of our nation if our traditions do not survive with it. And there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon by those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment. That I do not intend to permit to the extent that it is in my control. And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should interpret my words here tonight as an excuse to censor the news, to stifle dissent, to cover up our mistakes or to withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know.

But I do ask every publisher, every editor, and every newsman in the nation to reexamine his own standards, and to recognize the nature of our country's peril. In time of war, the government and the press have customarily joined in an effort based largely on self-discipline, to prevent unauthorized disclosures to the enemy. In time of "clear and present danger," the courts have held that even the privileged rights of the First Amendment must yield to the public's need for national security.
Today no war has been declared--and however fierce the struggle may be, it may never be declared in the traditional fashion. Our way of life is under attack. Those who make themselves our enemy are advancing around the globe. The survival of our friends is in danger. And yet no war has been declared, no borders have been crossed by marching troops, no missiles have been fired.

If the press is awaiting a declaration of war before it imposes the self-discipline of combat conditions, then I can only say that no war ever posed a greater threat to our security. If you are awaiting a finding of "clear and present danger," then I can only say that the danger has never been more clear and its presence has never been more imminent.

It requires a change in outlook, a change in tactics, a change in missions--by the government, by the people, by every businessman or labor leader, and by every newspaper. For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations.
Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed. It conducts the Cold War, in short, with a war-time discipline no democracy would ever hope or wish to match.

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Research/Resea...10427.aspx

[YoungBlade]

Reviving this thread as I came across a (somewhat rambling) essay on the new horror film The Witch (stylized as The VVitch).

Link to the article

Some gems:

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The attraction for the metal artist in the Left Hand Path, whether the aspiring adept wishes to call it Satanism or otherwise, lies in its unabashed mockery of everything this decadent civilization and rotten society stands for while clearly being a product of decomposition. The history of the abstract Left Hand Path is a long and complex one, popping up in different cultures in accordance to local traditions. Some say it stems ultimately from extremely ancient ones in proto-historical epochs. The superficial anti-Christian imagery is not as important as the deeper psychological implications, which far from being atheistic or narcissistically self-adoring, come together in forming a much more complex but ever-mysterious picture of the universe as seen through the eyes of MAN.

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Reality is what it is, whether we like it or not, and however we perceive it, but this is understood by the minority only. The way to excellence lies in commitment in the right places, while discarding the useless, the dead ends, the illusory. This is realism. This is also what lies at the very core of metal. It is the reason why metal expression can blossom into anti-Christian blasphemy or Kristian (that Visigothic channeling of the esoteric traditions of Mithraism lying dormant in the bastard child of Judaism) devotion, in the reveling of the destruction of the weak or in the forceful overcoming of the tyrannical. Heads and tales, tales and heads.

As I said, it rambles. The thesis is that the movie demonstrates that those with true power beyond common knowledge will work to conceal it, either by vanishing, overshadowing, or mocking the source of power.

[dtpilgrim]

I wanted to resurrect this thread with a few musings.

1) Magick's View On Cause & Effect

I only recently came across theories on magick, before then I had no idea what it was. One consensus view on magick is "affecting change in accordance with the will". Under this broad definition, goal-setting, writing down goals and positive affirmations are a form of magick. The "spell" is in writing down the goal or affirming it in your mind, which then goes into the subconscious. The intention then physically manifests after a passage of time. I find this can be rationally and psychologically explained: when you put a goal or suggestion in to the subconscious mind, you will simply "notice" avenues of opportunities to fulfilling that goal more easily, you are simply increasing the probability of the goal being fulfilled. Most people familiar with the "goal-setting" ethos as espoused by Brian Tracy, Jim Rohn, Tony Robbins, Napoleaon Hill et cetera can attest that it "works". Look up OTR's NIPS system in RooshVforum for a contemporary example.

Now follow me in this leap of logic. Something like goal-setting can work. Now most people will not consider this magick, though it does "fall" under magick based on the consensus definition of affecting change in accordance with the will. At the core it's simply a formula of [Cause]>[Process]>[Effect], with a working process in between. [Cause]: Writing down your goal or affirming your intention. [Process]: Subconscious is primed to seek solutions and is more attuned to rising opportunities. [Effect]: Physical manifestation of the desired goal. This makes sense so far right? HOWEVER... the leap of faith comes here. In my current understanding of magick, magick simply asserts that 1) we don't actually know what the true process is at work that manifests the result and 2) ANY causal relationship is enough to activate the cause&effect principle.

A quick interlude: "cause&effect" is one of the 7 hermetic principles discussed in the "Kybalion". The hermetic principles can be seen as the "natural law's" of the universe, sort of the "physics of reality" or "physics of consciousness".

Now what magick asserts is that you can take "any" ritual, spell, or whatever and DECIDE it means [CauseX] and still get an [Effect]. So for example you can draw a pentagram on the floor and offer a basket of fruit to the god Tlaloc and DECIDE this [Cause] means: "I am going to make $10.000 this quarter". Magick is basically about any spell/ritual having the same power and effect. The formula looks like this:

[Cause]Write down I make $10.000 by August 2018 [Process]>The psychological subconscious process of goal setting [Effect]> Physical manifestation of 10k
[Cause]Draw pentagram and offer a basket of fruit [Process]>?????? (we don't actually know) [Effect]> Physical manifestion of 10k

Now whether magick is true or not, this is essentially what it asserts. That, due to the omnipresence of the principle of cause&effect in this universe, you can actually apply a ritual or spell INSTEAD of something that seems "realistically" more effective, and get the same or even a better result.

[loremipsum]

(05-03-2018 05:12 AM)dtpilgrim Wrote:  

I wanted to resurrect this thread with a few musings.


Now what magick asserts is that you can take "any" ritual, spell, or whatever and DECIDE it means [CauseX] and still get an [Effect]. So for example you can draw a pentagram on the floor and offer a basket of fruit to the god Tlaloc and DECIDE this [Cause] means: "I am going to make $10.000 this quarter". Magick is basically about any spell/ritual having the same power and effect. The formula looks like this:

[Cause]Write down I make $10.000 by August 2018 [Process]>The psychological subconscious process of goal setting [Effect]> Physical manifestation of 10k
[Cause]Draw pentagram and offer a basket of fruit [Process]>?????? (we don't actually know) [Effect]> Physical manifestion of 10k

Now whether magick is true or not, this is essentially what it asserts. That, due to the omnipresence of the principle of cause&effect in this universe, you can actually apply a ritual or spell INSTEAD of something that seems "realistically" more effective, and get the same or even a better result.

What is still a question to me is what are the goetian demons and why are there such specific and detailed esoteric means of invoking them. Some say it's because the held secrecy and rituals are ways of making the thoughtform more powerful by giving it more importance and focus. Some say they are activating certain parts of brain.

[sterling_archer]

Lets ask one of the most despised men, Aleister Crowley, what he thinks magick is...

"Science and Art that provokes Change in conformity with the Will."

"All intentional acts are acts of magic."

"Anyone who is forced from his own course, either through not understanding himself, or through external opposition, comes into conflict with the order of the Universe."

"Magick is the Science of understanding one’s self and one’s own situation. It is the art of applying this knowledge in action."

Now, everyone who considers himself an occultist worth his salt will immediately get that magick is pretty much commonly used in our life. Literally, some people do it daily. Does it involve summoning of some entities? It might, but it doesn't have to.
If someone is to watch youtube videos on this matter, I recommend Styxhexenhammer666. If you manage to not be repulsed by his low T, weak looking appearance, you will enjoy huge amount of information and knowledge that guy possesses.