[Handsome Creepy Eel]

What I don't get about this shameful agreement from the Greek side is: why this sudden change? Were Tsipras and Varoufakis suddenly bribed with villas? Their lives were threatened? Were they afraid of being blamed for the hard times immediately after Grexit? Or they were shills right from the start?

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(02-23-2015 06:17 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

What I don't get about this shameful agreement from the Greek side is: why this sudden change? Were Tsipras and Varoufakis suddenly bribed with villas? Their lives were threatened? Were they afraid of being blamed for the hard times immediately after Grexit? Or they were shills right from the start?

Who cares? Most people don't know how deep the control structure goes.

Even if they were somewhat sincere, what would most people do when faced either with threats of having their family members die of "strange accidents" coupled with an incentive to have 10-20 mio. $ transferred to an offshore account or getting a lucrative job afterwards that would pay millions for little work?

I think that 99,99% of the people would take the cash and let it be. Sometimes you have blokes who push through, but that's what countries have secret services for. The James Bond crap is only for the sheep below.

I have links somewhere about a book written a long time ago - the title was something like "How to cause a heart attack" - Book 1 and book 2 - heh.

[Guitarman]

I don't doubt that our so called "democratic" governments would assassinate undesirable trouble makers. But this frozen poison dart seems too far fetched. The dart would melt in the gun or in flight. There are easier ways the powers that be could poison somebody.

[lowside]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-24...rm-package

The people of Greece were tricked into voting for Syriza believing something would change. But they have no real choice (neither do we). So we're right back where we started.

Was so hoping for a default. But realistically, this is never going to happen. At least not in the short term.

[Guitarman]

There can be no change while Greece remains in the Eurozone and within the EU. Grexit, default and a return to the Drachma are the only real solutions.

[berserk]

(02-22-2015 07:22 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

As Syriza betrays their people, the average Greek who wants out of the EU becomes more extreme and will only see Golden Dawn as the only nationalistic answer.

The same is happening and will happen in the rest of Europe. Leftist parties get one last chance, blow it and then it's far right parties for the foreseeable future. Front National are looking to be the largest french party now after the utter failure of socialist Hollande.

And most of these parties are talking with Putin.

[YossariansRight]

Came across this today. The new Greek government is playing the "Germany/World War II crimes" card to not repay their debts.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150322...3cef2.html

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(03-22-2015 02:54 PM)YossariansRight Wrote:  

Came across this today. The new Greek government is saying that if Germany doesn't confront their World War II crimes, it cannot demand other countries (Greece) to repay their debts.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150322...3cef2.html

Why not ask the Turks and the Ottoman empire for repayment and the Turks demand reparations for Alexander the Great?

More bullshit.... Syriza has already sold out the Greek people - they just don't know it. The rest is just dumb blunder.

[YossariansRight]

(03-22-2015 02:58 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(03-22-2015 02:54 PM)YossariansRight Wrote:  

Came across this today. The new Greek government is saying that if Germany doesn't confront their World War II crimes, it cannot demand other countries (Greece) to repay their debts.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150322...3cef2.html

Why not ask the Turks and the Ottoman empire for repayment and the Turks demand reparations for Alexander the Great?

More bullshit.... Syriza has already sold out the Greek people - they just don't know it. The rest is just dumb blunder.

Good points. Yes. It's all fodder 'cause the sellout has been done.

[poutsara]

(03-22-2015 03:09 PM)YossariansRight Wrote:  

(03-22-2015 02:58 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(03-22-2015 02:54 PM)YossariansRight Wrote:  

Came across this today. The new Greek government is saying that if Germany doesn't confront their World War II crimes, it cannot demand other countries (Greece) to repay their debts.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150322...3cef2.html

Why not ask the Turks and the Ottoman empire for repayment and the Turks demand reparations for Alexander the Great?

Good points. Yes. It's all fodder 'cause the sellout has been done.

I disagree. Greece has legitimate claim based on German forced loans during World War 2, not to mention direct reparations.

There is a lot to talk about here, beyond the scope of this forum. But rest assured Germany has successfully swept this under the rug for decades. Syriza is justified in their claim, albeit unlikely to get anywhere with it.

There are people in Greece living now who were there when Germany invaded, followed by a famine during the occupation, followed by civil war. A significant percent of the population died and more were displaced. This was a direct effect of German aggression that arguably Greece has not recovered from. It's laughable to compare this to the Ottoman Empire occupation - the world war is still fresh in the blood of people still living, not to mention their children and grandchildren.

By the way, March 25th is this week.

[eradicator]

(03-23-2015 02:13 AM)poutsara Wrote:  

(03-22-2015 03:09 PM)YossariansRight Wrote:  

(03-22-2015 02:58 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(03-22-2015 02:54 PM)YossariansRight Wrote:  

Came across this today. The new Greek government is saying that if Germany doesn't confront their World War II crimes, it cannot demand other countries (Greece) to repay their debts.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150322...3cef2.html

Why not ask the Turks and the Ottoman empire for repayment and the Turks demand reparations for Alexander the Great?

Good points. Yes. It's all fodder 'cause the sellout has been done.

I disagree. Greece has legitimate claim based on German forced loans during World War 2, not to mention direct reparations.

Nonsense. Look at the causes for world war 2: one of the lead causes was that germany was forced to pay reparations for world war 1. part of the agreement for the end of world war 2 was that there would be no more reparations, as to avoid a world war 3.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

All communist countries in Europe could demand reparations from Russia and frankly Russian people could demand those from their elites as well since they did not want the shitty regime either.

If a country is left only accusing another country for their own short-comings, then know that you have been given a shit-sandwich and are willingly eating it. Also you would be surprised to know that many people in Germany back then did not feel like going to war. Refusal to do so would have meant execution of your family and yourself - yeah was all great fun for them.

Syriza could demand real changes:

+ say fuck you to banks and say you don't pay
+ modernize the country
+ clamp down on top plutocracy hard

And most importantly:

+ create an independent central bank
+ issue interest free sovereign money
+ leave the EU ASAP

The last 3 steps would be literally deadly for any politician attempting to implement that.



And yes - those measures would create prosperity for the Greek people, but who cares - convince the sheep that forcing Germany to pay a couple billion will make things MUCH BETTER. That cash can be used to pay off some debt - will cut it from 150% to 100% of GDP - that will improve matters indeed.


Never ever listen to any politician demanding old-time reparations - chances are it's only ending up being pulled from people who had nothing to do with it. It reminds me of some of the reparations that some black people demand of the whites.

The truth is that only 1.6% of the population owned slaves and in addition to that those very same 1.6% owned white slaves up until 1800 as well. In fact the first 500.000 slaves in the US were almost exclusively white.

So who do you demand those reparations from? Trust me - it will be the never-owning 98,4% white population paying - even worse it will be partly the descendants of white slaves paying as well.

The past is past and the real profiteers of wars are never really the entire people. Talks of reparations create a victim mentality and should be avoided.

[turuk]

Greece should be kicked out of the EU and out of Europe. This country is a Trojan horse and an unreliable country. They threatened to release ISIS refugees into Europe.

[Samseau]

(03-23-2015 07:56 AM)turuk Wrote:  

Greece should be kicked out of the EU and out of Europe. This country is a Trojan horse and an unreliable country. They threatened to release ISIS refugees into Europe.

Yeah, well, it's the EU that's responsible for creating the open borders mess in the first place.

[Benoit]

Looks like Syriza is ready to fall in line and acknowledge their EU masters:

Greece moves to sideline Varoufakis after reform talks fiasco

Quote:

Varoufakis, who became an instant celebrity in the early days of the Tsipras government with his tie-less look and blunt attack on austerity policies, has seen his star wane in recent weeks and critics have called him a liability in the talks.

At Riga on Friday, he was sharply criticized by fellow euro zone finance ministers for both his lecturing style and failure to produce reforms demanded by lenders.

He was later taken to task by the media after he failed to appear at a state dinner after the meeting. He responded by tweeting a quotation by former U.S. president Franklin Roosevelt which read: "They are unanimous in their hate for me; and I welcome their hatred."

Varoufakis seems like he has genuine integrity but others on his own side are more easily bought off.
Like they say at the end of Rocky, "He doesn't know it's a damn show! He thinks it's a damn fight!"

[HighSpeed_LowDrag]

Looks like it might be end of the line for the Greeks soon enough: BBC News

Quote:

Greece cannot make a repayment to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) due on 5 June as it does not have the money, the interior minister says.

"The four instalments for the IMF in June are €1.6bn, this money will not be given and is not there to be given," Nikos Voutsis told Greek TV.

Greece has to come to a deal with the IMF and EU to secure the final tranche of its bailout from the institutions.

The finance minister meanwhile told the BBC that progress was being made.

Yanis Varoufakis said Greece had worked hard to meet its end of the deal with its lenders, and that now it was up to the international institutions to reciprocate.

"Greece has made enormous strides at reaching a deal," he told the Andrew Marr Show.

"It is now up to institutions to do their bit. We have met them three-quarters of the way, they need to meet us one-quarter of the way."

Analysis: Joe Lynam, BBC business correspondent

The Greek interior minister Nikos Voutsis is "of the far left" in a hard left-wing Syriza party but should not be disregarded as on the fringe, or irrelevant, within the government.

He is one of a number of different voices around the cabinet table with varying degrees of influence. So his comments that Greece cannot and will not pay the IMF €1.6bn next month should not be fully discounted.

There is a theory that the Prime minister Alexis Tsipras allows his ministers to let off steam in interviews in order to give him leverage when negotiating with creditors in Brussels or Berlin.

It is also true that the Greek Finance Minister Varoufakis has been sidelined by Athens. All areas of discussion with the troika (EC, ECB and IMF), must be agreed by Mr Tsipras personally.

Currency issues

The Greek government, EU and IMF have been locked in negotiations for four months over economic reforms the IMF and EU say must be implemented before more money is made available.

Greece's last cash injection from its international creditors was in August and the final €7.2bn instalment from its two €240bn EU-IMF bailouts is now seen as vital.
But first it has to meet the 5 June repayment deadline. If it fails to come to a deal with its partners, there is a fear it could default on its loans.

That could push the Greek government towards leaving the single currency, otherwise known as Grexit.

"It would be a disaster for everyone involved," said Mr Varoufakis

"It would be a disaster primarily for the Greek social economy, but it would also be the beginning of the end of the common currency project in Europe.

"Once you infuse into people's minds, into investors' minds, the idea that the euro is not indivisible, it will be only a matter of time before the whole thing begins to unravel."

Greece has been shut out of bond markets, and with the current deadlock Athens has been struggling to meet debt obligations and to pay public sector wages and pensions.

[Foolsgo1d]

Greece has already used an IMF emergency fund to pay off something else so who knows where it will come from. Russia might want to irk the EU and give them cash along with China. Both of them can go and tell the UN "see, we are helping these people" and negotiate for favourable goodies in the future. I've no doubt Putin and the Chinese would enjoy increasing leverage in Europe against the US and Britain.

Afterall, Russia came second in Eurovision

In all seriousness however, Greece has been dealt a shit sandwich the likes they will keep on paying well into another generation or two. That is unfair and unsustainable.

For one the men of Greece will burn it down to the ground before they sacrifice themselves on the altar of the EU and IMF

2) It is very dangerous to have a country in a strategic position undergo tremendous economic and social upheaval. It breeds resentment, violence and a sense that life is cheap. You can bet there will be entities who will take advantage of this situation.

Do we really want the likes of ISIS having access to the EU through Greece? Mass waves of immigrants fleeing Africa/ME?

These problems are not instant but over time, say 15-20 years you will see a very different picture. Just look at the past 14 years to see how things change.

[Eskhander]

So it looks like winning the election is the only noteworthy thing Syriza has done.

[Samseau]

Golden Dawn is probably getting ready to take over.