[Gopnik]

Meanwhile, Pablo Iglesias, leader of far left political party "Podemos", a guy who has the potential to become Spain's next leader has been praising Syriza's programme and even met Alexis Tsipras several times. Southern Europe has clearly had enough of Angela Merkel...

[Saweeep]

(01-27-2015 09:13 AM)Luisaceo Wrote:  

Meanwhile, Pablo Iglesias, leader of far left political party "Podemos", a guy who has the potential to become Spain's next leader has been praising Syriza's programme and even met Alexis Tsipras several times. Southern Europe has clearly had enough of Angela Merkel...

They like her money though!

(To be fair Germany's industries have done pretty well out of the Eurozone).

[Feisbook Control]

(01-27-2015 02:54 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Feisbook Control, given that Greeks aren't Germans (with which I 100% agree), doesn't it make it even more imperative to get them into their own free-floating currency? Surely anything is better than the current situation with being locked into the euro.

I agree.

Quote:

In other words, a corrupt and inefficient Greece with drachma is still better off than a corrupt and inefficient Greece with euro, or even than an improved Greece (i.e. much less corrupt and inefficient than now) with euro. There are so many things wrong with being locked into an unrealistic exchange rate and no monetary sovereignity that I just don't see how the "Greece is corrupt/lazy" argument applies here.

I agree with everything but the last sentence.

Quote:

No matter how you weigh the issues, the problem is primarily caused by the euro, and that's the problem that needs to be solved first. Same goes for Spain and Portugal.

I agree, but getting off the euro is not going to be a silver bullet. That's where Syriza and their supporters are out to lunch, literally! There seems to be a collective delusion that they are just, and can be, a little Liechtenstein, only with beaches and long lunches. Ron Paul could come and drop gold bullion out of the back of a cargo plane and I'd put money on the fact that twenty years after getting off the euro, Greece would still be a veritable pig sty where the most efficient means of transport would be a donkey on a dirt road...if you could rouse its owner from his third three hour cup of coffee for the day and seven hundredth game of backgammon.

[LouEvilSlugger]

(01-27-2015 09:47 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

They like her money though!

(To be fair Germany's industries have done pretty well out of the Eurozone).

Like Germany never got any bailout money... Hint: 1953.

[Wreckingball]

(01-27-2015 09:13 AM)Luisaceo Wrote:  

Meanwhile, Pablo Iglesias, leader of far left political party "Podemos", a guy who has the potential to become Spain's next leader has been praising Syriza's programme and even met Alexis Tsipras several times. Southern Europe has clearly had enough of Angela Merkel...

Chavez advisors trying to continue some revolution in Europe.
If I had two bullets and had the option to choose between Bin Laden, Bieber and Mr. Iglesias I would shoot that piece of shit Iglesias twice.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(01-27-2015 07:23 AM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

Yes, but the Greeks are not Germans and if I am not mistaken the USA and European allies needed Germany on-side and on its feet to counter the Russians.

Germans are industrious and are capable of working towards a set goal. Try telling that to the countries in the Med. They rely on other peoples money and exquisite valuables such as bags, the sun, nice beaches, food and ancient buildings.

If it had been up to me at the end of WW2, I would have given Germany the full Carthage treatment, including salting the fertile fields, and ended it as a nation. The only thing the German people were sorry about is that they lost. Fuck them.
They are sanctimonious and hypocritical.
They are also playing a cynical game of real politik. They publicly claim that their "austerity" policies are about being fair and promoting the virtues of German hard work and saving, while punishing the Greek/Spanish/Italian vices of profligate spending, laziness, and corruption.
This is utter hogwash. The only thing they care about is getting their banks off the hook for the loans they made irresponsibly, while at the same time maintaining a straight jacket of control over EU monetary policy on terms that favor its economic export interests and are impossible for other countries. If Greece is destroyed, and if tens of millions of people have their lives ruined in Italy and Spain, well, then fuck them, Deutschland über alles!

[johngouts]

Hello there guys, how's it goin'? I'm Greek & I hope I can contribute to your conversation with my own experience to the matter:
Most of you guys are right about us, unfortunately: since the democracy days & the entry to the EU (1980 & so on), we have become inefficient, corrupt & lazy. All we wanted is easy money, food & pussy without working hard for it, but the craziest thing is we got it! EU provided for that with billions of money (euros)! Germany especially benefited from that getting huge contracts & exports, bribing everyone they could (and they're shoving it now down our asses with their loan-shark 7% interest money)
Globalization & illegal immigrants fucked up our culture & lifestyle, politicians are drones feeding off society, giving "favours" a la Mafia to those who don't deserve them, all the scandals went unpunished because simply noone gave a shit. We even gave up on growing things & feeding ourselves (counter-productivity) simply because imports are an easier & cheaper way!
So now, what do we do? We are giving the government to people who promise the "good ol days" but have no clue how to do that! Brilliant, right?
Economical crisis made us poorer but not wiser, our way of thinking things sadly hasn't changed much. The best parts of our society (young unmarried scientists with high IQ & will to work) have already left the country disgusted & hurt because they had shitty jobs or are jobless (like me). The rest still have the same fucked-up mentality (easy money-fun-food-pussy, minimum effort), while the EU (ie Germans) hypocrites & no-good parasite Greek politicians give them promises & expensive loans in order just to survive & at the same time fuck them in the ass! Change of mentality, especially in the Balkans, is an awfully long procedure...
Fact is forces at work are way too much for such a small country, but people never fought back this crap; in fact they embraced it like Heaven on Earth! But now, the weak pay the price (but still don't give a fuck) & the guilty escape punishment...Brave new world, guys!

[Dismal Operator]

Syriza wants to restructure the debt they took on in the last few years, which basically ended up in the hands of the oligarchs. I don't blame them, and I'd have no issues if they even defaulted on all that debt.

The issue is that they want to turn around and borrow more money to rehire bureaucrats, jack up the minimum wage, increase regulations, and turn the welfare dial back up to 11. In other words, they want to replace unproductive debt with more unproductive debt, just of a different sort. That's no solution, and as a result they'll be right back in dire straits before long.

The comparison to German reconstruction isn't a good one for that reason. If Greece got a similar deal to the London Debt Agreement, they aren't going to use that freedom to go and build an industrial powerhouse like the Germans did. Syriza is pretty much saying they're going to do the exact opposite.

Going back to the drachma is at best a cosmetic solution. The aim there would be to devalue and export, but that strategy, while popular, is short lived and specific to a small subset of the economy. It's essentially a redistribution from all non-exporters who hold the currency to the export class. Which is why it's always export industries which are at the front and center of any devaluation campaign, assuming there is anything of value to export in the first place. Over the long run it doesn't benefit the economy as a whole. What is beneficial to an economy is production to a standard which doesn't require currency gimmicks to drum up interest.

The fundamental problem with Greece is not that they're lazy, it's that they're not productive, which are two different things. Fixing that is going to require doing things that pretty much nobody wants to do. The Troika isn't going to like the fact that some sort of default/massive restructuring is necessary. The politicians won't like the fact that all of the fairy tales they tell the public will never come to fruition, and a drastic reduction in regulation and welfare payments, while embracing freer markets is the real path forward. The average Greek person won't like the fact that massive change, even if it's the destruction of a broken system, probably means things might get worse before they get better.

[N°6]

Austerity, the transfer of wealth from the poor to rich to pay for the folly of the rich.

Why is this acceptable in any country?

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(01-27-2015 05:29 PM)N°6 Wrote:  

Austerity, the transfer of wealth from the poor to rich to pay for the folly of the rich.

Why is this acceptable in any country?

Bill Still - money reformer - weighed in on the issue:

What the party Greek politician said sounds actually quite sensible that they want to break up the hegemony between bankers, developers and media owners.

They want to destroy the basis of that system - I don't see how they can do that frankly without leaving the EU and installing an interest-free money system. Chances for that are zero in my opinion and the politicians in Greece are nowhere close to make such a step.

[Foolsgo1d]

Is Greece a good example of socialism projects which await those countries which go down that route?

Here in the UK there are actually people hoping to vote the Greens, Labour and SNP. This would be worse than Syriza.

[Mekorig]

(01-26-2015 05:24 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  

You are lazy when:
You have two half days per week and each is paid as one full day.
On the full days you work as much as on the half days.
The office hours are from 9-17 and it opens at 10 (and then they have coffee) and closes at 15(and then you have another coffee).
You cannot fire workers that are not working, because they will put chains on your door and have unions on your door.

You are poor when:
You don't produce enough to reach the break even.
Tuition is absolutely free for everyone (Greek and non-Greek), even though the costs are gigantic.
You evade taxes like a boss. Covering your illegal pool with some material so that id doesnt show on a satellite picture.

You almost described Argentina`s public employees.


Edit: BTW, this "Podemos" guys in Spain, got at least 3.7M dollars in the last 10 years from Hugito Chavez goverment. And now looks like the new Foreign Relations minister for this Syriza guys is in close contact with Dugin and other rusian nationalists.

[Feisbook Control]

Things are getting interesting:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-27...ard-russia

*The first meeting with a foreign ambassador was with the Russian ambassador
*A deal to privatise the port has been stopped
*The layoffs for public service workers will be reversed
*The new foreign minister has previously written that sanctions against Russia aren't in Greece's interests and instead, people should be trying to stop the transformation of the EU into "an idiosyncratic empire, under the rule of Germany"
*The new foreign minister is going to Brussels today (Thursday) for a meeting aimed at introducing additional sanctions on Russia, and the Greek government has already indicated its disagreement with the proposal

[Brian Boru]

Potential Russian intrigues?

The host is a bit eccentric, but his guest seems quite knowledgeable.

[Phoenix]

(01-27-2015 11:18 AM)johngouts Wrote:  

All we wanted is easy money, food & pussy without working hard for it, but the craziest thing is we got it!

How did the governments help you get easier pussy?

[freeuser]

(01-28-2015 09:21 PM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

Things are getting interesting:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-27...ard-russia

*The first meeting with a foreign ambassador was with the Russian ambassador
*A deal to privatise the port has been stopped
*The layoffs for public service workers will be reversed
*The new foreign minister has previously written that sanctions against Russia aren't in Greece's interests and instead, people should be trying to stop the transformation of the EU into "an idiosyncratic empire, under the rule of Germany"
*The new foreign minister is going to Brussels today (Thursday) for a meeting aimed at introducing additional sanctions on Russia, and the Greek government has already indicated its disagreement with the proposal

Russia is not only facing economic collapse, it´s also pretty much a pariah state right now. I know this hurts the Putin lovers (and I admit that there is a lot that I admire about him myself) here at the forum, but it´s not the best partner right now, if you are in need of fresh money.

[Foolsgo1d]

An Alliance between Greece, Russia, Latvia etc would stir the EU up I think. Merkel wants to bring these lapdogs to heel and beg for more.

[Wreckingball]

(01-29-2015 08:10 AM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

An Alliance between Greece, Russia, Latvia etc would stir the EU up I think. Merkel wants to bring these lapdogs to heel and beg for more.

23. Throw your soldiers into positions whence there
is no escape, and they will prefer death to flight.
If they will face death, there is nothing they may
not achieve. Officers and men alike will put forth
their uttermost strength.

24. Soldiers when in desperate straits lose
the sense of fear. If there is no place of refuge,
they will stand firm. If they are in hostile country,
they will show a stubborn front. If there is no help
for it, they will fight hard.

If Greeks are good at something, is at having pride on being Greeks. They are very very Nationalists (not in the political sense). And they are as stubborn as it gets.

[johngouts]

(01-29-2015 07:04 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(01-27-2015 11:18 AM)johngouts Wrote:  

All we wanted is easy money, food & pussy without working hard for it, but the craziest thing is we got it!

How did the governments help you get easier pussy?

Lots of non-earned money from EU & Greek politicians to the people, easily bought pussy (& a whole other bunch of stuff) for people. Spoiled People, Zero Level of Productivity & Efficiency. Come & play it big spender, especially in crisis-plagued cities (Athens-Thessaloniki), & find out by yourself, although I guess other places of the world would be far more value for your bucks...

[Constitution45]

From the looks of thing Syriza don't affiliate themselves with identity politics which the left wing do in the Anglosphere. Strong distinction to be made here, as there are old school leftists are anti liberalism and internationalism who would actually be in opposition to the SJW crowd. A while back the British labour party went over to Croatia to speak to the socialist party present there, and came back sobbing; because the Croatian socialists pretty much said they hated gays and didn't want to welcome any LGBT community into their country.

All it takes is a country like Greece to go off the rails and the EU will be put into a difficult position. It can be said that Europe is too diverse, to pull off being a cohesive single federation, we are not a newly created country that is prepared to assimilate into one common identity; this is starting to deteriorate in the U.S.A as we can see. Greece is an Orthodox country, already there is a distinction in terms of civilisation reference points to be had here. Even the legal systems in catholic and protestant countries are different, with pragmatic protestantism and emotive catholicism.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

I don't think that's right, Constitution45. Our socialists (SDP-HNS) absolutely love gays, and are eager to take it up the ass at every opportunity. They even tried to obstruct and ban the recent referendum about adding the definition "Family unit consists of a man and a woman" to the Croatian constitution, and then villified anyone who supported it as nazis, bigots, savages, etc.

Maybe your labor party despaired over the referendum itself, not our socialists. That would make more sense.

[Constitution45]

(01-29-2015 01:29 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

I don't think that's right, Constitution45. Our socialists (SDP-HNS) absolutely love gays, and are eager to take it up the ass at every opportunity. They even tried to obstruct and ban the recent referendum about adding the definition "Family unit consists of a man and a woman" to the Croatian constitution, and then villified anyone who supported it as nazis, bigots, savages, etc.

Maybe your labor party despaired over the referendum itself, not our socialists. That would make more sense.

My mistake, I was going on this article I had read. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...lence.html

[solo]

Has anybody actually been to Greece and can report how the crisis has affected the market of picking up girls? Provider game should theoretically work pretty well.

[Wreckingball]

(01-29-2015 05:10 PM)solo Wrote:  

Has anybody actually been to Greece and can report how the crisis has affected the market of picking up girls? Provider game should theoretically work pretty well.

People that go to Greece generally go to islands, which are filled with tourists. You need to live in mainland Greece to experience that.

[N°6]

(01-28-2015 06:29 AM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

Is Greece a good example of socialism projects which await those countries which go down that route?

Here in the UK there are actually people hoping to vote the Greens, Labour and SNP. This would be worse than Syriza.

It wasn't socialism that put Greece into this position in the first place.

Goldman-Sachs that fiscal anointer of political leaders of all hues cooked Greece's books to get it into the Euro where it could borrow money that the ECB creates out of nothing at the same low usurious rates as the manufacuring German powerhouse.

It was finance-capital that destroyed Greece's economy and now the pendulum has just swung the other way.