[Specter]

http://daygame.com/cafe/index.html/topic,6196.0.html

This is truly disheartening for me since I'm a follower of his advice and practically read & watched all of his products. I know there are alot of frauds in the community and I thought he was one of the few really honest ones.

Daygame.com CEO Andy Yosha already has evidence of this issue and his site & fellow coaches have no association with him in making it. Hopefully, Tom T can explain himself after this incident and this is just a "one time" thing that he did for the business. I still have faith in his skill & teachings since I learned alot from him throughout my journey.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

Whoa - that is heavy - I actually like Tom Torrero's stuff and just listened to a Daygame.com podcast a few weeks ago.

But kudos for Andy from Daygame.com to disclose everything - I mean literally everything immediately and going public on that. RSD should go and learn from them.

Really stupid for Tom to do this, because I am sure that plenty of the credible guys there including Krauser have seen him in action or even seen girls he picked up.

What the fuck was he thinking?

Jeez - a PUA who is caught faking his infields is like a sharpshooter faking his shooting skills and then being paid to teach others on how to improve their skills. Credibility for a Dating Coach is an absolute must - it's better he gets worse infields with uglier girls than if he fakes it with a hottie.

[BodiPUA]

Don't for a minute think that Andy Yosha isn't having a massive mind-wank from all this given him and Tom fell out and Tom left the company.

The evidence looks pretty solid and I haven't spoken to Tom about it yet but....

Let me just reassure everyone and with 100% absolute certainty: Tom is the real deal. I have been on two game holidays with him, one to EE and one to France plus I have winged him several times in London. He has world class daygame skills, and I have personally seen him wow and charm many young, hot girls. The girls I saw him pull in EE were very hot. I have shared the same apartment as the guy and (sadly) heard him banging away in his bedroom on hot girls I saw him pull from daygame.

This is the weird thing. If Tom DID set up that video it must have been out of laziness or God knows what, but I have personally, with my own eyes, seen him do multiple sets way, way better than that in real life. The actual set on the video was pretty shit. I could go out with Tom and my iphone on Oxford Street over lunch and film something better than that. Madness.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(12-11-2014 04:13 AM)BodiPUA Wrote:  

Don't for a minute think that Andy Yosha isn't having a massive mind-wank from all this given him and Tom fell out and Tom left the company.

The evidence looks pretty solid and I haven't spoken to Tom about it yet but....

Let me just reassure everyone and with 100% absolute certainty: Tom is the real deal. I have been on two game holidays with him, one to EE and one to France plus I have winged him several times in London. He has world class daygame skills, and I have personally seen him wow and charm many young, hot girls. The girls I saw him pull in EE were very hot. I have shared the same apartment as the guy and (sadly) heard him banging away in his bedroom on hot girls I saw him pull from daygame.

This is the weird thing. If Tom DID set up that video it must have been out of laziness or God knows what, but I have personally, with my own eyes, seen him do multiple sets way, way better than that in real life. The actual set on the video was pretty shit. I could go out with Tom and my iphone on Oxford Street over lunch and film something better than that. Madness.

That's what I thought too frankly, because he not only posted complete audio infields which sounded real, but also he met so many other guys out there who could back up his stories.

It's not like some weird PUA or RVF member no one knows and no one met in real life.

What the fuck Tom? If you do a staged infield you gotta let the people know beforehand, that it's staged for learning purposes.

The only way to have this staged by a troll would be an elaborate plan involving an agency, an actress, faked mobile phone screenshots etc. Can be done, but that would cost bonkers and is very unlikely.

[Pride male]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!! It cant be!

[Distant Light]

(12-11-2014 04:13 AM)BodiPUA Wrote:  

Don't for a minute think that Andy Yosha isn't having a massive mind-wank from all this given him and Tom fell out and Tom left the company.

The evidence looks pretty solid and I haven't spoken to Tom about it yet but....

Let me just reassure everyone and with 100% absolute certainty: Tom is the real deal. I have been on two game holidays with him, one to EE and one to France plus I have winged him several times in London. He has world class daygame skills, and I have personally seen him wow and charm many young, hot girls. The girls I saw him pull in EE were very hot. I have shared the same apartment as the guy and (sadly) heard him banging away in his bedroom on hot girls I saw him pull from daygame.

This is the weird thing. If Tom DID set up that video it must have been out of laziness or God knows what, but I have personally, with my own eyes, seen him do multiple sets way, way better than that in real life. The actual set on the video was pretty shit. I could go out with Tom and my iphone on Oxford Street over lunch and film something better than that. Madness.

Although I never actually watched any of his pickup videos, I personally don't discredit him as I've seen his more lifestyle oriented videos which I thought were cool...

However, IMO it just shows a cutting corners marketing gimmicks which due to my love for prank channels and seeing some of the popular ones doing "fake" videos just to get more money/views kills my love/inspiration/motivation.

Him and Krauser still seem to be the only honest daygame oriented dudes about the amount of "effort" they have to put in to maintain a consistent sex life exclusively through daygame which was unheard of in the past.

[trainwreck]

I mean, props to these guys to the fact of being able to maintain a lifestyle paid by hunting pussy. But I imagine that to be a very empty type of lifestyle, I mean, look at how Yad looks and acts. They go from city to city, only focussing on pussy and living The guy talks with the softest girly voice and has a pretty big belly. He should take a few voice courses himself first. Andy seems to have his stuff on lockdown however.

Otherwise, their material is pretty legit.

[bojangles]

(12-11-2014 06:11 AM)trainwreck Wrote:  

I mean, props to these guys to the fact of being able to maintain a lifestyle paid by hunting pussy. But I imagine that to be a very empty type of lifestyle, I mean, look at how Yad looks and acts. They go from city to city, only focussing on pussy and living The guy talks with the softest girly voice and has a pretty big belly. He should take a few voice courses himself first. Andy seems to have his stuff on lockdown however.

Otherwise, their material is pretty legit.

Yad doesnt even approach girls, the guy is a loser playing that whole 'gay friend' persona.

I think Tom faked this, I like Tom's work and from what I've been told by Bodi and Krauser is that he's the real deal. I believe them both as I've seen them in action too.

A point to note, Andy Yosha and Tom split up their business association a while back, however the fake video clip is still being sold by Daygame.com as part of their DATM product, so he's still making money from the video so it's a bit hypocritical I'd say myself

link: http://forms.daygame.com/datmorder/
archived in case it's pulled after the fact: https://archive.today/kTA8k

[Simeon_Strangelight]

Krauser responded to the allegations on the Daygame.com forum.:

Quote:

"Lol coming from Tom's friend and business associate. how legit"


Friend yes, business associate no. And you have 2 posts and no credibility, having clearly created this account purely to troll on this topic.

This is my point - these PUAhate weirdos are just twisted. You convince yourselves only looks-money-status matters, as a way of avoiding doing anything to improve your lot in life. Then someone comes along and proves he can bang hot girls without looks-money-status and your world starts to implode and suddenly there's the threatening realisation that you're wrong and your failure with girls is YOUR OWN FAULT FOR NOT MAKING AN EFFORT.

Rather than accept that, you latch onto the slightest hint of evidence - no matter how spurious - that such a guy is fake, so you can retain your Only-LMS-Matters ego-investment. The relentlessness, anger and duplicity with with such weirdos pursue their hating is driven by the desperate need to avoid taking responsibility for their own shitty situation.

Transparent.

Normally I'm happy to let you all wallow in your own misery. The reason I take exception here is because:

(i) Tom and Andy are legit quality daygamers
(ii) Lots of guys reading this board are beginners and thus a bit fragile getting over the initial brutal learning curve. They are more apt to tolerate your nonsense and let themselves get discouraged than the intermediate guys who've already racked up some lays and know from personal experience to ignore clowns like PUAhate. You're actively trying to drag down men who've proven themselves to be better than you. Crabs in a barrel.

As far as I am concerned - Krauser's words settle it so far.

Tom may have gone the easy road here for some unknown reason or it's all one hell of a set-up by a PUAHate bugger who by the way already set up a fake KrauserPUA account and posted his drivel on Rationalmale as well. He was the one who seemingly leaked the info on the Daygame.com forum.

In any case I still intend to by Tom's book, though it would be nice if he responded with full honesty and disclosure. The RSD freeze-out did not go so well.

What can you do - we all do shit from time to time - admit it, do some new real infields, post it and forget the story.

[Pinocchio]

Isn't this video really old when tom was first trying to make a name for himself? I can see why he did it, pay some camera man to follow you around for two weeks to get a good kiss close or just pay some girl £100. I know what I would choose.

[Menace]

The fundamental problem with using daygame (or game in general) teaching as a business, is that after a certain point there is nothing more to learn from an instructor. That point can come pretty quickly, assuming you actually put in the effort and do several hundred approaches. But it is hard. I suspect many guys want to just pay for new products over and over again because it fools them into thinking they're "doing" daygame. It's way easier than going out and getting rejected. There is no way Krauser would be friends with someone who's a fraud, so I chalk this up to bs between former business partners turned competitors.

This should also be a reminder that you have to go out in the real world and interact with people. I've noticed a distinct uptick in internet forum drama in the gaming community.

[bojangles]

(12-11-2014 07:57 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

Krauser responded to the allegations on the Daygame.com forum.:

Quote:

"Lol coming from Tom's friend and business associate. how legit"


Friend yes, business associate no. And you have 2 posts and no credibility, having clearly created this account purely to troll on this topic.

This is my point - these PUAhate weirdos are just twisted. You convince yourselves only looks-money-status matters, as a way of avoiding doing anything to improve your lot in life. Then someone comes along and proves he can bang hot girls without looks-money-status and your world starts to implode and suddenly there's the threatening realisation that you're wrong and your failure with girls is YOUR OWN FAULT FOR NOT MAKING AN EFFORT.

Rather than accept that, you latch onto the slightest hint of evidence - no matter how spurious - that such a guy is fake, so you can retain your Only-LMS-Matters ego-investment. The relentlessness, anger and duplicity with with such weirdos pursue their hating is driven by the desperate need to avoid taking responsibility for their own shitty situation.

Transparent.

Normally I'm happy to let you all wallow in your own misery. The reason I take exception here is because:

(i) Tom and Andy are legit quality daygamers
(ii) Lots of guys reading this board are beginners and thus a bit fragile getting over the initial brutal learning curve. They are more apt to tolerate your nonsense and let themselves get discouraged than the intermediate guys who've already racked up some lays and know from personal experience to ignore clowns like PUAhate. You're actively trying to drag down men who've proven themselves to be better than you. Crabs in a barrel.

As far as I am concerned - Krauser's words settle it so far.

Tom may have gone the easy road here for some unknown reason or it's all one hell of a set-up by a PUAHate bugger who by the way already set up a fake KrauserPUA account and posted his drivel on Rationalmale as well. He was the one who seemingly leaked the info on the Daygame.com forum.

In any case I still intend to by Tom's book, though it would be nice if he responded with full honesty and disclosure. The RSD freeze-out did not go so well.

What can you do - we all do shit from time to time - admit it, do some new real infields, post it and forget the story.

where is this?>

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(12-11-2014 08:58 AM)Menace Wrote:  

The fundamental problem with using daygame (or game in general) teaching as a business, is that after a certain point there is nothing more to learn from an instructor. That point can come pretty quickly, assuming you actually put in the effort and do several hundred approaches. But it is hard. I suspect many guys want to just pay for new products over and over again because it fools them into thinking they're "doing" daygame. It's way easier than going out and getting rejected. There is no way Krauser would be friends with someone who's a fraud, so I chalk this up to bs between former business partners turned competitors.

This should also be a reminder that you have to go out in the real world and interact with people. I've noticed a distinct uptick in internet forum drama in the gaming community.

Yes and no - bootcamps are limited and so is the basic Game level that can be taught. However some instructors manage to put out superior new content that helps you to reach even higher levels in your Game yourself. But of course very few guys can do that as it is similar to advances in science which are brought by a very tiny elite and the rest of the lot are usually re-testing or teaching.

Of course most won't be going out and doing approaches to become really good at it. I introduced Game to a few friends - most accepted the Red Pill but only the ones who did approaches before picked up the Game teachings for real and apply them fervently now.

On the Daygame.com forum - pain in the ass to search for - http://daygame.com/cafe/index.html?action...sts;u=6931

[Kieran]

That text exchange seems a little too convenient to be true to me, so I'm going to stay on the fence.

If it does turn out to be true though, I don't see how it can be excused. Instructors prepared to fake videos are insulting their clients and should be frozen out of this community.

Edit, just opened the link and saw the rest of the evidence. Seems pretty damning.

[HighSpeed_LowDrag]

The sheer extent of the commercialization of game that's come about is something that's really starting to become distasteful to me, and I suspect, to others as well.

There are dozens upon dozens of companies and instructors each offering to help you do the same thing - "GET THE WOMEN THAT YOU WANT" - if you pay x amount of dollars for their products.

Yes, each game producer may have their own pretty-looking flowchart that demonstrates their model for picking up chicks, and they may have their own unique suggestions on how to stop a girl whilst daygaming, but at the end of the day, do all these minute differentiations justify the expensive costs that come with these products? I think that there really isn't that much that separates the material offered by one "producer of game" to the other.

All of these companies are money-making ventures, don't forget. Yes, they may exist to teach men game, but at the end of the day they're there to make their owners profit.

Yet you can go onto the blogs of people like RooshV or Roissy/CH or Rollo Tomassi, and read their blog posts which expound upon the exact same topics, and offer much the same advice, for free or virtually free. (Full disclosure, I have bought the full compendium of RooshV's work, but there's so much value for the money that it's shocking that it's so cheap. It's nowhere near as much of a money-making venture as someone like RSD.) Blogs like those three offer just as much relevant advice on game, but they're not set up to be like the other companies churning out products that don't seem to be truly that much different from their competitors. They focus on more than that - on topics like travel and living abroad, or Western cultural collapse, or the illogic and ridiculousness of feminism and SJWism. This focus on purity of thought from commercialism, I think, is what truly separates us (the RedPill-sphere?) from the PUA industry.

Guys that are coming to learn game are people that haven't had success at all in an area of their life which is one of the most important - if not the most important - for a man to get right. They've been beaten down and told by society that if they don't get it naturally at first, then they're just doomed, that they should just accept their lot in life. I can understand that game companies and instructors want to receive compensation for their time and efforts, but it seems really distasteful to be making money off of other men's misfortunes. Especially when the stuff they can read for free on the Internet is just as relevant and useful to them.

What do you guys think?

HSLD

[Krauser]

I'm deliberately holding off on giving my opinion on this until Tom has given his response. More generally, I think PUAhaters are petty losers who haven't the slightest scruples about lying and cheating to attack somebody's reputation. In this case the troll who posted the initial "actress" post set up "krauserpua" accounts on both Sluthate and Daygame.com forums to try to blame me for the accusations.

This is the same guy who constantly trolls the London Seduction Society and was caught faking negative reviews of Steve Jabba. He hasn't the slightest integrity or credibility. However, like I said, regarding this specific allegation against Tom I'm holding my tongue a little while longer.

[Pinocchio]

Tom put his reply up
http://www.tomtorero.com/

[Simeon_Strangelight]

Quote:

My answer to the biggest question first. Yes, the girl in the kiss close video (Francesca Cherruault) is an actress who I both know and hired. I met her and her friend in a Notting Hill bar three years ago. On two occassions she filmed interactions with me - the first time in Earls Court (video never used) and the second time on Oxford Street (the kiss close video) more than two years ago. The guys I was daygaming with at the time had no idea that I had done this as I kept it from them.

Why I staged these two infields is the second question. Ego, competition and the need to prove myself with Youtube hits. I remember after I filmed Jon Matrix's kiss close in Oslo (very much real, like all other infields by him and the rest of my daygame.com colleagues) I felt like I too had to capture a street kiss on film to raise my profile. I'd kissed girls on the street before and after this incident, but was frustrated that we'd never filmed it. Vainglory and egoism got the better of me, which I'm very sorry for.

My two videos with Francesca are the only time I've ever staged an infield. None of my other infields (or from those associated with me) are staged. For this massive error I sincerely apologise to both followers of my work and the friends that I kept it from. I take full responsibility for my mistake and understand people's disappointment and mistrust. Daygame is a real, beautiful thing that most certainly works and changes guy's lives for the better. I hope my error doesn't dissuade guys from trying it or believing in its power.

I want to thank those who've sent me messages of support in the last week despite the drama. It has been tough not reacting rashly to the many false accusations about me on the internet aside from the kiss close story, especially as some of my most vocal critics have a vested interest in the defamation.

Once again I apologise to my followers, friends and wings who I've let down because of the kiss close video. It is my job now to pick up the pieces.

Tom Torero
12th December 2014

Men and their stupid comparative ego - we are so hardwired to compete in the most idiotic things - who has the biggest dick, the most heavy or stinky shit...

He will likely come out fine, because his stuff & abilities are real anyway - it will cost him though.

Male ego:

[bojangles]

It will cost him. Btw I do bootcamps guys

[Pride male]

Next thing they will be telling us wrestling is fake. Oh wait...

[Krusyos]

Damn, that sucks. Tom was a great inspiration to me, showing me that even an ugly ass man like him can pull tail. From what you guys are saying, it seems as though he is a legit player, just got a bit lazy.

[Kaizen]

It takes seconds to lose your reputation as the saying goes

That's too bad, he's clearly legit in my mind.

His poor judgment to stage a video will cost him some, time will tell just how much

As an aside agree with menace once you get the basic framework of daygame hitting the streets is the next step. Its easy to fall into the trap that the next product book etc will give you the skills

[Kieran]

A complete insult to his customers and also his colleagues, who's reputations could also be damaged by their association with him. I'm sure it will cost him customers and book sales, and rightly so.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

Nick Krauser weighed in on the issue with a post:

http://krauserpua.com/2014/12/12/tom-tor...iss-close/

Quote:

I predict there will be two types of reaction to this news based upon whether the recipient has met Tom personally and seen him in action, or hasn’t.

People Who Don’t Know Tom – Earnest students of Game will quite reasonably conclude he’s a fraud, that this video expose is damning evidence, and that he can thus be thrown in the dustbin alongside Mehow, Vince Kelvin, David DeAngelo and others who have been either caught faking or otherwise never proved their bona fides. I can’t say I blame them. It’s important to be skeptical of people’s claims and to demand evidence. It’s reasonable to give special weight to those incidents which suggest dishonesty. In addition to genuine students of the Game, the PUAhater crowd will also seize on this as further evidence that Game Doesn’t Work. Tom was an average-looking man banging hot girls (something which can’t happen according to the Looks-Money-Status crowd) so the fact he faked one video will immediately lead them to include every single one of his successes was faked. There’s not much to say about that. PUAhater’s are mentally ill. Let them wallow in their own misery.

People Who Do Know Tom – What’s interesting to me is that over the years Tom has taught hundreds of students, and hundreds more have used the day game model he created with me (and others). Literally hundreds of people have seen Tom live in-set with their own eyes in unfakeable interactions. Hundreds have been live in-set themselves implementing advice they got from Tom and then seeing the effect it has on the girls. These people have enough direct evidence of their own eyes that (i) Tom’s daygame skills are for real and (ii) the London Daygame Model works, that the fact Tom got caught red-handed faking one infield doesn’t really matter. Yes, it was a bad thing to do. But no, it doesn’t shake their confidence in the model or Tom’s abilities as a coach.

What’s my opinion?

Tom shouldn’t have done this because it was dishonest. However, it’s small potatoes. I remember watching the video back in 2012 and thinking “pretty weak set, no big deal” and never thinking of it again. It’ll all blow over and we’ll all continue hitting the streets, banging hot girls, and tweaking the model. I’m certainly not going to distance myself from Tom to “protect my reputation”. He’s my friend and I’ve seen with my own eyes that his daygame skills are for real.

Tom is an elite-level daygamer, possibly more skilled than I am. You’re well within your rights to cut him off your “guy to listen to” list after this video expose but if you do so you’ll be missing out.

That's quite some endorsement. Tom is one of the guys who most in the PUAHATe crowd would take a look at and think: "No way in fucking hell will he be able to bang hot young chicks. He must be a fraud."

It was a fucking stupid thing to do that will cost him dearly, but hopefully he will recover because some of his stuff is simply unique and he is still expanding his arsenal.

[Pinocchio]

Tom will recover, his content is a cut above