[Rang off the Pipe]

(11-22-2014 08:18 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Pure hysteria and baseless accusations to get rid of the fraternities. How pathetic.

There is also a financial incentive for Universities to get rid of frats; most frats sit on valuable campus land, and these universities want the land for their own purposes.

At the same time, though; fraternity alumni are also significant donors to schools in a number of cases. Some universities would be whacked by eliminating their Greek system, since we all know how administrators love money flowing into their school.

[Ryre]

(11-23-2014 08:51 AM)portofmanteau Wrote:  

Cutting in here. I went to UVA. [...]

People have jumped on individual details in the article. 3 hours, broken shards digging into her back, etc. I've had my car window smashed while I was driving and I and 4 other people in the car were completely showered in glass, we still drove home another 30 minutes, it took a while to pick all the tiny shards of glass out of hair/clothes etc. but none of us had to go to the hospital. Most tables are made of tempered glass, it's the same thing (but different from laminated glass used in the windshield), and shatters differently from an old window in a house, which leaves giant nasty shards which will cut arteries.

Good point about the table, I did not know that.

Question: as a freshman at UVA, would she have had a roommate? Almost all freshman and sophomores at my college living in the dorms did. If she did, her roommate should be able to say whether she had injuries. (Even if the table shards weren't sharp, the story still talks about her leaving the party in a bloody dress and being punched in the face.)

[iamdegaussed]

Pretty amazing that they've used this allegation to suspend all frats.

[xpatplayer]

(11-22-2014 08:18 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Pure hysteria and baseless accusations to get rid of the fraternities. How pathetic.

There is also a financial incentive for Universities to get rid of frats; most frats sit on valuable campus land, and these universities want the land for their own purposes.

I agree with the campaign to get rid of fraternities. SJWs hate them because they are traditional and breed masculinity. I have seen shy and scared men pledge fraternities and end up being socially popular two years later. SJWs can't stand this.

I disagree with the financial incentive. Alumni of fraternities donate more money to the University than any other group combined. Most Frat Rows would have been closed down already if not for the protests of the Universities' biggest benefactors.

The article is a steaming pile of bullshit because men in fraternities are from educated, civilized, rich families. AKA the group with the lowest crime-per-capita rate. Most fraternity members would shudder at the thought of even hitting a woman for pledgeship activities, let alone raping one.

The article reeks of 80s fraternity stereotypes. And the characters in her story read like a bunch of catty women with penises and rapist tendencies.

[scorpion]

http://www.rollingstone.com/contributor/...bin-erdely

This is the author of this garbage piece of "journalism". Just look at some of her other stories:

"Trans Women and Danger: More Tales From the Front Lines"

"Understanding the Science of Transgender"

"The Transgender Crucible"

"The Six-year Old Who Wants to Change Gender"

"One Town's War on Gay Teens"

This woman is obviously a deranged SJW and a man hater with an agenda to push.

[xpatplayer]

(11-23-2014 01:37 PM)xpatplayer Wrote:  

I agree with the campaign to get rid of fraternities.

I meant I agree there is a campaign. Fraternities are great for helping young men develop themselves, gf getting rid if them would give us worse leaders.

[portofmanteau]

(11-23-2014 11:24 AM)Ryre Wrote:  

Good point about the table, I did not know that.

Question: as a freshman at UVA, would she have had a roommate? Almost all freshman and sophomores at my college living in the dorms did. If she did, her roommate should be able to say whether she had injuries. (Even if the table shards weren't sharp, the story still talks about her leaving the party in a bloody dress and being punched in the face.)

In all likelihood she would have a roommate, although one of my exes my first year lived in a single room in the old dorms. But again, depending on activities etc., her roommate wouldn't necessarily be home, and once she's showered and changed and everything, if she and her roommate don't talk much it would never come up. The people that did meet up with her - Cindy and Alex or whoever - would be able to vouch for her story.

Also don't see why people think it's so unbelievable this would happen at a frat party and that she'd be able to leave without anyone noticing. At 3am there would be music blasting, anyone not fucking in one of the rooms upstairs would be grinding on the dance floor or fucking obliterated drunk, and it would be dark. It's a party. I once stole two full kegs from a frat party at around midnight and took them back to house because it was too late to buy beer and we were cheap. That is definitely a lot harder than just leaving drunk or having sex in a room there.

[Sp5]

Whether the rape happened or not, banning all fraternities is an outrageous imposition on freedom of assembly and due process.

They say the police are now investigating, let's see where that goes.

The assertion that police and prosecutors don't pursue rape charges is one of the more outrageous lies of this current hysteria. If anything, they err on the side of liars and false charges. If a "victim" can't step up and go to the police, she is full of shit.

[Ryre]

(11-23-2014 04:16 PM)portofmanteau Wrote:  

Also don't see why people think it's so unbelievable this would happen at a frat party and that she'd be able to leave without anyone noticing. At 3am there would be music blasting, anyone not fucking in one of the rooms upstairs would be grinding on the dance floor or fucking obliterated drunk, and it would be dark. It's a party. I once stole two full kegs from a frat party at around midnight and took them back to house because it was too late to buy beer and we were cheap. That is definitely a lot harder than just leaving drunk or having sex in a room there.

Oh, I don't doubt that the guys could find an isolated room to do this, or that she could slip out past a bunch of drunk people at 3:00 a.m. But I was picturing her covered in serious cuts, needing stitches, etc. And then somehow managing to live in her dorm, go to class, work, etc. with no one noticing. I believe the story does reference a bloody dress. Not clear if the blood was from cuts or from vaginal injury. I was interpolating from the broken glass table and the agonizing three-hour ordeal that she had serious cuts. If you are right about the type of glass used in a table, maybe she didn't.

[portofmanteau]

(11-23-2014 04:06 PM)xpatplayer Wrote:  

I meant I agree there is a campaign. Fraternities are great for helping young men develop themselves, gf getting rid if them would give us worse leaders.

Fraternities at UVA are a cash cow and are not going anywhere. The changes will likely mostly be superficial, the goal is to get the national heat and bad PR off their backs and keep the donation train rolling. On campus the frats definitely did have the reputation of being rape factories, which was more or less acknowledged, and reactions like those of the "Cindy" character are real - if that changes, that would be great, but the goal of the administration is definitely not to shut down the frats permanently.

In the example I mentioned before about the blackface plantation party (am I the only one that thinks that is completely insane and should not be happening in the 21st century?), the frat was suspended for a week, as I recall.

[scorpion]

(11-23-2014 04:24 PM)portofmanteau Wrote:  

On campus the frats definitely did have the reputation of being rape factories, which was more or less acknowledged

Bullshit. Fraternities live and die by their reputations on campus, specifically their reputations with sororities and girls in general. If a frat had a legitimate reputation for being a "rape factory" it would shrivel up and die within a year or two. No girls would want to hang out there, and no guys would want to pledge a house that couldn't attract girls.

Your perception is clearly that of a hater outside the Greek system. Your concern trolling over blackface parties (which are totally irrelevant to this conversation) further identifies you as someone who has an axe to grind against the fraternities at UVA. It's usually guys like you who didn't get bids who sit around talking shit about frats and spreading rumors that they are "rape factories".

[Seth_Rose]

I started a dupe thread, as scorpion pointed out:

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-42671.html

While the suspension isn't going to last, it definitely sets a precedent for universities to suspend greek life at their will.

[portofmanteau]

(11-23-2014 04:59 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Bullshit. Fraternities live and die by their reputations on campus, specifically their reputations with sororities and girls in general. If a frat had a legitimate reputation for being a "rape factory" it would shrivel up and die within a year or two. No girls would want to hang out there, and no guys would want to pledge a house that couldn't attract girls.

Your perception is clearly that of a hater outside the Greek system. Your concern trolling over blackface parties (which are totally irrelevant to this conversation) further identifies you as someone who has an axe to grind against the fraternities at UVA. It's usually guys like you who didn't get bids who sit around talking shit about frats and spreading rumors that they are "rape factories".

Haha. I went to UVA. Did you? Where'd you rush? It sounds like I hurt your feelings.

I prefaced the blackface party mention with - this is not about rape. It's about fraternities existing in their own world and being completely tone-deaf. A blackface party is obviously violent but it is provocative as shit and basically looking for a fight and representative of actual "entitlement", especially in the south.

The "Cindy" attitude is real, there are plenty of girls that keep going to those houses anyway. If people think the parties are cool, it's an elite house, and has a good network, it doesn't really matter. They'll likely be shamed for a while now but I bet in 2-3 years it'll be business as usual. People kept going to the plantation party house too.

[portofmanteau]

(11-23-2014 05:16 PM)Seth_Rose Wrote:  

I started a dupe thread, as scorpion pointed out:

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-42671.html

While the suspension isn't going to last, it definitely sets a precedent for universities to suspend greek life at their will.

I mentioned before, universities have the right to suspend charter at their discretion. This isn't a "precedent", it's basic public relations.

[scorpion]

(11-23-2014 05:17 PM)portofmanteau Wrote:  

Haha. I went to UVA. Did you? Where'd you rush? It sounds like I hurt your feelings.

I prefaced the blackface party mention with - this is not about rape. It's about fraternities existing in their own world and being completely tone-deaf. A blackface party is obviously violent but it is provocative as shit and basically looking for a fight and representative of actual "entitlement", especially in the south.

The "Cindy" attitude is real, there are plenty of girls that keep going to those houses anyway. If people think the parties are cool, it's an elite house, and has a good network, it doesn't really matter. They'll likely be shamed for a while now but I bet in 2-3 years it'll be business as usual. People kept going to the plantation party house too.

No, I didn't go there. But I went to a similar school with a similar Greek system, and I recognize your hater attitude and shit talking for what it is: jealousy. You see the frats having a great time with the best looking women and you're mad you didn't get a bid to join them. So you become a hater, seething with jealousy, shit talking frats any chance you get, while desperately trying to scoop up the pussy scraps that fall of their table. It's been a long time since I was in college, so it's not like I'm personally invested in fraternities at all at this point. But your attitude sure does ring familiar. I remember guys like you very well.

Are you black or hispanic by chance? That would explain your hostility toward the white frats and your inexplicable focus on blackface parties as being somehow relevant to a rape discussion.

Finally, your admission that girls still love to attend frat parties and functions despite the frats holding reputations as, you claim, "rape factories", betrays the fact that these reputations apparently only exist in the mind of you and other haters. Women, especially in this day and age, are not going to hang around any men who are legitimately associated with rape. More likely, this reputation is simply the shit talk of you and others like you, who are excluded from the Greek system and who have no idea of what is actually going on inside.

[Jevioso]

If an accuser = victim;
And accused = perpetrator/predator;
Then why even have a trial?

[portofmanteau]

(11-23-2014 05:39 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Are you black or hispanic by chance?

You get personal fast.

(11-23-2014 05:39 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Finally, your admission that girls still love to attend frat parties and functions despite the frats holding reputations as, you claim, "rape factories", betrays the fact that these reputations apparently only exist in the mind of you and other haters. Women, especially in this day and age, are not going to hang around any men who are legitimately associated with rape. More likely, this reputation is simply the shit talk of you and others like you, who are excluded from the Greek system and who have no idea of what is actually going on inside.

Girls mostly just go along with what their friends think. They are basically uncreative, so if the thing they know to do is to go to frat parties, that's what they do. I'm telling you what the reputation of a lot of frats was at UVA. Not the black frats, the jewish frat, or the druggy frat, but phi kappa psi. Was your school different? Did you rush a frat that had a reputation as a rape frat, which you was false? Or are you just here for the ad hominem?

[Jevioso]

(11-23-2014 06:01 PM)portofmanteau Wrote:  

(11-23-2014 05:39 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Are you black or hispanic by chance?

You get personal fast.

(11-23-2014 05:39 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Finally, your admission that girls still love to attend frat parties and functions despite the frats holding reputations as, you claim, "rape factories", betrays the fact that these reputations apparently only exist in the mind of you and other haters. Women, especially in this day and age, are not going to hang around any men who are legitimately associated with rape. More likely, this reputation is simply the shit talk of you and others like you, who are excluded from the Greek system and who have no idea of what is actually going on inside.

Girls mostly just go along with what their friends think. They are basically uncreative, so if the thing they know to do is to go to frat parties, that's what they do. I'm telling you what the reputation of a lot of frats was at UVA. Not the black frats, the jewish frat, or the druggy frat, but phi kappa psi. Was your school different? Did you rush a frat that had a reputation as a rape frat, which you was false? Or are you just here for the ad hominem?

Hehe, apparently everyone has a little misogyny in them.

[scorpion]

I just think it's funny that you've been here since 2011 and have only 200 posts, but come out swinging in this thread with multiple posts talking shit about fraternities, specifically calling them rape factories. Very obvious that you've got an axe to grind against them.

If you're a minority guy then I actually understand, because it's inarguable that Southern white fraternity culture is actively exclusive toward non-whites. That's pretty much a whole other conversation, though, and has nothing to do with rape.

And no, my fraternity did not have a reputation for rape, nor did any other fraternity on campus. If one did, it would have been a fatal or near-fatal blow to that house. That's why I have serious doubts when you say that it was "commonly known" that multiple UVA frats were "rape factories". Commonly known among who? People who sit around hating? Or the people who actually join and participate in that scene?

Remember how easily white knights and betas like to hate on players and red pill guys. In my experience it's the exact same dynamic with guys who hate on fraternities.

[Comte De St. Germain]

The main problem I see here is the gangbang. 7 on 1 are you fucking kidding me? How many of you guys would do 7 on 1? Maybe 5 on 1 or even 3 on 1? A lot of guys can barely stomache 2 on 1. I highly doubt 7 frat guys could fuck the same girl for 3 hours taking turns. Unless they were hardcore gay.

[Agastya]

(11-23-2014 06:19 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Remember how easily white knights and betas like to hate on players and red pill guys. In my experience it's the exact same dynamic with guys who hate on fraternities.

Not necessarily. I'm a club athlete at my school, and while we all have friends in fraternities, none of us really have much respect for the Greek system. One fraternity makes its pledges crawl up a staircase littered with broken glass, take a mouthful of disgusting toilet water, crawl back down, and spit it into a bonfire. They repeat this process until the bonfire is put out. By the end of it, everyone has lacerations up and down their arms, and many develop septic infections from exposing their wounds to the bathroom floors. Another ritual involves pouring ketchup and mustard on pledges while screaming abuse at them, after which the actives piss all over the walls and force the pledges to clean up.

Every time one of my friends has pledged one of the major fraternities, I've seen them do these things. And, to be honest, what's the point? They made a bunch of friends, yeah, and they got slightly more ass than the rest of us...but they also willingly drank toilet water because someone else told them to. I've definitely met great people who were members of the Greek system, but I don't really feel like it was the Greek system itself that made them great people. It depends on the frat, of course--I certainly don't support persecuting Greek life wholesale, as many seem to want--but by and large, I don't respect the way in which Greek life degrades people. Most of the hate the system gets comes from that.

[scorpion]

(11-23-2014 06:39 PM)Agastya Wrote:  

(11-23-2014 06:19 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Remember how easily white knights and betas like to hate on players and red pill guys. In my experience it's the exact same dynamic with guys who hate on fraternities.

Not necessarily. I'm a club athlete at my school, and while we all have friends in fraternities, none of us really have much respect for the Greek system. One fraternity makes its pledges crawl up a staircase littered with broken glass, take a mouthful of disgusting toilet water, crawl back down, and spit it into a bonfire. They repeat this process until the bonfire is put out. By the end of it, everyone has lacerations up and down their arms, and many develop septic infections from exposing their wounds to the bathroom floors. Another ritual involves pouring ketchup and mustard on pledges while screaming abuse at them, after which the actives piss all over the walls and force the pledges to clean up.

Every time one of my friends has pledged one of the major fraternities, I've seen them do these things. And, to be honest, what's the point? They made a bunch of friends, yeah, and they got slightly more ass than the rest of us...but they also willingly drank toilet water because someone else told them to. I've definitely met great people who were members of the Greek system, but I don't really feel like it was the Greek system itself that made them great people. It depends on the frat, of course--I certainly don't support persecuting Greek life wholesale, as many seem to want--but by and large, I don't respect the way in which Greek life degrades people. Most of the hate the system gets comes from that.

Have you or anyone you know actually witnessed that bolded part? Or is this, like so much else regarding frats, just hearsay?

Because you are aware that in today's litigious society, that sort of activity can and would get the fraternity sued and shut down? All it would take was a single pledge coming forward with pictures of his injuries. I've seen firsthand houses shut down and chapters get pulled simply for guys getting pledges too drunk, so it's very difficult for me to believe that frats are getting away with torturing their pledges with broken glass and having them walking around campus with infected wounds.

This is also why I find it difficult to believe the gang rape story. Fraternities have ZERO friends these days outside of their own alumni. The schools hate them, the media hate them, their insurance companies hate them, even their own national organizations often hate them. It's very common for the national governing body of a frat to pull an individual chapter's charter at the first sign of legal trouble. Nationals would rather throw a chapter under the bus than deal with the legal and PR issues of defending them against serious allegations, even if those allegations are completely baseless, as is often the case. It's so incredibly easy to get a fraternity shut down these days, which is why it's impossible to believe this frat was going around gang raping girls repeatedly and getting away with it. If there was even a hint of truth to these allegations, or the most basic bit of actual evidence, these guys would have been exposed almost immediately and would be facing criminal penalties.

[runsonmagic]

portofmanteau, thanks for posting. I figured we had at least on alumn on these boards.

The idea that real rape occurs at frat parties doesn't surprise me. What concerns me is the potential blowback that could occur on men who are not guilty, and that the remedy might be worse than the sickness.

Right now these charges are being pursued through the mob justice rather than criminal justice. I've come to realize that for social justice types this is justice, because they don't believe in objective truth. Whatever the mob thinks is true.

Signs from the recent protest at UVA showed typical "rape culture" and "all white men are the problem" accusations. These statements do more harm then good, and I suspect are the reason many on this board question the story presented in Rolling Stone.

I think it's possible to both accept the idea that there are rapes on campus, and reject the idea that the celibate math nerd in the library is just as guilty as the rapists because "patriarchy." I don't think because some men mistreat women, that every man needs to ask permission at every step of intimacy ("may I touch your breast?") at the threat of imprisonment.

What amazes me on this thread is how feminism has turned off men who naturally want to protect women. If we hadn't been told stare-rape, drunk-rape, and regret-rape are just as bad as gang-rape, we'd give the gang-rape accusations more weight.

At this point the accusations aren't going away, and other women are reporting similar experiences. Assume for the sake of argument, some of them are true. What then? How would you say the university should handle this? How would you handle it if you were a part of that college or community? Feminists are doing a good job bending this to their narrative. Got a better one?

[runsonmagic]

I gotta admit, this sign made me lol.

[The Lizard of Oz]

This story is an outrageous piece of fiction -- it literally reads like contemporary female fiction. It has the same air of emptiness, hysteria, and complete lack of connection to reality.

"Three hours of rape" my ass. F'ing crazy lies. This is one thing about females lying, they don't have the least sense of orders of magnitude. They'll just write with a straight face that this UVA freshman was "brutally gang raped for 3 hours" inside this frat house as if there is some possible world in which that could happen.

These people are trying to destroy any and all institutions of masculinity in the US, so the fraternities are an obvious target. They realize that they won't be able to shut them down permanently, but the goal is dampen their spirit and take all the joy and all remaining freedom out of them. I was already noting a post by Truth Teller in the forum lounge about how they had white knights lecturing their frat about "1 out of 5" and all this garbage. That is the goal -- to tighten the ideological noose so that there is no escape, anywhere, at any time.

portfofmanteau is, very obviously, a hater and a slanderer. Anyone who can naturally use the expression "tone-deaf" about a party is someone who I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw them.