[WD-40]

(11-20-2014 12:25 AM)Matt Forney Wrote:  

(11-20-2014 12:14 AM)WD-40 Wrote:  

(11-19-2014 11:27 PM)Matt Forney Wrote:  

Revoking the citizenship of the children of illegal aliens is the best of a bunch of bad choices.

It's some seriously fucked up crazy shit talk and you know it full well.

Let's boil it down again: revoking people's citizenship for crimes they didn't commit- this is really what you are talking about here. It's sick shit.

What's your solution? Do we deport illegal aliens and leave their kids to grow up in foster homes or at the mercy of Social Services? Do we grant amnesty to everyone hoping that that will solve the problem (the logic that Reagan used when he signed amnesty into law, and shocker, it didn't work).

Seriously, I'd like an answer that doesn't consist of girlish emoting.

Nice try with the girlish emoting. You can do better.

My points are:

- Minors who have been validly granted American citizenship under current law should not be deported under any circumstances, nor their legal guardians, even if they are illegal aliens.
- Illegal aliens without US citizen children or whose US citizen children have reached the age of majority should continue to be deported by DHS.
- I am not still certain whether changing US citizenship law to restrict jus soli is advisable, but any such change should under no circumstances apply retroactively.

[Grange]

(11-20-2014 12:18 AM)Matt Forney Wrote:  

A lot of people have been pushing the argument that "Latinos will assimilate just like the Irish and Italians did!" and "America has taken in immigrants before and things turned out just fine!"

Allow me to advance a radical counter-argument: maybe the Irish, Italian and other immigrant groups shouldn't have been allowed to come here either.

While I find this hard to swallow, at least it's consistent.

Quote:

Not only that, as Jim Goad wrote in The Redneck Manifesto, corporations have been using immigrants to drive down wages and dilute the power of organized labor since the 19th century. During the Industrial Revolution, coal-mining companies, railroads and other corporations promoted immigration as a way to break the power of unions and ensure themselves a never-ending supply of scabs who would work for next to nothing.

Labor is a commodity, and like all commodities, it's subject to the law of supply and demand. By flooding the country with immigrants (workers), the price of labor (wages) goes down and vice versa. Labor laws and minimum wages can mitigate this somewhat, but there's no escaping the basic laws of economics. This is why in places where labor is scarce, such as North Dakota and Alaska, wages are higher than the national average. This is why unions such as the AFL-CIO used to viciously oppose immigration.

Unions such as the AFL-CIO do far more harm than good anyway, and the sooner their death grip on the Democratic Party is broken, the better we'll all be. But more fundamentally, supply and demand goes both ways. 1) Immigrants also increase demand. 2) Having immigrants do the low-skilled work lets consumers get those things more cheaply, freeing up money to be spent on other things that more skilled native workers can supply (unless we're positing that people will stop wanting stuff, which amounts to changing the model of human behavior). Automating tasks is the same phenomenon. Surely we're better off having machines do most of the factory work now than if some sap was cutting and grinding out nails by hand. This is a long-run argument, of course, as a guy getting laid off today has to deal with that today, but societies are built and maintained by their long run policies.

Quote:

I imagine most of the pro-amnesty/pro-immigrant folks here are of a leftist bent, meaning you support unions, workers' rights and a higher minimum wage. Agitating for workers' rights while supporting adding 20 million workers to the labor pool is like trying to heal a broken leg by shooting yourself in the head. Every amnesty/immigration proponent is a tool for increased corporate power and wealth inequality, and most of them don't even know it.

N/A

Quote:

The Ellis Island mythology is just that: a lie. Your "legal" immigrant ancestors came here for exactly one reason: to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. Immigration restriction in the 1920's was part of what made the "American Dream" and the middle-class prosperity of the post-World War II era possible. If corporations get their way (and thanks to the idiocy of the modern left, they will), your children will be just as poor and living in just as much squalor as the ethnics of the Gilded Age.

Viva la Estados Unidos de America!

I thought they came to make themselves richer? Since half of Americans fit into the category of having immigrant ancestors who came through during that period, it's hard to argue that the other half would be better off without them.

[Alpharius]

(11-20-2014 12:33 AM)Fighting888 Wrote:  

I really question why, in the midst of a painful recession with high unemployment, we should bring in large numbers of foreign guest workers to compete against American workers.

They're willing to work harder for less pay. Capitalism at work.

[Tuthmosis]

(11-20-2014 12:33 AM)Fighting888 Wrote:  

I really question why, in the midst of a painful recession with high unemployment, we should bring in large numbers of foreign guest workers to compete against American workers.

Because the ultra-rich and corporations--that wholly own Congress, Obama, and all their henchmen--run this country and want to finish the job of drowning the middle class in the bathtub. They put on some Kabuki theatre about fighting things out, but they all want a large, quiet, controllable, slave-like underclass that just keeps the roads paved, the hedges trimmed, and the Starbucks coffee flowing--it doesn't matter what language they speak. Whether you're a grateful Mexican immigrant or an Literature-degree graduate saddled with $80,000 in student loans at 19% interest doesn't make a difference to them.

This is the go-fuck-yourself politics of the multi-national corporation. Then their media outlets--which they also control--lather people up about the ethnic aspects of the issue so you stay distracted and not come after the real villains.

Take the real "red pill," not the one the TV or corporate-owned internet site is selling you.

[DChambers]

(11-20-2014 12:25 AM)Matt Forney Wrote:  

(11-20-2014 12:14 AM)WD-40 Wrote:  

(11-19-2014 11:27 PM)Matt Forney Wrote:  

Revoking the citizenship of the children of illegal aliens is the best of a bunch of bad choices.

It's some seriously fucked up crazy shit talk and you know it full well.

Let's boil it down again: revoking people's citizenship for crimes they didn't commit- this is really what you are talking about here. It's sick shit.

What's your solution? Do we deport illegal aliens and leave their kids to grow up in foster homes or at the mercy of Social Services? Do we grant amnesty to everyone hoping that that will solve the problem (the logic that Reagan used when he signed amnesty into law, and shocker, it didn't work).

Seriously, I'd like an answer that doesn't consist of girlish emoting.

It would require a new law, such a law is unconstitutional as no one may be prosecuted via an ex post facto law. To do so you would have to amend the Constitution to allow for such prosecutions or making citizens in their situations open to prosecutions. You might theoretically be able to pass an amendment that would strip them of their citizenship by its own accord. Barring that, you would be destroying America in the process of trying to protect her.

I might support an amendment of such nature, barring that tough we could only legally deport the adults.

[L M McCoy]

*makes phone call*

*machine picks up*

"Hello I-"

*machine speaks in Spanish*

*15 minutes go by*

"Press 2 if you would like to hear this message in English"

Can we at least get the immigrants with an education if no then how about no criminal history?

[Samseau]

I don't think people are seeing the big picture here.

5 million today get a free pass. How many more tens of millions will want to make the journey to America now?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America

About 600 Million is the population right now... if only 5% decide to come, that's another 30-40 million. Yet income inequality is some of the worst in Latin America. It is entirely reasonable to see close to 10% of Latin America come for free food and housing here in America. That's around 80 million more.

1. This is overpopulation. There's no way America's infrastructure, or natural resources can handle this. There's already a major drought in California.

2. There aren't enough jobs or taxes to pay for all of these people.

3. Get ready to see violence return in a big way. With this many people, life is going to get cheap again. No one is going to enforce the laws just like it is in Latin American cities. Kill or be killed coming to an American city near you.

[Alpharius]

(11-20-2014 12:54 AM)L M McCoy Wrote:  

Can we at least get the immigrants with an education if no then how about no criminal history?

A quick glance at the Travel section would show learning a new language isn't the easy process it's cracked up to be...

[Tuthmosis]

(11-20-2014 12:39 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

Because the ultra-rich and corporations--that wholly own Congress, Obama, and all their henchmen--run this country and want to finish the job of drowning the middle class in the bathtub. They put on some Kabuki theatre about fighting things out, but they all want a large, quiet, controllable, slave-like underclass that just keeps the roads paved, the hedges trimmed, and the Starbucks coffee flowing--it doesn't matter what language they speak. Whether you're a grateful Mexican immigrant or an Literature-degree graduate saddled with $80,000 in student loans at 19% interest doesn't make a difference to them.

This is the go-fuck-yourself politics of the multi-national corporation. Then their media outlets--which they also control--lather people up about the ethnic aspects of the issue so you stay distracted and not come after the real villains.

Take the real "red pill," not the one the TV or corporate-owned internet site is selling you.

I could take this further to explain the SJW phenomenon.

Today they're a bunch of wimps and degenerate losers that I would put in camps if I had any kind of power to do so. But in generations past, they could have been agitating for solutions to real problems--like the fact that a college degree is worthless or that no one in their 20s can afford to live without a shitload of roommates anymore. Instead, they're keeping them busy cannibalizing other would-be difference makers for not using the right word to describe the sick bastard who cut off his dick and is pretending that makes him a woman now.

It's a brilliant update to the classic divide and conquer. Give the masses the means to get drunk on their own narcissistic self-importance and other baser impulses--fancy electronics on credit, social "networking," and high-speed wireless internet--and stand back.

[Travesty]

^^ If I moved to China for a much better paying business opportunity and I planned to spend the rest of my life there don't you think learning Mandarin or whatever dialect I needed to learn to absolute fluency would be my first order of business?

Why does it matter how hard it is? There are a million resources out there that are free.

[WD-40]

(11-20-2014 12:47 AM)DChambers Wrote:  

It would require a new law, such a law is unconstitutional as no one may be prosecuted via an ex post facto law. To do so you would have to amend the Constitution to allow for such prosecutions or making citizens in their situations open to prosecutions. You might theoretically be able to pass an amendment that would strip them of their citizenship by its own accord. Barring that, you would be destroying America in the process of trying to protect her.

You aren't really going to be able to prosecute children of illegal aliens that gained citizenship via jus soli for anything ex post facto, because they didn't commit a prosecutable immigration offense- considering that while their parents may have entered the US illegally, the children did not.

The only way to strip birthright citizenship ex post facto is to amend the federal constitution, which is not exactly an easy process. You need a supermajority in both Houses and then the amendment needs to be ratified by the state legislatures of 3/4 of the states.

Furthermore, if such an amendment were to actually be successfully passed, nothing would stop Congress and the state legislatures from passing even more sweeping legislation to retroactively revoke citizenship from other undesirables. Once that ball starts rolling, where does it stop?

[Travesty]

I wasn't West Coast's biggest fan but he made some points.

Get your money here and get out.

Too many high IQ people here are too easily distracted it is beyond rationalizing. Overtaxed, lowered wages, cut benefits, 2 weeks vacation if lucky, fat wife....

Oh but I have Facebook, Reddit, and new video games I'm good!

Fuck these losers.

I put every penny extra I have in the stock market until I start a business. The corporate investor class is having a massive party without lifting a finger.

[TheWastelander]

The Democrats are gonna buy all these people's votes and still no one in government will address the root problem causing a lot of this mess: the drug war.

A substantial amount of poor Mexicans that will flood here after this amnesty, hoping for another, are going to find the drug trade just as lucrative on this side of the border as it is down there. They're going to join gangs, start gangs, engage in violence and get caught up in the complete travesty that is our criminal justice system.

The prison industry will profit greatly, more cops and judges will be hired, police will become even more militarized, and politicians will push for more 'tough on crime' laws that will further erode our liberty. At the same time they'll caw about needing more gun control because of the violence and take guns away from people who didn't do anything.

More and more the conclusion I find myself coming to is that our government is run by evil people from top to bottom.

All they want is to buy off the Mexicans already here and let millions more in so they can do it again later.

This is the ultimate "fuck you" to the American people, who are slowly waking up but not fast enough.

They are telling us that soon enough they won't need our votes anymore to get what they want, because they'll have millions of new voters who owe them.

[Akula]

(11-20-2014 01:09 AM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

I wasn't West Coast's biggest fan but he made some points.

Get your money here and get out.

Too many high IQ people here are too easily distracted it is beyond rationalizing. Overtaxed, lowered wages, cut benefits, 2 weeks vacation if lucky, fat wife....

Oh but I have Facebook, Reddit, and new video games I'm good!

Fuck these losers.

I put every penny extra I have in the stock market until I start a business. The corporate investor class is having a massive party without lifting a finger.

Amen brotha.

RE living in the US yeah just make some cash and look to get out (or never get married here at least). Consider yourself one of the smart ones if you figure it out. On top of all the other shit going on here with immigration, taxes, wage pressures, outsourcing etc. you've also got to deal with divorce rape as a man even if you do somehow make bank. It's a minefield. Some guy I remotely know just got divorced after 22 years of marriage and 2 kids. Wife cheated on him. He owes her 7 years of alimony now (kids are out of the house). if it had been 25 years of marriage he would have had to pay for life. i have several other friends who got raped in divorce. What a wonderful democracy!!

On the thread topic, it's probably unfixable but stopping the illegals from entering, securing the border and simply enforcing the rule of law would be a good start - however, it's (still) politically untenable at the end of the day and I don't think the conservatives that want to do it have enough power to get it done. I truly believe that deep down the core of the Republican party mostly wants the flow of cheap labor (illegals + H1Bs or whatever) to continue, as much as the Dems want it to bring in more votes (by buying them off with benefits). As Tuth pointed out, the corporations and ultra-wealthy own the political system via their lobbying efforts, so they effectively control what happens and cheap labor and passive citizens are good for big business.

[L M McCoy]

Anyone else notice Obama announced this immigration amnesty on the very Mexican holiday that celebrates Mexican revolution?

[Tex Pro]

I got to say, I did not expect Obama to unilaterally do this on immigration. At least not on this scale.

This is some Ramesses II level shit.

To those surprised by this, I have only this observation to add: America long ago stopped being a Republic and has since become a full-blown Empire, so any idea that the constitution or congress or the will of the people matters is laughably naïve.

Long live the Empire.

[Tuthmosis]

^^That reminds me of an (unrelated) image I made a while back.

   

[Truck'n]

(11-19-2014 06:47 PM)bacon Wrote:  

How can he legally bypass congress with this? I realize that government is a joke and all and selectively enforce laws when they want but cant Republicans sue or bring impeachment proceedings? This is obviously unconstitutional and something MOST Americans don't want.

I keep asking this very question.

Who cares if Obama gives an executive order? What if the border patrol just told him to, "fuck off"? and get that shit passed in Congress before they acted?

[L M McCoy]

(11-20-2014 01:42 AM)Truckn Wrote:  

(11-19-2014 06:47 PM)bacon Wrote:  

How can he legally bypass congress with this? I realize that government is a joke and all and selectively enforce laws when they want but cant Republicans sue or bring impeachment proceedings? This is obviously unconstitutional and something MOST Americans don't want.

I keep asking this very question.

Who cares if Obama gives an executive order? What if the border patrol just told him to, "fuck off"? and get that shit passed in Congress before they acted?

Black America would be in an uproar and we'd have a Ferguson scenario on a mass scale, I think

[Alpharius]

(11-20-2014 01:42 AM)Truckn Wrote:  

(11-19-2014 06:47 PM)bacon Wrote:  

How can he legally bypass congress with this? I realize that government is a joke and all and selectively enforce laws when they want but cant Republicans sue or bring impeachment proceedings? This is obviously unconstitutional and something MOST Americans don't want.

I keep asking this very question.

Who cares if Obama gives an executive order? What if the border patrol just told him to, "fuck off"? and get that shit passed in Congress before they acted?

Keep in mind that most Americans can barely spell "immigration", much less understand the wide and varied implications of any action/inaction various branches of government could take.

[Easy E]

[Feisbook Control]

I have two thoughts on this.

The first is that the very people who will get completely screwed by this -- low wage workers of all colours, but especially blacks, and (white) tech workers -- will be those most fervently defending this. Why? Because the rank and file on the right oppose it. Everyone will line up tribally, and so the left will line up against their own interests just because. As Tuthmosis pointed out, it's a brilliant divide and conquer strategy.

The second thought is that I wonder who this benefits, besides the political and business interests within the US. Matt Forney (I think it was) mentioned that China and others must be laughing their arses off as the US repeatedly hits the self-destruct button. I'd also be very interested to see, over the next five to ten years, the US emigration numbers. My guess is that Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Chile, Uruguay and maybe some others will be huge beneficiaries of all of this as the skilled/entrepreneurial middle class (whites) of the US engage in the ultimate (white) flight. Some of these countries (e.g. Chile) are actively trying to poach the cream of the US through incentive programmes for entrepreneurs. Likewise, I would not be surprised at all to see much of Silicon Valley decamp to Singapore within a generation. Of course, there will still be a Silicon Valley, but as it gets increasingly buddy-buddy with big government and attracts a lot of people looking for what they perceive to be a/the safe life in the US, it will become increasingly sclerotic and the real action and innovation will occur somewhere else.

[Deluge]

(11-20-2014 02:41 AM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

Matt Forney (I think it was) mentioned that China and others must be laughing their arses off as the US repeatedly hits the self-destruct button.

China is doing the same now, they've started bringing in workers from Africa to manufacturing cities like Guangzhou to try and boost their shrinking workforce.

[Veloce]

(11-20-2014 12:39 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(11-20-2014 12:33 AM)Fighting888 Wrote:  

I really question why, in the midst of a painful recession with high unemployment, we should bring in large numbers of foreign guest workers to compete against American workers.

Because the ultra-rich and corporations--that wholly own Congress, Obama, and all their henchmen--run this country and want to finish the job of drowning the middle class in the bathtub. They put on some Kabuki theatre about fighting things out, but they all want a large, quiet, controllable, slave-like underclass that just keeps the roads paved, the hedges trimmed, and the Starbucks coffee flowing--it doesn't matter what language they speak. Whether you're a grateful Mexican immigrant or an Literature-degree graduate saddled with $80,000 in student loans at 19% interest doesn't make a difference to them.

This is the go-fuck-yourself politics of the multi-national corporation. Then their media outlets--which they also control--lather people up about the ethnic aspects of the issue so you stay distracted and not come after the real villains.

Take the real "red pill," not the one the TV or corporate-owned internet site is selling you.

Goddamn this hits home. I want to print this out and show this to so many people that need to read this.

It's amazing how many people in daily life you hear squabbling about the most inane and trivial bullshit.

People are addicted to drama; they thrive on it. And they're seemingly unaware that 95%+ of their daily interactions that provide their RDA of drama is intentional. I see it everywhere around me. Divide and conquer.

Oh but the Apple watch is coming out, everyone rejoice. The timing of these things is amazing.

The past 10 years have been extremely poignant. I can remember being 23 like it was yesterday, and it was a pivotal year. It was the year I got my first cell phone. My new bitch girlfriend insisted I get one so she could reach me at all times. She was my second serious girlfriend and my first exposure to a girl that had been around the block, to put it lightly. She was my window into modern American women. (My first gf was an honest to god small town sweetheart, before cell phones, before social media)

So I can look back over the past 10 years and PRECISELY map individual milestones in the downfall. If I make it to a ripe old age, I will still recall the decade between 23 and 33 as the accelerated demise of a culture, and it is precisely due to this:

The more we rely on purchased devices to fulfill our need to connect as humans, the more doomed we are. The things that were supposed to make the world a smaller place have made us more isolated than ever. It is one puzzle piece to a larger dystopian future, of which this executive order is a key part.

To those saying that Mexicans will assimilate...serious offer: let me take you on a tour of this fair city and see how well that's gone. I'm all about the brown folks and I hit up taco trucks at least 3 times a week. Sometimes I even like the music. But making the claim that they'll assimilate is a joke, and that goes for all ethnic groups and nationalities. Why else would there be a Koreatown, Thai Town, Filipinotown (there's no actual Filipinos there, they're in Panorama City) Garden Grove/Westminster (Little Saigon), Little Tokyo, San Gabriel Valley (largest population of Chinese outside of China). Go to any of these places and it's not hard at all to find businesses that are completely in Chinese, or Vietnamese, and English isn't spoken. That's assimilation?

[Akula]

(11-20-2014 02:41 AM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

Likewise, I would not be surprised at all to see much of Silicon Valley decamp to Singapore within a generation. Of course, there will still be a Silicon Valley, but as it gets increasingly buddy-buddy with big government and attracts a lot of people looking for what they perceive to be a/the safe life in the US, it will become increasingly sclerotic and the real action and innovation will occur somewhere else.

I was having the exact same thoughts about the eventual demise of Silicon Valley a few weeks ago when thinking about what a mess the state of California is and how they are driving people & businesses out of there. But I'm wondering if the critical mass is still just so strong there that the innovation will go on for many more years, even decades. Also the state is just so beautiful and livable that rich people will just bite the bullet and pay 10-20% more in taxes and be subject to police state measures and the hordes of illegals and ghetto neighborhoods/bad areas just to live there.

I guess another part of the puzzle is the fact that there just isn't a viable competitor these days (lol Skolkovo in Russia). Also, Singapore is expensive as hell and somewhat stifling law-wise too (and pretty small, only so many people can live there).

Anyway, if California is any indication of where the rest of the country is heading re mass illegal and legal immigration (and I think it is) it's gonna suck for almost everyone except the uber-wealthy (and the poor on benefits).