[The Lizard of Oz]

(10-05-2014 04:17 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

Whats your data to back up these assertions?

What "assertions" do you disagree with or believe require "data"?

I think it's uncontroversial to observe that your muscles, joints and the like get tighter when it's cold. It's also uncontroversial that most people get less sunlight in the winter months and have lower endogenous D production. And a lot of people get very stressed around the holidays; stress (from any cause) makes different parts of your body tighter and more tense and is associated with greater risk of injury. I would think all of these are common sense and obvious observations.

In addition, I've seen from personal experience that both myself and people I know have gotten more injuries in the cold months, and that these are slower to heal once they occur.

That is why I'm making what seems to me a common sense suggestion that guys who lift (especially ones who are not very young) might benefit from an approach where they go a little easier in the fall and winter (while still training hard) than they do in the spring and summer. I don't feel that such a suggestion requires any "data" or citations.

[Vaun]

(10-05-2014 04:30 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(10-05-2014 04:17 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

Whats your data to back up these assertions?

What "assertions" do you disagree with or believe require "data"?

I think it's uncontroversial to observe that your muscles, joints and the like get tighter when it's cold. It's also uncontroversial that most people get less sunlight in the winter months and have lower endogenous D production. And a lot of people get very stressed around the holidays; stress (from any cause) makes different parts of your body tighter and more tense and is associated with greater risk of injury. I would think all of these are common sense and obvious observations.

In addition, I've seen from personal experience that both myself and people I know have gotten more injuries in the cold months, and that these are slower to heal once they occur.

That is why I'm making what seems to me a common sense suggestion that guys who lift (especially ones who are not very young) might benefit from an approach where they go a little easier in the fall and winter (while still training hard) than they do in the spring and summer. I don't feel that such a suggestion requires any "data" or citations.

I think these are all assertions. There is no hard data here. Show me one study.

This is internet knowledge to me. I can't really recommend anyone with any athletic or fitness goals to follow this advice.

[Hades]

(10-05-2014 03:53 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

Why Australia man? I live in the US.

Oh OK. I figured "Lizard of Oz", well Oz is Australia, tons of lizards there so it makes sense. I live in Minnesota where winter is eight months out of the year so going easy during the winter makes no sense, might as well not bother leaving the house or fucking too because you'll throw out your back and break your cock due to the weather. This thread is like care trolling.

I'm 100% with Vaun on this one, he's making a better case than I could.

[The Lizard of Oz]

Vaun, there are many studies demonstrating that muscle performance degrades with lower temperatures. Cold muscles behave similarly to fatigued muscles. I thought this was obvious enough, but if you want links, have at it:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/52536...t=Abstract

Quote:

Acta Physiol Scand. 1979 Sep;107(1):33-7.
Influence of muscle temperature on maximal muscle strength and power output in human skeletal muscles.
Bergh U, Ekblom B.
Abstract

The influence of muscle temperature ™ on maximal muscle strength, power output, jumping, and sprinting performance was evaluated in four male subjects. In one of the subjects the electromyogram (EMG) was recorded from M. vastus lateralis, M. biceps femoris, and M. semitendinosus. Tm ranged from 30.0 degrees C to 39 degrees C. Maximal dynamic strength, power output, jumping, and sprinting performance were positively related to Tm. The changes were in the same order of magnitude for all these parameters (4-6% x degrees C-1) Maximal isometric strength decreased by 2% x degrees C-1 with decreasing Tm. The force-velocity relationship was shifted to the left at subnormal Tm. Thus in short term exercises, such as jumping and sprinting, performance is reduced at low Tm and enhanced at Tm above normal, primarily as a result of a variation in maximal dynamic strength.

http://jap.physiology.org/content/73/6/2457

Quote:

Muscle temperature, contractile speed, and motoneuron firing rates during human voluntary contractions
B. Bigland-Ritchie , C. K. Thomas , C. L. Rice , J. V. Howarth , J. J. Woods
Journal of Applied PhysiologyPublished 1 December 1992Vol. 73no. 6, 2457-2461

Article
Info
PDF

Abstract

A study was made of motoneuron firing rates and mechanical contractile parameters during maximum voluntary contraction of human hand muscles. A comparison of muscles that had been fatigued after a 60-s maximum voluntary contraction (MVC) with muscles that were cooled by approximately 5 degrees C showed that the contractile properties, in particular the rates of contraction and relaxation, were similarly affected in both conditions.

http://jap.physiology.org/content/92/1/354

Quote:

Combined effect of repetitive work and cold on muscle function and fatigue
Juha Oksa , Michel B. Ducharme , Hannu Rintamäki
Journal of Applied PhysiologyPublished 1 January 2002Vol. 92no. 1, 354-361

Article
Figures & Data
Info
PDF

Abstract

This study compared the effect of repetitive work in thermoneutral and cold conditions on forearm muscle electromyogram (EMG) and fatigue. We hypothesize that cold and repetitive work together cause higher EMG activity and fatigue than repetitive work only, thus creating a higher risk for overuse injuries. Eight men performed six 20-min work bouts at 25°C (W-25) and at 5°C while exposed to systemic (C-5) and local cooling (LC-5). The work was wrist flexion-extension exercise at 10% maximal voluntary contraction. The EMG activity of the forearm flexors and extensors was higher during C-5 (31 and 30%, respectively) and LC-5 (25 and 28%, respectively) than during W-25 (P < 0.05). On the basis of fatigue index (calculated from changes in maximal flexor force and flexor EMG activity), the fatigue in the forearm flexors at the end of W-25 was 15%. The corresponding values at the end of C-5 and LC-5 were 37% (P < 0.05 in relation to W-25) and 20%, respectively. Thus repetitive work in the cold causes higher EMG activity and fatigue than repetitive work in thermoneutral conditions.

Here is a reasonable layman's explanation:

http://www.mythoracicpark.com/articles/1...rticle.htm

Quote:

Tis the season, the aches and pains of winter.
By
Dr. Thomas Patavino D.C., MS, F.I.A.M.A.

It's the most wonderful time of the year. The Holidays are upon us and everyone is gearing up for the festive season. Time to pull out the mistletoe, trim the trees and prepare for Santa. Most of us can still find the spirit of the season, although it has changed dramatically since we were kids. The excitement and anticipation sometimes get lost in all the mayhem of the holidays. Although some seem to skate through winter stress free, the majority of us will feel some type of stress throughout the winter months. The cold weather, last minute holiday shopping, crowds at the malls, and the most dreaded of all….bills.

Winter seems to be the season we feel the most aches and pains. The cold weather decreases blood flow to the muscles, so they instantly tighten up with the chill of the blustery wind. Those tightened muscles become susceptible to injury. For starters, a tight, cold muscle shortens its length. This reduces our range of motion. Normal motions like walking up the stairs or reaching overhead are now much more difficult and noticeable to perform in the cold weather. It doesn't take a lot of motion or weight to injure a shortened cold muscle. Tying a shoe or picking up a purse or bag of groceries can strain a muscle.

A strained muscle, or what we commonly call a “pulled muscle” occurs when a shortened muscle is lengthened beyond its comfort zone. This is usually caused by an activity such as picking up an object, falling or slipping. When this occurs, some of the tiny muscle fibers are torn and ligaments and tendons are stretched. A variety of symptoms appear with this type of injury. Pain is probably the most noticeable. Those tiny tears in the muscle lead to inflammation, swelling, redness and the stimulation of pain receptors. Muscle spasm is also very common with sprain/strain injuries. Involuntary twitching and contractions occur. Sometimes the spasm can be so powerful, the muscle shortens to the point where it won't relax. A good example of this is when the back muscles lock up on someone and they cannot straighten up. Most of us have known someone who has had “their back go out” and have been incapacitated as a result. Although the back is a common area for strain and spasm, it can occur in any muscle that is overused or misused with activity.

Stress also takes its toll on our bodies. The body acts like a sponge when it comes to stress. We know we aren't supposed to keep things bottled up inside because stress harms the body. It puts strain on the heart, raises blood pressure and is linked to gastrointestinal problems. Without question, winter is probably the most stressful season of the year. Besides being influenced by the cold, muscles are also affected a great deal by stress. Those tiny little muscle fibers get tangled into knots when mental, chemical and physical stress show their ugly faces. Sometimes we don't even realize that we have stress in our lives and are muscles form those knots called trigger points. Trigger points are best described as a knot in the muscle that usually refers pain to other parts of the body. Common examples are knots in the upper shoulder area that cause tension head aches or pain that travels down the arm into the hands.

As stated, strained muscles and trigger points can occur with very little activity due to the impact of the cold weather. If it doesn't take a lot to aggravate the muscles, you can imagine the impact of shoveling snow or slipping on the ice. These are two of the more common culprits that lead to winter injuries. It is natural to feel some soreness after doing activity like shoveling since we don't use those muscles day in and day out. Slipping on the ice, with or without falling, can stretch and strain muscles causing muscle pain and inflammation.

How do we know what is normal soreness versus an injury that should seek treatment? I like to use the 3-day rule. Typically after a large amount of activity, the body should recover in 2 to 3 days. If the pain and soreness goes beyond that, chances are you injured the muscle and you should seek treatment to facilitate the healing process and avoid creating a chronic condition down the road. Typical sprain or strained muscle injuries can take 6 to 8 weeks to heal on average. This can be more or less in some cases, with better results occurring in those who take appropriate measures to ensure proper healing. Trigger points typically respond in 3 to 5 treatments. Restoring proper blood flow to the damaged muscle area is essential to alleviate referred pain. There are a variety of treatment options available and you should consult your health care professional to decide the best course of action.

It is impossible to predict what the winter may bring. Stress, cold and snow are inevitable forces that will undoubtedly enter our lives over the next few months. Dressing in layers will help keep those muscles warm to reduce the risk of injury. Bending at the knees and pushing snow instead of lifting or throwing it will reduce pressure placed on the low back. Sand, salt and kitty litter sprinkled on icy steps and walkways are suggested to decrease the chances of slip and fall injuries. Getting your Christmas shopping done early or buying through catalogs and online reduces holiday stress. In addition, one person should bare the burden of all the preparations involved with holiday gatherings. There is strength in numbers and this will reduce stress and anxiety. Although, one cannot guarantee a smooth sleigh ride through the winter, these suggestions may reduce seasonal aches and pains. Have a happy, safe and healthy holiday.

Again, I thought this stuff was obvious. But maybe not.

As far as lower vitamin D at wintertime, the literature is overwhelming so I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

[The Lizard of Oz]

Hades,

You're just hating on me because you want to do your winter workouts after like six shots of vodka.

To each his own...

[Vaun]

Great, thanks for the back up. I believe the complete the opposite is true. As do most coaches, trauma centers, doctors, etc etc. Sports/exercise related injuries actually go through the roof in spring/summer year in, year out. No one is debating here that you may need to warm up a little more and that you feel more achy in winter, but your posts dont show there are higher injury rates in winter. Why is that? When it turns colder its actually easier to train harder out of doors, as proven continuously by just about every type of athlete. The problem I have with posts like this is that they are blanket statements, and can disuade even confuse people not as knowledgable. I still stand by my statement but provide some thinks here.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16858213
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/healthlib...90,P02787/
Twice as high injury occurance in children during summer months
http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/1/e004165.full
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/envir...e_Heat.htm
http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/sport-...t-injuries

[The Lizard of Oz]

(10-05-2014 05:19 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

Sports/exercise related injuries actually go through the roof in spring/summer year in, year out.

Could that possibly be related to the fact that there is vastly more outdoors physical activity during the spring and summer?

Indeed here is the conclusion of one of the studies you cite:

Quote:

Children being more physically active during the warmer season may likely explain the high rates of injuries at this time of the year.

Also, it is obvious that intense aerobic exercise is made more difficult and riskier by heat. But that is not what we are talking about here.

**********

We could trade studies all night. Ultimately one has to decide for oneself what makes the most sense.

[Hades]

(10-05-2014 05:11 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

Hades,

You're just hating on me because you want to do your winter workouts after like six shots of vodka.

To each his own...

Indeed.

[Vaun]

Quote:

[quote='The Lizard of Oz']
Could that possibly be related to the fact that there is vastly more outdoors physical activity during the spring and summer?
[quote]

No, that doesn't account for heat related illness and over exertion from doing what you seem to purport, taking it easy in the colder months.

What are you trying to say here then? Your headline seems to be in contradiction to the facts that its actually better to work out harder in the colder months.

[The Lizard of Oz]

Vaun,

As I noted earlier in the thread:

Quote:

In any case. My personal experience and that of people I know is that weightlifting injuries are more frequent when it's cold and are also slower to heal. If you can lift very hard through the cold months without getting injured, then of course there is no reason not to. And obviously it's a matter of luck to some extent, and varies a great deal depending on the guy, how old he is, body type etc. So I'm not claiming there is some sort of hard and fast rule. If you can lift very hard and safely at any time, go for it.

Finally. There are very few "facts" when it comes to exercise. But many theories. Experience should be the guide, and if you thrive when lifting harder in the depth of winter, by all means continue to do so.

[Vaun]

(10-05-2014 05:41 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

Vaun,

As I noted earlier in the thread:

Quote:

In any case. My personal experience and that of people I know is that weightlifting injuries are more frequent when it's cold and are also slower to heal. If you can lift very hard through the cold months without getting injured, then of course there is no reason not to. And obviously it's a matter of luck to some extent, and varies a great deal depending on the guy, how old he is, body type etc. So I'm not claiming there is some sort of hard and fast rule. If you can lift very hard and safely at any time, go for it.

Finally. There are very few "facts" when it comes to exercise. But many theories. Experience should be the guide, and if you thrive when lifting harder in the depth of winter, by all means continue to do so.

Well, we disagree. In my personal experience(and that of pretty much any coach in any sport), as a certified trainer, certified ski/snowboard instructor, etc, training in the fall, winter, spring is the time when you go HARD. The absolute most critical time you get outside, get real Vitamin D, go as hard as you can in the gym, make the most gains possible from October - May. Then coasting and resting on your laurels in the summer, or god forbid, actually playing like a kid in the summer(surf, softball, water skiing, hiking, biking, etc) I cancel my gym membership every May.

With no science behind "taking it easy in the winter", other than being a little more achey, I couldn't in good conscience give anyone this advice. Sure, take it easy as you spend more time indoors, eat more, drink more, watch more tv. See how far that will get you.

[Bear Z]

Good post

I also feel different during Winter.. like, not as much energy / can't go as hard. I'm sure lots of others feel this as well

[RexImperator]

I think lifting heavy helped me get through last year's extra brutal winter.

[StrikeBack]

Don't your gyms have heating in winter?

What you're saying makes zero sense. Do you actually know any weightlifter, powerlifter or strongman? They train hard all year round. Many of the top guys are in cold ass places like Scandinavia, Russia and Canada.

Now, while training for strength, you always leave some in the tank and don't go all out full retard every session. That applies regardless of the season or age group.

[Dantes]

I work out harder in the winter. There is less to do and less distraction. I also need it for my sanity.

[tattiemasher]

I've always been more motivated for exercise in colder weather, seeing as I'm from Scotland warm weather just kills me.

[The Lizard of Oz]

StrikeBack, I'm not talking about professional athletes here. I'm talking about regular guys who lift weights to get stronger and stay in shape, particularly guys who are not very young. I think that makes a large fraction of guys who read the forum.

These guys don't have the time or the expertise to follow protocols that are followed by professional powerlifters and the like. They also tend to spend a lot of their time sitting around in front of a screen (those who do not do manual labor, and even some of those who do). In the cold months, they are outside less, move around less and get less sun. When they're out they're exposed to colder temperatures. Their muscles and connective tissues are even tighter than usual. Then they go to the gym and lift excessively hard ("extra hard" like some guys have mentioned, because they lean on weightlifting to dispel their winter blues). Take all these things together, and you have a perfect recipe for a potentially serious injury.

What I'm suggesting is that guys like that take the realities into consideration and take extra care not to get injured in the cold seasons, and one way to do it is to vary your routine and use the winter for consolidation and reinforcement, rather than trying to go all out and risk injury. To me, "consolidation and reinforcement" still means working out harder than 95% of the dudes I see in the gym, so it's all relative.

I don't see why this is so difficult to understand. However, if you feel inspired to go harder than ever in the winter and can do so safely and effectively, then go for it. Every guy has to decide for himself what makes sense in his case.

[StrikeBack]

Fair enough, but I'd say the injury risk difference between cold and warm seasons is negligible if you have a mindset of smashing yourself to failures every set.

Fixing that screwed up mentality is more important.

[Seamus]

Just gave this thread a brief look, but it seems like both sides are right, and are talking past each other here a little bit. I love to use the winter months as a time to pack on some serious musculature. I'm walking around all the time wearing a sweater and jacket anyway, so letting the body fat drift up a few percentage points isn't really a big deal. By the time girls see I don't have a six pack they're in my bed anyway, haha

That said, I've suffered my only serious weightlifting injury during the colder months, and it was in large part due to not having warmed up properly. Dudes from colder countries probably just have that so ingrained already that it's not a big deal to them, whereas guys coming off warmer months might not even think about it.

TLDR
- winter is the perfect time to lift heavy, eat like a horse, and pack on mass
- it's also a time when stretching and warming up is more important than ever, at least in my experience